View Full Version : Can't Decide - Centurion C4 7" Carbine or C4 Carbine Cutout?
JoeSixPack
01-24-12, 16:57
From Centurions site:
C4 7" Weight: 8.5oz with screws
C4 Carbine Cutout Weight: 10.5oz with screws
It looks like the C4 Carbine cutout weighs 2 more oz than the C4 7"
I'm trying to keep the weight to an absolute minimum and this has me leaning toward the C4 7".
It's also why I have decided on the Centurion. The built in QD socket saves an oz over having to mount a QD socket on the rail.
I'm adding the rail to free float the barrel not to mount a bunch of stuff on it. I might want to put a flashlight on it one day. But I doubt it.
So what possible argument is there for the C4 Carbine cutout and the 2 extra oz. over the C4 7" Carbine?
The cutout gives a little longer reach, which may, or may not, be important to you. I use it and I highly recommend it.
Eurodriver
01-24-12, 17:30
The 2oz weight penalty would not even phase me considering the extra rail space you get with the cutout version.
7" rails suck.
I wish I had the cut-out rather than the 7". I bought mine before the cut-out rail was an option. I will sell you my lightly used 7" if you want and I'll get a cut-out to replace it.
PRGGodfather
01-24-12, 18:43
We are quite fond of the C4 cut-outs. Very little weight penalty while allowing one to keep the FSB. Monty makes good kit.
If I was running a carbine length gas system with a traditional front sight, I wouldn't get a rail at all and mount my light to the front sight.
Go for the cutout version. I love my DD 9.5FSP. The extra rail space is great for more grip and light placement.
I'm going to get the cutout for my mid-length rifle, I think. Slightly more weight, but the rail space being further out is fantastic (especially when you're a hair under 6'4").
I have a Centurion 10.5" upper from before the cutout was available. I would prefer the cutout.
If limited to the two options you have listed, I'd go for the carbine cut. The extra rail space is more than worth the extra couple of ounces. However, as long as the barrel length I was working with was 12.5" or longer I'd go with the 12" FSP Sight Pocket rail Centurion offers. 15.3 oz. installed weight is trumped by the additional useful real estate. You could mount a Surefire X300 at the 12 o'clock position in front of the front sight and have a nice lightweight light set up.
JoeSixPack
01-24-12, 21:11
OK. Just ordered the last 2 C4 Carbine cutouts that Rainier Arms had in stock.
If I don't like'em I can always put'em on EBAY.
Finding the right rails for my Colt LE6920's has been a nightmare.
I have everything else on my AR's the way I want but I can't seem to find a rail I'm happy with.
Tried MOE hand guards. Light weight but no QD socket. Adding a QD socket required adding a section of rail, then a QD socket. QD socket ended up sticking an 1" off the side of the guard. Bugged me. Wanted something lower profile. Got some surplus KAC RAS rails. Super strong but heavy and no QD sockets. Added Gear Sector low profile QD sockets. Thought I has happy. Actually I was happy. Then my friends tell me I need FF rails.
Tried DD Omega's. Light weight with QD sockets. I could have lived with the DD Omega's but the little hex bolts that tighten the rail to the barrel nut bugged me. The little hex bolts just didn't seem big enough. I kept worrying they were going to loosen up for some reason.
Maybe the Centurian C4 cutout rails will be the trick. But that 2 extra oz. is already bugging me;)
Cutout or FSP.
Functional takes precedence over weight, on what are already very light handguards.
I've got a very lithe 14.7" LW rifle, and it's getting a C4FSP because I can run a smaller lighter pistol light at 12:00 adding functionality and only adding a grand total of 5oz over an MOE carbine handguard.
Consider saving $155 but gain 4.1 oz. Comes w/ QD sockets too.
MI Gen2 Two Piece Free Float Handguard, Extended Length Carbine
The MCTAR-20XG2 EXTENDED MODEL WILL NOT WORK WITH GAS PISTON SYSTEMS. Weight 14.6 oz, Length 12.5 inches, Width 2.3 inches, Height 2.43 inches $195
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa53/Kodiakco/Firearms/ffgen2.gif
...Tried MOE hand guards. Light weight but no QD socket. Adding a QD socket required adding a section of rail, then a QD socket. QD socket ended up sticking an 1" off the side of the guard. Bugged me. Wanted something lower profile...
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com will install or you can buy and install a flush mount Mount-n-Slot QD on your MOE handguard, if you still have it.
http://www.impactweaponscomponents.com/static/images/productimage-picture-qd-micro-mount-132_jpg_280x280_q85.jpg
I cannot tell you which one to buy (as I don't have experience with either), but I just wanted to say that the owner of Centurion (Grinch on the forum) is a quality guy that I like a lot.
C4
Consider saving $155 but gain 4.1 oz. Comes w/ QD sockets too.
MI Gen2 Two Piece Free Float Handguard, Extended Length Carbine
The MCTAR-20XG2 EXTENDED MODEL WILL NOT WORK WITH GAS PISTON SYSTEMS. Weight 14.6 oz, Length 12.5 inches, Width 2.3 inches, Height 2.43 inches $195
\
Consider the value of an anti-rotating railed handguard.
buckshot1220
01-24-12, 22:00
I have the 7" right now and will soon upgrade to the cutout. The extra space aids in adding a light without inhibiting your grip and not making you feel as cramped.
I have a 7" rail on my carbine and wished I'd gotten the extended with FSP cutout. Same reasons as most, just a little more reach for your arm.
I cannot tell you which one to buy (as I don't have experience with either), but I just wanted to say that the owner of Centurion (Grinch on the forum) is a quality guy that I like a lot.
C4
You should fix that. :D
Great guy, great product.
No question in my mind, I would go with the extra rail if for no other reason than to reduce barrel shadowing with a light.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Centurion%20Arms/IMG_5043-1200-Stick.jpg
Looks like I should be able to pick up a 7" cheap pretty soon... :p
I just swapped out my Omega 7 for a Centurion carbine cutout last week. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but I really like the added hand space the cutout gives.
Definitely get the cutout. Imperceptible weight gain is far outweighed by the benefits of having more rail to work with grip and accessories.
Ghetto comparison of a 7" vs cutout
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/3f02d445.jpg
Are these rails easily user installed or is a gunsmith required? Does one need to take off the front sight off?
Are these rails easily user installed or is a gunsmith required? Does one need to take off the front sight off?
Our design allows the installation of the rail on an upper assembly without removing the front sight post or permanently attached muzzle devices.
I believe you do have to cut off the delta ring. Which you can do.
I believe you do have to cut off the delta ring. Which you can do.
That and cut off/rip off/remove the handguard cap. A pair of vise grips and a Dremel worked for me.
JoeSixPack
01-28-12, 21:18
Are these rails easily user installed or is a gunsmith required? Does one need to take off the front sight off?
OK, just installed a pair of Centurion C4 Carbine Cutout rails I ordered last week on a pair of Colt LE6920's
This was a number of "gunsmithing" firsts for me...
1st time removing a factory flash suppressor. No problems here. I used a vise takedown block
http://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Upper-Receiver-Takedown-Block/dp/B006QMYVLK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1327803829&sr=8-5
clamped in a Rockwell Jaw Horse and the flash suppressor broke loose without a huge amout of effort.
Next came removing the tapered pins in the front site post. This was a little more tricky. Brownell's is sold out of the pin blocks for front site posts. I cut out some pieces of 1x4 pine and put the barrel in the gap between two pieces to get a solid support to hammer the pins.
I took the advice I read on a forum to use a FLAT steel punch about 2x the diameter of the pins and a 16oz brass hammer. Had to pop them a few times but they came out without much problem. Once you hammer the pin flush with the surface of the front site post (the pins stick out maybr 1/64 of an inch then switch to a small nail punch and the pins will practically will fall out. They are not like roll pins where you have to hammer them all the way through. The hard part with the tapered pins is getting them to move the first little bit.
On my LE6920 I had to hit the pins on side opposite the ejection port.
If you aim the rifle that would be the left side. If you are looking into the muzzle it would be the right side. I used a micrometer to verify which side the smaller end of the pins was on. You want to hammer on the smaller end.
Once the pins were out, the front sight post slid off the barrel without any hammering as the the metal piece that the handguard snaps into.
The gas tube slides out as you slide the front site post off, no need to remove the gas tube from the front sight post.
As this point I was felling pretty good and figured what mess with cutting off the delta ring when I can just break barrel nut loose, take the delta ring off, and put the nut back on.
I had bought a really heavy duty barrel nut wrench from Spike's. It's one of those that you put on the end of a 1/2" drive ratchet.
With the upper clamped to the vise takedown block which was clamped in my Jaw Horse I attempted to break the barrel but loose. No go. I put as much pressure on it as I felt I could without fear of ripping the pin posts off that were holding the upper to the vise block.
I think you would have to have one of the plastic clam shell things that allows you to clamp the upper into a vise to get the barrel nut off.
So I broke out the dremel and a small cutting wheel and cut through the left and right side of the delta ring and then put a screwdriver in the cut and twisted and the delta ring popped right off.
The spring was easy. Just grab it with some needle nose vise grips and tear it off. The spring is somewhat brittle and breaks easy.
The snap ring was a little more trouble. It's too thick to just break and if you try and wring it off over the barrel nut it will scratch you barrel nut all up if you care. Easy way it to use the dremmel and cut it about 1/2 way through then it will break easy and fall off.
Putting the Centurion rails on after that only took a few minutes.
So how do I like the C4 Carbine cutouts?
Very well made and the rail locks up to the barrel nut very tightly. The hex nuts on the C4 and larger and MUCH easier to tighten than the tiny little hex screws on the Omega rails I had on.
That said, I'm still not sure I made the right choice with the C4 Carbine cutout instead of the C4 7".
My goal has been to build a M4 that was lite as possible while still being accurate. The 2 extra oz. in the C4 Carbine cutout compared to the C4 7" is already bugging me.
I've been so anal on weight that I actually went with the aimpoint comp ML3 instead of the newer ML4 just to save a few oz.
The ML3 is 7.8oz compared to 9.3oz for the ML4. There's also the difference in the AA battery (.5 oz) in the ML4 and the button battery in the ML3 (.01 oz).
I'm probably going to go ahead and order the C4 7" and EBAY the C4 Carbine cutouts. I don't plan on attaching anything to the rail. The only reason for the rail is for the Free Float.
OK, just installed a pair of Centurion C4 Carbine Cutout rails I ordered last week on a pair of Colt LE6920's
This was a number of "gunsmithing" firsts for me... ...
I don't THINK you have to remove the front sight to install the C4 cut out rail.
I don't THINK you have to remove the front sight to install the C4 cut out rail.
You don't. If you're even a little skilled with a tin snips you can get the handguard cap off without a problem. Obviously mind the gas tube.
Ouroborous
01-29-12, 02:26
I just installed a c4 12" FSP on my 6920. Instead of taking the FH off, I removed the taper pins from the FSB, removed the gas tube, dremeled the delta ring and springs off, and used snips for the handguard cap- -a pretty easy install for a first timer such as myself.
Here's a pic:
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/leesh888/6920.png
I just installed a c4 12" FSP on my 6920. Instead of taking the FH off, I removed the taper pins from the FSB, removed the gas tube, dremeled the delta ring and springs off, and used snips for the handguard cap- -a pretty easy install for a first timer such as myself.
Here's a pic:
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i125/leesh888/6920.png
I'd like the personally thank you for putting me out the cost of one C4FSP rail - that is pretty!
The snap ring was a little more trouble. It's too thick to just break and if you try and wring it off over the barrel nut it will scratch you barrel nut all up if you care.
Without question, that is the first time I've ever heard anyone mention scratching a barrel nut as a concern. :D
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Centurion%20Arms/868W4679-Edit-1200-Stick.jpg
Stick that pic is amazing, is that a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel
Quiet-Matt
01-29-12, 18:46
Stick that pic is amazing, is that a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel
Stick's is 10.5"...
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Centurion%20Arms/868W4679-Edit-1200-Stick.jpg
Mine is 11.5" for comparison...
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VTLb1qfgd1o/TpCdKqcKaXI/AAAAAAAAJEI/7xdgxMdCuBs/s1024/DSC02567.JPG?gl=US
Stick's is 10.5"...
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Centurion%20Arms/868W4679-Edit-1200-Stick.jpg
Mine is 11.5" for comparison...
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VTLb1qfgd1o/TpCdKqcKaXI/AAAAAAAAJEI/7xdgxMdCuBs/s1024/DSC02567.JPG?gl=US
thanks for the reference pics
I cannot tell you which one to buy (as I don't have experience with either), but I just wanted to say that the owner of Centurion (Grinch on the forum) is a quality guy that I like a lot.
C4
so why don't you carry his rails and other products?..
SpookyPistolero
01-29-12, 20:44
so why don't you carry his rails and other products?..
Do they sell their stuff at any [online] retail stores?
Do they sell their stuff at any [online] retail stores?
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop%2Fmanufacturer&manufacturer=93
http://www.weaponoutfitters.com/search?q=centurion
Sounds like Bravo Company just picked them up as well.
doriwoogie
01-29-12, 22:26
Stickman, I can't tell for certain due to the angle of your pictures, but on your 10.5" can you tell if the rails on the side would interfere with an AAC 51t Brake and the mounting of a M4-2k?
Sounds like Bravo Company just picked them up as well.
That could make for some very cool Kino setups. Especially if the midlength cutout rail has room for a can on a 12.5" barrel.
Sounds like Bravo Company just picked them up as well.
this would be very good. I've always been a little perplexed why Monty doesn't have wider distribution for such great products. not to cast any stones on any of his existing ones but it seems like he's the best kept secret in rails, etc...
this would be very good. I've always been a little perplexed why Monty doesn't have wider distribution for such great products. not to cast any stones on any of his existing ones but it seems like he's the best kept secret in rails, etc...
As an aside, it's impressive as hell how he keeps up with everything (I've heard) he has going on. I emailed him about some hardware over the weekend and heard back from him on Sunday. I'll definitely continue to buy from Centurion.
Anybody know where I can find the mid-length variant in stock?
Rainierarms and Bravocompany seem to be out-of-stock.
-Dan.
Stickman, I can't tell for certain due to the angle of your pictures, but on your 10.5" can you tell if the rails on the side would interfere with an AAC 51t Brake and the mounting of a M4-2k?
Looks like it should work fine.
Chris17404
01-31-12, 10:41
Sounds like Bravo Company just picked them up as well.
I must say... a 16" BFH LW midlength upper with Centurion Arms C4 cutout rail would be very tempting!
Chris
doriwoogie
01-31-12, 20:45
Looks like it should work fine.
Thanks Stickman. I'm really liking that setup, may have to give it a shot, if the IRS gives me a good refund!
Seems to be a shortage of them. I have contacted 5 retailers. All out for now..
Sorry to ressurect a semi-dead thread, but why didn't the OP consider a DDM4 cutout rail? Weight seemed to be a major concern and it's lighter than the Centurion at about the same price.
I have a C4 12" on a middy that I absolutely adore but really, is the Centurion rail that much better than the DD rail that no one mentioned it? I've got the DDM4 on my DDM4V1LW and it's rock solid and super lightweight, plus they seem more readily available than the Centurion rails.
Is it because Centurion is just considered more "high speed" now??
What are the advantages? I was considering another cutout rail for an orphaned 16" carbine and was looking at both this morning - I don't want two DDM4s, as then the rifles would look identical.
Is the Centurion a superior design? Should I just get that damned Troy Delta and join the tube-o-lution?
I was just gonna shave the FSB down, wait for a 16.7 NSR to come in stock, and throw a HERA comp on it, but the idea seems sillier every time I think about it.
I don't think the Centurion is superior, just different. It is the best rail for me since I don't have the tools necessary to install a DD rail. I do have a grinding wheel and tin snips to install the Centurion though.
Sorry to ressurect a semi-dead thread, but why didn't the OP consider a DDM4 cutout rail? Weight seemed to be a major concern and it's lighter than the Centurion at about the same price.
I have a C4 12" on a middy that I absolutely adore but really, is the Centurion rail that much better than the DD rail that no one mentioned it? I've got the DDM4 on my DDM4V1LW and it's rock solid and super lightweight, plus they seem more readily available than the Centurion rails.
Is it because Centurion is just considered more "high speed" now??
What are the advantages? I was considering another cutout rail for an orphaned 16" carbine and was looking at both this morning - I don't want two DDM4s, as then the rifles would look identical.
Is the Centurion a superior design? Should I just get that damned Troy Delta and join the tube-o-lution?
I was just gonna shave the FSB down, wait for a 16.7 NSR to come in stock, and throw a HERA comp on it, but the idea seems sillier every time I think about it.
When you're talking good quality handguards (like most equipment) it comes down to personal preference and what you think you'll need. I have a DD 12" Lite Rail on my 16" and it's great. I have a Centurion Carbine Cut Out rail on one of my SBRs and have found that I prefer it over the Lite Rail. Not enough to replace the Lite Rail, but for any future build, I'll be getting the Centurion. I will be replacing a couple of other rails/handguards with the Centurion though. Both are quality pieces, i just prefer the feel of the Centurion. Most people don't "need" all that rail space. Focus on your needs, and something like a "tube" with replaceable rail sections may be best suited for you. I personally like rails all the way down for a carbine.
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