View Full Version : BCM Lower LPK
Maybe a lame question but, what LPK does BCM use in complete lowers?
I am only assuming it's not in-house since 'BCM' LPK's are not offered for sale. Or maybe they mfg. some of the parts?
And, while I'm at it what kinda lube do they send uppers out in? I just got one and can't say I'm familiar with the 'smell'.
Its funny you say that about the smell of the oil. It caught my attention too. Maybe smells like vanilla to me. I almost didn't want to wipe it off.
I got one a while ago and didnt notice it. The one I got 2 weeks ago was vanilla.
Its funny you say that about the smell of the oil. It caught my attention too. Maybe smells like vanilla to me. I almost didn't want to wipe it off.
I got one a while ago and didnt notice it. The one I got 2 weeks ago was vanilla.
Star logo? I believe mine came in vanilla too.
That is hilarious, I just picked up another upper and BCG a few weeks ago and was wondering the same thing! I thought it was just the machining oil/cutting fluid, but I have no idea. Frog lube is minty, BCM has vanilla, whats next bubble gum?
Yeah I too would like to know about the LPK they use. I purchased a BCM lower from Grant, and while the machining and finish on the lower is excellent, the trigger was on the grungy side. That isn't a complaint, just an observation.
Star logo? I believe mine came in vanilla too.
Yea star logo, which is pretty cool in its own right
Maybe a lame question but, what LPK does BCM use in complete lowers?
I am only assuming it's not in-house since 'BCM' LPK's are not offered for sale. Or maybe they mfg. some of the parts?
And, while I'm at it what kinda lube do they send uppers out in? I just got one and can't say I'm familiar with the 'smell'.
G96 gun treatment:
http://www.g96.com/gun_treatment.html
Thanks for the link.
No one's gonna bite on the LPK? I realize manufacturers don't have to reveal parts sources, but it wouldn't hurt rep either IMO. And I haven't called BCM directly, just figured someone around here would have that knowledge and not mind sharing it.
I am interested because I'd like upper/lower by same mfg. And there's no way I could get my hands on one without buying it first (no try before by) so the emphasis is on research.
LowandLeft
01-27-12, 20:05
Yeah, I was noticed they only sell DPMS, RRA and Stag LPK. No offence to the above companies, but I would assume BCM would put in a higher quality LPK. I believe Grant uses a mix of parts but mostly LMT.
Yeah, I was noticed they only sell DPMS, RRA and Stag LPK. No offence to the above companies, but I would assume BCM would put in a higher quality LPK. I believe Grant uses a mix of parts but mostly LMT.
i think grant or someone posted that BCM doesn't sell any of their own kits outside of a lower. The stag, dpms and RRA kits are there because peopel asked for them.
i just got a BCM blem lower today, good looking piece of gear, everything functions very smoothly. trigger has a bit of pre-travel, but no biggie. Feels like a very positive safe trigger, break is predictable. I noticed the bolt release button has a very fine grip texture on it, more so than most AR's i've handled. maybe that could be a clue as to who makes the LPK? :confused:
I wished that Paul at BCM would sell the lower parts kit on his website. I could use a coulpe to replace the cheap DPMS I put in spare lowers builds..
I personally won't use anything but Genuine COLT Parts.
Maybe a lame question but, what LPK does BCM use in complete lowers?
I am only assuming it's not in-house since 'BCM' LPK's are not offered for sale. Or maybe they mfg. some of the parts?
My understanding is that BCM sources their parts to meet their own rigorous specs then assembles the lower in-house. The end result is a top quality complete lower.
My understanding is that BCM sources their parts to meet their own rigorous specs then assembles the lower in-house. The end result is a top quality complete lower.
they seem nice...
are most AR parts MIM or investment cast or what? I notice parting lines on quite a few bits.
Paul from BCM posted this on a forum I visit a lot.
...
It is our company policy that we do not disclose direct information as to suppliers, process, or certain specifications. We work with a small number of government contract machine shops to produce products built to our specifications and/or prints. Much of the final machining, process, and QC is done here at BCM’s new 30K Sqr/foot facility. The final product yielded is a BCM/Bravo Company MFG, Inc. product.
...
Thank you for listening,
Paul
Bravo Company USA, Inc.
Bravo Company MFG, Inc.
Basically, I think you will be hard pressed to find out who makes their lower parts. From what I've heard, the BCM trigger isn't anything special so why worry? If you really want a LPK that is above normal standards like the RRA or Stag kits then get one from LWRC.
If you really want a LPK that is above normal standards like the RRA or Stag kits then get one from LWRC.
Wait whattt? :D
The best kits I can find right now: Daniel Defense Lower Receiver Parts Kit! https://danieldefense.com/components-parts/lower-half/lower-receiver-parts-kit-semi-auto.html
I just ordered two... Just google it, their out therer. I see good reviews on them. Anyone have any experience or opinions on them?
DeltaSierra
01-29-12, 19:40
Wait whattt? :D
:lol:
:suicide2:
I guess that LWRC just got promoted past Colt, LMT or Daniel Defense...
Wait whattt? :D
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
:lol:
:suicide2:
I guess that LWRC just got promoted past Colt, LMT or Daniel Defense...
First of all I don't see anything about Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM's LPK's that make it special. I'm not saying that a Colt Ar is the same as a Stag AR cause we all know its not. But as far as LPK's go... please tell me what the difference is. Maybe I'm missing something here. The only negative stuff I heard about LPK's are from DPMS kits where the roll pins are hard to install or missing parts.
Second, where can I buy a Colt LPK or a LMT LPK. Again, am I missing something here?
As far as why I suggested a LWRC LPK is because according to their site their LPK's have hammer and trigger castings that are x-ray'ed before machining to milspec and the FCG is nickel coated. They also assure you that everything is milspec or better. So the LWRC is different than a standard LPK. It doesn't go as far as including a two-stage trigger so therefore if the OP wants a standardish LPK but something that is better than other standard LPK's it seems LWRC is the obvious choice.
It seems you are harping on me because I didn't suggest a Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM LPK. But let me ask you a question. What makes a DD LPK better than a RRA LPK? Anything besides opinions?
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
First of all I don't see anything about Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM's LPK's that make it special. I'm not saying that a Colt Ar is the same as a Stag AR cause we all know its not. But as far as LPK's go... please tell me what the difference is. Maybe I'm missing something here. The only negative stuff I heard about LPK's are from DPMS kits where the roll pins are hard to install or missing parts.
Second, where can I buy a Colt LPK or a LMT LPK. Again, am I missing something here?
As far as why I suggested a LWRC LPK is because according to their site their LPK's have hammer and trigger castings that are x-ray'ed before machining to milspec and the FCG is nickel coated. They also assure you that everything is milspec or better. So the LWRC is different than a standard LPK. It doesn't go as far as including a two-stage trigger so therefore if the OP wants a standardish LPK but something that is better than other standard LPK's it seems LWRC is the obvious choice.
It seems you are harping on me because I didn't suggest a Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM LPK. But let me ask you a question. What makes a DD LPK better than a RRA LPK? Anything besides opinions?
===================================
You self admit that Colt is better but don't you think their LPK's contribute to their "betterness"?
You're probably right, RRA, BM, DPMS guns are crap but their LPK's are the cat's meow...
A manufacturer's statement about how good their products are, is a real good source of facts. Just curious, do you subscribe to a lot of gun mags?
Read your post real slow and see how gill-farted and contradictory it is...
But maybe it's just me...
.
===================================
You self admit that Colt is better but don't you think their LPK's contribute to their "betterness"?
You're probably right, RRA, BM, DPMS guns are crap but their LPK's are the cat's meow...
A manufacturer's statement about how good their products are, is a real good source of facts. Just curious, do you subscribe to a lot of gun mags?
Read your post real slow and see how gill-farted and contradictory it is...
But maybe it's just me...
.
You are just saying the Colt, LMT, BCM, and DD must use better parts in their lower because they use milspec parts in the other areas. You are furthering saying the because RRA, Stag, etc dont follow milspec completely their lower parts must also be of lower quality. Do you not see all of the asumptions you are making to come to such a conclusion?
As for re-reading my post, maybe you need to calm down and read it again yourself because I wrote that DPMS lpk's are shotty and there were several questions. I will ask them again and perhaps you can answer them with facts, not assumptions or speculations. I am also trying to learn something new.
1) Can you buy a Colt, LMT, or BCM lpk?
2) What is the difference between a DD lpk and a RRA lpk?
Two simple questions.
You are just saying the Colt, LMT, BCM, and DD must use better parts in their lower because they use milspec parts in the other areas. You are furthering saying the because RRA, Stag, etc dont follow milspec completely their lower parts must also be of lower quality. Do you not see all of the asumptions you are making to come to such a conclusion?
As for re-reading my post, maybe you need to calm down and read it again yourself because I wrote that DPMS lpk's are shotty and there were several questions. I will ask them again and perhaps you can answer them with facts, not assumptions or speculations. I am also trying to learn something new.
1) Can you buy a Colt, LMT, or BCM lpk?
Yes, Colt, LMT, BCM LPK's are readily available inside Colt, LMT, & BCM rifles. Other than that, Colt LPK's can be found at G&R Tactical and Specialized Armament. LMT parts are used in G&R Tactical's LPK's.
2) What is the difference between a DD lpk and a RRA lpk?
DD guns work and have few problems. RRA triggers are notorious for having problems, out of spec chambers, blah...blah...blah. Do some research on RRA and DD. A gun is the sum of its parts, if the parts are less than ideal ...even though they may be called "mil-spec" or the DEA uses them...or whatever....the gun is less than ideal
Two simple questions.
=======================================
BTW, I don't have a dog in this fight either.
I just hate to see some guy reading this thread, get the impression that LPK's made by lower tier gun companies are some how "good".
But maybe it's just me...
.
Can you link me to the Colt lower parts kit at G&R?
You are talking about RRA two stage triggers, not their standard triggers. Then you deflect about the chamber specs and a rifle being the sum of its parts. You really cant answer the second question can you?
This thread is about lower parts kits, not rifles as a whole. Out of spec chambers have nothing to do with lower parts kits. Perhaps if the thread was about RRA AR's vs DD AR's you would have a point.
Here is some food for thought. Do you think that Colt, LMT, DD, and BCM make all of the parts in their lowers? Its outsourced.
Also, you must realize that milspec is the minimum standard placed by the military. Think about Noveske barrels. They aren't milspec. PMAGs arent milspec. Things can be better than milspec. It seems to me the two of you made the mistake of writing LWRCi off because they make piston AR's and not on the chart. Ask about LWRCi. Perhaps you will realize your mistake.
FYI my AR was assembled on stripped mega lower/upper receivers using mostly BCM parts. I like the idea that I know exactly what I'm buying and BCM does this better than anyone in the market. I also plan to buy an LE6921 after I get some other guns. I am no colt or bcm hater. I just realize that there isnt any difference in some of the parts no matter the brand. Next you will be telling me a Colt dust cover is better than brand y's dust cover, when infact its the exact same part from the exact same subcontractor.
Stop putting all your faith in brand names and do some research instead of making assumptions.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=CLPK
Stop putting all your faith in brand names and do some research instead of making assumptions.
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=749706&postcount=25
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=CLPK
Thank you. I never knew such a thing existed. But TWICE the cost? Grant also mentions in the post that is linked by Bob Reed that this particular lpk is made of MOSTLY Colt parts. Not truly a Colt lpk. (The above isn't a response to your post randolph. Thank you for posting the link. The response is to the others who claim Colt lpk's are the end all.)
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=749706&postcount=25
Again can you explain what the differences are? Grant posts over that CGN and I truly respect everything he has to say but I don't think anyone has ever explain why one is better than the other besides some magical assumption based on the fact that its "milspec" while others are "milspec" but not really? What is the exact difference? Also, do you really believe that milspec can't be improved upon?
EDIT: You guys are so caught up in the milspec thing that it seems like you think there is nothing better. If I was building a Colt AR and wanted to use JUST Colt parts then I can see where a Colt lpk would be useful just to keep everything Colt. I still have yet to see anything that would suggest a Colt roll pin, spring, or FCG is better or more milspec than a BCM or RRA lpk. Do you REALLY think Colt produces roll pins and springs? I can maybe see Colt making their own FCG but even that is unlikely.
Maybe a lame question but, what LPK does BCM use in complete lowers?
I am only assuming it's not in-house since 'BCM' LPK's are not offered for sale. Or maybe they mfg. some of the parts?
And, while I'm at it what kinda lube do they send uppers out in? I just got one and can't say I'm familiar with the 'smell'.
Basically, I think you will be hard pressed to find out who makes their lower parts. From what I've heard, the BCM trigger isn't anything special so why worry? If you really want a LPK that is above normal standards like the RRA or Stag kits then get one from LWRC.
The OP wanted a BCM lower parts kit that is not available. I suggest a LWRC LPK that is "better" than a RRA or Stag LPK. I still don't see what was wrong with my post.
As far as why I suggested a LWRC LPK is because according to their site their LPK's have hammer and trigger castings that are x-ray'ed before machining to milspec and the FCG is nickel coated. They also assure you that everything is milspec or better. So the LWRC is different than a standard LPK. It doesn't go as far as including a two-stage trigger so therefore if the OP wants a standardish LPK but something that is better than other standard LPK's it seems LWRC is the obvious choice.
If you believe one thing those Ass Wipes at LWRCi claim, then you need to step back away from the crack pipe.
(interesting that another LOW POST count guy pops up to astro turf LWRCi's junk)
How long have you worked for LWRCi? Are the benefits good?
If you believe one thing those Ass Wipes at LWRCi claim, then you need to step back away from the crack pipe.
(interesting that another LOW POST count guy pops up to astro turf LWRCi's junk)
How long have you worked for LWRCi? Are the benefits good?
Low post count? I must be new to the AR platform right, since M4c is the only forum where AR's are spoken about? haha.
Seriously though, what is wrong with LWRCi? I joined to learn more about the AR but all I'm getting so far is emotional statements saying that brand X is better than brand y and brand z sucks without any factual evidence. I'm hoping you can change this.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-30-12, 09:56
You said that you've never seen anythng that says a Colt LPK is more in spec than an RRA? Have you ever seen the TDP? No, well heres a secret...Colt has. That statement is outrageous.
I could care less about an LWRCi LPK, I wont buy one but you are welcome too. But a company who really doesnt make anything to milspec (ie Piston) wont be trusted to make my other parts either. They also have a shitty QC track record. For those reasons, I wont buy one.
The funny thing about Mr. Richie is that he is a pussy. He ran to CGN and maybe other forums to cry about being treated like this:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=529489
Seriously? Grow a pair.
-themailman
Maybe he is trying to send a profound message--"don't be emotional with me, or I will get emotion myself." Perhaps he is re-enacting what he perceives the behavior of others to be--emotional chaos.
Maybe...:p
Maybe a lame question but, what LPK does BCM use in complete lowers?
I am only assuming it's not in-house since 'BCM' LPK's are not offered for sale. Or maybe they mfg. some of the parts?
And, while I'm at it what kinda lube do they send uppers out in? I just got one and can't say I'm familiar with the 'smell'.
Ones they source.
Lube? Smell?
C4
The funny thing about Mr. Richie is that he is a pussy. He ran to CGN and maybe other forums to cry about being treated like this:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=529489
Seriously? Grow a pair.
-themailman
I vented on CGN. Sue me. A pussy? Whatever. So I'm a pussy. I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions.
Maybe he is trying to send a profound message--"don't be emotional with me, or I will get emotion myself." Perhaps he is re-enacting what he perceives the behavior of others to be--emotional chaos.
Maybe...:p
Say what you want about me. I don't really care. But please answer my questions and I'll STFU. The thing is that I don't see an answer coming anytime soon. I somehow insulted the Colt, LMT, BCM, DD brands by suggesting LWRCi and now you guys just want to personally attack me. I just want an answer.
i think grant or someone posted that BCM doesn't sell any of their own kits outside of a lower. The stag, dpms and RRA kits are there because peopel asked for them.
Correct.
C4
If you really want a LPK that is above normal standards like the RRA or Stag kits then get one from LWRC.
Whose standards??? Neither of those LPK's would be what I call "above."
C4
I vented on CGN. Sue me. A pussy? Whatever. So I'm a pussy. I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions.
Say what you want about me. I don't really care. But please answer my questions and I'll STFU. The thing is that I don't see an answer coming anytime soon. I somehow insulted the Colt, LMT, BCM, DD brands by suggesting LWRCi and now you guys just want to personally attack me. I just want an answer.
LWRC screwed a lot of people over, basically using customers as guinea-pigs for their junk system as it morphed into a somewhat livable system. That has a lot of people mad at them.
Whose standards??? Neither of those LPK's would be what I call "above."
C4
Can you explain why? My understanding is that the parts for a lpk come from outside manufacturers. Does Colt make all of their own parts in their lowers? I know that DPMS uses different roll pins that can make it hard to install but how is a Colt roll pin better than a RRA roll pin?
LWRC screwed a lot of people over, basically using customers as guinea-pigs for their junk system as it morphed into a somewhat livable system. That has a lot of people mad at them.
Thank you. Did not know that. A real answer, that is refreshing.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
First of all I don't see anything about Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM's LPK's that make it special. I'm not saying that a Colt Ar is the same as a Stag AR cause we all know its not. But as far as LPK's go... please tell me what the difference is. Maybe I'm missing something here. The only negative stuff I heard about LPK's are from DPMS kits where the roll pins are hard to install or missing parts.
The TDP is the difference. Colt follows it (and has it). Every part and piece follows a set standard for size, weight and color.
Second, where can I buy a Colt LPK or a LMT LPK. Again, am I missing something here?
We sell Colt LPK's here: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=COLT
We use a lot of LMT LPK's in our (G&R) LPK's: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=GRT-LPK
As far as why I suggested a LWRC LPK is because according to their site their LPK's have hammer and trigger castings that are x-ray'ed before machining to milspec and the FCG is nickel coated. They also assure you that everything is milspec or better. So the LWRC is different than a standard LPK. It doesn't go as far as including a two-stage trigger so therefore if the OP wants a standardish LPK but something that is better than other standard LPK's it seems LWRC is the obvious choice.
How could they "assure" their LPK's are "mil-spec" when they don't even have the TDP???
C4
Can you explain why? My understanding is that the parts for a lpk come from outside manufacturers. Does Colt make all of their own parts in their lowers? I know that DPMS uses different roll pins that can make it hard to install but how is a Colt roll pin better than a RRA roll pin?
Yes and no (depends on which companies we are talking about here).
Colt makes everything in house (and also out sources). DD makes many things in house as well (and out sources).
C4
How could they "assure" their LPK's are "mil-spec" when they don't even have the TDP???
C4
That would apply to EVERY company then right? Like BCM, DD, and LMT? I see the reasoning behind your point.
Yes and no (depends on which companies we are talking about here).
Colt makes everything in house (and also out sources). DD makes many things in house as well (and out sources).
C4
Wait what? in house and out source? So they don't make everything. If RRA, for example, gets their lower parts from the same source as Colt and DD what makes it different besides the fact that the parts haven't passed through Colt or DD?
That would apply to EVERY company then right? Like BCM, DD, and LMT? I see the reasoning behind your point.
Does Colt make every singe part in their lowers?
"Mil-Spec" from many companies means "Mil-Spec COMPATIBLE".
ie. It SHOULD fit in or on anything that is built to the TDP.
That would apply to EVERY company then right? Like BCM, DD, and LMT? I see the reasoning behind your point.
Does Colt make every singe part in their lowers?
Yes and no. Some companies have black market copies of the TDP. Some companies have found the companies where Colt sources parts from and bought the same parts (this is rare though IMHO).
Most of the better companies attempt to follow the TDP (or what they know of it) and do a great job of putting out a quality product.
At the end of the day though, there is only ONE TDP holder that sells to the public.
Colt makes every single thing in their AR/M4.
C4
Yes and no. Some companies have black market copies of the TDP. Some companies have found the companies where Colt sources parts from and bought the same parts (this is rare though IMHO).
Most of the better companies attempt to follow the TDP (or what they know of it) and do a great job of putting out a quality product.
At the end of the day though, there is only ONE TDP holder that sells to the public.
Colt makes every single thing in their AR/M4.
C4
Sabre Defense is (was) also a holder of the TDP, and made a LOT of stuff (about 85%, including "small parts") in-house. Their stuff *should* match the TDP, if you can find any remaining, no?
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-30-12, 10:19
Im not quite sure I understand the importance of having every product made in house. If DD or BCM contracts a company to make Product X in specification X, and then inspects to see if it is in spec, then that is that. Now, RRA can contract the same company to make Product X as well, but in specification Y, usually because it is cheaper. They can inspect it to see if it is in "their" specs, but it may not be up to spec X. Assuming that all outsourced parts come from the same place, and that they are all to the same spec shows a serious lack of understanding.
Ha! This got me permanently banned from CGN!
Im not quite sure I understand the importance of having every product made in house. If Colt contracts a company to make Product X in specification X, and then inspects to see if it is in spec, then that is that. Now, RRA can contract the same company to make Product X as well, but in specification Y, usually because it is cheaper. They can inspect it to see if it is in "their" specs, but it may not be up to spec X. Assuming that all outsourced parts come from the same place, and that they are all to the same spec shows a serious lack of understanding.
+1
It doesn't matter if it's built at Colt, or elsewhere, if it matches the TDP's specs, it matches. If not, then no. Parts do not have emotions. They do not care who's machines or hands shape and temper them.
Yes and no. Some companies have black market copies of the TDP. Some companies have found the companies where Colt sources parts from and bought the same parts (this is rare though IMHO).
Most of the better companies attempt to follow the TDP (or what they know of it) and do a great job of putting out a quality product.
At the end of the day though, there is only ONE TDP holder that sells to the public.
Colt makes every single thing in their AR/M4.
C4
Thanks for the informative post. So Colt is truly milspec. Everyone else including BCM and DD are trying to stay as close to milspec as possible. I won't comment on other parts of the AR where better than milspec is available since that is another can of worms.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-30-12, 10:24
+1
It doesn't matter if it's built at Colt, or elsewhere, if it matches the TDP's specs, it matches. If not, then no. Parts do not have emotions. They do not care who's machines or hands shape and temper them.
BTW, I edited my last and took Colt out of the equation. AFAIK they make all their innards in house.
Im not quite sure I understand the importance of having every product made in house. If DD or BCM contracts a company to make Product X in specification X, and then inspects to see if it is in spec, then that is that. Now, RRA can contract the same company to make Product X as well, but in specification Y, usually because it is cheaper. They can inspect it to see if it is in "their" specs, but it may not be up to spec X. Assuming that all outsourced parts come from the same place, and that they are all to the same spec shows a serious lack of understanding.
Ha! This got me permanently banned from CGN!
yeah but your assuming that RRA only uses spec y in the lpk while BCM and DD use spec x. Till I see anything that proves this I don't see this as anything but an assumption.
For all we know the lpk from a BCM is the same as the lpk from a RRA.
As for you getting banned on CGN... sorry about that haha. You actually posted some interesting points over there. This thread has turned into one hell of a introduction post for myself. I didn't realize the investment people here had in Colt. :p
"Mil-Spec" from many companies means "Mil-Spec COMPATIBLE".
ie. It SHOULD fit in or on anything that is built to the TDP.
Correct and this IS the definition that most companies follow.
For me, the term "mil-spec" means that the parts or guns follow the TDP.
To me, companies that use the term "Mil-Spec", but don't actually follow the TDP is misleading the consumer.
C4
Sabre Defense is (was) also a holder of the TDP, and made a LOT of stuff (about 85%, including "small parts") in-house. Their stuff *should* match the TDP, if you can find any remaining, no?
They made a lot of guns and parts long before ever being awarded any contract for the M16 family of weapons so I don't know that I would seek out their parts.
YMMV.
C4
Im not quite sure I understand the importance of having every product made in house. If DD or BCM contracts a company to make Product X in specification X, and then inspects to see if it is in spec, then that is that. Now, RRA can contract the same company to make Product X as well, but in specification Y, usually because it is cheaper. They can inspect it to see if it is in "their" specs, but it may not be up to spec X. Assuming that all outsourced parts come from the same place, and that they are all to the same spec shows a serious lack of understanding.
Ha! This got me permanently banned from CGN!
I agree and do not think every part needs to be made in house.
With that said, your QC needs to be DOUBLE of what you would normally do for a part that was made in house.
C4
+1
It doesn't matter if it's built at Colt, or elsewhere, if it matches the TDP's specs, it matches. If not, then no. Parts do not have emotions. They do not care who's machines or hands shape and temper them.
That's my point! You guys just assume that a RRA lpk is inferior because of their other parts. I think when it comes to companies like RRA, Stag, etc you need to evaluate each part on its own. The argument that RRA's barrels aren't milspec so their lpk is also not milspec doesn't hold water.
As you said if the parts are exactly the same then its the same. I don't see how you can say RRA has an inferior lpk with any facts to back that up. Its a lpk for crying out loud.
Having said that I'm dropping this. I feel like I'm getting cornered into a situation where I'll have to say Colt is crap which I don't agree with at all. Colt makes true milspec parts. Other companies make parts that are better, equal, or worse.
Thanks for the informative post. So Colt is truly milspec. Everyone else including BCM and DD are trying to stay as close to milspec as possible. I won't comment on other parts of the AR where better than milspec is available since that is another can of worms.
Correct. Now the thing to remember is that some companies are attempting to go above what the TDP calls for. So they would not conform, but are still making a quality product. One example would be using melonite VS chrome.
Some companies have even come out with their own (in-house) spec which again is fine as long as it is a quality product.
Personally I would MUCH rather see a company do one of the above VS attempting to make me think they are following a document that they do not "officially" have in their possession.
C4
yeah but your assuming that RRA only uses spec y in the lpk while BCM and DD use spec x. Till I see anything that proves this I don't see this as anything but an assumption.
For all we know the lpk from a BCM is the same as the lpk from a RRA.
As for you getting banned on CGN... sorry about that haha. You actually posted some interesting points over there. This thread has turned into one hell of a introduction post for myself. I didn't realize the investment people here had in Colt. :p
This forum and thread isn't about Colt. For me personally, I do not own a complete DD, Colt or BCM rifle. I am however a Distributor for all three companies and do my best to tell the truth about each of them.
C4
Correct. Now the thing to remember is that some companies are attempting to go above what the TDP calls for. So they would not conform, but are still making a quality product. One example would be using melonite VS chrome.
Some companies have even come out with their own (in-house) spec which again is fine as long as it is a quality product.
Personally I would MUCH rather see a company do one of the above VS attempting to make me think they are following a document that they do not "officially" have in their possession.
C4
Agreed! I'd take a Noveske SS barrel over a Colt barrel any day IF I was going for accuracy. (I know Noveske is not THE best accurate barrel maker in case some of you want to jump on me for that statement).
That's my point! You guys just assume that a RRA lpk is inferior because of their other parts. I think when it comes to companies like RRA, Stag, etc you need to evaluate each part on its own. The argument that RRA's barrels aren't milspec so their lpk is also not milspec doesn't hold water.
As you said if the parts are exactly the same then its the same. I don't see how you can say RRA has an inferior lpk with any facts to back that up. Its a lpk for crying out loud.
Having said that I'm dropping this. I feel like I'm getting cornered into a situation where I'll have to say Colt is crap which I don't agree with at all. Colt makes true milspec parts. Other companies make parts that are better, equal, or worse.
Most of us (especially me) have seen enough out of spec LPK's from companies like RRA to ever recommend them.
Does this mean that EVERY RRA LPK is going to fail or be junk? Of course not. It just means that they use the cheapest parts they can find because they follow NO STANDARD other than the one that saves them the most money.
C4
This forum and thread isn't about Colt. For me personally, I do not own a complete DD, Colt or BCM rifle. I am however a Distributor for all three companies and do my best to tell the truth about each of them.
C4
Grant, this whole thing started because I suggested the OP get a LWRCi lpk over a RRA or Stag lpk. I didn't even suggest that the OP get a LWRCi lpk over a Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM lpk. All of a sudden everyone is on my case that I didn't suggest one of the 4 companies that they feel is the best.
I personally assembled my AR using mostly BCM parts with a sprinkling of other top manufacturers. I too think Colt, LMT, BCM and DD make quality AR parts and I like to stick with it. I'm really surprised by the reactions here. Its not like I suggested that a Del-Ton was on par with a BCM.
Grant, this whole thing started because I suggested the OP get a LWRCi lpk over a RRA or Stag lpk. I didn't even suggest that the OP get a LWRCi lpk over a Colt, LMT, DD, or BCM lpk. All of a sudden everyone is on my case that I didn't suggest one of the 4 companies that they feel is the best.
I think the reason why you got "jumped" is because most of the members are very informed and know what is a quality and what isn't.
This isn't CGN where ignorance/mis-information is the norm. ;)
C4
I think the reason why you got "jumped" is because most of the members are very informed and know what is a quality and what isn't.
This isn't CGN where ignorance/mis-information is the norm. ;)
C4
If they are well informed its not very apparent. I haven't gotten a straight answer till you came in here. Hell, a member tried to offer that because RRA chambers are out of spec that RRA lpk's are also out of spec. That is a logical fallacy in the fullest. Now he had said that there are many examples of RRA lpk's being out of spec and therefore its not likely that RRA and DD lpks share the same parts then I would have taken note and said thank you.
As for the RRA lpk's being out of spec. I will deffinately keep that in mind. Thank you.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
01-30-12, 10:47
I think the reason why you got "jumped" is because most of the members are very informed and know what is a quality and what isn't.
This isn't CGN where ignorance/mis-information is the norm. ;)
C4
I agree, and not just because I was banned. M4C is a special type of forum, with members who have proven experience in this field. Be they MFG'ers, retailers, instructors, high ranking military/contractors etc. When they say they have seen a negative pattern from a company, they say that from true experience. CGN and many other forums are made up of random joe's who tout their own 200rds a year as experience that can match Larry Vickers'. Take the time to understand this forum and what it is about, learn who the actual people are behind the screen name, and dont come looking for a fight. If you do all those things, this place can be very positive and rewarding.
They made a lot of guns and parts long before ever being awarded any contract for the M16 family of weapons so I don't know that I would seek out their parts.
YMMV.
C4
Indeed. They were Ramus and made mini-gun barrels and Ma-Deuce barrels for decades.
I bought 2 of their AR's over a period of a few years.
The first was as well-made as the second, but the staking was not TDP for a new gas-key, but rather looked like what is described as how you stake a replacement key in the field. The second, supposedly after they were awarded the TDP, was staked "correctly" and I did notice that everything about it looked like it should look compared to the Colt's my Dad owns.
The fit/finish of the SDI rifles I had was flawless. I really liked the stuff they made. It's a shame they chose to do what they did.
I now own Noveske.
Is it true that they use STAG LPK's?
If so, why bother with a badass barrel to ham-string it with STAG, or is STAG "acceptable"?
I agree, and not just because I was banned. M4C is a special type of forum, with members who have proven experience in this field. Be they MFG'ers, retailers, instructors, high ranking military/contractors etc. When they say they have seen a negative pattern from a company, they say that from true experience. CGN and many other forums are made up of random joe's who tout their own 200rds a year as experience that can match Larry Vickers'. Take the time to understand this forum and what it is about, learn who the actual people are behind the screen name, and dont come looking for a fight. If you do all those things, this place can be very positive and rewarding.
That is the EXACT reason why I joined. If you re-read this thread at no point did I call anyone out or pick a fight. I only provided what I thought and asked for reasons to back up their statements and I didn't get it till Grant cleared it up.
I understand there are many industry professionals in here and I love here things straight from the source.
Indeed. They were Ramus and made mini-gun barrels and Ma-Deuce barrels for decades.
I bought 2 of their AR's over a period of a few years.
The first was as well-made as the second, but the staking was not TDP for a new gas-key, but rather looked like what is described as how you stake a replacement key in the field. The second, supposedly after they were awarded the TDP, was staked "correctly" and I did notice that everything about it looked like it should look compared to the Colt's my Dad owns.
The fit/finish of the SDI rifles I had was flawless. I really liked the stuff they made. It's a shame they chose to do what they did.
I now own Noveske.
Is it true that they use STAG LPK's?
If so, why bother with a badass barrel to ham-string it with STAG, or is STAG "acceptable"?
My assumption is that Noveske probably understands that people who choose SS barrels like theirs usually get an aftermarket trigger.
That is the EXACT reason why I joined. If you re-read this thread at no point did I call anyone out or pick a fight. I only provided what I thought and asked for reasons to back up their statements and I didn't get it till Grant cleared it up.
I understand there are many industry professionals in here and I love here things straight from the source.
My assumption is that Noveske probably understands that people who choose SS barrels like theirs usually get an aftermarket trigger.
I didn't get the SS barrel and I still had them drop in the SSA. There is a lot more to a reliable LPK than the FCG, though.
Further refute for your statement is that the SSA or other triggers are NOT standard with their stainless barrels, so no, it doesn't sound like they assume that.
If they are well informed its not very apparent. I haven't gotten a straight answer till you came in here. Hell, a member tried to offer that because RRA chambers are out of spec that RRA lpk's are also out of spec. That is a logical fallacy in the fullest. Now he had said that there are many examples of RRA lpk's being out of spec and therefore its not likely that RRA and DD lpks share the same parts then I would have taken note and said thank you.
As for the RRA lpk's being out of spec. I will deffinately keep that in mind. Thank you.
You have to remember, that many get bored with answering the same question ove and over (like this one). So they just say that something is "out of spec" or "low quality" and move on.
IMHO, if a company produces barrels with out of spec chambers (on a regular basis), their LPK's can't be far behind.
C4
I didn't get the SS barrel and I still had them drop in the SSA. There is a lot more to a reliable LPK than the FCG, though.
Further refute for your statement is that the SSA or other triggers are NOT standard with their stainless barrels, so no, it doesn't sound like they assume that.
My point was that people like to put in THEIR choice of aftermarket triggers. If Noveske threw in a certain trigger in their rifles that would defeat the purpose.
As for the other parts you have a point.
You have to remember, that many get bored with answering the same question ove and over (like this one). So they just say that something is "out of spec" or "low quality" and move on.
IMHO, if a company produces barrels with out of spec chambers (on a regular basis), their LPK's can't be far behind.
C4
But some took the time to responded multiple times and never offered an explanation.
As for the chamber quality equating to other parts quality... you may be right but its just an assumption. I don't think many have had problems with RRA lowers. I'm sorry if I don't accept that argument. Perhaps its the engineering school that has made me skeptical about ANY claims unless backed up with facts.
I think i'll just shut up for a while and read some more even though I've been lurking for over a year already. haha
But some took the time to responded multiple times and never offered an explanation.
They view it as a waste of time (like putting lipstick on a pig). Not that you are a pig, but some folks are new to the AR and you just can't tell them anything.
As for the chamber quality equating to other parts quality... you may be right but its just an assumption. I don't think many have had problems with RRA lowers. I'm sorry if I don't accept that argument. Perhaps its the engineering school that has made me skeptical about ANY claims unless backed up with facts.
I think i'll just shut up for a while and read some more even though I've been lurking for over a year already. haha
Most forged lowers are good. Rarely will you see a problem with a stripped lower.
C4
They view it as a waste of time (like putting lipstick on a pig). Not that you are a pig, but some folks are new to the AR and you just can't tell them anything.
Most forged lowers are good. Rarely will you see a problem with a stripped lower.
C4
Yes I know you weren't calling me a pig and no one is trying to put lipstick on me hahaha.
As for most lowers being good. I know this. I offered it as an example to get my point across. Still this is all moot. I believe you when you say that you've seen a lot of RRA lpks that are out of spec. You have seen way more lpks already than I will see in a lifetime.
Yes I know you weren't calling me a pig and no one is trying to put lipstick on me hahaha.
As for most lowers being good. I know this. I offered it as an example to get my point across. Still this is all moot. I believe you when you say that you've seen a lot of RRA lpks that are out of spec. You have seen way more lpks already than I will see in a lifetime.
I personally own RRA lowers. They are just fine and I would never get too excited about them or any other lower for that matter. What matters WAAAAAY more is what you fill them with. So RRA LPK's would NOT be my first, second, third, fourth or fifth choice (if that tells you anything).
C4
charmcitycop
01-30-12, 12:00
.....
Does anyone have a realistic estimate of how many places even make LPKs or even BCGs for that matter? It can't be that many.
Does Colt really manufacture their own detent springs and roll pins? really?
just curious.
Does anyone have a realistic estimate of how many places even make LPKs or even BCGs for that matter? It can't be that many.
Does Colt really manufacture their own detent springs and roll pins? really?
just curious.
It is hard to say. I have some kind of idea, but then again, I am constantly seeing new sources pop us so I am hesitant to even guess now.
Companies can also buy the rough forging and finish grind the part in house (which is what LMT does for certain things).
Yes, Colt says they make everything in house (springs and detents included).
C4
If they are well informed its not very apparent. I haven't gotten a straight answer till you came in here. Hell, a member tried to offer that because RRA chambers are out of spec that RRA lpk's are also out of spec. That is a logical fallacy in the fullest. Now he had said that there are many examples of RRA lpk's being out of spec and therefore its not likely that RRA and DD lpks share the same parts then I would have taken note and said thank you.
As for the RRA lpk's being out of spec. I will deffinately keep that in mind. Thank you.
It comes down to trusting the company you are buying from. A rifle chamber is critical to proper function, if RRA can't even be bothered to get that right why the HELL would i trust them to make trigger group? LPK stuff generally all appears to work. The questions is whether some half ass manufacturer's MIM hammer is going to snap off when you need it. I'll happily spend the extra 50 bucks for BCM or colt.
As for the chamber quality equating to other parts quality... you may be right but its just an assumption. I don't think many have had problems with RRA lowers. I'm sorry if I don't accept that argument. Perhaps its the engineering school that has made me skeptical about ANY claims unless backed up with facts.
Thanks for participating, Richie. This horse is just about a skeleton by now, but your comment above struck a chord with me... Remember that engineering training also stresses the ability to make a decision under the constraint of limited data. The picture of an engineer paralyzed by analysis is wrong, IMHO. As a practicing PE I rarely have the time to vet all angles of the problem. Maximize the benefit in the minimum time, while also ensuring the minimum goals are met.
This concept applied to fighting ARs makes time spent trying to quantifiably discuss the source and quality of manufacturer XYZ's parts versus Colt/BCM/etc. a little academic. I'll NEVER have the ability to do the science fair project proving who's King of the Hill myself. And while anectdotal evidence is after all just an anectdote, at some point I have to accept that the best data available are simply the experiences of others on this forum.
Which means the conclusions I make are in fact just assumptions (like you noted to someone else above), but they're safe assumptions. I can accept that there's nothing WRONG with using Colt/BCM/DD/LMT/Noveske. And since the alternatives are no more available and no less costly (relatively speaking), but they introduce risk by raising the "quality" flag in the first place, then the engineer in me finds no point in discussing them.
This wasn't meant to nit-pick... just defending the profession, since with our pocket protectors we're an easy target.
Even though this post went totally askew I feel like I know a little more about my OG question than before. Thanks for input/discussion.
I personally own RRA lowers. They are just fine and I would never get too excited about them or any other lower for that matter. What matters WAAAAAY more is what you fill them with. So RRA LPK's would NOT be my first, second, third, fourth or fifth choice (if that tells you anything).
C4
I forget which lower it is, might be one of the Colts, but it will NOT accept a PMAG. I will have to go through all the AR's in the safe and figure out which it is, but I was shocked that the Oly was G2G and the one that wasn't, wasn't. I want to say it was the HBAR6601 that would not accept. Will update.
It comes down to trusting the company you are buying from. A rifle chamber is critical to proper function, if RRA can't even be bothered to get that right why the HELL would i trust them to make trigger group? LPK stuff generally all appears to work. The questions is whether some half ass manufacturer's MIM hammer is going to snap off when you need it. I'll happily spend the extra 50 bucks for BCM or colt.
Exactly. Look at it this way, if your doctor walked into your room with the wrong chart, called you by someone else's name, and launched into asking you how you were feeling since he started the Zosyn 72 hours ago (which you were never on), how would you feel about your upcoming surgery with him in a few hours? Trust him? He sure can't get any other shit right. How about the knife, now?
.
Dadgummit! These 16-hour days sure make you miss a lot of fun.
Let me elaborate a little on my earlier, and evidently stupid comment (since it has be repeated on another forum,) of comparing a bad RRA chamber to an LPK quality. I guess I needed to expound on the "...blah...blah...’s" I ended with.
Well, the "...blah...blah..." stood for the Castle Nut coming loose on my brother's AR (just locktite'd), the obviously canted FSB on a new gun on the store shelf, a friend's RRA having intermittent failures to extract with NATO rounds, no standard for CL barrels, poor/bad trigger threads, and so on...
Honestly, I do not have any experience with a failure with a RRA LPK.
However, I do not have the time or the money to test and examine every single part on every single gun to be able to say, "Brand X’s Mag Release is great but everything else they make sucks" or "all of Brand Y’s stuff is trash except their Front Sight Post and Boy Howdy, it is the best in the industry”.
I think this sums up my feelings pretty good…
James 3:11 (NIV)
"Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?"
Evidently, some people think so...
But maybe it’s just me…
.
I personally won't use anything but Genuine COLT Parts.
Bob
Where do you buy them? Grant is out and Brownells does not sell a full kit.
You have to remember, that many get bored with answering the same question ove and over (like this one). So they just say that something is "out of spec" or "low quality" and move on.
IMHO, if a company produces barrels with out of spec chambers (on a regular basis), their LPK's can't be far behind.
C4
That only makes sense. If one part is substandard others will likely be too.
You can get them from brownells, last I checked.
They sell everything but FCG and the FCG they sell is large line only according to the answer I recived on line a week it so back. I did find a Colt trigger but couldn't find a Colt semi disconnect only FA.
Bob
Where do you buy them? Grant is out and Brownells does not sell a full kit.
Specialized Armament http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/AR_15_Parts-4-0.html
Thanks Bob.Found it. Their prices usually scare me off. These don't.
http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/LOWER_REC_PARTS_KIT_COLT_0_155_SEMI-262-279.html
http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/COLT_HIGH_WEAR_PARTS_KIT_SEMI_AUTO_0_155-834-279.html
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