Tell me about a NFA Trust? [Archive]

DeltaSierra

01-19-12, 15:22

Contact David Goldman of the Apple Law Firm.

This is one of his specialties, and he is the best in the field.

http://www.jacksonvillelawyer.pro/lawyer-attorney-1315473.html

Going with the Apple Law Firm, you are guaranteed to have a top-of-the-line trust, and some of the best legal support should the trust be called into question in the future.

If you go through an attorney that doesn't understand firearms law, you are much more likely to have your trust found invalid by ATF at some point down the road, and therefore would be in possession of illegally transferred/held NFA weapons, which is not a good thing...

Really, it is a no brainer...

DeltaSierra

01-19-12, 15:25

This is the precise reason that you should not use a trust written up by some local lawyer. You want a highly credible firm that specializes in the field, and understands all the ins and outs of the law to write up your trust, or you will end up with a finished document that is not done correctly, and increases your chances of having legal issues later on.

The two 'nfa' trusts I've seen done by 'gun trust' lawyers are just standard boilerplate trusts with a bit of nfa focused wording added. Things regarding posession and usage of NFA weapons, etc.

MrSmitty

01-19-12, 19:05

My recent dealings with a local 'gun trust' lawyer were less than savory. Here is a breakdown of what happened:

- Made appointment with lawyer, waited at his office for an hour and a half and he never showed
- Gave him all of my info at the second scheduled meeting and wrote out a check
- FINALLY received paperwork in mail 5 weeks after check was cashed
- My address and the name I had given him for the trust was wrong
- Called him numerous times and couldn't reach him, finally his secretary told me he was on vacation and I could just retype the pages that had the mistakes :angry:
- Ended up retyping the ENTIRE document because the formatting was shot to hell and the whole thing looked like garbage (font face/size changing in the middle of sentences, etc), and the word 'Settlor' appeared to be auto-corrected on occasion to the word 'Senior'
- Left numerous voicemails with the lawyer to see if he could review it again

That was two weeks ago and he hasn't made any attempt to get back to me. A friend of mine has a suppressor with a trust from the same lawyer without any issues, but I don't really want to roll the dice. At this point I'm not sure what to do with it, I may contact this Apple Law Firm and see if I could email it to them to check out.

Bottom line - don't go with some rinky-dink lawyer that thinks they know what they are doing. It has cost me a lot of time and potentially more money.

If anyone in the Armstrong Co, PA area wants the name of the firm that I received this garbage from, send me a PM.

SpaceWrangler

01-19-12, 19:36

Oof.

In light of the previous post, I'll share how easy it was for me to set up my Trust.

- Called David Goldman at Apple Law Firm (GunTrustLawyer.com) in Jacksonville, FL.

- Had a ten-minute conversation with one of Mr. Goldman's associates, regarding names, location, Co-Trustees, Beneficiaries, etc. I you don't live in Florida, Mr. Goldman's firm contracts with a local-ish attorney in your home state to ensure that your state laws are followed in the execution of the Trust.

- In 3 days I received my Trust in an email from an attorney in my town. I needed a couple changes done to my original chain of Trustees and Beneficiaries, so the Trust was changed to suit my needs. I then printed the emailed Trust and...

- I took my Beneficiary to my bank to sign the Trust and have the signatures witnessed and notarized. Most banks do this at no charge to their customers.

- I took the signed copy of the Trust to my local attorney's office to have it executed. Badda-bing, badda-boom, we're done.

Total cost: $600. No muss, no fuss, no worries with its legality, and I have the peace of mind knowing it's done right by a professional.

MrSmitty

01-19-12, 19:43

:help: I'll trade you experiences haha!

Guess that's what I get for trying to save a buck. Now I just have the DPMS version of a trust...

M4Fundi

01-20-12, 06:12

:help: Now I just have the DPMS version of a trust...

Now that is funny:p

Iraqgunz

01-20-12, 06:55

What's funny is my Quicken Trust has been 100%. No ****stick lawyers screwing me over or anything else.

kartoffel

01-20-12, 07:17

The Apple Law Firm web page has got a case of grocer's apostrophe. (http://www.usingenglish.com/weblog/archives/000067.html) Usually I don't nitpick spelling and grammar, but when it comes to shopping for a lawyer it's hard to justify cutting any slack.

Jacksonville Florida Gun Trust Lawyer works with NFA Trust Lawyer's in most states.

Jmacken37

01-20-12, 15:13

If you're going the trust route to avoid CLEO sign-off, wait a bit and that won't be an issue (as reported by Jeff Zimba from SAR)...

http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=772656

Jake

MrSmitty

01-20-12, 15:50

What's funny is my Quicken Trust has been 100%. No ****stick lawyers screwing me over or anything else.

Did you just use a standard revocable living trust?

justlikeanyoneelse

01-20-12, 16:00

Did you just use a standard revocable living trust?

ditto, i dont think using a trust program yourself was wise

DeltaSierra

01-20-12, 17:02

What's funny is my Quicken Trust has been 100%. No ****stick lawyers screwing me over or anything else.

This right here should be enough to keep anyone else from using a Quicken Trust..

http://www.floridaestateplanninglawyerblog.com/2008/10/using-quicken-to-prepare-a-trust-the-good-the-bad-and-ugly.html

And this:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/11/have-nfa-gun-trusts-or-revocab.html

And this:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/07/gun-store-provides-invalid-tru.html

And this...

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/criminal-penalties/

Javelin

01-20-12, 17:10

What's funny is my Quicken Trust has been 100%. No ****stick lawyers screwing me over or anything else.

I am not a lawyer but.... This 100x over. I had a law professor look over my trust (yep for free) and I didn't tell them it was Quicken Willmaker 2008 version.

And you know what they found???? Nothing! Said it was a great trust and had the "forever clause" that these stupid 'Gun Trust Lawyers" say they need to place in it. QUICKEN ALREADY HAD IT! Hahaha. Stupid Lairs I mean Lawyers. If you really want to know why it is important is that if any part is wrong or whatever that the rest of the trust stays in tact. But these 'gun trust' lawyers, who are basically leeches on society totally justified by them trying to pay off $100K in tuition fees, really are full of crap. These guys need to get a life and stop praying on people but because they keep coming up with these stories people actually believe them. These Gun Trust Lawyers are just sleez if you ask me.

I was told that QuickWillmaker 2008 version has the info needed, was told to be sure that whomever is to get your guns is at least 18 years of age and have no felonies so that they can actually possess them. If you really want to be cheap (as I am) you can buy a used copy of Quicken 2008 on Amazon for like $10... just know that the newer versions of Quicken Willmaker/Estate Planners do not include revocable living trusts. Has to be the Willmaker 2008 version as they stopped placing them in there to make you pay more money. Money Money Money baby. That's the common word of the day I guess.

Javelin

01-20-12, 17:14

This right here should be enough to keep anyone else from using a Quicken Trust..

http://www.floridaestateplanninglawyerblog.com/2008/10/using-quicken-to-prepare-a-trust-the-good-the-bad-and-ugly.html

And this:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/11/have-nfa-gun-trusts-or-revocab.html

And this:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/07/gun-store-provides-invalid-tru.html

And this...

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/criminal-penalties/

I am like shitting myself right now as we speak. I mean those infomercial quality Lawyer testimonials are so scary - I am like really shitting myself.

It's a Revocable Living Trust not some holy grail or symposium covenant.

mrosamilia

01-20-12, 17:18

Waiting on mine as we speak. I have 3 cousins in a firm together. They contacted a Phila firm and worked in conjunction.

Skter505

01-20-12, 20:27

col.1981

01-20-12, 20:55

My problem is every single thing that I have read that says not to do it yourself always ends up at that website. No one else has ever came out and said they were screwed by a quicken trust. The only thing I have found is trusts with no beneficiaries making them invalid. IMO they are all over the internet trying to scare people into paying $600 for their trust. It doesn't help that with them you are paying 2 lawyers, them and whoever they refer you to. If your not comfortable doing it without a lawyer, fine, that's your choice and they probably do a decent trust, but no thanks. I'm not a lawyer so don't listen to me, but they aren't getting my money.

Agreed.

Quicken 2008 user, here. I asked a local 'gun enthusiast' lawyer and he wanted well over 1K, which I thought was cost prohibitive. I would have applied as an individual if there weren't so many extra hoops to jump and having to do it again for each NFA item you get. Trust seemed much more feasible and Quicken was more user friendly than a lawyer visit IMO. This was just my experience, not trying to give advice or legal opinions.

DeltaSierra

01-20-12, 21:30

tb-av

01-20-12, 22:08

Here is a good over view of a trust for VA. Other States will vary.

http://www.nupplegal.com/living-trust/livingtrust-virginia.html

It should also be noted that the ATF allows the executor of an estate to hold NFA items illegally for a short time while they are disbursed properly. This allows the new future owners to have them registered in their name. this is done before probate if there is no trust. Probate time frames are generally defined by locality.
ETA: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html 4th paragraph

So while there may be issues for some people depending on how complex their family, estate and owning NFA items may be. A simple trust, even with NFA items is not that complex.

You could probably learn everything you need to know at a community college course if you really wanted to go all out.

Nothing wrong with paying a lawyer but it's not rocket science either.

You are paying for being taught how to stay out of trouble.

-----------
QUOTE: Gun Trust Lawyer

A typical gun trust is not very expensive and a good amount of the cost is in teaching the individuals how to use the trust correctly. Must of the information that is on the
Internet
in regards to the process and how to use quicken will work to purchase
NFA
items, the only problem is most purchases and a fair number of trusts are invalidly created by making the wrong choices when creating the trust and/or purchase.
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/class-iii-nfa-sponsored-class-3-weapons/1442-copying-nfa-trust.html
5th post down thread.

If you do your homework and understand what it is you are doing AND the NFA rules and regs, you should have no issues.

Javelin

01-20-12, 22:21

Yeah, all these idiots that actually think paperwork might be important...

I guess Evan Nappen, a nationally recognized firearms law attorney is just blowing smoke when he says that Goldman is the guy for getting trusts done correctly....

http://www.evannappen.com/

You mean this guy? The web link that begins with:

TO BUY THE NEW GUN LAW BOOK CLICK HERE.

Welcome to the law firm of Evan F. Nappen Attorney at Law, a Professional Corporation. We are dedicated to protecting our clients' rights.

The Firm's focus is on criminal defense with a concentration in the area of firearms, knives and weapons. however, the Firm is proud to provide a full range of criminal defense services for all crimes and in all courts.

We also provide professional services for Hunting & Fishing Violations, Domestic Violence, Firearm licensing, Expungements (clearing your record), Firearm and Property Seizures, and Forfeitures.

FREE CONSULTATION AVAILABLE

Call (732) 389-8888

21 Throckmorton Ave.
Eatontown, NJ 07724
Fax (732) 389-8744

Yeah he can lick my nut sack for all I give a shit. Another POS trying to sell you something that you don't need. Use caution when someone is spouting FEAR FEAR FEAR and then wants to SELL SELL SELL you something.

:big_boss:

Javelin

01-20-12, 22:24

OK maybe I am being too hard on Lawyers. I guess if you can't tie your own shoes and have trouble reading the label on the back of the milk carton then you probably should go ahead and pay someone to do your gun trust.

In fact forget the trust. If you don't have the common sense to open Quicken Willmaker and figure out the answers to the questions as it asks you then you really have no business on a computer let alone society with a firearm.

DeltaSierra

01-20-12, 22:27

veeklog

01-20-12, 22:45

Javelin

01-20-12, 23:54

My opinion of Mr. Nappen is slightly different than your disrespectful drivel, as Evan is a friend of a friend.

I am stepping out of this particular discussion now before I get banned for my remarks, as I tend to take a dim view of folks on the internet that don't know what they are talking about, leveling baseless accusations against people that they don't know...

He might be a great guy. I am just a little on edge these days about wasting money and am overly critical on the topic as of late with everyone trying to make a dime off of everyone else when you can enable someone to be able to do it themselves and save (sort of like doing oil changes on your own motorcycle... or paying the shop $70). All these 'horror stories' always lead back to a website that tries to sell you something. Kind of a sore spot I have I guess.

Cheers.

tb-av

01-21-12, 07:18

All these 'horror stories' always lead back to a website that tries to sell you something. Kind of a sore spot I have I guess.

That's because that particular lawyer has taken the time to perfect his craft. He has then gone to the trouble of associating himself with competent NFA friendly lawyers in your area. In addition, and I don't know if this is fact or not, he may provide for "follow up questions forever". Some lawyers do. That means if you ever have a question about how to handle any changes they will will guide you.

The trust lawyer is not twisting your arm. It's a very thin market. So the bottom line is, he has figured a way to put food on his table and provide a valuable needed service.

It's not a conspiracy. He's simply good at his job.

brett

01-21-12, 07:45

He might be a great guy. I am just a little on edge these days about wasting money and am overly critical on the topic as of late with everyone trying to make a dime off of everyone else when you can enable someone to be able to do it themselves and save (sort of like doing oil changes on your own motorcycle... or paying the shop $70). All these 'horror stories' always lead back to a website that tries to sell you something. Kind of a sore spot I have I guess.

Cheers.

Imagine people charging money for their services. What tools. My lawn guy is here now. I could do my own yard! I think I'll go outside and cuss him out for charging me money for something I could do myself. Especially since if I screw it up I wont loose 1000's of dollars and possibly go to jail.....:jester:

usmcvet

01-21-12, 18:11

My recent dealings with a local 'gun trust' lawyer were less than savory. Here is a breakdown of what happened:

- Made appointment with lawyer, waited at his office for an hour and a half and he never showed
- Gave him all of my info at the second scheduled meeting and wrote out a check
- FINALLY received paperwork in mail 5 weeks after check was cashed
- My address and the name I had given him for the trust was wrong
- Called him numerous times and couldn't reach him, finally his secretary told me he was on vacation and I could just retype the pages that had the mistakes :angry:

- Ended up retyping the ENTIRE document because the formatting was shot to hell and the whole thing looked like garbage (font face/size changing in the middle of sentences, etc), and the word 'Settlor' appeared to be auto-corrected on occasion to the word 'Senior'
- Left numerous voicemails with the lawyer to see if he could review it again

That was two weeks ago and he hasn't made any attempt to get back to me. A friend of mine has a suppressor with a trust from the same lawyer without any issues, but I don't really want to roll the dice. At this point I'm not sure what to do with it, I may contact this Apple Law Firm and see if I could email it to them to check out.

Bottom line - don't go with some rinky-dink lawyer that thinks they know what they are doing. It has cost me a lot of time and potentially more money.

If anyone in the Armstrong Co, PA area wants the name of the firm that I received this garbage from, send me a PM.

If you have an attorney prepared NFA trust already why not just re type it and add what you need each time you add items.

OP your dealer is right the trust has to have NFA specific language in it. Beyond the language it's a trust.

Disclaimer. I am not a lawyer but have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. :sarcastic:

darr3239

01-21-12, 18:49

What's funny is my Quicken Trust has been 100%. No ****stick lawyers screwing me over or anything else.

Listen to Gunz, and deal with a Class III dealer who knows what the wording should be for your NFA trust. You won't have any problems.

ATF Update: I spoke with the ATF lawyer at the Shot Show two days ago. He stated NFA Trusts are going to be accepted for the long run, with no current thoughts of eliminating them. The only change that they want to make, is for the lead human being on the Trust to go through the normal ATF background checks, just like when they receive paperwork from an individual applying under his own name. There will still be no requirement to go to a local law enforcement agency for the Trust. When asked when that change, which has been forwarded for approval might take place, he didn't think it would happen this year.

I asked another agent about the NFA wait times. He said they only have nine examiners, and they have been under a hiring freeze for about two years, if I remember correctly. He didn't think they would be hiring any time soon. Another member here stated the examiners had boxes of applications sitting in the hallways waiting to be processed. The agent verified that.

Stand by, to stand by.

Javelin

01-21-12, 18:55

Imagine people charging money for their services. What tools. My lawn guy is here now. I could do my own yard! I think I'll go outside and cuss him out for charging me money for something I could do myself. Especially since if I screw it up I wont loose 1000's of dollars and possibly go to jail.....:jester:

Yeah ... lots of people don't mow their own yards. I understand. Maybe someone even pays for having their butt wiped but for the vast majority of us out there we have to do things on our own because that's how it is. I am not advocating that someone takes out their 3rd and 4th rib to give themselves a BJ to avoid having to take a girl out for an evening by any means.

But to be honest no one I know has a silver spoon in their mouth and quite frankly if you can empower someone to do something for themselves then I am of firm belief that you do it. I just do not believe that folks should buy into these horror stories that someone posts online and then tells you to pay them to solve problems that are not really there. Case in point a stupid Trust. Which there is no such thing as an NFA Trust - it is just a Trust - this need a lawyer crap is some BS that these lawyers are putting on their websites to sell you their services which anyone can easily do themselves. No point in scaring people for no reason - that's the part that irks me.

usmcvet

01-21-12, 19:00

If the trust we're a few hundred bucks I would pay a lawyer. Last quote I had was over $1,000.

Hmac

01-21-12, 19:03

Most gun trust lawyers have on their websites somewhere a repost of a blog from Joshua Prince. It goes like this on most of the sites:

Joshua Prince alerted me to a blog post on a developing situation he ran across on Subguns where an individual used Quicken to attempt to create a trust for NFA purposes. Unfortunately the BATFE has now decided that his Quicken trust was invalid and is seeking to seize his MAC-11 and Silencer. He could also be subject to a prison sentence of 10 years and $250,000 in fines.

This is a very unfortunate situation that could cost the individual severely. Its important to remember that just because the ATF approves your transfer, it does not mean that you are legally in possession. This is the second situation involving invalid trusts and the ATF that we have seen this month. It looks like the ATF is beginning to look more closely at the trust documents they are receiving.

If you created a trust for NFA purchases in Quicken, Legal Zoom, or used another generic trust that was not reviewed before buy a lawyer before submitting it to the BATFE, you should contact a NFA trust attorney to review your trust for validity. If you need help finding a local NFA Trust Lawyer we can help. We work with attorneys in more than 40 states including Florida Gun Trust Lawyer®s and South Carolina NFA lawyers to help review and create valid NFA trusts.

AFAIK, this is the only example of Quicken etc gun trusts causing trouble, and it's worth noting that they're all from gun trust attorneys and all from the same source. Furthermore, the referenced post on Subguns (or Silencertalk, depending on which version you read) has been taken down, and there are apparent "questions" as to the validity of the whole scenario. Take it for what it's worth.

Some additional info: http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/04/atf-and-invalid-quicken-trust.html

MrSmitty

01-21-12, 19:12

If you have an attorney prepared NFA trust already why not just re type it and add what you need each time you add items.

I had to retype the entire document anyway to change everything that was wrong and to fix the horrible formatting. He didn't send me an electronic copy :suicide: Although the document seemed to be legally valid, the grade school quality of it and his reluctance to contact me makes me question it...

I contacted David Goldman at Apple Law Firm and he agreed to take a look at the changes I had to make, to make sure it is G2G from a federal/NFA standpoint.

tb-av

01-21-12, 20:39

Here is a very good over view of how one individual has done it.

Very easy to understand. Keep in mind the Trust has a different purpose for different people.

People that can't get CLEO sig. - the Trust affords them a means.

Overall though the Trust is to protect your valuables and pass them along to others when you die without them getting into hot water.

Anyway this may not cover every detail but it makes it pretty clear how things are supposed to work.

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?107341-Taking-the-Trust-route-to-the-NFA

Also quicken 2008 in not the last year that offers a Trust feature. You can get Quicken 2011 with Trust for $22 or current 2012 version with online free access to Trust maker. for $60 or less.

.....Which there is no such thing as an NFA Trust - it is just a Trust -.....

Semantics.. anyone that has -not- grasped that concept probably does indeed need a lawyer or at a minimum some quality education on the subject. Javelin, with all due respect you are looking at this through your personal situation only. To some it will be more about the safety, security and peace of mind of the beneficiary than the money.

Here is one very simple scenario for you. A young soldier want's an NFA item. He has a single Mother ( who knows little and cares even less about guns ) and a 16 year old sister. He flies across the world and gets killed in battle. Now wouldn't it be nice if his mother could have the peace of mind to be able to pick up the phone and call a lawyer to help her settle the estate rather than have to ask the next door neighbor or uncle Jim? The money spent with a lawyer or software is not about the piece of paper and getting to buy a suppressor. It's about being responsible and protecting your family and staying legal.

If the Grantor, Trustee and Beneficiary are all well educated on the subject, then DIY is fine.

If only the Grantor/Primary Trustee is educated on the subject then a lawyer is probably the best route.

mpardun

01-21-12, 20:56

I used Quicken for the template in 2007 and paid a "gun lawyer" to review it (30 mins billable time!)... It was 100% flood to go for Colorado at least.

Also, keep in mind...NFA Trust's are a great way to allow others you know/trust to share in the weapons/items owned by that Trust. Friends, relatives, immediate family. With a Trust, anybody named as a Trustee may legally possess the items listed as property of that Trust...because they are part of the "corporation" that is the registered owner.

Food for thought...

Here is a very good over view of how one individual has done it.

Very easy to understand. Keep in mind the Trust has a different purpose for different people.

People that can't get CLEO sig. - the Trust affords them a means.

Overall though the Trust is to protect your valuables and pass them along to others when you die without them getting into hot water.

Anyway this may not cover every detail but it makes it pretty clear how things are supposed to work.

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?107341-Taking-the-Trust-route-to-the-NFA

Also quicken 2008 in not the last year that offers a Trust feature. You can get Quicken 2011 with Trust for $22 or current 2012 version with online free access to Trust maker. for $60 or less.

Semantics.. anyone that has -not- grasped that concept probably does indeed need a lawyer or at a minimum some quality education on the subject. Javelin, with all due respect you are looking at this through your personal situation only. To some it will be more about the safety, security and peace of mind of the beneficiary than the money.

Here is one very simple scenario for you. A young soldier want's an NFA item. He has a single Mother ( who knows little and cares even less about guns ) and a 16 year old sister. He flies across the world and gets killed in battle. Now wouldn't it be nice if his mother could have the peace of mind to be able to pick up the phone and call a lawyer to help her settle the estate rather than have to ask the next door neighbor or uncle Jim? The money spent with a lawyer or software is not about the piece of paper and getting to buy a suppressor. It's about being responsible and protecting your family and staying legal.

If the Grantor, Trustee and Beneficiary are all well educated on the subject, then DIY is fine.

If only the Grantor/Primary Trustee is educated on the subject then a lawyer is probably the best route.

mpardun

01-21-12, 20:56

I used Quicken for the template in 2007 and paid a "gun lawyer" to review it (30 mins billable time!)... It was 100% good to go for Colorado at least.

Also, keep in mind...NFA Trust's are a great way to allow others you know/trust to share in the weapons/items owned by that Trust. Friends, relatives, immediate family. With a Trust, anybody named as a Trustee may legally possess the items listed as property of that Trust...because they are part of the "corporation" that is the registered owner.

Food for thought...

Here is a very good over view of how one individual has done it.

Very easy to understand. Keep in mind the Trust has a different purpose for different people.

People that can't get CLEO sig. - the Trust affords them a means.

Overall though the Trust is to protect your valuables and pass them along to others when you die without them getting into hot water.

Anyway this may not cover every detail but it makes it pretty clear how things are supposed to work.

http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?107341-Taking-the-Trust-route-to-the-NFA

Also quicken 2008 in not the last year that offers a Trust feature. You can get Quicken 2011 with Trust for $22 or current 2012 version with online free access to Trust maker. for $60 or less.

Semantics.. anyone that has -not- grasped that concept probably does indeed need a lawyer or at a minimum some quality education on the subject. Javelin, with all due respect you are looking at this through your personal situation only. To some it will be more about the safety, security and peace of mind of the beneficiary than the money.

Here is one very simple scenario for you. A young soldier want's an NFA item. He has a single Mother ( who knows little and cares even less about guns ) and a 16 year old sister. He flies across the world and gets killed in battle. Now wouldn't it be nice if his mother could have the peace of mind to be able to pick up the phone and call a lawyer to help her settle the estate rather than have to ask the next door neighbor or uncle Jim? The money spent with a lawyer or software is not about the piece of paper and getting to buy a suppressor. It's about being responsible and protecting your family and staying legal.

If the Grantor, Trustee and Beneficiary are all well educated on the subject, then DIY is fine.

If only the Grantor/Primary Trustee is educated on the subject then a lawyer is probably the best route.

tb-av

01-21-12, 21:28

I used Quicken for the template in 2007 and paid a "gun lawyer" to review it (30 mins billable time!)... It was 100% good to go for Colorado at least.

To be honest, I think that is probably the safest and smartest way to do it as it -forces- you to educate yourself prior to execution. It's like having your test graded so to speak.

...and yes that next point of yours is a good point for the trust while you are alive. It affords a level of enjoyment in NFA items that other methods may not.

blasternank

01-22-12, 13:59

Thanks for all the great responses and differing points of view.

tb-av

01-22-12, 14:08

There is at least one other equally long thread on this subject here somewhere. You may want to search it out as I seem to recall some people touched more on finer details as to why one method might be better for certain situations. Lawyer or DIY.

mpardun

01-23-12, 17:12

...and yes that next point of yours is a good point for the trust while you are alive. It affords a level of enjoyment in NFA items that other methods may not.

My understanding is that NFA Trusts also afford survivability / succession planning in the event that the Grantor/Trustee/Beneficiary (s) die or become incapacitated for a variety of reasons (family or whomever you decide to designate)

MrSmitty

01-23-12, 17:49

My understanding is that NFA Trusts also afford survivability / succession planning in the event that the Grantor/Trustee/Beneficiary (s) die or become incapacitated for a variety of reasons (family or whomever you decide to designate)

And in my case the wording of the trust agreement allows distributions to a minor or incapacitated person directly and regardless of where they live. All of which could cause serious legal issues under the NFA.

This is why I highly suggest doing research on an attorney that you are going to pay for this service. I may already be out the money that I paid him but there's a good chance my Form 1 wouldn't have gone through if I didn't get another opinion. Or even worse, I could have ended up with some serious legal issues down the road.

After David Goldman reviewed my trust agreement he pointed out numerous other fallacies in it and also parts that were taken from a trust agreement that was copyrighted by his own firm years ago.

I've now made numerous attempts to contact this attorney for a refund but he will not call me back. With permission from the moderators, I wouldn't mind posting his firm's name in case others are searching for reviews on him...

usmcvet

01-23-12, 19:55

Items owned individually are also transferable to your heirs.

Iraqgunz

01-23-12, 19:59

Absolutely. I wouldn't want to see anyone else get taken.

And in my case the wording of the trust agreement allows distributions to a minor or incapacitated person directly and regardless of where they live. All of which could cause serious legal issues under the NFA.

This is why I highly suggest doing research on an attorney that you are going to pay for this service. I may already be out the money that I paid him but there's a good chance my Form 1 wouldn't have gone through if I didn't get another opinion. Or even worse, I could have ended up with some serious legal issues down the road.

After David Goldman reviewed my trust agreement he pointed out numerous other fallacies in it and also parts that were taken from a trust agreement that was copyrighted by his own firm years ago.

I've now made numerous attempts to contact this attorney for a refund but he will not call me back. With permission from the moderators, I wouldn't mind posting his firm's name in case others are searching for reviews on him...

StormWerkz

01-23-12, 19:59

I haven't done a form 1 in years and the new chief isn't going to sign.
Just what forms and paperwork needs to be sent in to ATF if doing the trust route? I will pick up a copy of the current quicken willmaker at bestbuy.
I am going to make a .22 suppressor and SBR my Draco.
Thanks

MrSmitty

01-23-12, 20:04

Absolutely. I wouldn't want to see anyone else get taken.

I contacted Greg Bell via pm and he asked me not to post the firm's name publically.

usmcvet

01-23-12, 20:09

How do you copyright a trust? Wouldn't they all be unique?

vinsonr

01-23-12, 21:00

All works are automatically copyrighted in countries that observe the Berne Convention. You don't even actually need the little circle c there anymore in the US.

But, most of these trusts are likely all created from the same boilerplate with custom NFA language thrown in.

Regarding uniqueness - that's the point, you copyright each one saying it's your unique work "so don't use it without paying me $600"

tb-av

01-23-12, 21:02

@mpardun

Think of an "NFA Trust" as Xerox is to copier or Kleenex is to tissue.

Whatever the Trust can do it can do. However it's legally written.

The NFA aspect is like a mask that lays on top that is more strict as to who can participate and what can be done.

If a Trust normally and legally offers 10 options and the NFA mask over rules 3 of them then so be it. You need the Trust written to align with the NFA rules. After that, it can do anything any revocable trust can do and functions similarly.

usmcvet

01-23-12, 21:02

Vinsonr, Thank you.

MrSmitty

01-24-12, 05:08

Vinsonr, tb-ab:

Thank you for those explanations, that makes things a little easier to understand.

tb-av

01-24-12, 08:29

It's a lot easier to understand if you read all the NFA rules and get a full understanding of them. pdf located on ATF web site with additional clarification documents.

Then simply accept the fact that NFA allows an "entity" to own it's.

Then learn about Revocable Trusts which is an "entity".
Read your state code and get a book on Trusts

Combine the two and you are done. Don't try to learn "NFA Trust" alone.

Actually the more I think about it you have three things to learn... and your mask analogy would look like this.

You and your NFA item
Top Layer Mask= State Laws with regards to firearms
Middle Layer Mask= NFA Laws
Bottom Layer = Trust Law

Also if you look at that link I posted above where the guy outlines his Trust and forms. He uses the term MANUFACTURE. This is technically incorrect. He was simply trying to point out that you will be building a weapon from parts.

NFA uses the terms "manufacture" and "make". You can not "manufacture" but you can "make". Form 1 is to "make".

MrSmitty

01-24-12, 08:44

Most of that I had figured out after research before I got involved. That attorney insisted it was a 'gun trust' even though I mentiomed that I was was looking for a revocable living trust with NFA provisions...

The mask analogy is a good way to think of and state laws were something I did not think of initially.

I believe the most important this is to do research on the attorney that you are going to use, any attorney could draft up a revocable living trust agreement but that alone won't take into account items regulated by the NFA. I could see how somebody could end up in serious trouble down the road with an incomplete trust.aybe it is a good thing that the ATF is scrutinizing them a little more...

eodinert

01-24-12, 11:23

The only people who don't like Quicken trusts are people selling trusts.

Javelin

01-24-12, 11:58

The only people who don't like Quicken trusts are people selling trusts.

I agree. But after looking at the trust issue a little more in depth I can see how some enjoy the "NFA" stuff added to the trust explaining the transfer process in detail within the actual trust.

Now again, I am not a lawyer but - I went ahead and placed instructions on how the transfer process is to happen by including the ATF mailing address and phone number with explicit instructions to call the ATF and begin the paperwork process all attached to my Will and Trust that paperclipped together. Also, I informed my beneficiaries of the added paperwork involved so that they know there is more than just taking them home making sure that everyone is in the know.

I wouldn't pay a lawyer a cool grand to include those instructions inside the trust though. It seems rather silly as the instructions on how to transfer are pretty straight forward.

darr3239

01-24-12, 12:23

I agree. But after looking at the trust issue a little more in depth I can see how some enjoy the "NFA" stuff added to the trust explaining the transfer process in detail within the actual trust.

Now again, I am not a lawyer but - I went ahead and placed instructions on how the transfer process is to happen by including the ATF mailing address and phone number with explicit instructions to call the ATF and begin the paperwork process all attached to my Will and Trust that paperclipped together. Also, I informed my beneficiaries of the added paperwork involved so that they know there is more than just taking them home making sure that everyone is in the know.

Am I missing something? If the gun is listed with ATF under the trust name, then isn't everyone listed in the trust legally able to possess the NFA item? What transfer and what paperwork are you talking about?

Javelin

01-24-12, 12:30

Am I missing something? If the gun is listed with ATF under the trust name, then isn't everyone listed in the trust legally able to possess the NFA item? What transfer and what paperwork are you talking about?

*lawyer disclaimer - I'm not one* From what I have read the ATF allows (if the beneficiary chooses) to do the transfer into the individual without paying the $200 tax stamp. The paperwork involved for my particular trust (yours may vary) is that I have the included forms so that they can take my SBRs out of state as they do not live here in TX. That way they know about the stupid travel/permanent movement of NFA items form. In fact I filled it out for them all they need to do is date it with the location they need it and send it in.

No biggie - I just wanted to be sure that everyone knows what needs to happen with the paperwork shuffle.

darr3239

01-24-12, 13:30

*lawyer disclaimer - I'm not one* From what I have read the ATF allows (if the beneficiary chooses) to do the transfer into the individual without paying the $200 tax stamp. The paperwork involved for my particular trust (yours may vary) is that I have the included forms so that they can take my SBRs out of state as they do not live here in TX. That way they know about the stupid travel/permanent movement of NFA items form. In fact I filled it out for them all they need to do is date it with the location they need it and send it in.

No biggie - I just wanted to be sure that everyone knows what needs to happen with the paperwork shuffle.

Even without a trust, the item can be transfered to, let's say, a family member, without the $200 upon the holder's death. No such restrictions, it appears, with the trust.

Everyone should be aware of state to state issues, since there are outright bans in certain states, even though the Feds are more than willing to issue the tax stamp. If someone is going from one NFA legal state to another, and they are listed on the trust as a trustee or grantor, they should be just a legal as if they didn't have a trust and the paperwork was solely in their name.

You may be mixing apples (individual person) with oranges (Trust with multiple trustees or grantors).

Javelin

01-24-12, 14:21

Even without a trust, the item can be transfered to, let's say, a family member, without the $200 upon the holder's death. No such restrictions, it appears, with the trust.

Everyone should be aware of state to state issues, since there are outright bans in certain states, even though the Feds are more than willing to issue the tax stamp. If someone is going from one NFA legal state to another, and they are listed on the trust as a trustee or grantor, they should be just a legal as if they didn't have a trust and the paperwork was solely in their name.

You may be mixing apples (individual person) with oranges (Trust with multiple trustees or grantors).

Naw. I just left instructions in my will. My family lives in NFA friendly territory so no issues with transferring the property. It is just more of a guideline on how to fill out the permanent change of address forms that are required to take them out of the Great State of Texas.

Javelin

01-24-12, 14:24

OH and I also included the name & contact information for the CLIII Dealer here just in case they choose to sell. Good idea for me anyway - cover all the bases at least with my own personal issues. No different than me covering my information of bank accounts, safe combos, etc that I have in my Will - which is separate from my Trust but still attached. I would never personally include that stuff in my Trust anyway as some dealers in my area (SAW, Inc. for example) want a copy of the Trust.

tb-av

01-24-12, 14:44

Are you certain ( letter or FAQ from BATF ) that your beneficiary will not have to pay tax?

I have read two different opinions on that. If it is inherited then there is no tax. Not so for a Trust, is the latest I have read.

darr3239

01-24-12, 16:48

Yep. Can never have enough information right up front.

By the way, I would ditch the will and get a living trust for everything else. It will save your family about a year in settlement time, once you depart.

SteveL

04-12-12, 17:34

Bumping a dormant thread here as my question seems relevant and I haven't been able to find the answer elsewhere.

I have been informed (by someone I prefer not to name) that having multiple trustees or co-trustees listed on an NFA trust can slow down the approval process, possibly by several months. I've seen mention in this thread of trusts with multiple trustees and co-trustees so my question to those of you in this situation is is there any validity to this? Did it slow down the approval process for your items, or were they approved in the usual amount of time?

tsconver

04-12-12, 17:54

Nope 6 months and my trust is a joint trust.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

SteveL

04-12-12, 17:59

Nope 6 months and my trust is a joint trust.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for responding. When you say a joint trust does that mean that it's in your and your wife's name? Are there any other trustees on it?

usmcvet

04-12-12, 18:58

I don't remember now the length but 2 SBRs with a trust. My wife and I and our son are all trustees. I think it was a 3/4 month wait over a year ago.

SteveL

04-12-12, 19:05

I don't remember now the length but 2 SBRs with a trust. My wife and I and our son are all trustees. I think it was a 3/4 month wait over a year ago.

Thanks for answering.

Did you guys do your trusts with Quicken or did you have an attorney do it?

tsconver

04-12-12, 19:09

Nope 6 months and my trust is a joint trust.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Trust is me and my wife. It started as a legalzoom trust and then a lawyer friend helped me modify it with appropriate language to cover firearms and nfa firearms, especially regarding what had to be done if and when they needed to be transferred as a result of our deaths.

Also if you look at the transfer times thread all nfa apps are running 6 mos right now.

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SteveL

04-12-12, 19:14

Trust is me and my wife. It started as a legalzoom trust and then a lawyer friend helped me modify it with appropriate language to cover firearms and nfa firearms, especially regarding what had to be done if and when they needed to be transferred as a result of our deaths.

Also if you look at the transfer times thread all nfa apps are running 6 mos right now.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for the info. It was a surprise to me when this person told me what they did about a delay for co-trustees. I kinda figured if such were the case then I probably would have read about it by now on this forum.

mallowpufft

04-12-12, 20:51

SteveL

04-12-12, 20:55

Man, this has been the most informative thread I've read this week. I've been talking with my local class III dealer about doing an SBR and there's a fellow he recommends who does "NFA" trusts for roughly $300. The lawyer is also a customer of his so I have some confidence in him but after reading this I think I'll try to find a copy of Quicken and do my own and then get him to review it so I can save a few more pennies for an MRP :).

A couple questions for you folks that have trusts:

How hard is it to add items to the trust?
How hard is it to add more trustees to the trust (i.e. my old college roommate is coming to visit for a weekend and I know he'll want to give it a whirl)? Does each trustee need a notarized form of some sort?
About adding minors to it... I know that legally my heirs would be covered for transferring to them tax free (if I read correctly) but can the trust be written in such a way that if something should happen to me before they're legally old enough to posses NFA items that the items will be held until the rugrats are old enough?

I just ordered a new copy of Quicken Willmaker 2008 from Amazon for $6.99 so it's not hard to find.

tsconver

04-12-12, 21:21

Man, this has been the most informative thread I've read this week. I've been talking with my local class III dealer about doing an SBR and there's a fellow he recommends who does "NFA" trusts for roughly $300. The lawyer is also a customer of his so I have some confidence in him but after reading this I think I'll try to find a copy of Quicken and do my own and then get him to review it so I can save a few more pennies for an MRP :).

A couple questions for you folks that have trusts:

How hard is it to add items to the trust?
How hard is it to add more trustees to the trust (i.e. my old college roommate is coming to visit for a weekend and I know he'll want to give it a whirl)? Does each trustee need a notarized form of some sort?
About adding minors to it... I know that legally my heirs would be covered for transferring to them tax free (if I read correctly) but can the trust be written in such a way that if something should happen to me before they're legally old enough to posses NFA items that the items will be held until the rugrats are old enough?

Adding items is easy just add them to Attachment A, A is where my items are, B is my wife's items we added, and C is where joint items we added. No need to resign it to add items.

To add trustees you would have to update the trust and have it renotarized, not really practical. Anyone can shoot the item if you are with them.

I would not add minors as trustees, i think they have to be adults.

As far as holding the items i think that is what the executor of the trust would do until your minor children were old enought to take legal pocession.

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feedramp

04-12-12, 22:06

The Apple Law Firm web page has got a case of grocer's apostrophe. (http://www.usingenglish.com/weblog/archives/000067.html) Usually I don't nitpick spelling and grammar, but when it comes to shopping for a lawyer it's hard to justify cutting any slack.

Thanks, I never knew what that was called but it annoys the heck out of me too.

mallowpufft

04-13-12, 06:10

I just ordered a new copy of Quicken Willmaker 2008 from Amazon for $6.99 so it's not hard to find.

Amazon is wonderful. I'll have to make sure to add that to my next order.

Adding items is easy just add them to Attachment A, A is where my items are, B is my wife's items we added, and C is where joint items we added. No need to resign it to add items.

To add trustees you would have to update the trust and have it renotarized, not really practical. Anyone can shoot the item if you are with them.

I would not add minors as trustees, i think they have to be adults.

As far as holding the items i think that is what the executor of the trust would do until your minor children were old enought to take legal pocession.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks! That's about what I expected for those answers but the ATF's language can be confusing at times and there are a bunch of conflicting opinions when you just use a Google search.

It's best to blame my misspelled words on autocorrect.

usmcvet

04-13-12, 19:24

Thanks for answering.

Did you guys do your trusts with Quicken or did you have an attorney do it?

I used a trust that someone gave me. I just changed it where necessary. My son is a minor and the trust states he becomes a trustee at 18 or 21 I can't remember.

You don't need to add your old college roommate to the trust to hav him shoot with you. Only if they will have control over it w/o you there. :jester:

SteveL

04-13-12, 20:07

I used a trust that someone gave me. I just changed it where necessary. My son is a minor and the trust states he becomes a trustee at 18 or 21 I can't remember.

You don't need to add your old college roommate to the trust to hav him shoot with you. Only if they will have control over it w/o you there. :jester:

Got it. Thanks again. I have Willmaker on the way so I can do one. I think I'm just going to list myself and my wife on it (we don't have any kids) and maybe one other family member just in case.