All this talk about buffers (confused)

[308sako]

Leads me to asking why?

Heavier buffers will delay the opening of the action and lighter ones will do the opposite. It would appear that most shooters would like to have their rifles run smoothly and 100% without issues.

But I think I am missing something in all this, if a rifle or carbine or SBR functions 100% why would one change out his/her buffer to another weight profile?

Thanks

[polymorpheous]

if a rifle or carbine or SBR functions 100% why would one change out his/her buffer to another weight profile?

Thanks

You wouldn't, unless you are switching to a suppressed system, colder or hotter ammo.

[308sako]

I guess then it is a matter of balance rather than function when chasing the optimal buffer (weight)

Understood regarding the affect suppressors or different ammunition could have on the system.

Thank you for the reply.

[polymorpheous]

It's all about controlling the cyclic rate.

I run a "H" in both of my 16" mid-lengths.
The bolt locks back consistently on the rare occasion that I shoot under powered Russian ammo.

I run an "H2" in my 10.5" carbine.
If I shoot the Russian stuff through this it short strokes constantly.
If I wanted to run the cheap stuff through the 10.5" I would run a lighter buffer until I found the weight that would allow the bolt to lock back on empty.

[Clint]

Cyclic rate is a combination of three things are at work that need to be in balance.

Moving mass, spring force and gas force.

Gas force is controlled by gas port size, location and ammo loading.

[polymorpheous]

Cyclic rate is a combination of three things are at work that need to be in balance.

Moving mass, spring force and gas force.

Gas force is controlled by gas port size, location and ammo loading.

True.
But how many of these variables can be controlled by the end user?

The snake-oil bolt carriers and colored springs can change things up a bit, but how reliable are they?

Ammo and buffers are the cheapest and easiest way to control cyclic rate.
5.56 pressure ammo and a "H" buffer works well in 16" carbine and mid-length guns.

[308sako]

True.
But how many of these variables can be controlled by the end user?

Excellent point!

The snake-oil bolt carriers and colored springs can change things up a bit, but how reliable are they?

Also valid, as a smaller part of the cyclic rate control factors... I do not consider these a good approach.

Ammo and buffers are the cheapest and easiest way to control cyclic rate.

Port pressure and dwell time comes from the ammunition and port size, for the most part we cannot control the port size unless we choose to use an adjustable gas block.

5.56 pressure ammo and a "H" buffer works well in 16" carbine and mid-length guns.

Lot's of If's associated as the specific chamber and port size have major impact here. So I take this to mean when a true spec chamber and port are present.





Once again thanks, my understanding is getting clearer.

[308sako]

Cyclic rate is a combination of three things are at work that need to be in balance.

Moving mass, spring force and gas force.

Gas force is controlled by gas port size, location and ammo loading.


I guess it is that simple. Key factor is achieving the balance which equates to reliable performance and lower wear rates. I find it interesting that with only one exception I can think of (a low mass carrier) the solutions always seem to go up in weight or spring force...

[punkey71]

This touches on something I've been thinking about and would like some clarification on.

Buffer weight vs heavier spring. What is the difference between going from a standard spring and car buffer to

a. standard spring and H2 buffer
b. blue sprinco (heavy) and H buffer

How does the spring tension vs buffer weight affect the function/recoil/bolt bounce etc...? What different affect does each have on the weapon?

Just curious and looking to learn.

Thanks,
Harold


True.
But how many of these variables can be controlled by the end user?

The snake-oil bolt carriers and colored springs can change things up a bit, but how reliable are they?

Ammo and buffers are the cheapest and easiest way to control cyclic rate.
5.56 pressure ammo and a "H" buffer works well in 16" carbine and mid-length guns.

[markm]

I saw a guy who had a Carbine buffer in his silencer fitted M4.

His gun ran. But the plastic buffer tip was about mushroomed over from slamming into the back of the RE with the force of Thor's hammer.

So although his gun was running, he should have jumped up at least two buffer weights. His gun seemed to function 100%, but it definitely wasn't the right buffer.

[Terminator2003]

This touches on something I've been thinking about and would like some clarification on.

Buffer weight vs heavier spring. What is the difference between going from a standard spring and car buffer to

a. standard spring and H2 buffer
b. blue sprinco (heavy) and H buffer

How does the spring tension vs buffer weight affect the function/recoil/bolt bounce etc...? What different affect does each have on the weapon?

Just curious and looking to learn.

Thanks,
Harold

These are some great questions which I am curious about also. I started another thread asking about the correct buffer for my midlength, but these details you mention never came into the discussion.

[308sako]

This touches on something I've been thinking about and would like some clarification on.

This is still on target, thanks

Buffer weight vs heavier spring. What is the difference between going from a standard spring and car buffer to

Or should both be changed to maintain some sort of true balanced system?

a. standard spring and H2 buffer
b. blue sprinco (heavy) and H buffer

How does the spring tension vs buffer weight affect the function/recoil/bolt bounce etc...? What different affect does each have on the weapon?

I'm pretty sure that the heavier buffer weight affects the inertia which must be over come to allow the carrier to begin to move in the cycle. The heavier spring as I see it is to slow the motion of the newly energized carrier and obviously to complete the return to battery portion of the cycle.

As to bolt bounce... wow another WTHades but this is also important as I will ASSUME that bolt bounce would fall into the out of balanced system category.

Thanks for the thoughts.



Just curious and looking to learn.

Thanks,
Harold


Well done

[308sako]

I saw a guy who had a Carbine buffer in his silencer fitted M4.

His gun ran. But the plastic buffer tip was about mushroomed over from slamming into the back of the RE with the force of Thor's hammer.

So although his gun was running, he should have jumped up at least two buffer weights. His gun seemed to function 100%, but it definitely wasn't the right buffer.


Thanks for explaining an example of the need for, and the possible damage caused by an out of balance system.

Could you describe what the symptoms would be of a system being run with spring and buffer choices that were too heavy?

Thanks again

[markm]

Could you describe what the symptoms would be of a system being run with spring and buffer choices that were too heavy?


Sluggish cycle and weak ejection. Also... failure to lock back and/or failure to strip a new round/bolt over.

There's just a Chunk-Chunk feel to a gun that's over buffered.

[MarkG]

I saw a guy who had a Carbine buffer in his silencer fitted M4.

His gun ran. But the plastic buffer tip was about mushroomed over from slamming into the back of the RE with the force of Thor's hammer.

So although his gun was running, he should have jumped up at least two buffer weights. His gun seemed to function 100%, but it definitely wasn't the right buffer.

To illustrate markm's point...

Here is an example of why you shouldn't put a suppressed HK416 upper on a rare M16A2 lower (100% Colt parts - H buffer). The bolt group was coming to its usual and sudden stop at the back of the receiver extension with enough force (that of Thor's hammer) to compress the pad on the buffer to the point that the gas key was able to come into contact with the lower receiver. You couldn't fit a heavy enough buffer into the receiver extension to prevent the damage. While exaggerated, this is a perfect example of why gas piston systems are not the cats meow...

On the plus side, he now has a staked receiver extension.

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad16/phoenixarmament/Raw007.jpg

[orionz06]

But I think I am missing something in all this, if a rifle or carbine or SBR functions 100% why would one change out his/her buffer to another weight profile?

Often times people just tinker for the sake of tinkering without knowing exactly what they are doing. It is the cool thing to do to add a heavier buffer. It's tactical, it's the latest craze, and in a month or so there will be something new to come along that allows shooters to reduce the reliability of their guns.

[markm]

On the plus side, he now has a staked receiver extension.


:lol: People are going to want that service.

[Scoby]

I recently did alittle experimenting with buffers just to see what all the fuss was about and ATF recently allowed me to pickup my new suppressor. I wanted to see what worked and what didn't, suppressed and unsuppressed. I was going to post this as a separate thread but....I'm certain nobody wants to see yet another buffer thread.

As you'll see...I went around the world only to come back to where I was standing to start with. Live and learn I suppose.

For what it's worth.

Firearm:
LMT Complete Lower w/BAD Lever & CTR Stock
BCM Upper, Daniel Defense 14.5” MidLength Barrel & AAC 51T Brakeout Comp
Suppressor – AAC M4-2000
Mags – 30rd PMags (#7)
Ammo – PPU .223 75gr BTHP Match – 5 rounds fired for each configuration

Note: I normally run a BCM FA BCG, Springco CS Blue Spring and an H Buffer for this firearm and have done so through over 2k of ammo with no issues at all prior to getting the suppressor.

Configuration #1 - BCM FA BCG / Springco Blue Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

H Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

H2 Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild/maybe lighter, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions.

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag each time. Three different times, out of five rounds, the bolt stripped a round but the bolt FAILED close completely.

Configuration #2 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Std Carbine Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested three times with the same results.

Configuration #3 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Springco Blue Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested twice with the same results.

As stated before, I'm back to the BCM BCG, H buffer and Springco blue spring shooting suppressed and unsuppressed without any problems. Right where I started from.

I did take it alittle further and bought some PMC Bronze just to see if it would run weaker ammo. It did without any problems.

Also, does anyone notice anything odd about configuration #2 that theoretically I would not have expected? Any thoughts on this?

[col.1981]

To illustrate markm's point...

Here is an example of why you shouldn't put a suppressed HK416 upper on a rare M16A2 lower (100% Colt parts - H buffer). The bolt group was coming to its usual and sudden stop at the back of the receiver extension with enough force (that of Thor's hammer) to compress the pad on the buffer to the point that the gas key was able to come into contact with the lower receiver. You couldn't fit a heavy enough buffer into the receiver extension to prevent the damage. While exaggerated, this is a perfect example of why gas piston systems are not the cats meow...

On the plus side, he now has a staked receiver extension.

http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad16/phoenixarmament/Raw007.jpg


Wow! That'll make you sick.

[308sako]

To illustrate markm's point...

Here is an example of why you shouldn't put a suppressed HK416 upper on a rare M16A2 lower (100% Colt parts - H buffer). The bolt group was coming to its usual and sudden stop at the back of the receiver extension with enough force (that of Thor's hammer) to compress the pad on the buffer to the point that the gas key was able to come into contact with the lower receiver. You couldn't fit a heavy enough buffer into the receiver extension to prevent the damage. While exaggerated, this is a perfect example of why gas piston systems are not the cats meow...

On the plus side, he now has a staked receiver extension.





That is just too funny, except to the owner... Duh!

[308sako]

I recently did alittle experimenting with buffers just to see what all the fuss was about and ATF recently allowed me to pickup my new suppressor. I wanted to see what worked and what didn't, suppressed and unsuppressed. I was going to post this as a separate thread but....I'm certain nobody wants to see yet another buffer thread.

As you'll see...I went around the world only to come back to where I was standing to start with. Live and learn I suppose.

For what it's worth.

Firearm:
LMT Complete Lower w/BAD Lever & CTR Stock
BCM Upper, Daniel Defense 14.5” MidLength Barrel & AAC 51T Brakeout Comp
Suppressor – AAC M4-2000
Mags – 30rd PMags (#7)
Ammo – PPU .223 75gr BTHP Match – 5 rounds fired for each configuration

Note: I normally run a BCM FA BCG, Springco CS Blue Spring and an H Buffer for this firearm and have done so through over 2k of ammo with no issues at all prior to getting the suppressor.

Configuration #1 - BCM FA BCG / Springco Blue Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

H Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

H2 Buffer:
Unsuppressed – recoil was mild/maybe lighter, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions.

Suppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag each time. Three different times, out of five rounds, the bolt stripped a round but the bolt FAILED close completely.

Configuration #2 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Std Carbine Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested three times with the same results.

Configuration #3 – LMT Enhanced BCG (std bolt) / Springco Blue Spring

Carbine Buffer:
Unsuppressed - recoil was mild, bolt locked back on empty mag, no malfunctions

Suppressed – recoil was mild, bolt FAILED to lock back on an empty mag. This configuration was tested twice with the same results.

As stated before, I'm back to the BCM BCG, H buffer and Springco blue spring shooting suppressed and unsuppressed without any problems. Right where I started from.

I did take it a little further and bought some PMC Bronze just to see if it would run weaker ammo. It did without any problems.

Also, does anyone notice anything odd about configuration #2 that theoretically I would not have expected? Any thoughts on this?



I am not questioning your results, as facts are facts; but this appears to be counter intuitive to my reasoning regarding suppressors and the gas system. Dwell time is increased using the AAC unit, and I would have though that the unsuppressed mode would be the area of cycling difficulty. Perhaps the suppressor is actually holding the case in the chamber longer than the system would like therefore bleeding off cyclic energy... by this I mean difficult extraction slowing the carrier motion. Of course I am just guessing here.

[Scoby]

I am not questioning your results, as facts are facts; but this appears to be counter intuitive to my reasoning regarding suppressors and the gas system. Dwell time is increased using the AAC unit, and I would have though that the unsuppressed mode would be the area of cycling difficulty.

This was my line of thinking as well and what made me question what was happening


Perhaps the suppressor is actually holding the case in the chamber longer than the system would like therefore bleeding off cyclic energy... by this I mean difficult extraction slowing the carrier motion. Of course I am just guessing here.


Could be, and would it be due to the LMT Enhanced Carrier that is designed to bleed off excess gas? This is getting into an area that I lack some knowledge.


The other variable in this too is gas port size in the DD barrel. I don't know what the port size is and I'm not so interested in it to breakdown the gun to find out.

[Clint]

The LMT enhanced does two, somewhat counterbalancing things.

1) Gas bleed ports that reduce cycling force
2) lengthened cam track that delays extraction ( generally reducing extraction force required )

My guess is the (assumed) small/ proper gas port in the DD barrel, in combination with the gas bleed ports, reduced available cycle energy much more than the reduction in required extraction force provided by the longer cam track.

Also, the suppressor extends the time the case is obturated( expanded) against the case walls, generally increasing the required extraction force.

[Scoby]

Thanks for the reply Clint. In theory what you say makes sense.




Also, the suppressor extends the time the case is obturated( expanded) against the case walls, generally increasing the required extraction force.

..........and thereby delaying and lessening the amount of force that the BCG is driven into the RE? Shortening the BCG stroke and causing it to not lock back? I'm I getting that right?

Anyone know what the gas port size of a DD 14.5" midlength barrel should be?

Sorry for the slight tangent in your thread OP.

[rob_s]

Often times people just tinker for the sake of tinkering without knowing exactly what they are doing. It is the cool thing to do to add a heavier buffer. It's tactical, it's the latest craze, and in a month or so there will be something new to come along that allows shooters to reduce the reliability of their guns.

Exactly right.

:suicide2:

[Scoby]

I fail to see what's wrong with trying to optimize the performance and or the reliability of a gas operated weapon.

Esp if that weapon will be used suppressed and unsuppressed.

:rolleyes:

[rob_s]

I fail to see what's wrong with trying to optimize the performance and or the reliability of a gas operated weapon.

quantify "optimized".

[jonconsiglio]

An ideal and reliable cyclic rate and what feels best to the shoulder aren't necessarily the same thing.

What seems like harmless tinkering might make a rifle unreliable, and that might not show itself at first.

If it's a range gun or for competition, do whatever you please. If it's a work rifle, it's best to stick to what is suggested by the manufacturer for your particular ammo.

[Scoby]

Optimized would mean different things to different people. You could describe it as subjective.

For me it is having a AR that runs reliably with different types of ammo, suppressed or unsuppressed, locks back on an empty mag, minimum muzzle rise/recoil...take your pick.

Anything I would change on an AR, that I thought would be optimal, would be tested not with just 5rds per mag as I did in my "tinkering", but with at least 500 rds prior to me describing it as a dependable setup.

Can you honestly say that you have never "tinkered" with the setup on any of your ARs?

Let's just say all this "tinkering" I do is an endeavor to Become My Own Personnal SME.

[rob_s]

Optimized would mean different things to different people. You could describe it as subjective.

For me it is having a AR that runs reliably with different types of ammo, suppressed or unsuppressed, locks back on an empty mag, minimum muzzle rise/recoil...take your pick.

Anything I would change on an AR, that I thought would be optimal, would be tested not with just 5rds per mag as I did in my "tinkering", but with at least 500 rds prior to me describing it as a dependable setup.

Can you honestly say that you have never "tinkered" with the setup on any of your ARs?

Let's just say all this "tinkering" I do is an endeavor to Become My Own Personnal SME.

I'm looking for performance gains, or corrective action to achieve proper function. Splits, acccuracy, etc.

[Scoby]

An ideal and reliable cyclic rate and what feels best to the shoulder anent necessarily the same thing.

Very true. However, is it not possible that both ends of that operating spectrum could be optimized. Maybe, maybe not. How would you ever know if you don't give it a try?

What seems like harmless tinkering and make a less Eelam (What's a Ealam LE rifle) LE rifle that might not show itself at first.

If it's a range gun or for competition, do whatever you please. If it's a work rifle, it's best to stick to what is suggested by the manufacturer for your particular ammo.

I'm not LE or military. Just an average Joe that like to shoot, train and compete in matches when I can.




As long as you prove the reliability of any changes made to a weapon what's the harm?

[Scoby]

I'm looking for performance gains, or corrective action to achieve proper function. Splits, acccuracy, etc.

Yes, those are worthy things to strive for. Although I don't know that buffers have anything to do with accuaracy.

[rob_s]

Yes, those are worthy things to strive for. Although I don't know that buffers have anything to do with accuaracy.

You asked if I tinker, I was answering the broader question... No, I don't mindless tinker with my guns because I read about it on the internet. I go and shoot. I establish deficiencies in the firearm, eliminate my personal performance as a cause, and attempt to rectify the situation. Typically what happens is I have perfectly good gear but my skillset improves to the point that I an overrun the headlights of the equipment I have and need new equipment.

Which is the large part of the problem with threads like this. Take the OP, who probably has a PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL FIREARM, and now because he read about a bunch of guys on the internut changing out parts he thinks he might somehow be deficient.

It has gotten completely out of hand with people fiddle-****ing with ports, springs, buffers, triggers, etc. only to shoot 200 rounds a year. I guess it's nice to have a 10 second car sitting in the garage but if you ("you" in the general sense, not you in particular) never drive it who cares?

For the sake of the newbies, these things should be made more clear in the various fiddle-**** threads. The time and effort is MUCH better spent in ammo. Buy a quality gun so you don't have to worry about it and go shoot. For the sake of these guys, if you're fiddle-****ing just say so, if you're trying to correct a true, known, observed issue discovered while actually shooting, explain what that is. But the softest shooting gun isn't going to help anyone if they stand bolt upright with a chicken-wing sticking out to the side.

[jonconsiglio]

As long as you prove the reliability of any changes made to a weapon what's the harm?

Believe me, I do my share of changing shit around. I don't think there's anything wrong with it as long as you know what may or may not happen.

I went through that "softer shooting" phase. I realized even though it felt slightly softer, I was running the risk of short stroking (ammo dependent) and I wasn't really shooting any faster for what I was trying to achieve.

EDIT - I had some strange iPad induced spelling errors in my first reply. Sorry about that.

[Scoby]

I think we're nearly on the same page rob. Good points.

The things I did I wouldn't consider mindless. It was purpose driven and I kept records of what my results were. I like to know first hand how things work and I'm a see for yourself kind of guy. And yeah it's cost me some money. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this mindset.

The things I did with the buffers, springs, BCGs I caulk up to a learning experience. And I did learn some things and don't consider it to be over yet even though I came full circle and back to my original setup.

By the way......Anybody want to buy some buffers, springs and shit? :D

Now the guy who shoots a couple of times a year....I don't see that type of person really caring what is going on with his weapon or having a desire to make any improvements to it. If it goes bang, he's good. If this type of AR owner does do it, it's most likely for the tacticool factor.

[Scoby]

Believe me, I do my share of changing shit around. I don't think there's anything wrong with it as long as you know what may or may not happen.

jon, I don't think I'm out of line by saying anyone who is really serious about ARs, how they work, their performance and improving their skills with it do this to some degree.

Hey...I thought maybe you had developed a Jonconsiglio Ealam LE Rifle and we were the first to hear about it. ;)

[jonconsiglio]

jon, I don't think I'm out of line by saying anyone who is really serious about ARs, how they work, their performance and improving their skills with it do this to some degree.

Hey...I thought maybe you had developed a Jonconsiglio Ealam LE Rifle and we were the first to hear about it. ;)

I did. Then I realized I slipped and let the cat out of the bag, so I had to quickly edit it! ;)

You aren't familiar with the standard Eelam rifles??

[C4IGrant]

Leads me to asking why?

Heavier buffers will delay the opening of the action and lighter ones will do the opposite. It would appear that most shooters would like to have their rifles run smoothly and 100% without issues.

But I think I am missing something in all this, if a rifle or carbine or SBR functions 100% why would one change out his/her buffer to another weight profile?

Thanks


The term "function" means different things to different people. Some mis-informed people would tell you that an over gassed AR (DPMS/RRA/BM/Oly/Etc) with a Car buffer is a good idea because it will shoot all types of ammo (AKA crap, under pressured ammo).

The truth of the matter is that over gassed guns with light buffers and 5.56 ammo can actually cause the bolt to move so fast that the magazine cannot keep up with with feeding ammo and you get an empty chamber.

On top of the above, you will receive more felt recoil which means slower follow up shots.

Now if you have a gun with a correct GP size (Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc), the need to go above say an H buffer is minimal (unless you are running a suppressor).


So first, look at your gun and figure out if it is over gassed or not (if you do not know, ask someone on the forum). Once that is figured out, choose a buffer that will best improve the reliability of your gun.



C4

[MarkG]

The truth of the matter is that over gassed guns with light buffers and 5.56 ammo can actually cause the bolt to move so fast that the magazine cannot keep up with with feeding ammo and you get an empty chamber.

C4

No chance...

Over gassed? How far over gassed? This term is used way to frequently to explain the unexplained. As it is the truth of the matter, you should be able to easily induce the stoppage in a carbine simply by enlarging the gas port. At what size could I expect to see the stoppage manifest itself?

[Scoby]

The truth of the matter is that over gassed guns with light buffers and 5.56 ammo can actually cause the bolt to move so fast that the magazine cannot keep up with with feeding ammo and you get an empty chamber.C4

I can understand the carrier moving to the rear faster in an overgassed gun but, isn't it the spring and the mass of the buffer that drive it forward.

Or, is it how far the carrier is driven to the rear, thereby how much the spring is compressed that would actually determine how fast the carrier moves forward? Does the actual amount of initial gas really play a part in how fast the carrier moves forward in this instance? As in overrunning a mag.

[Scoby]

I did. Then I realized I slipped and let the cat out of the bag, so I had to quickly edit it! ;)

You aren't familiar with the standard Eelam rifles??

No, but I expect an invitation to the debut. :D

[308sako]

You asked if I tinker, I was answering the broader question... No, I don't mindless tinker with my guns because I read about it on the internet. I go and shoot. I establish deficiencies in the firearm, eliminate my personal performance as a cause, and attempt to rectify the situation. Typically what happens is I have perfectly good gear but my skillset improves to the point that I an overrun the headlights of the equipment I have and need new equipment.

Which is the large part of the problem with threads like this. Take the OP, who probably has a PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL FIREARM, and now because he read about a bunch of guys on the internut changing out parts he thinks he might somehow be deficient.

It has gotten completely out of hand with people fiddle-****ing with ports, springs, buffers, triggers, etc. only to shoot 200 rounds a year. I guess it's nice to have a 10 second car sitting in the garage but if you ("you" in the general sense, not you in particular) never drive it who cares?

For the sake of the newbies, these things should be made more clear in the various fiddle-**** threads. The time and effort is MUCH better spent in ammo. Buy a quality gun so you don't have to worry about it and go shoot. For the sake of these guys, if you're fiddle-****ing just say so, if you're trying to correct a true, known, observed issue discovered while actually shooting, explain what that is. But the softest shooting gun isn't going to help anyone if they stand bolt upright with a chicken-wing sticking out to the side.


Actually, in this assumption you are incorrect. I posed the question to stimulate educated or experienced responses... as well as to see where the discussion would lead.

I do not feel that my rifles require any of the do dads and cup holders so in fashion.

However, please continue because this has been an excellent thread with good knowledgeable responses.

[308sako]

The term "function" means different things to different people. Some mis-informed people would tell you that an over gassed AR (DPMS/RRA/BM/Oly/Etc) with a Car buffer is a good idea because it will shoot all types of ammo (AKA crap, under pressured ammo).

The truth of the matter is that over gassed guns with light buffers and 5.56 ammo can actually cause the bolt to move so fast that the magazine cannot keep up with with feeding ammo and you get an empty chamber.

On top of the above, you will receive more felt recoil which means slower follow up shots.

Now if you have a gun with a correct GP size (Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc), the need to go above say an H buffer is minimal (unless you are running a suppressor).


So first, look at your gun and figure out if it is over gassed or not (if you do not know, ask someone on the forum). Once that is figured out, choose a buffer that will best improve the reliability of your gun.



C4


I fully agree understand and accept this.

[308sako]

I can understand the carrier moving to the rear faster in an overgassed gun but, isn't it the spring and the mass of the buffer that drive it forward.

Or, is it how far the carrier is driven to the rear, thereby how much the spring is compressed that would actually determine how fast the carrier moves forward? Does the actual amount of initial gas really play a part in how fast the carrier moves forward in this instance? As in overrunning a mag.


After a lengthly conversation with Bill Alexander at a prior SHOT show one thing which was explicitly clear was the need for the buffer to bottom out during the cycle and allow ammuntiion the time necessary to come up in the magazine. When the carriers motion is stopped for that brief moment before the spring begins to move the carrier forward... good things happen for reliability.

[C4IGrant]

No chance...

Over gassed? How far over gassed? This term is used way to frequently to explain the unexplained. As it is the truth of the matter, you should be able to easily induce the stoppage in a carbine simply by enlarging the gas port. At what size could I expect to see the stoppage manifest itself?

WAAAY over gassed + car buffer + buffer springs that are under the minimum required length (which seems to be more and more normal these days with cheap AR's).
The mags also tend to be on the older side so the springs don't have enough ass in them.


C4

[C4IGrant]

I can understand the carrier moving to the rear faster in an overgassed gun but, isn't it the spring and the mass of the buffer that drive it forward.

Or, is it how far the carrier is driven to the rear, thereby how much the spring is compressed that would actually determine how fast the carrier moves forward? Does the actual amount of initial gas really play a part in how fast the carrier moves forward in this instance? As in overrunning a mag.

The BCG is moving very fast.

For the record, I have seen some carbine gas ports in the .084 range (on a 16" gun).


C4

[Scoby]

Grant

Does the buffer actually bottom out in the cycle?
If so, should this be the case regardless of the buffer weight and spring?

Don't I remember a recent thread in which the end of the buffer was mushroomed due to it hitting the rear of the receiver extension with such force to cause the gas key on the BCG to "stake" the RE to the lower?

[C4IGrant]

Grant

Does the buffer actually bottom out in the cycle?
If so, should this be the case regardless of the buffer weight and spring?

Don't I remember a recent thread in which the end of the buffer was mushroomed due to it hitting the rear of the receiver extension with such force to cause the gas key on the BCG to "stake" the RE to the lower?

Bottoming out depends on lots of things. Caliber, type of spring (new, old, etc). So I guess you could say that it is ok in some circumstances (with certain calibers), but not with othes.

Yes, that was a pic MK18P showed of a 416 on a Colt lower.



C4

[Eurodriver]

I can understand the carrier moving to the rear faster in an overgassed gun but, isn't it the spring and the mass of the buffer that drive it forward.

Or, is it how far the carrier is driven to the rear, thereby how much the spring is compressed that would actually determine how fast the carrier moves forward? Does the actual amount of initial gas really play a part in how fast the carrier moves forward in this instance? As in overrunning a mag.

I have no idea, but I know if you run a light buffer on a suppressed gun you can get the issues grant is talking about (personal experience)

[vicious_cb]

Just some food for thought. If there existed only 1 buffer weight wouldn't the logical choice be to have a multi-setting gas regulator, something like a switchblock perhaps. Wouldn't that achieve the same result as messing with the buffer weight? I know adjustable gas blocks exist but are considered too unreliable for a work gun.

[Terlingueno]

Perhaps it might help if someone could explain the difference in the recoil action between say a Colt 14.5 barrel with a .063 gas port when using an H buffer and standard spring vs an H2 and a Sprinco Blue. Compare that with an over gassed system using the same components. If I missed a simple explanation using search I apologize.

[C4IGrant]

Perhaps it might help if someone could explain the difference in the recoil action between say a Colt 14.5 barrel with a .063 gas port when using an H buffer and standard spring vs an H2 and a Sprinco Blue. Compare that with an over gassed system using the same components. If I missed a simple explanation using search I apologize.

Just depends on how much it is over gassed. I have seen GP's range of .068 all the way to the .080 range. Big difference and that makes it kind of hard to compare.

I take each gun on a case by case basis. I also look at whether or not the weapon is going to be suppressed and the type of ammo that is commonly used.


C4

[Scoby]

Perhaps it might help if someone could explain the difference in the recoil action between say a Colt 14.5 barrel with a .063 gas port when using an H buffer and standard spring vs an H2 and a Sprinco Blue. Compare that with an over gassed system using the same components. If I missed a simple explanation using search I apologize.

Due to your post, I feel I should interject something here about the reference to recoil in my experiments with these buffers / springs, etc…

Reliable function was my primary objective.
My reference to recoil probably should have been referred to as muzzle rise as that was the secondary occurrence I was trying to observe, although it’s likely that the two go hand in hand in most cases.

Recoil is what you feel when you fire a gun.
Muzzle rise is what you see of course.

As stated, what functions for me is the H buffer, Springco blue spring, and BCM BGC. Suppressed and unsuppressed.
The recoil / muzzle rise is what it is for this configuration because it’s a secondary consideration for me.