View Full Version : What's the point in the m4s any more ?
I am personally not interested in an RDS at the moment but I have to ask why would any one go with an Aimpoint M4S over a 2 MOA T 1 ?
I just can't see any real pros. Is there any chance that the M4S reticle could be more defined than the 2 MOA T1 ?
Apricotshot
01-22-12, 20:52
Tube size and a more robust housing?
Do you feel like the tube size gives you a better field of view ? The longer tube appears like it could be a problem. Also the tube is thicker which won't help the peripheral vision.
The one thing that appears like it would be a pro besides the AA battery is the 30mm tube if you ever want to shoot with a magnifier.
Does the M4S have better eye relief or is it better from unconventional positions/shitty cheekwelds ?
Alaskapopo
01-22-12, 22:14
I think that full sized red dots are going to become a thing of the past. They don't really do anything that a compact red dot can't do and you save a lot of weight and bulk with the smaller units. Frankly if you don't mind more weight your better off with a low power variable scope. But this is a hotely debated topic and this is just my opinion.
Pat
My biggest issue with Aimpoint RDS optics is the bloom effect. On the T1's it occurs around setting 8 which was the lowest usable setting for me indoors or outdoors.
I have sold my T1 to buy something magnified or POSSIBLY a 2MOA RDS with magnifier.
The weight savings of the 2MOA T1 is appealing. I'm curious to know if the M4S has any benefit that users have noticed. To me the main concern is the dot looking like its spilling out at the edges. I would also like to know if the M4S offers better eye relief and is more forgiving in unconventional positions. I guess I want my cake and to eat it too.
Failure2Stop
01-23-12, 02:17
M4S has a better field of view, which really translates to more acceptable eye placement error when shooting from expedient positions.
The dot is crisper (comparing the 4MOA version, maybe the 2 MOA will be better, we'll see).
The mount is more robust.
The battery is more commonly found, more consistently produced, and less prone to failure.
Don't have to have the caps to adjust elevation and deflection.
The Mini-Aimpoints are great, don't get me wrong, and they are probably the logical choice for most users of RDSs.
Use a 20mm vs a 30mm RDS tube in a course ... see which one you like better. Personally, I don't care or the T-1 but that's in part due to the 4MOA dot. Maybe the new version would work better for me but I see no reason move away from the Eotechs or PRO. The T-1 form factor provides me with no advantage over what I'm currently using.
M4S has a better field of view, which really translates to more acceptable eye placement error when shooting from expedient positions.
The dot is crisper (comparing the 4MOA version, maybe the 2 MOA will be better, we'll see).
The mount is more robust.
The battery is more commonly found, more consistently produced, and less prone to failure.
Don't have to have the caps to adjust elevation and deflection.
The Mini-Aimpoints are great, don't get me wrong, and they are probably the logical choice for most users of RDSs.
Everything he said.
I'm still a fan of the 30mm tube Aimpoints. I have had trouble finding, or been slower to find, the dot on the various micros I have on more than one occasion in matches and classes. Why make things harder on yourself or slower?
The micros have a place, but my HD gun has a 30mm tube. I don't bother with the M4 due to cost and because I don't have a need for the things that set it apart (battery and NV) so I stick to the C3/Pro.
I use both M4s and T-1s on several different ARs. I prefer the field of view of the M4. It is easier for me to pick up quickly and from awkward shooting positions. The M4 is on my primary AR and my HD AR. The T-1 is appealing from a size/weight standpoint so I have a few on ARs that I want to keep "light" but the M4 is still my "favorite".
Here's something else...
Just like shooting at 400 yards will make shooting at 200 yards seem easy, training with a micro and then going to a 30mm tube will seem like cake. If you can get hits quickly with the 4 MOA T-1, you're going to get tighter groups more quickly with the 30mm tube.
Every time I shoot my gun with the 2 MOA C3 after training with the micro I am amazed at how much easier it is.
Although I want to hate the little dot sights, I find them to be much less distracting than the 30mms. They just "feel" like less clutter and bulk.
markm,
Do you feel the same way about the m4s ? The battery tube appears to help with the clutter issue but the thickness of the tube appears to add a little clutter.
What I liked about the t1 is that when you look through it all you really see is the dot and a small tube. This helped me focus on the target but the smaller tube actually helped me keep my peripheral open so I could still see what's going on around the target.
markm,
Do you feel the same way about the m4s ? The battery tube appears to help with the clutter issue but the thickness of the tube appears to add a little clutter.
I've spent more time with the M4s than any of them. It's just too much bulk and clutter. I tried to get to like it.
But when I shoot carbines with the little H1/T1s on them.... I find myself not wanting to rip the unit off the gun so much.
But when I shoot carbines with the little H1/T1s on them.... I find myself not wanting to rip the unit off the gun so much.
Funny, I feel the same way nowadays! I ran and trained with CompM, M2, and M3s for 10+ years and loved them until I finally transitioned to the T1. I was hesitant at first for all the same reasons posted above but once I ran it a couple times anything else just seemed too big for no good reason.
Now after a couple years and 3 T1's later all my old big tube Aimpoints are sold or on my airsoft guns or backup uppers. Oh, one M3 is on my fun M1A Scout just because I can't justify a new T1 on a gun that everyone says will fail after a couple hundred rounds anyways :p
While Urban/SBU prone may take a bit (and I mean tiny) more effort to get into, it's still far less than with a 1-4x optic. Other than that it comes up effortlessly and has much less clutter in my field of vision. Whenever I run a big tube RDS now I too have the desire to rip it off and put a T1 on, including the EOTech EXPS3 I am running on one gun just to see what the fuss is all about (been a few months and I'm still not sure...) Maybe it does take a bit more training and familiarization, but since I am doing that anyways I might as well save the weight and clutter!
Dennis.
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