View Full Version : Best production gun for "range games"
This question is prompted by a recent question asked of one of the SME's. The question asked was which is the top 5 combat handgun.
I would like to know just the opposite. For a handgun whose sole purpose is to be used by the "weekend range enthusiast" for the purpose of action game type matches such as Steel, IDPA, EDIT : and a consideration towards accuracy oriented bullseye type ( but not formal Bullseye matches ) etc..
What is your opinion of the single top handgun.
Criteria should consider in no order except item 1.
1. Accuracy with least training
-- Ease of handling
-- Practical affordability
-- suitability to task ( which is often timed accuracy / high round count 25 - 40 in a string )
-- Provided it is generally reliable. 100% reliability is not needed should other features outweigh, especially if there is an "after-market cure" so to speak.
-- concern for game gun platform vs life saving platform is not a criteria.
I personally like to shoot a 1911 and it fits many of those criteria but will never out shoot handguns with high count mags in these scenarios. I also recall once shooting what I seem to recall was a Sig or Baretta and recall I shot it very well. So it was inherently accurate even in untrained hands. I also know I have had problems controlling a Glock.
So with those thoughts and criteria and absolutely zero notion towards every day carry or combat and that mindset. Is there a handgun that lends itself to this end more so than another.
My reason for asking is that I would like to get a full sized production oriented game gun and there are a lot of offerings out there that I simply have not considered beyond the "just get a Glock" mentality.
I've read the post and have seen the references to Glocks. Can you elaborate on what you meant by you had trouble controlling a Glock? Also can you state what model Glock you were using. A 23 is obviously harder to control than a 17. So I am just curious.
blasternank
01-22-12, 08:57
I love my glocks. I have absolutely no problem "controlling them". In fact I usually smoke everyone in steel, etc. with my glock 17. But to answer your question the person for steel, idpa, range fun gun would be either a glock or springfield xd and S&W M&P or a FNP. All of these are more than accurate for what you listed and completely reliable not to mention hi cap mags are reasonable.
You can't go wrong with any of these. Go and try them out or see which one feels best in your hands and go from there. Everyone has a preference for what feels good in their hands so try them out and see which fits you better and that will be the gun I'd go with as all of them shoot great.
It was indeed a Glock 23.
But by all means if you think a Glock 17 in your opinion is the answer to the question, that's fine.
I'm simply trying to determine if there is a pistol out there that doesn't get talked about much but would indeed be an excellent choice for this scenario.
'
I'm not in any way knocking Glock. I'm not knocking anything. Clean slate. Zero knowledge. Intended use.
Thanks blasternank. I appreciate your answer. It';s great advice and believe me, I've read many a thread with a similar answer.
What I was really looking for here is for each individual to choose 1 pistol. Brand and model minimum. That in their opinion is their -single- final choice (even if it's not what they currently use ).
and then maybe give a short reason as to why. Maybe it's personal, maybe price, whatever.
But just a single pistol.
I have a Glock 23 a Glock 17 and an M&P9pro. I have been primarily running my m&p in competitions and most of my training time. I have had some problems with it due to the items I've added. I added them due to a mushy trigger and liked the Glocks trigger so much more.
I shot the m&p really well but recently started running the 17 and I'm doing as well with it and it's completely stock. I like the longer sight radius the m&p has with the 5" barrel. But I think I've made the decision to switch to Glocks primarily.
All that being said, I do no have one but I would probably advise based on your info to go with a Glock 34. You can read about them very where so I won't elaborate. But 9mm, good trigger, long sight radius.
My $0.02:
I am a huge 1911 fanboy and still own a few Ed browns, sold Wilson's, NHC's and Baer...finally came to some of the same conclusions you did.
For getting the most out of ANY pistol, it is worth having a top tier smith work their magic, with solid high perf parts. Same as the old COLT 1911 days...reliability, feel and performance focused mods do wonders.
If I were you, I would go polymer and stay clear of Beretta (fire controls hell for most) and Sig (well thought of and sed in SO circles, they have pretty bad double/single triggers and require more practiced skills than most care to invest). it goes without saying, don't even speak of Taurus or other 2nd tier TOS endorsed crap.
Therefore, I recommend:
1) M&P tuned up (Apex is amazing, closest plastic pistol to 1911 I've shot: FSS +RAM). Bowie and Burwell do really nice smithing work on triggers too. M&P9 VTAC just back from Apex and Burwell M&P45 is great as well
2) HK P30/45: I loved my HK's, but poor . service and mediocre triggers (at best (LEM)) slipped them into second place for me. My current philosophy is buy an M&P, tune it, buy ammo and train.
3) Glock tuned up: Glockmeister does great work, love my 21 and 29's they did. Robar is is top notch as well. My chief complaint is a awkward grip angle relative to 1911's.
4) Springfield XDm: not a huge fan personally, but some buddies love them and shoot 'em very well. Never got over the designed and made in Croatia thing...I know, get over it. Maybe some day.
Like a$$holes and elbows, everybody has an opinion-this is mine.
The G34 absolutely rules IDPA SSP and USPSA Production class (or the 40 with minor loads works as well and lets you shoot major in other USPSA divisions ) .
Depending on how far you want/can go accuracy wise the Wilson match barrels I hear tighten the groups as well, but unless your shooting real bullseye matches the stock glock is plenty accurate enough for 10 rings at 25 if the user can do his part.
Gary1911A1
01-22-12, 10:25
I shoot USPSA Production and the two pistols I see the most of are Glocks, the 34 seems to have the best features, and the M&P also in 9mm with most preferring the longer slide. One feature both have is a low bore for less muzzle flip which I feel is important for competition, but not as much on the street.
I can't believe I've never even heard of the 34. then again, I don't keep up with things, thus this thread. that looks like a very nice deal.
So on that Wilson barrel... is that a drop in or send it off to a pro?
I would consider a CZ Shadow Custom or CZ Shadow SAO for games only.
19 rd mags, 1911 like-trigger in single action, heavy steel frame that absorbs recoil and very accurate.
For "production gun" competition, why would anything other than a good carry gun even be considered? Glocks, M&P, HK and so on are designed to be shot hard and fast while still retaining good accuracy.
1. Get a Gen 1 or 2 G17 in a pawnshop for under $400.
2. Add Sevigny sights ($50-ish) and whatever game-gun trigger is fashionable these days ($150-ish). Maybe have the grip reduced ($150-ish).
3. Before you replace the barrel, test 10-15 factory loads or handloads ($75-100). One or two will shoot significantly better than the rest.
4. Read "Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals" by Brian Enos ($30).
5. Build a spare gun just like the first one.
The G34 and the G17L are also great choices.
Okie John
For a pure range gun I'd prefer the CZ75 Shadow T. It's SSP legal in IPDA unlike the SP01 Shadow.
1. Get a Gen 1 or 2 G17 in a pawnshop for under $400.
2. Add Sevigny sights ($50-ish) and whatever game-gun trigger is fashionable these days ($150-ish). Maybe have the grip reduced ($150-ish).
3. Before you replace the barrel, test 10-15 factory loads or handloads ($75-100). One or two will shoot significantly better than the rest.
4. Read "Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals" by Brian Enos ($30).
5. Build a spare gun just like the first one.
The G34 and the G17L are also great choices.
Okie John
$150 for a trigger ? Its a GLOCK, if you want to bring it down to next to nothing in the 2lb range the parts arent expensive, try under $30 for springs and connector.
Grip modifications will put you out of SSP in IDPA and into ESP , and modifiactions are limited on USPSA Prododuction class. Grip tape works well and is safe to stay in division across the games.
Brian Enos's book is an amazing read, just be forwarned A LOT of it will sail right over a newer shooter or even experianced shooter/ new competitors head.
You might want to look at the survey of shooter equipment from the IDPA Nationals...here's an article about it (http://gunnuts.net/2011/11/28/idpa-world-championship-equipment/)...
To sum up the article, the Glock 34 and 17 dominate IDPA by a significant margin. Considering the current GEN4 issues, I'd stick with a GEN3 gun. Personally I wouldn't bother replacing the OEM barrel or trigger unless you can out shoot the stock pistol. I think the Glock '-' connector that is installed in the G34 is an excellent start to a trigger, and simply polishing key components smooths the trigger out significantly without investing more than time and a tub of polish. Here's an excellent DIY Gear Scout article (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/01/01/glock-setup-tips/) on improving the Glock trigger.
The OEM sights have got to go - as suggested earlier simply replace with some manner of Warrens.
If you're shooting IDPA why not use your 1911 for CDP?
The 17 would get my vote with stock trigger and FO.
This question is prompted by a recent question asked of one of the SME's. The question asked was which is the top 5 combat handgun.
I would like to know just the opposite. For a handgun whose sole purpose is to be used by the "weekend range enthusiast" for the purpose of action game type matches such as Steel, IDPA, EDIT : and a consideration towards accuracy oriented bullseye type ( but not formal Bullseye matches ) etc..
What is your opinion of the single top handgun.
Criteria should consider in no order except item 1.
1. Accuracy with least training
-- Ease of handling
-- Practical affordability
-- suitability to task ( which is often timed accuracy / high round count 25 - 40 in a string )
-- Provided it is generally reliable. 100% reliability is not needed should other features outweigh, especially if there is an "after-market cure" so to speak.
-- concern for game gun platform vs life saving platform is not a criteria.
I personally like to shoot a 1911 and it fits many of those criteria but will never out shoot handguns with high count mags in these scenarios. I also recall once shooting what I seem to recall was a Sig or Baretta and recall I shot it very well. So it was inherently accurate even in untrained hands. I also know I have had problems controlling a Glock.
So with those thoughts and criteria and absolutely zero notion towards every day carry or combat and that mindset. Is there a handgun that lends itself to this end more so than another.
My reason for asking is that I would like to get a full sized production oriented game gun and there are a lot of offerings out there that I simply have not considered beyond the "just get a Glock" mentality.
just caught this.
Go shoot some games before you buy anything.
You arent competing against high cap, or ported, or RDS guns unless you are shooting one too. Their are divisions, and just like formula 1 cars dont compete against nascar (do I have my analogoy right? ) so GLOCK's and M&P's will be in a different divsion normally than 1911's.
Sti 2011 :) but forreal for myself the Glock 34 worked better than I could ask for.
If the M&P and Glock don't work for you try a Springfield XD. They make 5" models also.
I just use a Glock 19 for everything. I'm not super competitive but I do fairly decent with it.
I bought a Glock 34 a couple of months ago and I went back to my Gen4 19 today (Steel Challenge) and I really felt better shooting the 19. I'm not sure why but the 34 just does not shoot as well for me.
I've wasted THOUSANDS on 1911s and I just never did trust them completely. In turn, I didn't enjoy shooting 'em that much.
What is your primary goal?
Do you want to truly be competitive? Or, do you want to simply have fun playing the game?
If you want to compete, pick up what you've got and go out to a match. See what looks "fun" to you and spend a boatload of ammunition and money on training and practice.
If you dont want to compete, why not simply shoot the 1911's in CDP or USPSA single stack?
No one is going to be able to tell you what the "best" is as that is highly subjective.
Any modern duty grade polymer pistol can rip splits as fast as a human can press the trigger. Having said that, some are better suited towards doing this more accurately. Ultimately, that will be up to you to figure out as EVERYONES hand is different.
Thanks guys, lots of info here much of which is also new for me.
Right now I am just starting to in steel matches. I understand I am not competing against anything other than the single stack category.
This coming year I would like to have the option of shooting something other than single stack and also try out some IDPA.
I'll definitely check out that book.
I'm just interested in hearing opinions of what and why people have chosen various things so I can do a little educated exploring into what is likely to work well and make me happy.
$150 for a trigger ? Its a GLOCK, if you want to bring it down to next to nothing in the 2lb range the parts arent expensive, try under $30 for springs and connector.
Even better. I stand corrected.
Okie John
I've been heavily involved in IDPA for the past 12 years, up to being the Asst. Match Director for the 2011 IDPA World Shoot. I can tell you that the top 5 handguns in no particular order are:
Glock
1911
S&W M&P
CZ 75
Springfield XD
No other pistol even comes close to these 5.
nineteenkilo
01-22-12, 20:07
It seems as though Glock has been covered well enough. Great guns that are fairly cheap to mod if you find it necessary.
My vote will go to the HK USP. I have found that Glocks do not fit my hands in a way that feels 'right'. I can score fairly well with them, but they just aren't 'it' for me. The USP fits me perfectly and I shoot the best with it. You really have to go out of your way to cause any action problems unless you limp-wrist it. The downside is that magazines are not terribly cheap and they are not as common as the Glocks.
If it is at all possible, go to a range that rents firearms and shoot a few. I think that you'll find a couple that just feel good and one that just calls to you.
It seems as though Glock has been covered well enough. Great guns that are fairly cheap to mod if you find it necessary.
My vote will go to the HK USP. I have found that Glocks do not fit my hands in a way that feels 'right'. I can score fairly well with them, but they just aren't 'it' for me. The USP fits me perfectly and I shoot the best with it. You really have to go out of your way to cause any action problems unless you limp-wrist it. The downside is that magazines are not terribly cheap and they are not as common as the Glocks.
If it is at all possible, go to a range that rents firearms and shoot a few. I think that you'll find a couple that just feel good and one that just calls to you.
A good shooter will shoot anything well.
Having said that, a good shooter will shoot better with a gun that is "easier" to shoot.
An HK USP is not one of them.
Small mag release
High bore axis (meh, good shooters could shoot a barn if it had a trigger)
Hard to get spare parts
Hard to tune the gun to your EXACT specifications/requirements
Very few sight options
Few "race" holster options.
Expensive spare magazines
Short of getting a police trade in, these guns are somewhat expensive.
There are other WAY better options out there.
To the OP.
Get out there, join a club, make friends. Ask to see competitors guns. Watch what the top guys are shooting. Ask questions.
Be a part of the sport and be open minded. Pick what interests you and have fun.
Fairly large gun which does NOT fit all hands.
Get out there, join a club, make friends. Ask to see competitors guns. Watch what the top guys are shooting. Ask questions.
Oh, I'm already doing that. What I hear though...here is what I see.
The pros with STI race guns which I don't want.
The beginners which have the basics mentioned here.
Then the decent shooters and I swear almost every one I talk to says... Well I'm shooting this but I'm seriously changing to X or I want to change such and such.
I'm actually liking what I'm hearing about the G34. I know Glock will always have a big following for parts, service, after market tweaks, etc. also. ... and I've always heard good things about a G17 and G19 although I think I want to go with the longer barrel.
It would have taken me until next Fall to get this kind of information just picking up things at matches.
Oh, I'm already doing that. What I hear though...here is what I see.
The pros with STI race guns which I don't want.
The beginners which have the basics mentioned here.
Then the decent shooters and I swear almost every one I talk to says... Well I'm shooting this but I'm seriously changing to X or I want to change such and such.
I'm actually liking what I'm hearing about the G34. I know Glock will always have a big following for parts, service, after market tweaks, etc. also. ... and I've always heard good things about a G17 and G19 although I think I want to go with the longer barrel.
It would have taken me until next Fall to get this kind of information just picking up things at matches.
I started with a G-34 and ran it through 2006, where I placed 16th overall at the 06 IDPA Nationals. I run Bar-Sto barrels and Dawson FO sights, with a .25 cent trigger job on a 3.5# connector. I also use Tru-Grip grit tape on the frame.
I went to an M&P .40 shooting minor loads in 2008, but never gelled with that platform as well as the Glock.
However, in 2009 I switched to the shorter barreled G-17. I finished 11th overall out of 368 at the 09 Nationals with it. I had the inside of the magwell blended by Mike at Accurate Iron, plus the aforementioned mods on the G-34.
This is still considerably cheaper than any competitive 1911 setup and it will take you to very high levels if you do your part. Hope this helps!
I had the inside of the magwell blended by Mike at Accurate Iron
Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is a blended magwell on a glock? :confused:
I thought a blended magwell was a 1911 thing?
glock!
that said I bet in a couple years you'll find an m&p on my belt....
crazymoose
01-23-12, 04:45
Glocks and 1911s are the go-to pistols for me for any scenarios, yours included. However, I've recently purchased a Walther PPQ in 9mm, and I'm becoming very fond it it. Price is similar to the Glock (usually a bit cheaper actually), the trigger is better, and the grip is very ergonomic. Spare mags are expensive at this point, and sight options are limited. Nonetheless, all of my friends who have tried the Walther like it quite a bit.
Stop. Leave the internet. Go shoot.
I'm not kidding. Not even a little bit. You are going to get all ****ed up and wrapped up in shit that doesn't matter, or start getting horrible data points that are going to hijack your overall impressions (like the USP suggestion above, has anyone EVER been competitive with a USP?)
Go shoot what you have now. IDPA, USPSA, whatever. Just go shoot. Guys get worked up about guns & gear and get hijacked by minutiae.
Go shoot. as often as possible and in as many different types of events as possible.
I have shot the gun games for many years, at times well. When I was shooting well it was because I spent more time shooting, training with one gun. Pick something you like and train with it. You like the government model and IDPA & USPSA both have divisions for it.
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 12:41
Stop. Leave the internet. Go shoot.
I'm not kidding. Not even a little bit. You are going to get all ****ed up and wrapped up in shit that doesn't matter, or start getting horrible data points that are going to hijack your overall impressions (like the USP suggestion above, has anyone EVER been competitive with a USP?)
Go shoot what you have now. IDPA, USPSA, whatever. Just go shoot. Guys get worked up about guns & gear and get hijacked by minutiae.
Go shoot. as often as possible and in as many different types of events as possible.
Not to be a dick as I usually respect what you have to say. In this case, you're full of shit. I compete regularly with an HK and do well as does most of TeamHK. I'd say they are noteworthy when it comes to the competitive shooting realm.
If you'll notice, I didn't endorse the HK for anyone other than myself because it works for me. I told him to go to a range and find what works for him. I even advised that parts and costs were up there above other weapons.
If I read it wrong then just forget I said it.
Not to be a dick, but you said your vote goes to said gun. And the topic is best gun for range games and the question isn't user specific but gun specific.
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 12:58
My reason for asking is that I would like to get a full sized production oriented game gun and there are a lot of offerings out there that I simply have not considered beyond the "just get a Glock" mentality.
Not to be a dick, but you said your vote goes to said gun. And the topic is best gun for range games and the question isn't user specific but gun specific.
Are you sure you're reading the same thread I am?
Topic of thread:Best production gun for range games.
First post in regards to the question in the topic:
My vote will go to the HK USP.
Separate post:
If you'll notice, I didn't endorse the HK for anyone other than myself because it works for me.
This thread? Where you said these things? I was just saying you gave a vote for HK.
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 13:22
I did suggest something beyond the 'get a glock mentality'. Sorry. I thought that's what the OP wanted and was suggesting we contribute.
No hard feelings.
I had no problems with your suggested gun, and looking past a single option is what this is all about. You just said someone was full of shit, and said you only endorsed it for yourself. Which was a contradiction.
I said "not to be a dick", it's like "with all due respect" to an officer. Ha.
No hard feelings on this end either.
Forgive my ignorance, but what on earth is a blended magwell on a glock? :confused:
I thought a blended magwell was a 1911 thing?
To be legal in SSP in IDPA, the gun can have no "external" modifications. It can however have internal mods, so the Glock can have the inside of the magwell blended to ever so slightly improve reload characteristics. I don't have a pic of my SSP G-17 magwell, but here's what it looks like on my CDP G-21SF:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG4550.jpg
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 13:51
I had no problems with your suggested gun, and looking past a single option is what this is all about. You just said someone was full of shit, and said you only endorsed it for yourself. Which was a contradiction.
I said "not to be a dick", it's like "with all due respect" to an officer. Ha.
No hard feelings on this end either.
Man I am a douche sometimes. That's probably why I lurk a lot and post a little. My bad.
Not to be a dick as I usually respect what you have to say. In this case, you're full of shit. I compete regularly with an HK and do well as does most of TeamHK. I'd say they are noteworthy when it comes to the competitive shooting realm.
If you'll notice, I didn't endorse the HK for anyone other than myself because it works for me. I told him to go to a range and find what works for him. I even advised that parts and costs were up there above other weapons.
If I read it wrong then just forget I said it.
Does the current TeamHK compete in IDPA? The reason I ask is that I've never seen them at any of the premier IDPA events. Perhaps they only compete regionally or locally? I know the old TeamHK comprised of the Columbia, MO SWAT team only competed regionally, with one trip to the Nationals back in 2002. I competed against them several times. They did ok, but they rarely won.
I'm sure the HK pistols are good guns in some respects, but they are not normally seen at the top of the standings in action pistol matches. Out of 392 shooters at the 2010 IDPA Nationals, there were only 2 HK's in attendance, one of which was a P7M13 shot by a guy who only shoots strong hand. The other was a USP .45. There were only 2 Rugers, 4 Berettas and 5 Sigs for the same reason there were only two HK's. They simply don't handle well enough at speed for most shooters to win with them. The guns I listed above do win, and in all classes and divisions. Their much higher representation in major matches is not a result of faddish behavior. They work and they do it at speed, which is not something every handgun excels at.
I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, but the information I'm presenting is accurate. There's nothing wrong with liking your preferred platform, so long as it works for you. And as Rob stated, trigger time is more critical than anything equipment related.
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 14:24
No bubble bursting here. I know full well the limitations of the HK platform. I was simply trying to give the OP what I thought he wanted - something other than a Glock.
There is no doubt that the Glock is the first choice among many competitive shooters.
just caught this.
Go shoot some games before you buy anything.
You arent competing against high cap, or ported, or RDS guns unless you are shooting one too. Their are divisions, and just like formula 1 cars dont compete against nascar (do I have my analogoy right? ) so GLOCK's and M&P's will be in a different divsion normally than 1911's.
what he said ,why shoot something like a 1911 when you can shoot a 1911?1911 different class
Ok, I probably caused the confusion.
When I said "just get a Glock" I did not mean that I would not choose a Glock.
Probably what I should have said was "Just get a gun".
What I was looking for was specifics. I wanted a narrow field for a system -other than what I already have-.
I will not stop shooting the 1911, I simply want something in the "other white meat" platform. I have a PPS so I could shoot that, but it's not really practical and I don't think I would do very well with it.
So I can narrow my search down to things like
G34
G17
M&P Long
and I can pretty much rule out Sig, HK, Baretta, etc.
So now I have a short list to research, maybe seek out someone shooting those at the matches and see if I can get some personal info. In fact I know someone with a G17L that I'm pretty sure would let me shoot it if I ask.
I'm not trying to buck the system, nor do I expect that a single handgun will make me a better shooter overall but some are indeed more conducive to better shooting right out of the gate. At least from my experience.
I was simply curious if there is narrow spectrum that I could focus on and to be honest I like the fact that Glock is basically, cheap to outfit, easy to do simple upgrades and is top shelf with regards to being able to get the job done.
All your answers have basically given me what I need and yes I do appreciate that if I don't put the time in I will never progress no matter what end up with.
But to be clear I have nothing against Glock. I simply hated my G23. I don't ever want another .40 cal pistol. I've had two. The other HK. They are fine for someone else. I don't like them. It's just a personal thing and has nothing to do with the pistols.
Someone up the line mentioned CZ. I have held a CZ and think I actually shot it as well. Felt great. Although I seem to recall it long trigger reach IIRC. At the same time, for my intended use with the overwhelming majority not pointing in that direction, I'm not looking to re-invent the wheel.
I also have no illusions about how good I will eventually get. I'm competing against myself but I still would like an alternate to the single stack platform. I'm happy to see a lot of info points to 9mm as I like that. However, at the range... I see a -lot- of .40 being shot.
ETA: Someone up above mentioned the Glock .25cent trigger job. I assume that means the DIY polish job that was linked just prior? I was actually a little unclear on that.
Thank you all. This is exactly what I was looking for.
nineteenkilo
01-23-12, 15:16
You didn't cause any confusion. I was a douche and off-base. I thought I knew what was being asked when clearly I did not. No worries.
Says here they use the p30L anyway, not the USP.
http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/shootingTeam.asp
I have seen a lot of guys show up with a USP for their first or second match. I have never, in almost ten years of IDPA with a club that gets 60+ shooters a match, twice a month, seen or heard of anyone being remotely competitive.
Ok, I probably caused the confusion.
When I said "just get a Glock" I did not mean that I would not choose a Glock.
Probably what I should have said was "Just get a gun".
What I was looking for was specifics. I wanted a narrow field for a system -other than what I already have-.
I will not stop shooting the 1911, I simply want something in the "other white meat" platform. I have a PPS so I could shoot that, but it's not really practical and I don't think I would do very well with it.
So I can narrow my search down to things like
G34
G17
M&P Long
and I can pretty much rule out Sig, HK, Baretta, etc.
So now I have a short list to research, maybe seek out someone shooting those at the matches and see if I can get some personal info. In fact I know someone with a G17L that I'm pretty sure would let me shoot it if I ask.
I'm not trying to buck the system, nor do I expect that a single handgun will make me a better shooter overall but some are indeed more conducive to better shooting right out of the gate. At least from my experience.
I was simply curious if there is narrow spectrum that I could focus on and to be honest I like the fact that Glock is basically, cheap to outfit, easy to do simple upgrades and is top shelf with regards to being able to get the job done.
All your answers have basically given me what I need and yes I do appreciate that if I don't put the time in I will never progress no matter what end up with.
But to be clear I have nothing against Glock. I simply hated my G23. I don't ever want another .40 cal pistol. I've had two. The other HK. They are fine for someone else. I don't like them. It's just a personal thing and has nothing to do with the pistols.
Someone up the line mentioned CZ. I have held a CZ and think I actually shot it as well. Felt great. Although I seem to recall it long trigger reach IIRC. At the same time, for my intended use with the overwhelming majority not pointing in that direction, I'm not looking to re-invent the wheel.
I also have no illusions about how good I will eventually get. I'm competing against myself but I still would like an alternate to the single stack platform. I'm happy to see a lot of info points to 9mm as I like that. However, at the range... I see a -lot- of .40 being shot.
ETA: Someone up above mentioned the Glock .25cent trigger job. I assume that means the DIY polish job that was linked just prior? I was actually a little unclear on that.
Thank you all. This is exactly what I was looking for.
The Glock has all the fan base and support in the world. The .25 cent trigger job is just that, Google it and you'll be able to do it yourself. Add a 3.5# connector and you're done. I've watched shooters chase the mythical beast known as the "perfect Glock trigger" for a LONG time. Most of them invariably cause more problems that they solve. We've DQ'd quite a few shooters over the years for illegal or unsafe modified Glock triggers. One exception would probably be the Vanek triggers. Charlie does a good job and I've been impressed with the results. Not impressed enough to spend $130 mind you, but they're good. Shooters who shoot my Glocks tend to comment on the scuzzy trigger and wonder how I finish so well with it. I rarely clean it and just keep adding oil, and I shoot it a LOT.
The Glock not a bad choice, but I still look for the next great gun, probably more because I dislike Glock as a company, not the gun itself. I ran a Wilson KZ-45 in 04 and came in 3rd in CDP division behind Robbie Leatham and Greg Martin (Wilson's long time factory shooter). I tried the M&P for a whole year before I decided it wasn't for me. Well, I knew about 6 months in but I detest changing guns mid-season. I've tried Todd Jarrett's old Para LDA with a freakish 1.25# LDA trigger. I've shot one of Ernest Langdon's Beretta 92's and handled his Sig P-220 when he shot for them (Ernie's one of those rare guys who can win with whatever you put in his hands. He's no one trick pony.) I've shot Matt Mink's CZ SP-01 and I've pretty much watched all the pro's run tough courses with a timer in my hand. I'll be running a Colt Rail Gun this year, but I have no illusions about it being as competitive for me as the Glock. What I have discovered is how much better it conceals for me than my G-19, despite being larger and heavier. The lines just lend themselves to concealment, and ultimately I'm in this for CCW practice.
The G-17/34 and M&P are the two guns I'd try first, but you should get your hands on some of the others if you can. One thing I've discovered is that just because it feels great in your hand doesn't mean it will shoot great for you. I much preferred the "feel" of the M&P, but reluctantly went back to the Glock because the results spoke for themselves. Good luck and I hope you find the combination that will allow you to excel. :)
I just noticed your from henrico,you have access to alot of matches down there,monday nights at dominion,blackcreek, cavalier and soon the new range on west broad most people will be more then happy to let you fondle there junk.where are you shooting matches now?
ETA: Someone up above mentioned the Glock .25cent trigger job. I assume that means the DIY polish job that was linked just prior? I was actually a little unclear on that.
The DIY article I linked to and the .25 cent trigger job are essentially the same in all important respects. The Gear Scout article (http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2012/01/01/glock-setup-tips/) has the advantage of excellent pictures.
I'm happy to see a lot of info points to 9mm as I like that. However, at the range... I see a -lot- of .40 being shot.
This is one of those cases where which sport you are planning to compete in matters for caliber selection. IDPA shooters don't really benefit from 'power factor', so the 9mm is the dominant cartridge in the Stock Service Pistol (SSP) category. Depending on what Division you shoot in USPSA/IPSC, it might matter.
One of the great things about 9mm is that it is economical to shoot, and therefore, practice with. I've found .40 is significantly more expensive, and the only .40 shooters I know at this point are issued .40 pistols and don't pay for their practice ammo.
Glock 34/35 and a 1911 should let you shoot every game out there and any division.
Thanks again for all the additions.
@cdunn I am a member of Blackcreek so I shoot those matches. I have only shot 4 so far I think. I'm not very good at it but I like it. I was short on mags and mag carriers so far but have bought some extras.
I just recently, by total accident found out from someone that Dominion has IDPA. I always thought Dominon required the use of their ammo but was told for those night matches, that is not the case. I was also told you don't need to be a member of IDPA which didn't make sense. Do you know the story on that? I'm not concerned with official matches anyway.
I had forgot to check out Caviler but this is the first I've heard of a range on West Broad. I'm right near there. I've heard a radio commercial about some range but thought it was something in south Chesterfield. Have you got any more information on this new one?
This is one of those cases where which sport you are planning to compete in matters for caliber selection. IDPA shooters don't really benefit from 'power factor', so the 9mm is the dominant cartridge in the Stock Service Pistol (SSP) category. Depending on what Division you shoot in USPSA/IPSC, it might matter.
One of the great things about 9mm is that it is economical to shoot, and therefore, practice with. I've found .40 is significantly more expensive, and the only .40 shooters I know at this point are issued .40 pistols and don't pay for their practice ammo.
This is overly complicating things. People should not be led to believe that they will not be competitive with 9mm in USPSA. This gives too many people an excuse to hem and haw and not get out there and shoot.
NOBODY is going to be competitive out of the gate. The most important thing is to get out there and shoot and not give yourself excuses for why you can't.
This is overly complicating things. People should not be led to believe that they will not be competitive with 9mm in USPSA. This gives too many people an excuse to hem and haw and not get out there and shoot.
NOBODY is going to be competitive out of the gate. The most important thing is to get out there and shoot and not give yourself excuses for why you can't.
Rob - I think we're actually in agreement here. I'm not sure what about my post suggested to you that 9mm isn't competitive in USPSA, and that wasn't what I was trying to convey. Shoot USPSA Production and it doesn't matter a bit.
My point about the economy of 9mm ammunition is to encourage exactly your point - go out and shoot more. 9mm allows more shooting and more practice than .40 - at least from a budget standpoint.
Rob - I think we're actually in agreement here. I'm not sure what about my post suggested to you that 9mm isn't competitive in USPSA, and that wasn't what I was trying to convey. Shoot USPSA Production and it doesn't matter a bit.
My point about the economy of 9mm ammunition is to encourage exactly your point - go out and shoot more. 9mm allows more shooting and more practice than .40 - at least from a budget standpoint.
IME most people that ask questions like the ones being posed in this thread are looking for reasons NOT to go. What tripped my trigger was this statement.
This is one of those cases where which sport you are planning to compete in matters for caliber selection. IDPA shooters don't really benefit from 'power factor', so the 9mm is the dominant cartridge in the Stock Service Pistol (SSP) category. Depending on what Division you shoot in USPSA/IPSC, it might matter.
That's the kind of statement that the guy looking for reasons not to go is going to hang on and think "oh, well, see, I need a special gun for these matches, I better just stay home until I have it."
The most important thing is getting out and shooting. Bring a ****ing revolver if that's all you have. Get your holster squared away (I don't think out local IDPA club even allows those Uncle Mikes nylon abortions anymore), and go shoot!
I read something the other day that said everyone should have a cause. Since I think charity is horseshit, I chose as my cause getting more people out on the range and actually shooting their guns! :D
IME most people that ask questions like the ones being posed in this thread are looking for reasons NOT to go. What tripped my trigger was this statement.
That's the kind of statement that the guy looking for reasons not to go is going to hang on and think "oh, well, see, I need a special gun for these matches, I better just stay home until I have it."
The most important thing is getting out and shooting. Bring a ****ing revolver if that's all you have. Get your holster squared away (I don't think out local IDPA club even allows those Uncle Mikes nylon abortions anymore), and go shoot!
I read something the other day that said everyone should have a cause. Since I think charity is horseshit, I chose as my cause getting more people out on the range and actually shooting their guns! :D
"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter."
Gotcha - I see where you're coming from. We're in violent agreement - you don't need an aftermarket barrel, a fancy trigger and a custom grip reduction. Instead, buy some ammo and go shoot.
Thanks again for all the additions.
@cdunn I am a member of Blackcreek so I shoot those matches. I have only shot 4 so far I think. I'm not very good at it but I like it. I was short on mags and mag carriers so far but have bought some extras.
I just recently, by total accident found out from someone that Dominion has IDPA. I always thought Dominon required the use of their ammo but was told for those night matches, that is not the case. I was also told you don't need to be a member of IDPA which didn't make sense. Do you know the story on that? I'm not concerned with official matches anyway.
I had forgot to check out Caviler but this is the first I've heard of a range on West Broad. I'm right near there. I've heard a radio commercial about some range but thought it was something in south Chesterfield. Have you got any more information on this new one?
http://colonialshooting.com/
cavalier has good idpa matches every month,good people there
I don't think its idpa just something like it.,look at monday defensive pistol
http://www.dominionshootingrange.com/
some of the same people shoot @black creek and cavalier,one of the guys who puts on the maches at blackcreek does but I forgot his name.also look here http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/VAIDPA/
Thanks guys.
@cdunn, I know the main guy that runs the Blaccreek stuff so I'll ask him about Caviler. I used to belong to Hanover Rifle and Pistol and was really getting interested in matches until that got messed up and finally sold.
Ok, I know where the new range will be now. Wow, I can't believe I haven't seen that but I rarely go through that stretch of Broad St. Kinda pricey membership.
I've considered joining Cavalier and have had several people say they would sponsor me. Might have to think about that. I find myself near Blackcreek more often so it makes sense now.
I wish I could find somewhere to shoot more practical stuff instead of just static target work.
@rob_s and JSGlock34
I understand where you are each coming from. In fact that's what I'm trying to do. I've been through the "buy stuff" phase and am simply now trying to get "one of each" so to speak, so I can forget about chasing hardware.
Pretty much every weapon I have now has one purpose. What I like to do though is research everything out and just buy the "refined" version of whatever that may be. My 1911 is not top of the line but it's damn good for what I need. I want a 9mm for similar reasons.
I'm looking to cut to the chase. When I buy the pistol, I'm buying all the mags I need, holster, mag carriers, etc and that's it. Done. The rest will be on my shoulders to simply perform.
I actually like a lot of what I'm hearing on the G34 not so much because it's used by the pros but because it's affordable, already tweaked up a bit and I don't need to chase anything else.
Plus I have to load for my PPS so I'm already loading 9mm. Or beginning to anyway. I don't like my first choice for a load so if I'll be chasing anything it will be getting accurate hand loads.
Plus I have to load for my PPS so I'm already loading 9mm. Or beginning to anyway. I don't like my first choice for a load so if I'll be chasing anything it will be getting accurate hand loads.
Want accurate 9mm loads? Montana Gold JHP's and TiteGroup powder. My pet load for IDPA is a 115gr MG JHP over 3.9gr of TG. OAL of 1.1" and crimp to .377" with whatever brass you use. I use Federal primers, but any brand will do.
One thing I like is the Hornady seating die. It has a floating seating stem that seats on the bullet ogive rather than the tip. This gives a more concentric round and I don't have to change settings when going between match JHP's and cheap plated round nose for practice.
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