Best Cleaning Compounds and Methods????

[Redmanfms]

What are the best cleaning solvents for carbon and copper fouling?

What are your techniques for employing them?

Do you have different cleaning methods for different intervals (i.e. field/range cleaning v. anal-retentive home bench cleaning, @ certain round counts, @ certain timeframes)? If so what are they?

What are the best lubes?



I think this is missing from the "Knowledge-Based Threads" FAQ and needs to be resolved (and I'm a retard who still uses CLP and a toothbrush), so hopefully this can be "the" thread.

[Bulldog1967]

Slip 2000 Carbon Cutter

and Slip 2000 lube.


End of Discussion.


Oh, and in before Pat Rogers! :D

[Telperion]

I'm also a big fan of Slip 2000 products. Their lube and cleaners are all non-hazardous, all-synthetic formulations that don't make me want to put on gloves while working with them.

[Boris]

I'm partial to the M-Pro 7 products. If you haven't, you should check them out. Their customer service is top notch too.

http://www.mp7.com/

-B

[Failure2Stop]

I used CLP for years, hell, it was free.

Switched to SLIP 2000 products a couple of years ago, haven't looked back.

Cleaning intervals-
Depends.
Generally only clean work guns before they need work (the armorers don't like to get their fingers dirty, and it helps them see some stuff). I have a bit more leeway than most mil :) .

I clean my personal ARs when the mood strikes me. It may be right after a shooting session, after a long break-in, or annually. When I do clean them I tend to get pretty anal, but lube them very well afterward.

Technique-

Bore-brush, followed by wet patch, let sit while doing the reat of the cleaning.
Carbon Cutter + AP brush on everything else.
When ready to reassemble, chamber brush, followed by bore brush, followed by dry patch. Wet patch, then bore brush, then dry patch until satisfied. I satisfy pretty fast.

When cleaning for the armorers I use a solvent tank and get really anal. I give it to them dry. When I get it back I fix what they installed wrong and get crazy with the lube.

I clean my 1911s after any rounds have gone through them.

I clean my Glocks once a year, whether they need it or not.

I only cleaned my AK right before I sold it.

[jmart]

SLIP, CLP, Carbon Cutter are all good, but an occasional use of a Copper buster is a good thing. None of the CLPs really attack copper.

Sweets, KG, BoreTech, there are a number of products that are all effective. Just follow instructions. If shooting through a chrome-lined barrel, maybe every 750-1,000 rounds or so, if SS or CM, more frequently.

[UVvis]

Might be a small departure from the norm, but I've found that I generally dislike the stronger copper cleaners. Instead I like to go with something cheap and basic like Hoppes and give it lots of time to work. As in running a wet patch through, waiting a couple days, then another wet patch.

I once left a bore very wet with Hoppes. Basically forgot about it and came back to it 6 months later. I thought I had trashed the bore, when I looked through the barrel it looked like a horrible mess. The Hoppes had floated out lots of carbon and dissolved a lot of the copper. The first patch or two were pretty ugly, and dark blue. I really should have taken pictures, I was amazed that it was possible to have that much junk in what I thought was a fairly clean bore.

[Patrick Aherne]

I use MPro 7 cleaner or Slip2000 725 for general cleaning. For a really good cleaning, or taking cosmoline of AK mags, etc. I have had good results with a solvent tank full of Brownell's D'Solve. Throw the stuff in over night and simply brush off the dirt the next day.

[Alpha Sierra]

What are the best cleaning solvents for carbon and copper fouling?


Nothing beats Remington Bore Clean for scrubbing powder and carbon fouling out of bores and chambers. It is an abrasive media (appropriate for barrel steels) suspended in solvent.

For copper, alternating applications of Rem Bore Clean and Sweet's will remove the most stubborn fouling.

I lubricate with CLP or lightweight fully syntethic motor oil (brand unimportant).

[jdp710]

I use to use CLP but switched to Slip 2000 and I haven't looked back.

[Littlelebowski]

Nothing beats Remington Bore Clean for scrubbing powder and carbon fouling out of bores and chambers. It is an abrasive media (appropriate for barrel steels) suspended in solvent.

For copper, alternating applications of Rem Bore Clean and Sweet's will remove the most stubborn fouling.

I lubricate with CLP or lightweight fully syntethic motor oil (brand unimportant).

BAD idea for anything other than removing fouling that won't dissolve with chemical cleaners. This is a great way to clean yourself into a new barrel because you were cleaning with an abrasive.

I use Kroil to break up the carbon, once that patches clean on the end of my jag, I switch to Montana Copper Killer, and give it plenty of time to soak. Periodically I spray out the rest of the rifle with non-chlorinated brake cleaner.

I use FP10/WeaponShield for lube and am very happy with it.

[jmart]

BAD idea for anything other than removing fouling that won't dissolve with chemical cleaners. This is a great way to clean yourself into a new barrel because you were cleaning with an abrasive.


This is an internet myth from what I've been able to gather. I've never seen any tests which suggest usage of Rem Clean or JB Bore Paste (both of which use the same ingredient, but in different carriers) causes any dimensional changes within bores, and certainly not within a chrome-lined bore. The abrasive is way, way softer than the bore, wehether it's CM, SS or CL CM.

[Littlelebowski]

Grab a dab of it and see if it polishes the outside of your barrel or just read Gale McMillan's words (http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html) on the matter.

[jmart]

It's being used by many in the BR crowd. If it caused dimensional changes and affected accuracy, they would know about it.

There are opinions, yes. But I still haven't seen instrumented data which shows it causes dimensional changes.

I can use a bit of chemical polish on a patch and cause steel to brighten, that doesn't mean it changed the dimension.

[Littlelebowski]

None of the chemicals I use even bother the coating on my Sabre upper. Here's some excerpts from some very well known bench rest competitors. You will note that there is measured data on damage caused by the Remington abrasive.

I've been asked about the abrasive bore cleaners. My advice is to proceed with caution. Use JB sparingly. A JB-coated patch wrapped around bristle brush becomes more of a surface lap than a cleaning agent. I've seen people actually lap a taper in their bore using JB on a patch. You want to clean your barrel, not change its dimensions! I'd just put JB on a bristle brush if you feel compelled to use it.


I've also personally witnessed the damage that can be done with over-aggressive cleaning. I had one barrel that I cleaned using Rem-Clean on a patch over a brass brush. (Rem-Clean is an abrasive similar to JB.) I made 10 round-trips through the bore, running the brush just a bit past the muzzle on each cycle. Then I went out and shot the gun. The groups were terrible and the last two inches of the barrel was packed with copper. I inspected what had been a nice shiny, sharp crown and it looked like it had been bead-blasted. I then measured the bore diameter at the crown and found that the groove dimension had increased .0002" (two ten-thousandths). I ended up cutting a half-inch off the barrel and recrowning it, but the barrel still shot very poorly. It basically had been ruined for competitive purposes.


"I normally go 80-95 rounds between cleanings. My 30BR is capable of .068" MOA accuracy and I've seen no drop off in accuracy for 100 rounds or more. I've seen barrels ruined with abrasive cleaners."


I discourage the use of abrasives. JB is a 1200-grit lapping compound. When you use it aggressively, some of that black you see on the patch is barrel steel. JB and Rem-Clean can remove steel and, in my opinion, used to excess, these products will decrease the life of the barrel.



I developed my cleaning method after seeing the effects of over-cleaning during a prairie dog shoot in South Dakota, on the Wyoming border. I took the throat right out of two brand new Hart barrels using Rem Clean and brushes too aggressively. That Rem Clean took about 1.5" of lands right out of one barrel. Ever since then I've steered away from cleaning often and aggressively.

[jmart]

BR shooters measure barrel lifetime in the ability to shoot in the .1's and .2's. Once it goes beyond that level, it's time to rebarrel. I'm pretty sure if we could routinely shoot in the .5's and .6's, we'd be be pretty happy.

I checked your link. Many of the barrel makers recommended limiting the use of abrasives, but they didn't reject them wholesale. Also, many admitted barrel life was tracked to throat wear. Shooting hundreds of rounds at 50,000 psi and high temps causes much more erosion than running some JB on patch 25-35 strokes through a barrel every 500 rounds. And I'm sure the quote you posted above, about the prarie dog shoot, I guess we're supposed to believe that shooting the prairie dogs in a "target rich environment" had no affect on throat, and all wear was attributable to the use of Rem Clean. Hmmmm, OK.

What I'd like to see: grab a new barrel, let's pick a chrome lined one. Air gauge it and determine diameter consistency through the barrel. Also, use a bore scope (and if the technology exists, map the dimensions). Then go at it with JB or Rem Clean. Use a patch on a worn bristle brush, apply JB and stroke barrel 25-50 times. Reapply and repeat. Do this for 5,000 - 10,000 strokes. Air gauge the barrel again and repeat the bore scoping and remapping. I'd wager the amount of dimensional change would be a fraction of what the original air gauge deltas recorded, i.e., you might see some dimensional changes in the 10,000'ths, whereas the original air gauging showed greater uniformity deltas from breach-to-muzzle was worse. Just a WAG on my part though, until it's tested it's just a theory.

Anyway, the OP asked about cleaning, it's still my belief that occasional use of a copper cleaner is warranted every 750-1,000 rounds. Whether you use chemicals or abrasives matters not, as long as you you use the products IAW established guidelines/instructions. If you decopper at that frequency, I hardly doubt that you'll see degradation from cleaning using a bore brush and/or abrasives. The thousands of rounds you fire along the way will play a far more significant role in accuracy degradation than your choice of decoppering agent(s).

[Littlelebowski]

I agree with most of your post, however as a Wyoming native with a 22-250 that has accounted for probably thousands of prairie dogs, I don't think the shooting wore the throat that bad.

Sometimes the abrasives have their place on your bench. Not most of the time and people should be cautioned that these only need be used when chemical cleaners fail to remove the carbon. This is not a thing you do after each range session, more like yearly or simply when accuracy degrades. I

[Patrick Aherne]

BR shooters measure barrel lifetime in the ability to shoot in the .1's and .2's. Once it goes beyond that level, it's time to rebarrel. I'm pretty sure if we could routinely shoot in the .5's and .6's, we'd be be pretty happy.

Uhh, if I have a rack-grade carbine that will shoot service ammo into less than 3-4" at 100 yards, I'm happy. I don't know what you use your carbine for, but mine is used to protect my butt and the public. It doesn't need to shoot bugholes. It needs to shoot minute of face. No offense, but this is M4Carbine.net, not snipersshooters.com.

[markm]

Sweets works good for copper fouling. I've never found copper fouling to be a problem on a chrome line barrel though.

[Littlelebowski]

You misconstrue, Patrick. No one stated that they expected that level of accuracy out of an M4. Bench rest shooters are being quote because they are the authority on cleaning and accuracy, being on the bleeding edge as they are, that's all.

[jmart]

You misconstrue, Patrick. No one stated that they expected that level of accuracy out of an M4. Bench rest shooters are being quote because they are the authority on cleaning and accuracy, being on the bleeding edge as they are, that's all.

Correct Patrick. I was just stating the obvious. The link Littlelebowski posted took you to a bunch of BR barrel makers and competitiors and they were chiming in with their recommended cleaning regimen. My point was, even if occasional use of an abrasive is used to clean copper, even if the abrasive results in a slight wear on the barrel, our crowd can tolerate a slight accuracy degradation from any supposed wear whereas a BR shooter cannot. Once their barrels start grouping in the .3s routinely, it's shot. We'd rejoice at that level, and if our 1.4 MOA shooter degraded to a 1.7 MOA shooter, we wouldn't sweat it.

[Littlelebowski]

That's my point. Why permanently degrade accuracy when the effects of copper fouling are the same in the end as using abrasives? Instead, just soak the darned thing with solvents. After very hard use, when accuracy falls off (which would take thousands of rounds most likely) is when I'd run a nylon brush with Iosso paste on it down the barrel. Iosso is one of the least abrasive of the abrasives if that makes sense :D

Montana Copper Killer works for me. Get the bore wet with that, run a patch wet with hydrogen peroxide through it and you have a potent foaming bore cleaner.