View Full Version : best caliber for ~600 yards?
I've spent a bit of time on this forum, so apologies if this has been covered. If yes, pls just point me to the correct thread.
I have an RRA m4 (Elite Car A4) in 5.56 with 16” standard profile barrel, 1:9, 2-stage (match??) trigger. The barrel is stamped "210-P" which I believe means a chrome-moly barrel with mid-length gas tube?? I added a Trijicon RX01NSN for <100 yards. I typically run M193 (55 gr FMJ, Lake City bulk) through it for range/practice, competing with friends, etc.
I'd like to be able to hit stuff out farther. I think the best explanation is:
- consistently reach ~600 yards
- achieve Minute of Soldier accuracy (an alchemist I am not)
- enough power to stop whatever I aim at long enough for a follow-up shot (pls don't flame me for cruelty - 1. I don't pull unless I'm pretty confident I can hit; 2. if I'm hungry and it's lower on the food chain than me, I don't mind wounding it and tracking it to kill it before I eat it)
I like the idea of 7.62 but after reading about 6.5 / 6.8 / .300 Whisper / .300BLK / etc. I figure maybe I just get a long-range upper for my AR? I just made up 'long-range upper', so let me know if this is like asking about dry water. I also read something interesting about the right upper coupled with the right ammo in 5.56 going to ~700 yards. - is this possible?
TIA
Generalpie
01-21-12, 13:04
I can regularly hit a man target at 500 with a 14.5 carbine and an eotech from prone or rest. Any decent heavy target round with a decent glass attached will give you great result on hitting at 600. The 75 and 77 grain offerings seem to be the best, although I sold my long range AR and have very little experience with them personally.
For actually hunting things that move at that range the .223/5.56 is underpowered on all levels. I don't have the ballistics handy on the alternate calibers but I believe .308 is borderline for medium game at that range. A quick check of the .308 ballistic tables put a quality hunting load like the Remington loaded Scirocco Bonded 165 grain bullet at just over 1800 fps and that is with a muzzle velocity of 2700 which I assume is from a 24" test barrel.
If you want to shoot targets any 1/7 twist precision barrel will work well if you do your part.
To bang steel, a precision load in .223/5.56 such as BH 77 SMK or a similar reload will work nicely at 600 Yds. Possibly a SPR type barrel and suitable optic would need to be in the mix as well. Try what you got with some suitable ammo.
None of the above for taking medium game at that distance, however. The 6.5 and 6.8 would be the better choices of those listed for long range trajectory and energy.
Thanks for the feedback, gents.
Can you recommend how/where to start researching 5.56 uppers & optics for this; in other words, which search terms will limit my results to the stuff I'm looking for?
On a separate question - why will a 5.56 suffice for a man-sized target at ~600 but even a 7.62 might be under-powered for game? As a non-hunter, assuming I'm not trying to punch through rhino skin, why would a head/heart shot not work? I totally acknowledge that one of my life goals is to shoot as good as my rifle, so my question does not stem from hubris ... just want to know what I am missing?
On initial assessment, 5.56, 6.5Grendel, 7.62x51, or the 260Rem/6.5CM all come to mind.
A 5.56 match barreled setup (longer barrel helps) with heavier loads will more than suffice. Cheap ammo won't cut it, a free floated match barrel will help a ton, good optics and installing a good match trigger will go a long way. There are tons of excellent ones to choose from - a 20" varminter will be the cheapest, but honestly a 16" match recce from a good barrel manufacturer will do and fill other roles very nicely as well.
6.5G out of that lower if you really want to do well at 600m. It's hard to compete with the slick 6.5mm projectiles, especially at range. the 260Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor also come to mind if AR10/SR25 or M700 Short Action length is the limitation.
7.62 if 600m is your primary concern. More is more, and the availability of good factory match ammo in this caliber make it the obvious choice if you're looking to go with a new platform - but they're not cheap (unless you're going bolt action).
I'd say build yourself a really good 5.56 16" Match upper - put some good glass on it, choose a quality railed handguard that isn't to heavy (DD, KAC, TROY, Centurion), and run one of the many top notch SS match barrels (Noveske, Centurion, BCM, WOA/Rainier, Lilja, Douglas, CLI, or the Rock MRP barrels), and figure out which heavy load it shoots well.
5.56 may not have one-hit knockdown power at extended range, but I'll take something I'm well practice with and can make rapid follow up shots - besides, at 600m making any hit is going to reduce the threat significantly.
If it were up to me - I'd snag a complete Noveske 16", Centurion Recce 16", or the BCM 16" SS unit, install a Geissele SSA family trigger (they ARE better than the RRA NM), and spend the rest on ammunition and glass.
I'd even consider getting the optic and some more match type ammo, and running it on your current setup, then incrementally adding more parts as you improve.
I can make hits on person sized target with boring regularity at 500m with even M855, better ammunition and barrel really take the hardware out of the picture, and let you focus purely on fundamentals.
lengthofpull
01-21-12, 21:14
Sounds like a colt 901 would be a good setup for you. Knock down the critters at 600 with the .308, ring the steel and practice with the .223. And only pay for 1 stock/grip and 1 trigger setup that you like.
Thanks for the feedback, gents.
Can you recommend how/where to start researching 5.56 uppers & optics for this; in other words, which search terms will limit my results to the stuff I'm looking for?
On a separate question - why will a 5.56 suffice for a man-sized target at ~600 but even a 7.62 might be under-powered for game? As a non-hunter, assuming I'm not trying to punch through rhino skin, why would a head/heart shot not work? I totally acknowledge that one of my life goals is to shoot as good as my rifle, so my question does not stem from hubris ... just want to know what I am missing?
The thing you are missing is practical experience. Some time on the range, even under perfect conditions and from a bench, will show you how impractical a first-shot/cold-barrel head or heart shot is at 600 Yds. The requisite natural ability as well as the level of gear and training is well above what most will ever be capable of.
Punching thru the ribs with a magnum caliber would up the odds a lot, but is still in expert territory at that range.
FYI "7.62" is a very broad term and could cover the relatively weak .300 BLK/7.62x39 class you mentioned; medium calibers in the 7.62x51/.308 range, or magnum calibers such as the .300 WM. 7.62x51 "might" be adequate for White Tailed deer at 600 - from a pure energy standpoint - but would certainly be less than desirable for anything larger.
Banging steel at longer range is a different story. Gongs don't run off...or shoot back. :)
Thanks to everyone who posted thus far - ALL good stuff.
TehLlama - this was EXACTLY what I was looking for to determine how much I don't know - thx!! I like your comment about the fundamentals. I quickly read a Jeff Cooper book once - can you recommend others?
Shootist - you made me laugh - alot.
I greatly respect guys who answer questions without BS. Plus, you motivated me to get more trigger time in 2012. I didn't realize cold bore shots are that hard ... I don't live near an actual range (versus small targets at 100y), so when I go I always try to learn something from the guys at the 600y berm. One guy told me after he gets his rig dialled in it's more common than not. Of course, he was using a telescope (not spotting scope), laptop w/ weather charts, pda with live atmospheric conditions, and string on the trigger ...
Thanks also for the fyi re: 7.62. and the last line was great, too!
Don't be too quick to discount how much learning you can do engaging small targets from 100m, but there's no replacement for getting practice with wind calls and actual bullet drop. I've seen our guys go to pieces at 500m for Table 1 qualification, who are otherwise sound shooter, but this usually isn't the norm.
Something as affordable as an ugly cheap varminting upper (can be a plain chrome-moly steel barrel in a cheap FF tube) and better ammunition (PPU 75gr at a minimum) can get you shooting 5" targets at 200yd consistently, so if you're not concerned with terminal ballistics I'd say .223/5.56 is the right platform for the time being, for purely cost reasons.
As for the above configurations - bravocompanyusa for the BCM 16" SS uppers (any FF rail will do), and this place periodically sees some immaculate Centurion, Noveske, HighCaliberSales, or similar match uppers crop up used with low round counts at a good price.
It's going to be a touch more difficult with a setup like this vice shooting a .308 or 260/6.5mm bolt rifle with a 24" or longer barrel, but at the end of the day those are long range tools, a recce can be an all-around rifle.
Thanks for the feedback, gents.
Can you recommend how/where to start researching 5.56 uppers & optics for this; in other words, which search terms will limit my results to the stuff I'm looking for?
On a separate question - why will a 5.56 suffice for a man-sized target at ~600 but even a 7.62 might be under-powered for game? As a non-hunter, assuming I'm not trying to punch through rhino skin, why would a head/heart shot not work? I totally acknowledge that one of my life goals is to shoot as good as my rifle, so my question does not stem from hubris ... just want to know what I am missing?
We don't mind if people crawl off to die and are never recovered. Animals, we want to put right down.
We don't mind if people crawl off to die and are never recovered. Animals, we want to put right down.
Funny!
Don't be too quick to discount how much learning you can do engaging small targets from 100m ...
Agreed. Thx for the other info as well.
Follow-up Questions; I read some posts (either ar15.com or thehighroad.org - don't recall) which might affect my decision, but don't understand the topics well enough ...
A free-float barrel (or handguard - unsure which is actually correct) will prevent the barrel from tweaking out of alignment during each shot for various reasons. One includes the lack of a sling pulling against it. I don't understand this if the sling attaches directly to the barrel near the gas block??
Also, there appears to be new math around twist rate and bullet weight??? Does this mean if I shoot a bullet which is too heavy from my current 1:9 twist 16" barrel, the problem could be that oppose to weapon or operator skill??
TIA.
Google: Twist Rate bullet weight stability MOLON site:m4carbine.net
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=827253
A free-float barrel (or handguard - unsure which is actually correct) will prevent the barrel from tweaking out of alignment during each shot for various reasons. One includes the lack of a sling pulling against it. I don't understand this if the sling attaches directly to the barrel near the gas block??
You would not want to continue attaching it to the front sight block. Many people grind down their gas block and install a long rail over it, then put a back-up iron site on the front. Many rail systems have quick detach sockets, or you could attach a picatinny sling attachment.
Google: Twist Rate bullet weight stability MOLON site:m4carbine.net
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=827253
GREAT stuff. Thanks.
You would not want to continue attaching it to the front sight block. Many people grind down their gas block and install a long rail over it, then put a back-up iron site on the front. Many rail systems have quick detach sockets, or you could attach a picatinny sling attachment.
Thanks for confirming I'm not nuts ...
Next question - if I have a standard hand guard, how do I determine if it's a free-float setup or not?
Thanks for confirming I'm not nuts ...
Next question - if I have a standard hand guard, how do I determine if it's a free-float setup or not?
A free float handguard only touches the barrel at the barrel nut which is just in front of the reciever. Your "standard handguard", most likely, attaches at the rear and then again up at the front sight/gas block.
I say most likely because I dont know what you have on your rifle.
If you have a standard hanguard it's a 99% sure bet that its not free floated. Free floated means that nothing touches the barrel. The barrel nut keeps the barrel in the upper and the handguard usually mounts to the barrel nut and does not come in contact with the barrel, gas tube or gas block. Exception to this is the OBR and PredatAR which don't touch even the nut.
When you fire a round the barrel will whip around, for lack of better terminology, due to the stresses involved in launching that projectile down range. Take a look at some slow motion video and you will see the movement, especially on light weight barrels. There is no stopping this movement. Heavyweight profile barrels, fluted barrels may minimize the movement, but there is always going to be some there. You want the barrel to do its thing without any outside contact so that this movement is as consistent as humanly possible. If its consistent you can accommodate for it. Having stuff touching the barrel makes this movement unpredictable and difficult if not impossible to accommodate for. People often talk about barrel harmonics which is another term for this barrel movement.
Thanks for the info gents. I found a Brownells 'How to change to a free-float handguard' video which was quite helpful to visualize what you guys explained. The explanation of barrel whip / harmonics was excellent. You guys are correct about my setup:
https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=475&pictureid=2458
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https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=475&pictureid=2459
I have a 3-point (current version is blackhawk #70GS17BK) which I attach thru the stock around the buffer tube then attach to the side-mount near the gas block.
Next ques: sounds like a free float handguard with picatinny + side-mount-sling-point would work? Anything I should know about this setup? Meaning, will something about this config tweak something else out of alignment? Thx.
lifebreath
01-26-12, 14:49
Get a .308 bolt gun and be done with it. :happy: Otherwise, LaRue OBR or PredatAR 7.62? Add an S&B, Premier or Hensoldt 3-12/15X and you're GTG ...
You didn't mention a budget.
I like .308 since good loads are readily available and relatively inexpensive.
lifebreath - Good info. Budget is not a concern yet.
All - for glass, what are your thoughts on an ACOG 4x?
for throwing lead at a human 50-300 yards away they are great, but a hunting optic they are not.
I recommend a 3-9x or so for reaching out to 600+ with consistency.
ACOGs are great for almost Marine-proof durability, and that the FOV is very good among other fixed optics. Not very good precision rifle optics, and not very good for shooting up close - for the 600m application I'd be looking at a 3-9x, or maybe the Vortex 2.5-10x.
Or even a NF 2.5x10x32.......
dumb question time ...
assuming this guide - http://www.opticsplanet.net/how-to-choose-riflescope.html - is not complete B.S., I know enuf to not stare blankly at the specs page ...
but I don't get why the huge variation in cost for 'similar' units (all @ opticsplanet to keep pricing simple)?
Trijicon TR20-2: AccuPoint 3-9x40 Riflescope for $600
Vortex Viper HS 2.5-10x44 @ $400
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 @ $600
NightForce 2.5-10x32mm NXS Compact Illuminated Reticle Zero Stop Riflescope for $1400-1700
the more I learn, the less I know ...
dumb question time ...
assuming this guide - http://www.opticsplanet.net/how-to-choose-riflescope.html - is not complete B.S., I know enuf to not stare blankly at the specs page ...
but I don't get why the huge variation in cost for 'similar' units (all @ opticsplanet to keep pricing simple)?
Trijicon TR20-2: AccuPoint 3-9x40 Riflescope for $600
Vortex Viper HS 2.5-10x44 @ $400
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 @ $600
NightForce 2.5-10x32mm NXS Compact Illuminated Reticle Zero Stop Riflescope for $1400-1700
the more I learn, the less I know ...
Build quality and part quality. Thats like comparing a Honda to a BMW. Both might be four door cars but that doesnt mean they are the same.
Build quality and part quality. Thats like comparing a Honda to a BMW. Both might be four door cars but that doesnt mean they are the same.
C-Grunt: Agreed. Great analogy!
All: So a 5 year-old BMW that has been maintained will function as good as a new one - but lacks some cool new gadgetry (e.g. HUD, night vision), some better useful stuff (e.g. better cruise control) and, of course, cache (full disclosure: I own a 14-year old 5 series). Since Fair Market Value for everything varies --
1. The only difference between Vortex glass appears to be:
- HS Turret Style = Capped
- PST Turret Style = Tall Uncapped - CRS Zero Stop
-- is the PST worth a 50% premium?
2. Is the NightForce 2.5-10x32mm NXS Compact Illuminated Reticle Zero Stop Riflescope worth 2x or 3x the cost of the Vortex?
Thanks for the continued insight
also ... would high-end glass obviate a spotting scope?
Spotting scopes are still a good idea unless you are planning on a 30+ magnification scope. High end scopes are a lot better for spotting your own hits but lack the high magnification most of the time.
The only difference between Vortex glass appears to be that the HS Turret Style is 'Capped' and the PST Turret Style is 'Tall Uncapped - CRS Zero Stop' -- is the PST worth a 50% premium?
Also, is the NightForce 2.5-10x32mm NXS Compact Illuminated Reticle Zero Stop Riflescope worth 2x or 3x the cost of the Vortex?
The PST has an illuminated, tactical milling type, glass-etched reticle. I don't know how the reticle is formed in the HS but it's likely a wire based one. If you are wanting to do ranging of targets using your reticle then you'd want to get the PST with the EBR-1 reticle.
The Nightforce is a smaller package that will likely outperform the Vortex scopes in optic clarity, etc. They're just going to be built to a higher standard across the board.
That being said, I'm quite satisfied with my PST so far.
vinsonr - Thx. If you had 4 rifles, only 2 with scopes, and cost is not a concern - but you only get to spend $1400 per year on optics, would you:
1. buy 2 PST's this year
or
2. buy a Nightforce this year and wait until next year to buy a second scope
I'm trying to decide on the value of the 'better' scope. I believe it's better, just lack enuf experience to make the decision. I stopped into Dick's Sporting Goods and used a Simmons (<$300??) to peek at an intersection (~50 cars) ~550yrds away at night. I could differentiate between vehicle types, and between tail light vs. license plate on a single vehicle. So I'm wondering what spending 5x gets me ??
So I'm wondering what spending 5x gets me ??
It gets you a BMW. A Nightforce scope is going to be tons better than a $300 scope, and somewhat better than even the Viper PST. There's a reason why they can charge $1500 for it and still sell them.
My recommendation is to see if you can try out various optics. See if your local sporting goods or hunting outfitter provides the opportunity to look through various makes and models and see for yourself.
I recommend doing it during the day if you can look outside, or in a very big and well lit indoor area (like Cabela's).
If you don't need zero stop, high speed turrets and a fancy reticle to measure targets with then you'll be fine with a less expensive scope. But there are differences in eye relief and optical quality that you may encounter and might be important to you in the long run.
Also the NF will most likely take more abuse than the Simmons scope. The NF is a scope built for hard use. The Simmons is built for deer hunting.
Something it took me a long time to learn is that there are differences in the quality of glass that don't manifest themselves right away. After a certain point, many scopes appear to be equally clear, but the true tests will be eye fatigue during longer shooting sessions, and retention of clarity in poor lighting conditions.
That's my short experience of it all, anyway.
GREAT feedback - thx gents.
during SHOT 2012, a NF rep gave me one of their scopes and asked to beat it on a wooden surface.....I whacked it pretty hard....Then the NF rep took the scope and beat it against the wood so hard that I was convinced he shattered the glass......I'm sold :D
Another dumb question (thx for your patience with these) ...
Someone recommended binos instead of a spotting scope - specifically Steiner Military-Marine Binoculars 8x30 -- quick research suggests I can see 600 yards with the binos, but I am unsure if this means it doesn't look like blurry nothing or if I can track shot placement?
Another dumb question (thx for your patience with these) ...
Someone recommended binos instead of a spotting scope - specifically Steiner Military-Marine Binoculars 8x30 -- quick research suggests I can see 600 yards with the binos, but I am unsure if this means it doesn't look like blurry nothing or if I can track shot placement?
You will be able to see your target at 600 with 8x binos....probably. HIGHLY unlikely that you will see any holes at that range unless you have $6 million man eyes. I use a 2.5-10 scope for longer range work on my AR and I can see my impact at 100, but at 200 it gets pretty difficult. Past that it ain't happening, but I have crappy old man eyes :(
IMO you don't need to drop $3k on a scope to get quality. Under $1k you have the Vortex's that seem to be doing well as are the SWFA Super Snipers and also the Leupold Patrol series. Below $2k you can have a NF, IOR and some of the higher mag range Super Snipers. Anything above that I don't even look at seriously cause my wife would use the scope to bludgeon me for busting the family budget. Good news is she could still sell it undamaged after the fact and recoup some $$ :)
Think about how much you're willing to spend on a scope and how long you're willing to wait to save that up. That was my strategy. I looked at my realities and decided that around $1k was what was acceptable to spend on a hobby item. That down selected a lot back then. From then I just went through and looked at scopes that met my needs and low and behold the IOR 2.5-10 FFP mil-mil fit right in.
You will be able to see your target at 600 with 8x binos....probably. HIGHLY unlikely that you will see any holes at that range unless you have $6 million man eyes. I use a 2.5-10 scope for longer range work on my AR and I can see my impact at 100, but at 200 it gets pretty difficult. Past that it ain't happening, but I have crappy old man eyes :(
IMO you don't need to drop $3k on a scope to get quality. Under $1k you have the Vortex's that seem to be doing well as are the SWFA Super Snipers and also the Leupold Patrol series. Below $2k you can have a NF, IOR and some of the higher mag range Super Snipers. Anything above that I don't even look at seriously cause my wife would use the scope to bludgeon me for busting the family budget. Good news is she could still sell it undamaged after the fact and recoup some $$ :)
Think about how much you're willing to spend on a scope and how long you're willing to wait to save that up. That was my strategy. I looked at my realities and decided that around $1k was what was acceptable to spend on a hobby item. That down selected a lot back then. From then I just went through and looked at scopes that met my needs and low and behold the IOR 2.5-10 FFP mil-mil fit right in.
GREAT feedback! Our wives must have been sisters in a past life :) Thx
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