View Full Version : Tried to convince a friend to buy a good Gun
Well after converting to colt a while back and letting a friend shoot some he decided he wanted a rifle. He is going to the police academy....
I showed him grants deals on the 6720 and 6920.
I found him a ffl that would transfer cheap.
He tells me yesterday he's just going to have one of the local cops build him one.....
I asked why he didn't want the colt the reply I got was the colt was too blocky, upon asking what kind of lower would be used I was told Aero...I was sort of stunned because they look the same....
He was also conceded about not being able to mount a rds on the flat top.
I don't understand why someone would pay 950 for tossed together parts when 1000I will get you the gold standard.... I can understand cheap builds in the 6 to 700the dollar range for plinkers but I had to walk away from this for now
Anyone have any advise I could give my buddy? I tried to make him read here....
Thank
jon
You can lead a horse to water but, you can't make him drink..frankly let your buddy get his slapped together AR..Let him fail with it. It's the only way he's going to learn..
Point him towards a DD or BCM, you can sell him on the flat top and rail as well as get him into a high quality firearm for maybe $100 bucks more.
Making him understand that decision is a whole other story though.
QuietShootr
01-25-12, 08:37
Oh, boy! Another "I'm friends with a ****ing retard and I want you guys to help me install a pair of functioning neurons in his head" thread. We haven't had one of these in a week or two.
Failure2Stop
01-25-12, 09:05
If he won't listen it doesn't matter what kind of facts you throw at him.
For his safety, I would at least urge him to find out whose armorer's course his cop buddy went through.
Who knows, the guy might know what he is talking about. I doubt it, but the possibility exists.
The cop buddy has been thru "bubba the gun plumbers school of home gun plumbing"
last time i was at his range and he was trying to diagnose another friendsmalfunctioning gun, he kept telling him it was under gassed i would say it was a problem in his bcm, like a loose key or something, and neither ofthem thought i was right till i dropped my bcg(colt) in the gun and it ran great. i stuck with it was a gas key problem, and the "cop buddy" swore it was under gassed.
i guess yall are right about the cant make him drink thing. i will bring this up once more then let it die....
the cop friend told me personally he doesn't like colt because the magwell area is too "blocky"
but an aero lower looks better. he disagreed when i said they were the same
Beat Trash
01-25-12, 09:28
I agree with Failure2Stop. Just because he's a LEO and went to an armors school doesn't even instill confidence personally.
I've been a LEO for 19 years. I've never been to armors school, but can download video's and instructions on how to assemble an AR. I've never assembled an Ar, but how hard can it be? I'm sure the world is full of penny pinching individuals with this thought in mind. I still wouldn't trust any AR that I assembled to be used for anything other than recreational shooting.
My agency sent 4 of our armors to an armors school for the AR/M4 system. The head armor still has yet to use a torque wrench, as he feels you really don't have to bother with one. (Yes, he's an idiot)
With the pricing of Colt 6920's lately, you'd be hard pressed to build for your first gun. Especially if the skill and experience of the person assembling the gun is in doubt.
Failure2Stop
01-25-12, 09:32
The cop buddy has been thru "bubba the gun plumbers school of home gun plumbing"
Ah, prestigeous.
**** it man, let it go.
Just let your buddy know (sincerely) that you will help him fix his blaster when it pukes.
Just continuously out shoot him with your WORKING gun and he may change his ways on his own.
Attending an armorers course does not an armorer make. If you attend the Colt Course or Ken Elmores' course you will not do barrels. The Colt course will provide enough info to do basic troubleshooting, etc... but it really does not qualify you to start assembling guns for use.
You need to have some solid years of understanding and use of the system. Personally I would tell your buddy like it is. He's an idiot and is risking his life on a firearm assembled by BubbaJohn. Then ask him to add you to his life insurance policy.
ICANHITHIMMAN
01-25-12, 10:40
I have these discussions all the time on another forum. He is not going to listen they never do.
"the colt was too blocky"
What does this even mean?
Some people are not worth the time. I have one friend who I educated, and he is on his own now and doing very well. He now is learning on his own. We are going to a Vickers 3day together this summer.
I have another friend I tried to teach. The constant blank look on his face discouraged me and I gave up. It was not worth my time. He bought a pre-ban colt A2 Hbar, I agreed with this decision and encouraged it. It was a good price and we live in a ban state.
My next piece of advice was take it home shoot it, learn about it and then I will help pick the parts online to turn it into a good carbine. He said he wanted everything then and proceeded to but a 500$ parts kit at the show. It consisted of a M4 stock and commercial receiver extension. the upper was 16" mid weight, 1/9 twist non-chrome lined. Gas block was railed, set screwed, the rail was lower then the flat top. Carbine hand guards. He did not buy any BUIS, he did buy an EOtech.
The gas block moved forward shooting it, and it became single shot. His EOtech quickly ran out of batteries, and he had no back ups.
My friend is a moron and there is no hope for him. I reassembled his AR to all colt configuration and he has shelved it.
Although I tend to agree that your friend wont listen, I would ask him what kind of warranty the cop was going to give him, or better yet, if there was some catastrophic event with the gun and your friend lost an eye or finger or whatever, how much liability insurance the cop had. I'm not sure what kind of liability someone would have if they were "building" guns for someone with out proper training, but I wouldn't want to be the test case on something like that either.
The power of self delusion and the male ego are unrivaled by any facts you could ever produce. Any change of mind will have to come from within himself, you can only help him to reach that point on his own. You can't force in straight in.
does he have visions of this being a "patrol rifle" someday? i know some departments allow officers to qual/carry individual carbines....so is this home build going to get him killed?
PrivateCitizen
01-25-12, 11:36
Just lost one to DPMS.
Pointed him to G&R and Colt/BCM/DD
Explained that even if whole rifles weren't avail he could buy a QUALITY Upper/Lower/BCG for the same price.
He went to Cabela's, bought a $950 DPMS fraking Panther … but "it came with 4 mags"
Mind I told him he could have 5 of my PMAGS or 5 USGI/with MP followers.
This guy is a former Airborne Engineer, served in Gulf 1. WTF?
The even more suck part is he ended up paying MORE because of tax.
I guess we'll see our frist day out. Sad.
I built my first AR in 1977. Having said that your buddy should get the colt. You did what you could by pointing him to Grant. He will learn soon enough.
I just convinced a buddy of mine who was looking at bushmasters to order a 6720 from grant.
But yeah, I find in many cases these arguments are futile.
p22shooter30
01-25-12, 11:42
sounds like it is just going to be a plinker range gun. Then chances are extremely low (never) his life will never be in danger because someone built it, so let it go. i hate friends that dont mind thier own business sometimes.
Agree with all above. Only thought to add is you now must encourage your friend to buy a lot of ammo and shoot the shit out of it. It'll either be "proofed out" or break, and then he'll know for sure.
Just lost my brother to S&W even after showing relative prices on Colt and BCM. Now all I can do is peer pressure him into shooting A LOT. Time will learn'im!
I tried directing a coworker to this site when he was looking to buy his AR. Instead he became convinced a piston AR was THE way to go and went and bought a Ruger. But the receiver stays clean. :suicide:
didnt ruger do a pretty good job on that rifle?
He does want it to be a patrol rifle...the pd where he's working will let him use it
didnt ruger do a pretty good job on that rifle?
It's an Ok rifle from what I understand, but he could have gotten a BCM or DD for the same money.
didnt ruger do a pretty good job on that rifle?
According to a good friend of mine who I'd recommended otherwise, no. After less than 500 rounds, he had to send it back to Ruger for an out of spec RE.
Oh, boy! Another "I'm friends with a ****ing retard and I want you guys to help me install a pair of functioning neurons in his head" thread. We haven't had one of these in a week or two.
Maybe I am a bad person, but even with my closest friends and family, if they want my advice, I'll give it....once. If they chose to do otherwise, I couldn't give two shits about trying to convince them and won't waste my time, **** 'em.
As low as Grant's prices on Colts are and as fast as he ships there is really no reason in the world not to get a 6920 or whatever flavor Colt/DD/BCM, etc. one prefers.
I look at gun classifieds all the time and I can't help but laugh when I see someone selling their x-brand AR for $900-$1200. You just know they overpaid for it or monkeyed it together, had problems with it, and are trying to dump it on someone so they can pick up something worth a damn.
didnt ruger do a pretty good job on that rifle?
IF one enjoys having a recoil inpulse that feels like a lawn chair is being unfolded against one's shoulder...
...it's a fan-TAS-tic rifle.
DeltaSierra
01-25-12, 14:42
IF one enjoys having a recoil inpulse that feels like a lawn chair is being unfolded against one's shoulder...
...it's a fan-TAS-tic rifle.
Yep....
Not only that, but the Ruger that I ran for a while did not have a properly cut chamber. I had stuck casings all the time in the rifle....
p22shooter30
01-25-12, 14:45
As low as Grant's prices on Colts are and as fast as he ships there is really no reason in the world not to get a 6920 or whatever flavor Colt/DD/BCM, etc. one prefers.
There is a huge reason, he doesnt want it. he can buy whatever he wants.
Sure he can buy whatever he wants but what are his goals with the rifle? And does he have the information necessary to reach an informed decision on his purchase?
From what it sounds like he wants a good general purpose carbine to be used as a duty gun, and he has no idea what to look for or buy, hasn't been educated on AR's and he's going with a Bubba Special for the same price or more than a Colt/BCM/LMT/DD. So yes, as he can buy whatever he wants, it sounds like he might spend a good deal of money on a substandard frankenjunker.
St.Michael
01-25-12, 15:12
Just don't be friends with him. It's easier that way. I do it all the time.
Speculation: Because his department might not have the money to issue a rifle to each individual officer, but they'll allow you to bring your own if you want, and it's better than only having a pistol available.
St.Michael
01-25-12, 15:55
Speculation: Because his department might not have the money to issue a rifle to each individual officer, but they'll allow you to bring your own if you want, and it's better than only having a pistol available.
Shit like this makes me wonder where our country is headed. sigh. All the detectives in my city just got bumped down and are on the road as well as doing their other job because our city is so poor they fired 5 cops who got hired a couple months ago. It's BS. Anyway.
If your friend doesn't wanna hear about quality let him learn for himself. When he runs it hard and it breaks down. Well you can tell him you tried to warn him.
why would you bring your own personal rifle on duty with you anyways? tax writeoff? feel better about pointing your own gun at people instead of an issued one? anyways you informed him, he is not listening, move on or buy him a colt with your own money
If you saw the rifles the PD issues in the city where I work (I don't work for the PD) then you would understand exactly why guys carry their own rifles.
There is a huge reason, he doesnt want it. he can buy whatever he wants.
That's certainly true, he can buy whatever he wants. I guess I should have qualified my statement by saying there is really no reason in the world for an educated buyer not to get a 6920 or whatever flavor Colt/DD/BCM, etc. one prefers...
wetidlerjr
01-25-12, 17:40
I've ran into the same problems when trying to help friends buy a stereo or computer. You give the best advice and they go to someone and buy craptastic junk.
Some time ago I sold a friend an outstanding original Colt Series 70 Gold Cup National Match which he promptly traded for a "frankenjunker" (thanks to Moltke for that word) AR. He showed it to me and I said basically nothing as, in the end, it was HIS money he threw away, not mine. :cool:
ford7379trucks
01-25-12, 23:50
iv never heard of a pd that allowed franken guns. There usually strict on using a Colt
It all depends on the dept. Some departments don't even know what Colt is or why they are better.
Some only care about what the lower receiver is marked which leaves alot open.
iv never heard of a pd that allowed franken guns. There usually strict on using a Colt
Generalpie
01-26-12, 02:28
My department allowed personally owned guns for ever until just now. Apparently they will no longer be allowed and all will be getting issued rifles. That is a mix of 1970's colts, Bushmaster patrolmen carbines and 6920's.
I have always carried my own because it keeps it out of hands that are better left off it. At least I know it functions and hasn't been screwed with since last time I handled it.
I am pretty confident I could assemble an AR from the ground up properly but for what an assembled unit costs now for quality, I really don't know why I would. Hell, there are even great railed forends that don't require any real smithing.
ETA: A lot of departments only care about the purchase price.
Alaskapopo
01-26-12, 03:12
iv never heard of a pd that allowed franken guns. There usually strict on using a Colt
Rules vary from agency to agency. It also depends on who wrote the policy. I wrote the policy at my department using a larger agencies policy as a guide. I used more general requirements because gun makes change more often than I want to change the policy. I have a clause in there that any weapon needs to pass an armorers inspection, be reliable during training and qualificaitons, and be approved by the department. (Me approving or disapproving it and the Chief oking or rejecting my decision)
Larger agencies often have more rigid policies because they have to.
Pat
leibermuster
01-26-12, 13:39
If he won't listen it doesn't matter what kind of facts you throw at him.
For his safety, I would at least urge him to find out whose armorer's course his cop buddy went through.
Who knows, the guy might know what he is talking about. I doubt it, but the possibility exists.
Attending an armorers course does not an armorer make. If you attend the Colt Course or Ken Elmores' course you will not do barrels. The Colt course will provide enough info to do basic troubleshooting, etc... but it really does not qualify you to start assembling guns for use.
You need to have some solid years of understanding and use of the system. Personally I would tell your buddy like it is. He's an idiot and is risking his life on a firearm assembled by BubbaJohn. Then ask him to add you to his life insurance policy.
+1
Problem is those types of people usually don't buy insurance :lol:
Exactly...they won't listen, my best advice is to spend no more than 5 to 10 minutes explaining the differences, if they show the intention or ask you further questions in there decision in regards to buying LMT,KAC,NOVESKE,BCM or a Colt then spend a little more time, if not don't waste your time.
In your 5 minute spiel, i think it should be on the lines of using points like
1. Many of the parts are not up to par and are not to the MIL-SPEC standard, price will increase when replacing or upgrading the parts which you will have to do at some point.Name a few bad manufactures like Bushmaster/DPMS/Olympic etc etc
2. Point him or her to a link in regards to MIL-SPEC and what that roughly means.
3 Name off a few companies that are made worth while in owning.
4. Warn him of dealers that will use the usually sale lines Example "it is the same the US military uses" and the false advertising that usually associates with it.
5.Mention you prefer quality and a few reason why you do, depending on his reception to what your points and reasoning you made, that should determine if the conversation should go further.
The best and fastest thing to do is point him to a website or dealer like (Grant if living in the states) and be done with it. If you are not making money on the sale why bother?
At the end of the day people will justify in there own minds what they want and that will be what they buy. What ever you do don't tell him to buy anything specific because people always like to do the opposite anyways. Also if the guy is inherently cheap, keep the conversation a lot shorter.
Really just keep reminding yourself that time spending with him is time you can spend doing something else. There is lots of info on the internet these days, if he is too lazy to do any research, well it ain't your problem.
A month ago I was set on picking up a Del-Ton AR because it was "same price as the S&W Sport but has a dust cover and forward assist"...
Luckily for me, my brother in law bought one and had problems with it picking up the last two rounds from the magazine (granted it was a cheap plastic magazine) as well as a few failure to fires and failure with the bolt closing completely...
I then jumped online and started reading everything I could on Del-Ton as well as AR15's in general, quickly seeing that his problems were not unique. So I have pinched some pennies, flipped some couch cushions, threatened lunch money from my little cousin and will be sending that hard earned money to Grant at G&R Tactical and having him send me a BCM rifle.
Del-Ton $750
BCM $1000 (give or take depending on furniture)
Peace of mind I get knowing that I'm getting a rock solid AR15 is well worth it, even if my fat ass will never see a war zone or engage in a firefight with anything more than cardboard targets.
I just realized my reply has absolutely nothing to really do with the OP. Sorry about that.
Because of the Chart I get emails all the time from people asking me what they should buy. I get various replies to my suggestions, but invariably the ones that don't listen are the ones with a "cop buddy" or a "Army/Marine buddy" who told them something different than what I did.
No sweat off my balls. I used to try to explain things to them (funny, since they found me through the Chart to begin with) but now I don't bother. One and done.
I've had a lot more luck lately convincing people to buy good guns. It's pry just planets aligning or something, but there you go.
I hate buddies with AR suggestions. And invariably one of them is a soldier/cop who somehow magically knows something about AR manufacturing by osmosis.
SpaceWrangler
01-27-12, 06:31
Because of the Chart I get emails all the time from people asking me what they should buy. I get various replies to my suggestions, but invariably the ones that don't listen are the ones with a "cop buddy" or a "Army/Marine buddy" who told them something different than what I did.
No sweat off my balls. I used to try to explain things to them (funny, since they found me through the Chart to begin with) but now I don't bother. One and done.
Regardless, thanks for all the effort. There are scads of us who know not to refer to The Chart as the be-all / end-all reference of the AR Kingdom, but to take The Chart at face value and use it as a starting place to do our own research into the various manufacturers.
Bravo Zulu.
The time I tried to shepard a friend the right direction I failed miserably. I did all I could to show him the light of mil-spec IP beauties from BCM, DD, or Colt. He seemed really interested in my advice. Few weeks later he called me all excited. He had bought a first gen Ruger piston gun. :o
It was worse than when my first girlfriend left me for a girl.
polymorpheous
01-27-12, 09:54
It was worse than when my first girlfriend left me for a girl. :sarcastic:
I actually won one!
My work buddy bought a SP6920.
He's very happy with it.
Then he went on an ammo and mag binge.
No aftermarket gadgets, no snake oil.
:D
Beat Trash
01-27-12, 11:06
I work for an agency of about 1,100 officers, with about 200 officers trained and authorized to carry Department owned Patrol Rifles. For those who are not a LEO, a Patrol Rifle is an AR15 that someone somewhere decided had to be called something else...
My agency may be authorizing privately owned carbines in the near future. Between this and many officers just wanting to become first time AR owners for the same reasons many in the the civilian market are buying up AR's, I'm often approached by people who are asking advice on what to buy.
I try to help whenever asked. I talk. I ask what they intend using the gun for. I try to explain that there are differences in quality. I usually end up recommending the Colt, BCM, DD, or maybe the S&W. (Sound familiar?)
Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. The hardest problem is my range staff refuses to believe that there is any difference in quality between the various brands. After all, parts are all parts. They're all made by the same company and then the major companies just buy them and put their logo on the guns! After talking with me, these individuals are told contradictory statements from individuals they assume are qualified, because they went to an armors course once.
I think it's easier to fall for this line of crap if it will result in a cheaper purchase. Especially when the individual is on the fence about how much money to spend, if any at all. I end up being accused of being a snob because I like the Colt 6920. They are steered toward S&W, RRA, BM or, even DPMS.
I managed to meet Grant from G&R several months ago when he was at our facility with some S&W reps training with our SWAT team. (He's an interesting guy to talk with, by the way.) He was getting just a taste of my frustration while visiting.
I think this same type of problem is why the OP and several of us will have the same problem when trying to recommend in good faith to a friend which type of AR would best suit their needs.
You can have easily overload them with technical information that goes past their ability to comprehend or care. You can keep it more basic and they will comprehend. You then show them how slim the actual price difference currently is between quality and crap.
But then they go the local "Jim Bob Bubba's" gun store. (No offense to anyone here who's name may be Jim Bob and actually owns a gun store) and they are trying to sell them that DPMS in the corner. The sales pitch will commence. Or they go on line to various other sites and are told that guys like me are brand name snobs.
The best one can do is to try. If they listen, great. If they don't, then try to resist the temptation to say. "I told you so" when they come to you with problems with their newly acquired gun.
Usually I innundate my friends in technical information. In the end, they just hand me cash and ask to buy them quality uppers and parts. I just buy them BCM, unless their budget allows for Colt, DD, Noveske, KAC, etc.
I work for an agency of about 1,100 officers, with about 200 officers trained and authorized to carry Department owned Patrol Rifles. For those who are not a LEO, a Patrol Rifle is an AR15 that someone somewhere decided had to be called something else...
My agency may be authorizing privately owned carbines in the near future. Between this and many officers just wanting to become first time AR owners for the same reasons many in the the civilian market are buying up AR's, I'm often approached by people who are asking advice on what to buy.
I try to help whenever asked. I talk. I ask what they intend using the gun for. I try to explain that there are differences in quality. I usually end up recommending the Colt, BCM, DD, or maybe the S&W. (Sound familiar?)
Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. The hardest problem is my range staff refuses to believe that there is any difference in quality between the various brands. After all, parts are all parts. They're all made by the same company and then the major companies just buy them and put their logo on the guns! After talking with me, these individuals are told contradictory statements from individuals they assume are qualified, because they went to an armors course once.
I think it's easier to fall for this line of crap if it will result in a cheaper purchase. Especially when the individual is on the fence about how much money to spend, if any at all. I end up being accused of being a snob because I like the Colt 6920. They are steered toward S&W, RRA, BM or, even DPMS.
I managed to meet Grant from G&R several months ago when he was at our facility with some S&W reps training with our SWAT team. (He's an interesting guy to talk with, by the way.) He was getting just a taste of my frustration while visiting.
I think this same type of problem is why the OP and several of us will have the same problem when trying to recommend in good faith to a friend which type of AR would best suit their needs.
You can have easily overload them with technical information that goes past their ability to comprehend or care. You can keep it more basic and they will comprehend. You then show them how slim the actual price difference currently is between quality and crap.
But then they go the local "Jim Bob Bubba's" gun store. (No offense to anyone here who's name may be Jim Bob and actually owns a gun store) and they are trying to sell them that DPMS in the corner. The sales pitch will commence. Or they go on line to various other sites and are told that guys like me are brand name snobs.
The best one can do is to try. If they listen, great. If they don't, then try to resist the temptation to say. "I told you so" when they come to you with problems with their newly acquired gun.
:D
C4
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