View Full Version : Stuck on a couple of choices, Spikes or DS Arms
Over the past few months I have been looking at buying another AR. My current AR is a Bushmaster XM15 made back during the assault rifle ban. After doing a good bit of research I have narrowed down my choices to a Spikes or a DS Arms.
Spikes - makes a great rifle, is mil-spec, people love it.
DS Arms - known more for its FN/FAL then its AR-15s.
The thing is, I have a DS Arms FN/FAL. The fit and finish is great, the rifle shoots fantastic, nice groups at 100 yards,,,.
Both the DS Arms and Spikes have a lifetime warranty.
Due to my experience with DS Arms, I would like to continue to give them my business. The thing is, the DS AR-15 does not get as much love from the AR community as a Spikes.
Looking at some of the specs of the DSA AR-15, it may not be fully mil-spec. But then again, does someone need a "fully" mil-spec rifle? The last time I looked, my backyard was not a battlefield.
The rifle is mostly going to be used for target shooting, home and personal protection. I live on the gulf coast in a Hurricane prone area. When a hurricane passes though, I would like to have a rifle I can rely on to protect my home and family. During Hurricane Ike and Rita there were no problems around here. But I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best.
Buying the DS Arms AR-15 could save me around $200. If I buy a Spikes, could I expect $200 in higher quality over the DSA?
I do not mind spending the extra money on a Spikes. My choices are along the lines of I have experience with DS Arms, and no experience with Spikes. If I am happy with a product, its kinda difficult to change brands.
How much money are we talking about, exactly?
You're not going to get a lot of love on this forum for asking about low quality weapons.
One of the problems, is that what do you do when stuff doesn't work and you have to fix them? And the price of shipping stuff back and forth gets expensive, quick.
How much money are we talking about, exactly?
Lets say in the $1,000 price range, plus or minus a little bit.
The Spikes I am looking at is the ST-15 16" Mid-Length LE Carbine
The DS Arms is the DSA ZM4 Mid-Length Carbine
Eurodriver
01-20-12, 09:33
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920
Here ya go!
You're welcome.
For $100 more (and its in stock):
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920MP
Just curious though: You said "After a good bit of research". Where exactly did you do this research?
Ill echo what 120mm said. Avoid both if possible, at that price point you are well within range for a more reputable manufacturer; Colt, BCM. Plus it looks as though there will be some nice offerings post SHOT. But if you are locked between the two, you can toss DSA out the window.
16 Inch 5.56mm NATO Parkerized Chrome Moly 1:9 Twist ZM-4 Mid-Length Fluted Barrel <-- this is disco
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/120mm/M4%20building/DSC03755.jpg
Both the above builds came in under $950. The DD is 14.5" mid length and the BCM BFH is a 16" mid length.
Both are dead nuts reliable and I fully expect them to last a lifetime, subject to normal maintenance.
I regret cheaping out in prior builds/ARs. I do not regret buying quality this time.
colt is absolutely out of the question. I will do my best to never buy a colt product ever again.
Do yall remember when colt stopped selling their products to the public a few years ago? If I was not good enough to buy a colt product then, they do not need my money now.
So it would be better to go with a Spikes then with a DS Arms?
BellyUpFish
01-20-12, 09:41
I'd go with Spikes over DSARMS.
Spikes customer service is light years ahead of DSA.
Dionysusigma
01-20-12, 09:44
In the decision between DS Arms and Spike's, I'll go with what I've always done and choose BCM.
Just curious though: You said "After a good bit of research". Where exactly did you do this research?
Google, ar15.com, m4carbine,,,, various other gun forums.
My first 2 choices were between BCM and Spikes. From what I have read, people rank BCM and Spikes right in with each other.
When 2 products are ranked with each other, I can not justify spending extra money on a given product.
A lot of people suggesting BCM. Once a certain price point is reached, I have to be able to justify the extra cost with extra quality. If I buy a BCM, can I expect BCM to be superior to a Spikes?
Eurodriver
01-20-12, 09:46
colt is absolutely out of the question. I will do my best to never buy a colt product ever again.
Do yall remember when colt stopped selling their products to the public a few years ago? If I was not good enough to buy a colt product then, they do not need my money now.
So it would be better to go with a Spikes then with a DS Arms?
Ahh. You're one of those customers. But you want to buy a Spikes? You know...the same company that increased prices by 200% the night Obama was elected?
Eurodriver
01-20-12, 09:47
Google, ar15.com, m4carbine,,,, various other gun forums.
My first 2 choices were between BCM and Spikes. From what I have read, people rank BCM and Spikes right in with each other.
When 2 products are ranked with each other, I can not justify spending extra money on a given product.
You didn't catch my rhetoric, I figured you had spent time on ar15.com.
You have read wrong. Spikes and BCM are on completely different playing fields.
If I HAD to choose between those two spikes would be my choice. However id look into a bcm or hell even a psa first.
You didn't catch my rhetoric, I figured you had spent time on ar15.com.
No.
When a post from ar15 comes up in google I will read through it. I might have signed up on AR15 4 or 5 years ago, but I do not think I have ever posted there.
You have read wrong. Spikes and BCM are on completely different playing fields.
I looked through the famous M4carbine comparison chart, there did not seem that be that much difference between BCM and spikes.
If yall are suggesting BCM, I am willing to take that into consideration.
Like I said before, BCM and Spikes were two of my first choices. But it seemed that people ranked spikes and BCM together as in being equal quality.
Had Spikes stuff in the past and for the money I consider them to be worth it for the price. I have an LMT now, but am building a few spikes rifles for friends, as they are on tight budgets and trying to sve some money for ammo.
One thing for sure is the finish on Spikes stuff is high up there. The finish on my LMT is more along the lines of function over form. I don't care if my rifle looks perfect, but some do. The quality in my LMT is enough to give me the warm fuzzies. That's what's important to me.
jonconsiglio
01-20-12, 09:58
If you're the type that won't buy Colt because of what they did to on the civilian market, then surely you won't want Spikes either. Not only did they increase prices, they then blamed their distributors, who then called them on it.
I will not buy Spikes products. Call me whatever you want, but even if they make a good product, which it appears they base models work ok, I don't care for what they did and their gimmicky products and marketing. I don't mean to piss anyone off here, but Spikes has a "unique" customer base. Not all customers of course, but there's definitely a "Spike's customer".
Anyway, since you've ruled out Colt, I think it would only be fair to rule out Spikes. DSA may make a quality FAL, but their ARs don't get a lot of good reports.
Believe me, I hate to recommend something other than what the poster is asking about, but in this case, I can't see any better choice than BCM. You should be able to find one for the same price as a comparable Spikes. Check with Grant at G&R.
If you feel you have to buy a Spikes, stick to their base models and add a handguard later. And please, do not get a colorfilled lower.
Edit - I think one thing that really sets BCM apart is all of the options. You can have it delivered with any combination of handguards, irons, optics, grips, stocks, etc. I have a 14.5" now and it's done everything I've asked of it.
Edit - I own a Colt and am picking up another soon. I just wanted to be clear that as frustrating as things were, I will buy Colt products.
This is how my research was going
BCM or Spikes
A lot of people say BCM and Spikes are about the same quality, so I dropped the BCM.
I like the quality of my DS Arms FN/FAL so I added DSA to the options. Then the choices were DS Arms or Spikes.
There seems to be a few questions about the quality of the steel used by DS Arms, so I guess I am back to BCM or Spikes.
The rifle at BCM I am looking at is the BCM MID-16 Mod 0.
If you're the type that won't buy Colt because of what they did to on the civilian market, then surely you won't want Spikes either. Not only did they increase prices, they then blamed their distributors, who then called them on it.
I did not know spikes tried to price gouge after the election.
Buy a BCM. Get over the Colt thing. Read the stickies in each sub-forum.
Buy a BCM.
10-4
Get over the Colt thing.
When the CEO of colt comes to my house, kisses my butt and apologizes, then, and only then, will I even "consider" buying a colt.
I do not take kindly to companies that say I am no good enough to buy their product. If that is the way they want to be, they are not good enough for my money.
Read the stickies in each sub-forum.
10-4
~ EDIT ~
Just called the local gun store. The owner is getting me a price on a BCM midlength 16 mod 0.
When the CEO of colt comes to my house, kisses my butt and apologizes, then, and only then, will I even "consider" buying a colt.
The short yellow bus convoy is long this month. :blink:
colt is absolutely out of the question. I will do my best to never buy a colt product ever again.
Do yall remember when colt stopped selling their products to the public a few years ago? If I was not good enough to buy a colt product then, they do not need my money now.
So it would be better to go with a Spikes then with a DS Arms?
Nope, I don't. The reason I don't remember it is because it never happened.
C4
Google, ar15.com, m4carbine,,,, various other gun forums.
My first 2 choices were between BCM and Spikes. From what I have read, people rank BCM and Spikes right in with each other.
When 2 products are ranked with each other, I can not justify spending extra money on a given product.
A lot of people suggesting BCM. Once a certain price point is reached, I have to be able to justify the extra cost with extra quality. If I buy a BCM, can I expect BCM to be superior to a Spikes?
These people would be moron's.
C4
bsmith_shoot
01-20-12, 10:46
These people would be moron's.
C4
Grant, just for reference for this guy, what would be the cost of a complete BCM 16" middy with MOE furniture and a MBUS rear sight?
Nope, I don't. The reason I don't remember it is because it never happened.
Shortly after the assault rifle ban of 1989, colt stopped selling their AR rifles to the general public.
~ EDIT ~
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Lenett1.htm
In 1989, Colt voluntarily stopped selling the AR-15 to civilians in response to the Bush Administration's ban on the importation of assault weapons
Now what were you saying about colt never stopped selling ARs to the public?
Shortly after the assault rifle ban of 1989, colt stopped selling their AR rifles to the general public.
~ EDIT ~
http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Lenett1.htm
Now what were you saying about colt never stopped selling ARs to the public?
christ on a mother****ingcross.
:suicide:
You can't even read the very next sentence after the one you quoted?
When Colt was sold in 1990, the new owners reversed that decision and resumed the manufacture and sale of a "modified" AR-15 to civilians, renaming it the "Sporter."
I guess you think we should still be handing out 40 acres and a mule and paying reparations to the Indians too huh?
Buy a Spikes.
BTW, reading posts on internet forums is not "research".
Take this: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM
Add this: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-C
Put this on the back: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=A1-BUIS
And you have a complete BCM M4 that will be bulletproof and run forever. All for $959.95
ETA: The links dropped the options. I added a BCM bolt carrier group, M4 Handguards, and a Mod4 Gunfighter charging handle to the upper, and a BCM M4 stock to the lower.
Or, get a factory complete Daniel Defense (equal quality to BCM, Colt, ETC) with a Pmag, case, papers, etc for $999.99: http://www.smartgunner.com/Daniel-Defense-M4-Carbine-XV.aspx
christ on a mother****ingcross.
:suicide:
You can't even read the very next sentence after the one you quoted?
The question was if colt ever stopped selling AR rifles to the public.
Its pretty obvious that colt started selling again.
Or, get a factory complete Daniel Defense
Is DD the same quality as BCM?
Think I will keep leaning towards a BCM midlength
The question was if colt ever stopped selling AR rifles to the public.
Its pretty obvious that colt started selling again.
Dude, you are reaching here.
C4
Dude, you are reaching here.
You are the one that made the comment "it never happened" - referring to colt never stopped selling their rifles to the public.
Well, it did happen. Even though it was for a short period of time, colt did stop selling their AR rifles to the general public.
And that is why I will not buy a colt product.
~~~
What I am getting out of this thread, if I want to spend some extra money, buy a BCM.
If I want to keep the price at $1,000 or below, buy a Spikes. But if I buy a spikes, I will be promoting a company that hiked its prices after obama was elected.
Besides a Spikes, what is a good comparable AR? One of my other choices was a S&W M&P. Academy sports and outdoors as S&W M&Ps for around $900 - $975.
You are the one that made the comment "it never happened" - referring to colt never stopped selling their rifles to the public.
Well, it did happen. Even though it was for a short period of time, colt did stop selling their AR rifles to the general public.
And that is why I will not buy a colt product.
~~~
What I am getting out of this thread, if I want to spend some extra money, buy a BCM.
If I want to keep the price at $1,000 or below, buy a Spikes. But if I buy a spikes, I will be promoting a company that hiked its prices after obama was elected.
Besides a Spikes, what is a good comparable AR? One of my other choices was a S&W M&P. Academy sports and outdoors as S&W M&Ps for around $900 - $975.
Did you see my post above? BCM and Daniel Defense both under $1K. Both are best of the best for mil-spec, reliable guns. Both have excellent customer service. What more is there to say?
I guess you think we should still be handing out 40 acres and a mule and paying reparations to the Indians too huh?
Haha!
Out of curiosity, where was is said that Spikes = BCM? Had to be TOS because I've never seen anyone come to that conclusion on here.
My feelings on Spike's is the same as jonconsiglio's. I almost bought into their garbage with the buffer but then I came to my senses. And those color filled lowers bother me...
Did you see my post above? BCM and Daniel Defense both under $1K. Both are best of the best for mil-spec, reliable guns. Both have excellent customer service. What more is there to say?
I think that pretty much answers my question, thank you.
Smartgunner has a DD M4 Mid Length XVM listed for $1,099.
I am supposed to call the local gun store back this evening about the BCM price. Once I have the BCM price, I will go from there.
You are the one that made the comment "it never happened" - referring to colt never stopped selling their rifles to the public.
It most likely never did happen. The state they live in probably forced them into some BS and they had no choice.
I am willing to bet though, that you could have purchased an LE Colt all day long (just like you can now).
Understand that you know VERY LITTLE about what happened back then and am SURE there is more to the story.
What I am getting out of this thread, if I want to spend some extra money, buy a BCM.
C4
I think that pretty much answers my question, thank you.
Smartgunner has a DD M4 Mid Length XVM listed for $1,099.
I am supposed to call the local gun store back this evening about the BCM price. Once I have the BCM price, I will go from there.
Most dealers are going to buy a BCM from a distr. like RSR. So they will more than likely over charge you.
You need to talk to actual BCM Distr. (like us) for pricing.
C4
You need to talk to actual BCM Distr. (like us) for pricing.
Why dont you post me a quote for a BCM mid length 16 mod 0?
I also want a true 16 inch barrel, not a 14.5 inch barrel plus flash suppressor.
Why dont you post me a quote for a BCM mid length 16 mod 0?
I also want a true 16 inch barrel, not a 14.5 inch barrel plus flash suppressor.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-LWC
C4
SomeOtherGuy
01-20-12, 12:12
I think that pretty much answers my question, thank you.
Smartgunner has a DD M4 Mid Length XVM listed for $1,099.
I am supposed to call the local gun store back this evening about the BCM price. Once I have the BCM price, I will go from there.
I've purchased a couple DD uppers from smartgunner. The first few went OK, but the last attempted purchase resulted in me filing a credit card dispute, after months of waiting and repeated promises of "next week!". I wouldn't buy from them again. See the sticky.
BCM and DD are both excellent, as is LMT's basic M4 (and all LMT products), but at current prices I think the Colt 6920 makes by far the most sense for anyone looking for a standard M4 or at least having a standard M4 within their range of interest.
OP;
These guys are trying to give you some good advice..and you'd benefit from listening. Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, all top notch makers, I'd also get over the Colt thing..Alot of shit that happened back then they were forced to do.. That dosen't mean however, that they WANTED to.S&W did simular things then as well, so did Ruger. It's in the past...time to move on.. If you've read the "Chart", good, As you may know, it's based on the TDP..Which COLT wrote.. just saying...I would'nt let what happened over 15yrs ago, cloud my judgement today,
davidjinks
01-20-12, 13:15
How long have you been involved in shooting/guns/collecting or whatever gun related?
I do not take kindly to companies that say I am no good enough to buy their product. If that is the way they want to be, they are not good enough for my money.
There has been some excellent information dolled out in this thread. I reccomend that you follow some of the advice given about the better quality gun purchase, even if it isn't the brand you asked about. The words in this thread will save you a lot of money in the long run.
OP;
These guys are trying to give you some good advice..and you'd benefit from listening. Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, all top notch makers, I'd also get over the Colt thing.
I will listen and take their advice. Right now I am leaning towards a DD or BCM, depending on which one has the best price.
As for the colt thing, no, I will not get over it. I refuse to buy from a company that craps on its customers.
How long have you been involved in shooting/guns/collecting or whatever gun related?
I am 43 years old, and have been around firearms since I was old enough for my dad to take my brother and I squirrel hunting, which I was about 5 or 6 years old a the time.
I bought my first rifle the month I turned 18, January 1986. The rifle was a Ruger 10/22. I still have that 10/22 to this day.
Back when clinton signed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) in 1994, I ran down to a local gun store a bought a colt. My ex-wife ended up with it in during the divorce in 2000. She also kept the Maadi, and the H&K SP89. When I bought the SP89 around 1991 or 1992, they were about $1,200, now they are like $5,000.
Buy Daniel Defense and don't look back, enough said. I have 2 and couldn't be happier.
Shortly after the assault rifle ban of 1989, colt stopped selling their AR rifles to the general public.
... in 1994, I ran down to a local gun store a bought a colt.
So you were willing to buy a Colt in 1994? I just think you're being a bit foolish holding a grudge over something that happened 20+ years ago. For the price point under $1k the Colt is the best thing going.
davidjinks
01-20-12, 14:01
The reason I asked is because gun and ammunition companies have been restricting certain lines of their products for years to the "regular" type guy. Reading what you have posted tells me you have a very looooong list of manufacturers you won't be dealing with. That's kinda what I get from your words, you're hung up over a company who stopped selling to the civvy market...for like a minute.
Anyway, you can't go wrong with BCM or Daniel Defense.
I will listen and take their advice. Right now I am leaning towards a DD or BCM, depending on which one has the best price.
As for the colt thing, no, I will not get over it. I refuse to buy from a company that craps on its customers.
I am 43 years old, and have been around firearms since I was old enough for my dad to take my brother and I squirrel hunting, which I was about 5 or 6 years old a the time.
I bought my first rifle the month I turned 18, January 1986. The rifle was a Ruger 10/22. I still have that 10/22 to this day.
Back when clinton signed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) in 1994, I ran down to a local gun store a bought a colt. My ex-wife ended up with it in during the divorce in 2000. She also kept the Maadi, and the H&K SP89. When I bought the SP89 around 1991 or 1992, they were about $1,200, now they are like $5,000.
So you were willing to buy a Colt in 1994? I just think you're being a bit foolish holding a grudge over something that happened 20+ years ago. For the price point under $1k the Colt is the best thing going.
Consider it a change of morals and values
juliomorris
01-20-12, 17:11
I hold a grudge against several of the manufacturers like Ruger, Colt, S&W, and Remington(For a differant reason). But Colt does make the best with DD and BCM hot on their hills. But I also use Spikes and PSA parts. If I'm going to buy a complete rifle I would go DD or BCM but if I'm building one like the 2 I have going now they are a mix of PSA upper/lower, BCM bcg and yes spikes bcg. These are for my daughters 11 and 12. Yep one has pink and the other purple.
I will listen and take their advice. Right now I am leaning towards a DD or BCM, depending on which one has the best price.
As for the colt thing, no, I will not get over it. I refuse to buy from a company that craps on its customers.
I am 43 years old, and have been around firearms since I was old enough for my dad to take my brother and I squirrel hunting, which I was about 5 or 6 years old a the time.
I bought my first rifle the month I turned 18, January 1986. The rifle was a Ruger 10/22. I still have that 10/22 to this day.
Back when clinton signed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) in 1994, I ran down to a local gun store a bought a colt. My ex-wife ended up with it in during the divorce in 2000. She also kept the Maadi, and the H&K SP89. When I bought the SP89 around 1991 or 1992, they were about $1,200, now they are like $5,000.
Well, at least we got you looking at high quality manfacturers,who make rifles you can depend on...instead of one, who is questionable, and the other who should probably stick to FAL's
underachiever
01-20-12, 20:35
for 412 thats shipped, you can get a bcm upper. still need a ch and a bcg. You can then turn around and buy an assembled bcm lower from G and R for another 250.00. complete would be around 850.00 to 900.00 for a bcm you could stake your life on. And no not everyone needs milspec but you should strive for it as milspec is a set of specs that have been developed over years and years and with them specs you get a rifle that will run and run and run. spikes has had some issues thru out there carrer and as far as im concerned PSA has had a better start. just my thoughts.
DD aint a bad choicedefinetly cant go wrong there.
:shout: Mil Spec schmilspec....Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!
The only forums I've seen "Mil spec" thrown around so much are those centered on the AR platform.
Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70? I could go on....
Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.
Every stitch of clothing that the military issues is mil spec but I don't think you will get too many service members say that the clothing they are issued is the best that can be obtained.
Any competent machinist, with the specified material and the ability to read the drawing can make the part!
:shout: Mil Spec schmilspec....Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!
The only forums I've seen "Mil spec" thrown around so much are those centered on the AR platform.
Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70? I could go on....
Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.
Every stitch of clothing that the military issues is mil spec but I don't think you will get too many service members say that the clothing they are issued is the best that can be obtained.
Any competent machinist, with the specified material and the ability to read the drawing can make the part!
Ah, the short bus has arrived.
The problem with ARs is that the great majority of makers FAIL to meet those minimum standards. And while any competent machinist COULD make the part, very few do. And that is because there are folks who say "Milspec, schmilspec" and then buy AR crapola.
Aren't you due to go to window licking class, soon?
underachiever
01-21-12, 01:29
Well if the us milliatary used the glockwe would have a milspec glock.
And we sure know dsarms cant even make a weapon holding to the specs.
And considering the millitary has used the AR i would think they along with colt know how and what to use to build a lasting weapon. And with spikes you have to step up to there law enforcment carbine just to get it. Milspec sure isnt end all but yes it's the very least someone should expect.
:shout: Mil Spec schmilspec....
Let me explain- no, that will take to long. Let me sum up- I don't think that word means what you think it means
Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!
When I design and install a skin repair on a 737, it meets the minimum specification set by Boeing in accordance with regulations set by the FAA. It means I use the correct materials specified by the repair manual. Not worse than. Not better than because "better" than is actually "worse than" because it can cause safety of flight issues. There is a failsafe row of rivets that is at the very edge of the repair doubler that calls for AD rivets, a softer less durable alloy than what is used with the normal E rivet. If I used the "better" E rivet instead, it will cause early failure of the repair. Not only is it the minimum specification, it's the only specification allowed because it's the only specification that ensures safety of flight.
My company provides service to an airline because it's the lowest bidder. But if we did not deliver as contracted, that airline would pull out and take their planes elsewhere.
I have also worked as an aviation contractor on military projects. We were the lowest bidder. Again, of we did not deliver, the contract was yanked. Why do companies spend so much effort to provide the best customer service possible? Because the contracts are lucrative.
Take the material specified for the barrels. It must meet a certain standard as set forth by the military. You can look up the spec sheet for yourself. The material Colt uses to meet that spec is 4150 CMV. It's more expensive than 4140 CM, the standard barrel steel used in most commercial rifles. 4150 CMV is also more durable than 4140. Some commercial AR manufacturers cut their receivers from a billet of 6061. These receivers are heavier and more expensive and pound for pound, less stiff than receivers cut from a 7075 forging as specified by milspec.
Yes, the milspec is the minimum standard and the contracts are given to the lowest bidder. But it's not only a good standard, it's a high standard and the suppliers work hard to meet them and spend a good amount of money to make sure they are maintained.
The only forums I've seen "Mil spec" thrown around so much are those centered on the AR platform.
Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70? I could go on....
Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.
Every stitch of clothing that the military issues is mil spec but I don't think you will get too many service members say that the clothing they are issued is the best that can be obtained.
Any competent machinist, with the specified material and the ability to read the drawing can make the part!
While there is no milspec for civilian firearms, they all have one thing in common- They are built to a minimum standard by the lowest bidder. The great ones are built to a high standard by a bidder wanting to keep in business.
Some parts can be built by any machinist who can read a print, but not all of them can. There is so much involved with manufacturing a part that much of it is accomplished by "tribal knowledge". Fastest way to kill a successful project is to fire all the experienced workers and hire new ones.
I had a problem installing a few fasteners in the passenger floor assembly of one airliner that I could not get the engineers to address. If I got any part wrong, I wouldn't know until the assembly was finished and it would be too late to fix. It was more cost effective and faster for me to develop what turned out to be an unusual and tricky assembly sequence to assure it went together right every time and meet all the specifications, because if I got it wrong, there was no way to fix it. This procedure was never documented by the company and when I tried to teach it to a co-worker so my boss could put me on another project, the co-worker couldn't accomplish it as quickly or with the same level of quality. The blueprint did show how this assembly went together, but there was so much more to that little job than the blueprints showed.
You can mock the milspec, but there is a huge difference between a company with an experienced work force building to a known standard with a history of delivering on time, within budget, using proper processes with correct documentation & certifications while developing a good, long term relationship with the customer and looking at a blue print and saying "Hey Billy Bob, hold muh beer a minute!"
Eurodriver
01-21-12, 06:18
Let me explain- no, that will take to long. Let me sum up- I don't think that word means what you think it means
When I design and install a skin repair on a 737, it meets the minimum specification set by Boeing in accordance with regulations set by the FAA. It means I use the correct materials specified by the repair manual. Not worse than. Not better than because "better" than is actually "worse than" because it can cause safety of flight issues. There is a failsafe row of rivets that is at the very edge of the repair doubler that calls for AD rivets, a softer less durable alloy than what is used with the normal E rivet. If I used the "better" E rivet instead, it will cause early failure of the repair. Not only is it the minimum specification, it's the only specification allowed because it's the only specification that ensures safety of flight.
My company provides service to an airline because it's the lowest bidder. But if we did not deliver as contracted, that airline would pull out and take their planes elsewhere.
I have also worked as an aviation contractor on military projects. We were the lowest bidder. Again, of we did not deliver, the contract was yanked. Why do companies spend so much effort to provide the best customer service possible? Because the contracts are lucrative.
Take the material specified for the barrels. It must meet a certain standard as set forth by the military. You can look up the spec sheet for yourself. The material Colt uses to meet that spec is 4150 CMV. It's more expensive than 4140 CM, the standard barrel steel used in most commercial rifles. 4150 CMV is also more durable than 4140. Some commercial AR manufacturers cut their receivers from a billet of 6061. These receivers are heavier and more expensive and pound for pound, less stiff than receivers cut from a 7075 forging as specified by milspec.
Yes, the milspec is the minimum standard and the contracts are given to the lowest bidder. But it's not only a good standard, it's a high standard and the suppliers work hard to meet them and spend a good amount of money to make sure they are maintained.
While there is no milspec for civilian firearms, they all have one thing in common- They are built to a minimum standard by the lowest bidder. The great ones are built to a high standard by a bidder wanting to keep in business.
Some parts can be built by any machinist who can read a print, but not all of them can. There is so much involved with manufacturing a part that much of it is accomplished by "tribal knowledge". Fastest way to kill a successful project is to fire all the experienced workers and hire new ones.
I had a problem installing a few fasteners in the passenger floor assembly of one airliner that I could not get the engineers to address. If I got any part wrong, I wouldn't know until the assembly was finished and it would be too late to fix. It was more cost effective and faster for me to develop what turned out to be an unusual and tricky assembly sequence to assure it went together right every time and meet all the specifications, because if I got it wrong, there was no way to fix it. This procedure was never documented by the company and when I tried to teach it to a co-worker so my boss could put me on another project, the co-worker couldn't accomplish it as quickly or with the same level of quality. The blueprint did show how this assembly went together, but there was so much more to that little job than the blueprints showed.
You can mock the milspec, but there is a huge difference between a company with an experienced work force building to a known standard with a history of delivering on time, within budget, using proper processes with correct documentation & certifications while developing a good, long term relationship with the customer and looking at a blue print and saying "Hey Billy Bob, hold muh beer a minute!"
Thank you so much for that.
I've always looked at it (and don't understand why others can't figure it out) as Colt's milspec is whatever standards the US Government said in writing that each rifle much meet, built for the lowest bidder (the US Gov't)
DPMS/Bushmaster/Armalite/DSArms/Stag Arms/etc also have a lowest bidder. Its called a weekend hobby shooter, but they don't have a contract with these people. If the market only willing to spend X amount of dollars on a rifle, it cannot cost more than Y to produce one. If the cost of labor and materials make Y increase to a point that they have to increase X (and lose sales) they will cut corners because they do not follow a set standard.
Where as regardless of circumstances, Colt must meet the TDP on every rifle it sells.
Does Colt really have to build to the TDP for rifles they sell to us civilians? Just asking.
This sillyness is finished.
1. We have had a plethora of discussions here about what MILSPEC means and what it doesn't. Unfortunately we cannot give classes on reading comprehension.
2. We aren't going to dogpile on Colt. We all know the history and things that have happened when Christ was a seaman. Get over it.
3. Comparing Spike's to Colt, BCM or DD is like comparing a Hyundai to a Toyota.
:shout: Mil Spec schmilspec....Mil Spec is not the end all be all definitive standard of firearms quality! Mil spec is by definition the MINIMUM specifications that the government will accept, and from the lowest bidder at that in most cases!
Hello and welcome to the forum! You are correct in many ways. The lowest bidder thing when dealing with .Gov contracts is pretty much gone.
Does anyone own a mil spec Glock? How about a milspec Colt Python? A milspec pre 64 Winchester Model 70?
Glock (for instance) has a TDP and the Glock's that are purchased be the Military typically have a different setup than what is available to the public. This would be defined as a "Military Specification."
Mil spec receiver extensions (buffer tubes to some of you) are just parts that are a certain dimension (within military specified tolerances), of a (mil spec)ified material, possibly with a (mil spec)ified coating.
The mil spec for any item the military procures is an assurance that all items of that type the military procures will be the same regardless of when it is purchased or who it is purchased from.
Mil-Spec (the TDP) for the M4 (for instance) is a living document that is constantly evolving. Colt refines this document and is always finding better ways to make the weapon.
In regards to what the TDP does, it DEFINES EVERYTHING for how the gun is to be built. Steel used, all internal & external dimensions, thickness of chrome, twist rate, chamber, gas port size, accuracy standards, testing done, hardness and even the color of the phosphate!
So why is the above so important? Because the company has to follow this standard. Companies that do not follow the TDP end up following a "standard" that allows them to extract the most money they can from their gun.
Now, is there better than "Mil-Spec?" Yes, there can be, but at the moment there are very few parts/guns that EXCEED the TDP (though there are companies attempting to do so).
C4
Does Colt really have to build to the TDP for rifles they sell to us civilians? Just asking.
It is the only way they know how to build them.
When you have two separate assembly lines, it is two easy for parts to get intermingled. So this is why companies do not do it.
C4
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