View Full Version : How bad is RRA?
Out of the bottom tier AR makers how bad is RRA? I ask this because I have always wanted a Knight Armament SR-47., and I just saw where RRA is bringing out their version of it. It will be called the LAR-47 and it uses AK magazines.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/new-from-rock-river-arms-lar-47-ar-15-in-7-62x39-that-takes-ak-mags/
Not trying to start a fight about the quality of RRA, just wondering if this would be a good starting point for a good 7.62x39mm AR15 that uses a correct magazine for feeding this round.
Before I found this site, I bought a RRA 16” carbine. I would never say RRA is anywhere near as good as a BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT, and my BCM is my go to gun, but I’ve put over 5,000 rounds through my RRA with only 1 ammo related malfunction (crappy ammo). It’s been through multiple classes in multiple weather conditions and has always run great.
Are RRAs tier 1? Definitely not. Would I buy another one? Not with so many better options to choose from. Would I trust my life to mine? Based on it’s track record so far, Yes.
That is only 1 sample size, but I hope it helps a little.
ETA: And I have no experience with their 7.62x39 model. Sorry
Since their standard AR's are mediocre. Why would anyone think that making an AR which is much more difficult in this set up would be good?
I'd stay away from it. And if I wanted 762x39 I would get an AK.
Suwannee Tim
01-26-12, 21:11
I'm not going to start a hot argument or invite calumnies by stating that RR is an excellent AR. I have one and have seen several others and have seen no reason to question their quality, durability or serviceability. 458 SOCOM is nearing the the top of my "to get" list and it will be a RR.
Nightvisionary
01-26-12, 22:58
Didn't U.S. Customs and Border Protection adopt the Rock River as it's standard issue carbine a few years back? I know they had something to that effect in many of their ads for a long time.
I was looking at purchasing one back then. This was back when Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite and Olympic were the big names in AR's. Most of the companies like BCM were not around yet.
I wonder how they got that order.
Nope, that was the DEA. CBP/USBP issues Colt M4A1 carbines.
I hear a lot of people on here say they are shitty, but I have not heard a single person say why.
Seems like there is a lot of regurgitation going on.
DeltaSierra
01-26-12, 23:30
I hear a lot of people on here say they are shitty, but I have not heard a single person say why.
Seems like there is a lot of regurgitation going on.
Huh?
Might want to do a little more research before you do any more regurgitation of your own...
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82739&highlight=updated+m4+chart
Not exactly "shitty," but for the same money there are much better options these days.
Huh?
Might want to do a little more research before you do any more regurgitation of your own...
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82739&highlight=updated+m4+chart
Why did you just reply with a link that has absolutely nothing on RRA?
Did you even bother to read it before you posted it?
William B.
01-26-12, 23:40
I hear a lot of people on here say they are shitty, but I have not heard a single person say why.
Seems like there is a lot of regurgitation going on.
My sample of one sucked because every range session, after firing a few rounds, the bolt would lock into the chamber, would not unlock, and I would be done shooting for the day.
DeltaSierra
01-26-12, 23:44
Why did you just reply with a link that has absolutely nothing on RRA?
Did you even bother to read it before you posted it?
Yeah, I know what I posted, and there is good reason for posting it.
They make such a low-end product that they didn't respond to Rob when he was putting the chart together. That should speak volumes, if anyone was listening.
The fact is, if you want information, there is a search button - it works quite well - that you can use to gather information as to the more technical aspects of why Rock River isn't worth buying.
Now, here are a couple of homework assignments....
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65729
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
Yeah, I know what I posted, and there is good reason for posting it.
They make such a low-end product that they didn't respond to Rob when he was putting the chart together. That should speak volumes, if anyone was listening.
The fact is, if you want information, there is a search button - it works quite well - that you can use to gather information as to the more technical aspects of why Rock River isn't worth buying.
God forbid Rock River Arms didn't respond to the all-knowing rob_s.
According to your logic, the quality of a product is dependent on a company's response to rob_s.
Absolutely ridiculous.
And I have used the search button and came up with nothing about why
If you can't back up your info, why should I believe you aren't doing anything more than regurgitating someone else's opinion?
I have an RRA 9mm SBR. It is mediocre to be honest. Hold the 8" RRA 9mm next to an 8" Noveske 300BLK platform and you can quickly tell the difference just in the quality of parts and exactness of fitting.
RRA works but there are much better guns out there for the same price.
This may not speak for their entire weapon set ups, but I gave them a chance when I bought their NM 2 stage trigger. The trigger completely shit the bed in under 1000 rounds. The first stage disappeared and then it began to double fire not too long after. If you do some searching you will find that many other people had similar results. I for one will not be giving my money to a company that is content with puttung out a sub par product. There may be RRA rifles out there that work fine, but there are certainly better options. If your going to get a rifle for self-defense do you really want to rely on a company that cuts corners?
IMO rra is the most over hyped brand out there.
Right after the awb expired in 04 I went out and bought my first ar which was a rra. At the time colts were non existant and all you could find were bushy and rra. I chose rra because the "fit and finish" were better and the recievers were tighter... Basically back before I knew any better. In the subsequent year after taking some classes I experienced a loose gas key, a loose castle nut and the associated failures, which while easily remedied, were a pita to have to deal with. Needless to say in 08 I traded it off towards a s&w m&p15 and never looked back.
I think most hit the nail on the head saying for the money there are much better choices out there.
Until the ACR matures, the AR will be my platform of choice. It would be nice to have a reliable AR that shoots 7.62x39 and takes AK mags; KAC would make a quick buck off me by offering the SR-47 (and PDW) for sale. Disappointing that RRA chose a mag release paddle/lever instead of a release button.
-B
Nightvisionary
01-27-12, 01:57
Nope, that was the DEA. CBP/USBP issues Colt M4A1 carbines.
Yeah that's right it was the DEA. I wonder how that worked out for them.
To the best of my knowledge they went back to Colt although they still have them in service.
Yeah that's right it was the DEA. I wonder how that worked out for them.
Animal_Mother556
01-27-12, 05:02
RRA works but there are much better guns out there for the same price.
I think this is what it really boils down to. Why in the name of God would you not pay an extra $50 or $100 (Or the SAME price in some cases) for a rifle that is built better.
To me it is like a Ford Taurus costing $500 less than an M3...and people defend the Taurus for being "just as good"
I shot a RRA midlength at the recommendation of one of our local FPS/ICE guys. I had no issues after many range and training sessions. I had it sent to Grant for upgrades, and it came back even better. I then proceeded to get educated and bought a Noveske. No comparison. End of story.
Eurodriver
01-27-12, 06:26
God forbid Rock River Arms didn't respond to the all-knowing rob_s.
According to your logic, the quality of a product is dependent on a company's response to rob_s.
Absolutely ridiculous.
And I have used the search button and came up with nothing about why
If you can't back up your info, why should I believe you aren't doing anything more than regurgitating someone else's opinion?
Do you own an RRA?
Inferior bolt steel - Its not Carpenter 158
Inferior barrel steel - Usually 4140 and not 4150 CMV
Lack of staking on gas keys and castle nuts
1:9 twist rate barrels
Overgassed gas systems
Lacking proper 5.56mm chambers
I'm not going to go into A.) Proof that these are correct or B.) Why they're important. Those can all be easily found with a Google search and lets be real. I know your RRA has "a thousand rounds through it with no issues" so you're not going to care anyway.
The_War_Wagon
01-27-12, 06:36
Nope, that was the DEA.
Guess they ran all the GOOD rifles to Mexican drug lords... :rolleyes:
Great rifles in 2003
Meh in 2012
Suwannee Tim
01-28-12, 04:51
....Lack of staking on gas keys and castle nuts.....
Bullshit.
Do you own an RRA?......
Yes. Do you? Have you ever seen an unstaked RRA or are you just repeating bullshit you have heard?
I have seen dozens of these guns on the range and dozens of Bushies. I examine every one I can. I have never seen one with an unstaked gas key or castle nut. What am I supposed to believe, "The Chart" or my lying eyes?
I owned one. I suppose I still do since I sold off the upper half to help defray the costs of a nice Arsenal.
The castle nut was loctited rather than staked. I discovered this when I swapped the stock for an evil one when the ban fell.
The gas key was staked, but with a limp wrist.
Eurodriver
01-28-12, 06:34
Bullshit.
Yes. Do you? Have you ever seen an unstaked RRA or are you just repeating bullshit you have heard?
I have seen dozens of these guns on the range and dozens of Bushies. I examine every one I can. I have never seen one with an unstaked gas key or castle nut. What am I supposed to believe, "The Chart" or my lying eyes?
LOL, you pick the one thing you have "experience" with and call BS when thats been discussed time and time again.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. They do "stake" their gas keys (I've never seen a Bushy or an RRA with staked castle nuts: EVER.) but they use undersized bolts and do a weak ass job of staking the key, both making it a complete waste of time.
Have you ever seen a proper stake job?
But lets put that aside for a minute.
What about the other points I listed that you conveniently ignored? You gonna sit here and tell me they have true 5.56mm chambers? Call bullshit on that and I'll be glad to ignore you, as I know you're full of shit.
Bullshit.
Yes. Do you? Have you ever seen an unstaked RRA or are you just repeating bullshit you have heard?
I have seen dozens of these guns on the range and dozens of Bushies. I examine every one I can. I have never seen one with an unstaked gas key or castle nut. What am I supposed to believe, "The Chart" or my lying eyes?
Bullshit on your bullshit. I've seen a metric shit ton of Bushmasters with no staking on the gas key, wrong front sight bases, unstaked buffer tubes, tight chambers, etc..
I have less experience with RRA, but the 3 or 4 I've seen have had weak to ornamental staking on gas keys, 1/9 4140 CM steel. Don't recall buffer tube staking.
The respected armorers I know say likewise.
I owned a RRA for a while, a few years ago...and to my eternal lament, work on many for customers now. I will never purchase another.
-gas key was staked, but not properly.
-castle nut was not staked at all, but locktited...yup, locktited.
-substandard steels in their bolts/carriers.
while i do not care about people's personal pref, between 1:7 and 1:9 twist rates, over gassing is a big bad juju!
When someone brings a rock river to me to ..."fix" it is usually something above that has caused it.
FWIW
My RRA (was) started life as an ET. I sold off the upper at a gun show to fund a Midlength BCM 16 LW. The lower and all the internals are still there. I figured I would swap out parts as they fail. This hybrid is not my only AR.
Animal_Mother556
01-28-12, 09:38
Bullshit on your bullshit. I've seen a metric shit ton of Bushmasters with no staking on the gas key, wrong front sight bases, unstaked buffer tubes, tight chambers, etc..
I have less experience with RRA, but the 3 or 4 I've seen have had weak to ornamental staking on gas keys, 1/9 4140 CM steel. Don't recall buffer tube staking.
The respected armorers I know say likewise.
In reference to this, a couple of years ago... A local department RRA (don't recall model, but was a carbine) was having some issues. Short-stroking if I recall. I discovered the gas key was wiggling. This rifle had about 500 rounds through it. For shites and gigs, I backed out the screws....and there was almost ZERO interference from the "staking". The screws came right out. Piss-poor
LOL, you pick the one thing you have "experience" with and call BS when thats been discussed time and time again.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. They do "stake" their gas keys (I've never seen a Bushy or an RRA with staked castle nuts: EVER.) but they use undersized bolts and do a weak ass job of staking the key, both making it a complete waste of time.
Have you ever seen a proper stake job?
But lets put that aside for a minute.
What about the other points I listed that you conveniently ignored? You gonna sit here and tell me they have true 5.56mm chambers? Call bullshit on that and I'll be glad to ignore you, as I know you're full of shit.
I'm interested on this topic, you say RRA rifles don't have true 5.56 chambers, then what do they have? I'm would really like to know. If there is a link to someones testing of a RRA rifle I would like to see it.
Eurodriver
01-28-12, 09:58
I'm interested on this topic, you say RRA rifles don't have true 5.56 chambers, then what do they have? I'm would really like to know. If there is a link to someones testing of a RRA rifle I would like to see it.
They are somewhere between 5.56mm and .223, almost as if they are reamed with a worn out 5.56mm or an oversized .223 reamer.
Best bet, for anyone owning a hobby grade AR, is to get one of Ned Christiansen's gages and check their rifle themselves. There seems to be very little consistency with these rifles.
http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php
These threads are like watching a ****ing train wreck..:neo:
Like trying to convince a mother her babies Ugly. :nono:
oh goodie, another thread where those that own inferior get a chance to shriek "nuh uh!" and those who only bought superior to feel superior can go "uh huh!"
These discussions are ****ing stupid. The information is there. You are NOT going to convince a guy that bought an RRA and never had trouble with it that his sample of one, or 100, is meaningless and that he has an inferior product based on:
Material
Material Finish
Material Testing
Dimension/Configuration
Assembly Method
Whether or not someone replies to my request for information for the Chart is not, in and of itself, indicative of a poor product, but taken in concert with other information it may be a piece of the puzzle to determining their overall quality. If they are proud of their product, and do things correctly, what do they have to hide? I have the utmost respect for companies like DSA and CMMG that may not tick every box but at least have the pride in their products to participate.
(enter the "who the **** are you that they have to answer to?" wailing and gnashing of teeth, and typically some sort of personal insult thrown my way to make themselves feel better)
The flipside is, to those that seem to always pop up in threads like this to rail on the guy with his "flawless" RRA, why do you give a shit? He already bought it. He's happy with it. Leave him the **** alone. If he posts something factually incorrect refute it once and move on. He's not going to listen anyway. "what should I believe, the sample of one in my hands or the hundreds of people that have had problems?" I don't know the answer to that, but who really cares? If some guy wants to rock out with his 200 rounds/year slowfire through his RRA, or DPMS, or Oly or whatever, who cares? You're not going to change his mind, and to anybody that already knows better he'll hang himself with his own words.
My sample size = 3.
One runs like a raped ape with no problem in high round count courses.
Two have hammer pin walk issues. I've sold one, but I've kept the 7.62 variant and installed KNS pins. Very good accuracy for the price.
Elsewhere in the firearms world, the RRA is pretty well regarded, and I'd agree, but for my experience with pin-walk issues.
The majority of AR owners, likely including most in this thread, don't shoot their rifles enough to stress them to the point where they can render any kind of valid opinion as to reliability of their firearms. Instead, we rely on the opinions of SME's, of which there is a relatively large number here on M4C. I've never even shot a Bushmaster, but I read and hear from armorers and other experts that they have a higher tendency to have QC problems than other brands in the same price range. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, even from them, but my inclination is "why take a chance?" It makes more sense to buy a rifle that the (knowledgeable) consensus agrees is good, and avoid the ones that it says is bad.
I have yet to see a subject matter expert support Bushmaster as a reliable firearm. That's enough for me to spend a couple hundred $$$ more and get one that is higher up the chain.
Eurodriver
01-28-12, 10:18
These threads are like watching a ****ing train wreck..:neo:
Like trying to convince a mother her babies Ugly. :nono:
:D
You're telling me its not fun to insert a factually correct statement to see all of the people who bought an RRA and now need to justify their purchase come of out the woodwork to hoot and holler?
This is great. Its almost as fun as arguing imported VTEC Hondas vs domestic V8 Chevys.
These threads never go well.... Someone will get banned if they keep the baiting and bitching tactics. M4C has really cool moderators and they always provide enough rope for one to hang themselves.
M4C has a perceived reputation by owners of "questionable quality" firearms to be full of elitists that think they own the best and know everything. Thin skinned people should not ask a question when they know what the response will bring. To me that's like a woman with a big fat ass asking if her jeans make her ass look fat. :lol:
Didn't U.S. Customs and Border Protection adopt the Rock River as it's standard issue carbine a few years back? I know they had something to that effect in many of their ads for a long time.
I was looking at purchasing one back then. This was back when Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite and Olympic were the big names in AR's. Most of the companies like BCM were not around yet.
I wonder how they got that order.
They GAVE them the rifles. Very smart business move on RRA's part because now when anyone asks about the quality, peope will point back to the feds "choosing" the rifle.
C4
I hear a lot of people on here say they are shitty, but I have not heard a single person say why.
Seems like there is a lot of regurgitation going on.
This is easy. Nothing meets the lowest standard for a fighting gun (TDP or "Mil-Spec").
So if they cannot meet the lowest of standards, what does that say about them????
They use lower grade materials, do not HPT/MPI, over gassed, not assembled properly, etc etc.
For the record, the FIRST AR I ever bought was a RRA. The second was a BM. :)
C4
Bullshit.
Yes. Do you? Have you ever seen an unstaked RRA or are you just repeating bullshit you have heard?
I have seen dozens of these guns on the range and dozens of Bushies. I examine every one I can. I have never seen one with an unstaked gas key or castle nut. What am I supposed to believe, "The Chart" or my lying eyes?
As someone that FIXES RRA and BM AR's, there is a difference between staked and staked properly. Meaning, you can have a "stake" mark on the gas key, but it isn't actually doing anything.
Example; the bolts are undersized so no amount of "staking" is ever going to secure these bolts.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BM/Factory%20gas%20key.jpg
Here it is done right. Notice how the bolts almost touch the side walls of the gas key??
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/BM/Gas%20key%20getting%20staked.jpg
C4
I'm interested on this topic, you say RRA rifles don't have true 5.56 chambers, then what do they have? I'm would really like to know. If there is a link to someones testing of a RRA rifle I would like to see it.
.223 Wylde
Suwannee Tim
01-28-12, 11:29
.....Have you ever seen a proper stake job?....
Does Colt and LMT properly stake their gas keys? Yes, I have seen a proper stake job.
....What about the other points I listed that you conveniently ignored? You gonna sit here and tell me they have true 5.56mm chambers?.....
I do not know Euro. I "conveniently ignored" things I have no first hand knowledge of. I use the gas key staking as an illustration of the lack of objectivity of post writers because it is quick and easy to determine if they key is staked unlike chamber dimensions or barrel steel.
....I know you're full of shit.
No, you think I am full of shit Euro and somehow that gets inflated to "know", presumably in the same way that your opinion of RRA gets inflated to knowledge.
.....Lack of staking on gas keys....
How many unstaked gas keys have you seen Euro? Out of how many total? How many chambers have you determined are out of spec?
As someone that FIXES RRA and BM AR's, there is a difference between staked and staked properly. Meaning, you can have a "stake" mark on the gas key, but it isn't actually doing anything.....
Agreed. When I say "properly staked" I mean the surface of the interior of the counterbore is in solid contact with the screw head.
Don't get me wrong. I have never stated that the RRAs and Bushies are top quality guns. I do challenge opinion that is presented as fact.
Also notice when Grant states he has repaired RRAs and Bushies or when Iraqgunz states he had to rehabilitate 500 Bushies I do not challenge them because I believe them. Their credibility speaks for itself.
my answer??
Should have bought a BCM. i built my M16A4 clone for less than you spent on your RRA. mine wont fall apart on me or blow up in my face. Do you know, MOST of my time on this forum is spent reading? These guys know what they are talking about for a reason. If it's something i would question letting a loved one shoot because im afraid it would fall apart or blow up on them, then i wouldnt want to own it.
Given the amount of class AARs, photos, and troubleshooting posts that get made, why do these threads even exist? Read.
Suwannee Tim
01-28-12, 14:10
Out of the bottom tier AR makers how bad is RRA?....
To answer the OQ, in my humble and barely informed opinion which was formed on a rifle range not in front of a computer: If there are two tiers in the tier system you can make the case RR is in the bottom tier, you might also make the case it is in the top tier. If there are three or more tiers RRA is not in the bottom tier. RRA guns are not bad, they are not junk. If you buy one and it is not right they will fix it. If you shoot it so much it breaks then send it back and they will fix it or send you the parts so you can fix it. It ain't like you have a myriad of choices in this style of weapon.
bakercountyboy
01-28-12, 15:01
About 4 yrs ago i had bought my first AR and it was a RRA entry tactical. I will say i never had any problems out of it other then the fact that the castle nut was NOT staked, which i should have noticed before i left the store. I later sold it and used the funds for a SA socom 16. The AR i have now is the dreaded Stag Model 8 EVIL piston model. Between me and my buddy thats on swat we have BEAT the shit out of this stag and it keeps on eating everything you put into her. I have owned this stag for less then a year and between the training i do for the state agency i work for and the stuff he does for swat. Were closing in on 4k rounds with zero problems. I think think there are better rifles out there for the same money as an RRA.
I'm not one to say that stag is just as good as colt,bcm,dd etc. I mean hell even i have a hard on for a DD Mk18 factory sbr which i hope to be purchasing this year.
Ok....not to throw a TURD in the Punch Bowl but I personally don't get the whole Staked Castle Nut making a gun a piece of shit. In fact.............. My Knights Armament SR15-E3 that I purchased from Lawmen's last year came with a un staked Castle Nut.:big_boss:.
So maybe the fact that a Castle Nut is not staked is kinda a dumb reason to call a gun a piece of shit. :jester:
Carry on with the bashing.....:neo:
Before you read my responses below I would like it understood that I do not own a RRA gun. I own several ARs and each one has been built by me "from the ground up." I do have 1 16" RRA barrel with a mid-length gas system. l use it on a F/A RR in "belt fed" matches. (they changed the rules to allow detachable box magazines) That barrel has performed well and been abused a lot. I have even shot Wolff ammo through it at the matches without an issue.
I have only owned one AR that came complete from the factory and that was a Colt 9mm. I bought it because I got a good deal on it and immediately sold it for a $400 profit.
Do you own an RRA?
Inferior bolt steel - Its not Carpenter 158
Of all the "inferior" issues you listed this one bothers me the most. Buying a new bolt will correct it.
Inferior barrel steel - Usually 4140 and not 4150 CMV
4140 v. 4150 is a non issue for me except in a F/A gun that is going to be used on F/A a lot
Lack of staking on gas keys and castle nuts
This is so easy to correct it is a non issue. Yes it should have been done at the factory but I wouldn't pass up a deal because of this.
1:9 twist rate barrels
This may be an issue depending on what weight bullets you are going to use. If you work for an agency that only issues 55 gr-62 gr which many do then it is not an issue. I have not had any issues with Hornady 75 gr bullets in 1-9 barrels.
Overgassed gas systems
Up to a certain point I like over gassed guns. I know many here don't. I want my gun to cycle with weaker ammo also. I attended a 4 day 40 hour 1500 rd carbine class and used weak Wolff ammo without any malfunctions. The gun also shoots my Federal duty ammo and WWB practice ammo
Lacking proper 5.56mm chambers
I prefer Wylde chambers. If that is what RRA is using then that is a plus to me.
...
Nope, that was the DEA. CBP/USBP issues Colt M4A1 carbines.
And RRA lost that contract shortly thereafter for poor quality control.
So maybe the fact that a Castle Nut is not staked is kinda a dumb reason to call a gun a piece of shit.
But putting enough loctite on the castle nut and receiver extension so that you cant get them apart without using enough heat to destroy parts is a good idea? :rolleyes:
I agree....putting Loctite on a Castle nut is ****ing pretty dumb. Don't take my post wrong I have no dog in the fight. I have Knights, BCM , LMT and Daniel Defense. :dance3:
polymorpheous
01-28-12, 18:16
This thread is a good example of what has happened to this forum recently.
A handful of members who have been around for a year or so, with thousands of posts.
Extremely argumentative and obviously NOT reading more and posting less.
:(
I know this is a heated topic but I've had my RRA for several years with absolutely NO problems. Not everyone who buys an AR wants or NEEDS a mil-spec rifle. For my casual target shooting and hunting it has been perfect.
I think this is what it really boils down to. Why in the name of God would you not pay an extra $50 or $100 (Or the SAME price in some cases) for a rifle that is built better.
To me it is like a Ford Taurus costing $500 less than an M3...and people defend the Taurus for being "just as good"
+1
Great way to put it.
To answer the OQ, in my humble and barely informed opinion which was formed on a rifle range not in front of a computer:
this kind of nonsense has got to stop. by posting this you imply that the other poster, or for that matter anyone that disagrees with your opinion, formed theirs in some way that is lesser to your own.
Keep hanging your hat on the ONE thing you think you have, a staked gas key, and the rest of us will have to content ourselves with seeing these guns go down ON THE RANGE.
I was at a local store showing a friend the differences in ARs. The two RRAs in stock had loose castle nuts. One was so loose in fact that it was backed off about 1/8 inch from the plate. The other was easily unscrewed with minimal effort. This was the same with the Bushmasters as well. The guy behind the counter said they (the RRAs) were just put out that morning straight out of the box. Only a sample of two but.....
RRA should have stuck to building very nice 1911s........
But no, they entered an AR market that was already almost saturated and went with it to make a buck. The end result that turned out was not up to snuff. One of the reasons I sold my upper. IMHO.
I know this is a heated topic but I've had my RRA for several years with absolutely NO problems. Not everyone who buys an AR wants or NEEDS a mil-spec rifle. For my casual target shooting and hunting it has been perfect.
Again, I haven't seen RRA carbines for less than quality guns. It's the paying BMW M3 prices for a Ford Taurus argument.
It doesn't matter if you NEED quality or not; why pay more for an inferior gun?
I've seen RRAs for sale at local stores for $1200.
my answer??
Should have bought a BCM. i built my M16A4 clone for less than you spent on your RRA. mine wont fall apart on me or blow up in my face. Do you know, MOST of my time on this forum is spent reading? These guys know what they are talking about for a reason. If it's something i would question letting a loved one shoot because im afraid it would fall apart or blow up on them, then i wouldnt want to own it.
"Blow up in your face" is a bit much. Even the lowest quality ARs will not "blow up in your face".
Ok....not to throw a TURD in the Punch Bowl but I personally don't get the whole Staked Castle Nut making a gun a piece of shit. In fact.............. My Knights Armament SR15-E3 that I purchased from Lawmen's last year came with a un staked Castle Nut.:big_boss:.
So maybe the fact that a Castle Nut is not staked is kinda a dumb reason to call a gun a piece of shit. :jester:
Carry on with the bashing.....:neo:
That was actually a fluke (not the norm). Most all companies have probably forgot to stake a castle nut or two.
C4
Ok....not to throw a TURD in the Punch Bowl but I personally don't get the whole Staked Castle Nut making a gun a piece of shit. In fact.............. My Knights Armament SR15-E3 that I purchased from Lawmen's last year came with a un staked Castle Nut.:big_boss:.
So maybe the fact that a Castle Nut is not staked is kinda a dumb reason to call a gun a piece of shit. :jester:
Carry on with the bashing.....:neo:
My KAC SR15-E3 castle nut is not staked either. From I have read here KAC does not stake their castle nuts.
Dirk Williams
01-28-12, 22:55
I don't care if it's a bottom feeder,
I love shooting this 458. We were shooting Friday at 70 to 100y we were spliting 8x8 chunks of wood using the 230 or 220 grain bullets with 2 maybe 3 round impacts. What a bullet!
Also put around 800 rounds thru my new Vltor and a Colt 6940 I have. all three are wicked accurate.
FWIW, I was one who had a middle of the pack rifle and a couple of other bottom feeders. Rob abd the other SME's convinced me to do the right thing, I don't regret it at all.
In the end I saw the light and now own Noveske's Vltor's, Colts. I do have the one RRC 458 I traded for. Im not incline to get rid of this beast.
Dirk
scoutfsu99
01-28-12, 23:35
That was actually a fluke (not the norm). Most all companies have probably forgot to stake a castle nut or two.
C4
Grant,
Unless KAC is doing something new, they don't stake that.
Ok.
RRA has different options you can specify. 5.56 NATO or .223 or Wylde camber. Chrome-lined or not. I don't get this "their chambers are all jacked" argument. Yeah, if you order it that way, or you're to ignorant to know the difference at the gun shop.
I have a RRA Elite Comp midlength with an A1 fixed stock. No overgas issues, no 2-stage trigger issues, and I pitched the carrier for a BCM, so no issues there either. My only complaint is the weight of the free float rail.
After 2+ years and around 1500 rounds, ive had no problems. (fast-fire, on the ground, dropped, only cleaned once at about 600 rounds) Would I buy another one? No, because of better options for a more competitive price. NOT because the RRA has let me down. Once I put a lighter rail on this thing, it'll be a keeper. P. S. I run an EOTech on it too. No issues there either. Suck it trebek
scoutfsu99
01-29-12, 00:49
Depending on type of rifle, I think most people consider 1500 rounds a weekend class....not two years of shooting.
Grant,
They don't Stake Castle Nuts.... If they do they missed mine twice because I sent the rifle back for warranty work a month after I bought it and it came back without a staked castle nut. Like I said I don't view that particular item as something to bash any gun maker about unless it's falling off or fastened with Loctite.
My sample size = 3.
One runs like a raped ape with no problem in high round count courses.
Two have hammer pin walk issues. I've sold one, but I've kept the 7.62 variant and installed KNS pins. Very good accuracy for the price.
Elsewhere in the firearms world, the RRA is pretty well regarded, and I'd agree, but for my experience with pin-walk issues.
Would new springs not solve your walking pin issue?
Depending on type of rifle, I think most people consider 1500 rounds a weekend class....not two years of shooting.
True. I dont have that kind of money at this point in my life. Only adding my info.
Sounds like the consensus is as follows:
1) RRA doesn't make "bad" rifles
2) They're not very competitive with their pricing, as you can get better equipment for the same or less $
3) you will likely have to do a bit of fixing or modding their rifles to get them to 100%
4) some have had issues with their FCG, some have not.
5) most would not buy one again, either because of issues they've had, or because of a better deal elsewhere.
My personal experience and observations of RRA AR's.....
I have personally seen dozens, and likely over 100 factory RRA AR's come through classes I have attended over the past 6-7 years.
Non-staked gas key. There were 4 factory built RRA AR's in those classes that during a pre-range inspection were discovered to have gas keys that were not only NOT staked, but the keys were loose enough that they had play in them and could be wiggled around on the carriers. They were all brand-new rifles that had not yet been fired, and they apparently had not been test fired at the RRA factory.
My PD ordered 25 new 16" middies directly from the RRA factory for our gang/tactical unit against my advice. 15 out of the 25 delivered were DOA/non-functional out of the box due to an issue with the trigger groups that would not allow the triggers to reset during a standard (dry) function test. These all had standard non-two stage trigger groups in them. They were sent back to the factory and promptly fixed but they never should of left the factory in that condition. It is obvious that they never test fired any of these weapons either.
"Dremeled" feedramps. What is the point? If you shoot out the barrel or simply want to swap the barrel for a different profile, length, etc., you will basically have to replace the upper receiver as well, as the dremeled feedramps will not match up to any M4 or standard rifle barrel extension that is actually in "Spec". I have seen some of the dremeled feedramp jobs they did on factory guns that ranged from symmetric and cleanly done to ones that looked like they were done by a 2 year old chimp with a chisel & hammer. One factory RRA AR that a co-worker purchased had such mangled feedramps on it that I had to go in with a file to smooth them out in-order for it to function reliably through a full magazine. Again, there is NO standard with the work they do in this area. It makes NO sense why they do it.
Non-staked castle nuts. Most of the non-staked RRA buffer castle nut/buffer tube assemblies I have worked on needed to be relpaced due to galling. The threads of the buffer tubes are so mangled by the time I get the high-temp thread adhesive to break on them that the tubes usually need to be junked. Dont use loc-tite on buffer tubes folks!
Over gassed. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having a midlength gas system if you ask me. All of the 25 RRA's that my PD purchased have gasports the size of the grand canyon. The recoil is noticeably sharper than any midlength or carbine gas system I have owned/shot from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or LMT. Comparatively the RRA's shoot like shit.
The Vortex flashhiders on a few of the 16" middy AR's my PD purchase were not removeable. Why? I have no idea. They were not pinned. I used heat, Kroil, and upwards of 70 ft/lbs of torque and they would not budge. I gave up in fear of shearing the barrel extention index pin or damaging the receiver.
I would never recommend anyone purchase a RRA factory built AR for any reason. I have no issue building someone a complete rifle from a stripped RRA lower using quality Milspec parts if their employer specifies RRA as a manufacturer in their department policy, but other than that...hell no.
ETA: Examples of .458 socom chambered AR's are irrelevant to this discussion as far as I am concerned.
Ok.
RRA has different options you can specify. 5.56 NATO or .223 or Wylde camber. Chrome-lined or not. I don't get this "their chambers are all jacked" argument. Yeah, if you order it that way, or you're to ignorant to know the difference at the gun shop.
You don't "get it" because you don't have enough experience with them, I think.
Their 5.56 chambers, in my limited experience, and in the related experience of professional armorer type folks I've heard from, are tighter than spec. This can lead to overpressure and malfunctions.
My personal experience and observations of RRA AR's.....
I have personally seen dozens, and likely over 100 factory RRA AR's come through classes I have attended over the past 6-7 years.
Over gassed. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of having a midlength gas system if you ask me. All of the 25 RRA's that my PD purchased have gasports the size of the grand canyon. The recoil is noticeably sharper than any midlength or carbine gas system I have owned/shot from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or LMT. Comparatively the RRA's shoot like shit...
Did they "shoot like shit" because they were over gassed, or some other reason?
polymorpheous
01-29-12, 11:05
My personal experience and observations of RRA AR's.....
Excellent post.
Did they "shoot like shit" because they were over gassed, or some other reason?
I was referencing the sharper than normal recoil impulse of the RRA middy compared to a correctly sized M4/carbine length gasport or any of the other midlength gas systems I have owned/shot from manufacturers such as BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske, and LaRue.
I do believe the sharper than normal recoil impulse is caused by the oversized gas port.
I had a RRA mid length with heavy barrel, it ran like a champ. I attempted replaced it with "top tier" maker because I wanted a long free floated rail and no front sight post so I could reach out over the top of the rail.
I have a couple of nice ARs now but I'll tell you it was a LONG road to get here and lots of $$$$$. I sent an "top tier" match barreled upper back to the maker, to their credit they gave me a full refund. It would not go under 3" at 100 yards while my chrome lined RRA did about 1.25" all day every day.
I've had another unit I just got that had problems with the gas block.
My RRA ran no issue save ammo for 6K + rds.
Based upon my experience you're rolling the dice either way you go. If the castle nut isn't staked, stake it. If the gas key is not staked, stake it. By a spare bolt for 50 bucks if you think it will self destruct after 5K or what ever rds.
Disclaimer/Note: I'm not an armor nor do I build ARs, I just like to shoot them. I want them to run, when they don't I investigate. If it runs I don't jack with it.
Suwannee Tim
01-29-12, 12:58
A large majority of internet "experts" ("internet" ya'll, not M4C) have little or no experience but are repeating what they have read and heard. I firmly believe the expertise is inversely correlated to the bluster with the occasional exception. Where you see bluster, you are generally seeing someone who does not know what they are talking about. Some of those claiming to have first hand knowledge are making it up. Then there are the folks who have no personal knowledge but know people who do. This stuff gets repeated and embellished so many times that it reads like RRA guns are plagued with chronic problems. The fact is they are not. I spend hundreds of hours on the range every year and I am looking at these guns, looking for problems. So far I have seen a S&W piston gun loose it's taper pin and the piston assembly fall off. I pounded the pins back in and put the guy back in business. I broke a hammer spring on an LMT, I had a spare on hand and fixed it. One guy put his gun together without an extractor. I didn't offer him my spare. Those are the AR failures I have seen in the last 500 hours on the range. I have seen at least half a dozen troubled Garands in that time and ARs are much, much more common. If RRA guns were so horrible I would have seen at least one problem RRA in that time don't you think? The vast majority of ARs I have seen in the last couple of years work. They are correctly manufactured, correctly assembled and they work. Knights and Noveske to Oly and everything in between and they worked.
Any information on when RRA will be offering this 7.62X39?
There seems to be alot of RRA hate here. lol
It goes site by site what Manf. they like.
RRA is a good AR maker.
I have no favored manufacturer. My first upper was an RRA middy with a few problems, of which I have pictures here on M4C.
This rifle almost interests me. The mag release is a deal beaker though.
-B
There seems to be alot of RRA hate here. lol
It goes site by site what Manf. they like.
RRA is a good AR maker.
You just change my mind and wiped clear any recollection of my personal experience with RRA AR's with your fact based, knowledgeable and insightful post.:rolleyes:
Grant,
Unless KAC is doing something new, they don't stake that.
Interesting. I have seen some that were. Something might have changed since I last received guns from them.
C4
Ok.
RRA has different options you can specify. 5.56 NATO or .223 or Wylde camber. Chrome-lined or not. I don't get this "their chambers are all jacked" argument. Yeah, if you order it that way, or you're to ignorant to know the difference at the gun shop.
I have a RRA Elite Comp midlength with an A1 fixed stock. No overgas issues, no 2-stage trigger issues, and I pitched the carrier for a BCM, so no issues there either. My only complaint is the weight of the free float rail.
After 2+ years and around 1500 rounds, ive had no problems. (fast-fire, on the ground, dropped, only cleaned once at about 600 rounds) Would I buy another one? No, because of better options for a more competitive price. NOT because the RRA has let me down. Once I put a lighter rail on this thing, it'll be a keeper. P. S. I run an EOTech on it too. No issues there either. Suck it trebek
Typically, RRA chambers (which are marked 5.56) aren't.
How do you know your gun isn't over gassed. What was the measurement of the gas port?
C4
Grant,
They don't Stake Castle Nuts.... If they do they missed mine twice because I sent the rifle back for warranty work a month after I bought it and it came back without a staked castle nut. Like I said I don't view that particular item as something to bash any gun maker about unless it's falling off or fastened with Loctite.
It depends. Companies that DON'T stake castle nuts, but use loctite instead because it takes no skill or time to squirt "glue" onto the threads is crap.
Companies that don't stake castle nuts because they expect the end user to change out of the receiver plate OR have come up with a better way to secure their castle nuts, I have no issue with.
C4
Did they "shoot like shit" because they were over gassed, or some other reason?
When an AR is over gassed, you get the following:
1. More felt recoil.
2. More carbon in and on your receiver and BCG.
3. More stress on key components.
C4
There seems to be alot of RRA hate here. lol
It goes site by site what Manf. they like.
RRA is a good AR maker.
Hello. Interesting concept. So how do the owners of a forum get THOUSANDS of people (that they do not know) to dislike a particular manufacturer????
Can you tell me what makes RRA a "good" AR maker?
Just curious.
Thanks,
C4
DeltaSierra
01-29-12, 15:17
Just curious.
Thanks,
C4
That makes two of us....
My personal experience with my ex-rifle (circa 2006 RRA 16'' mid-length upper).
I had two main gripes from personal observation. It was way overgassed. Recoil was sharp and harsh as you could feel the carrier group bottoming out hard. An H3 buffer made feel like it ran normal with 223 ammo. It wouldn't be right with full power 5.56, and if I kept it the gas port would have gotten even bigger over time. Secondly, the staking on the gas key was very light and didn't look very functional.
Then add in the materials used and retarded options I chose when ordering it (HBAR, YHM screw together flip gas block sight), I made the decision to switch rifles. Despite being a HBAR, it was slightly less accurate than my SR-15.
Based on my experience and what others here have shown me, RRA is NOT a good rifle maker.
Time and time again, a thread continues to be worth its weight in gold.
"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
DeltaSierra
01-29-12, 16:08
Time and time again, a thread continues to be worth its weight in gold.
"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376
I already posted a link to that thread in post number 12 of this thread, and no one seemed to care...;)
Apparently facts have to take the back seat these days....
Would new springs not solve your walking pin issue?
You have a "J" spring (IIRC that's what it's called) that sits in the hammer and is supposed to keep the pins from slipping horizontally. I'm not sure how you can replace the J-spring, aside from obtaining a new hammer.
When an AR is over gassed, you get the following:
1. More felt recoil.
2. More carbon in and on your receiver and BCG.
3. More stress on key components.
C4
Thanks for your response, but I do understand this. His comment was ambiguous "shot like shit." Is this because of accuracy, recoil, trigger pull... what is "shot like shit?" If it is more felt recoil due to the rifle/carbine being over gassed then say so. That way a person can make an informed decision for themselves based on facts.
Also from an over gassed gun you can gain reliability with less expensive civilian ammo that does not meet Nato spec for pressure and velocity. I shoot a lot of this ammo in classes and during practice.
Of the disadvantages of an over gassed gun "more stress on key components" is of most concern to me. Carbon is not a big deal, just add more lube. (Especially on an over gassed gun. It will just force the bolt carrier through the carbon :sarcastic:) The additional felt recoil has not been an issue for me either. Again, people should just make an informed decision.
Do you own an RRA?
Inferior bolt steel - Its not Carpenter 158
Inferior barrel steel - Usually 4140 and not 4150 CMV
Lack of staking on gas keys and castle nuts
1:9 twist rate barrels
Overgassed gas systems
Lacking proper 5.56mm chambers
I'm not going to go into A.) Proof that these are correct or B.) Why they're important. Those can all be easily found with a Google search and lets be real. I know your RRA has "a thousand rounds through it with no issues" so you're not going to care anyway.
Nope! Don't have one or have any experience with one. Didn't say whether or not they are good or bad. I only said that I see some regurgitation going on.
Calm down guys.
Thanks for your response, but I do understand this. His comment was ambiguous "shot like shit." Is this because of accuracy, recoil, trigger pull... what is "shot like shit?" If it is more felt recoil due to the rifle/carbine being over gassed then say so. That way a person can make an informed decision for themselves based on facts.
My original post stated: "The recoil is noticeably sharper than any midlength or carbine gas system I have owned/shot from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or LMT. Comparatively the RRA's shoot like shit."
Not really "ambiguous", but I hope this clears things up for you.
Thanks for your response, but I do understand this. His comment was ambiguous "shot like shit." Is this because of accuracy, recoil, trigger pull... what is "shot like shit?" If it is more felt recoil due to the rifle/carbine being over gassed then say so. That way a person can make an informed decision for themselves based on facts.
Also from an over gassed gun you can gain reliability with less expensive civilian ammo that does not meet Nato spec for pressure and velocity. I shoot a lot of this ammo in classes and during practice.
Of the disadvantages of an over gassed gun "more stress on key components" is of most concern to me. Carbon is not a big deal, just add more lube. (Especially on an over gassed gun. It will just force the bolt carrier through the carbine :sarcastic:) The additional felt recoil has not been an issue for me either. Again, people should just make an informed decision.
There is nothing wrong with shooting lower grade ammo, but generally speaking, that ammo is too hot as well.
Yes, most people can manage the extra recoil, but it is not conducive to shooting your best or seeing what your AR can really do.
C4
My original post stated: "The recoil is noticeably sharper than any midlength or carbine gas system I have owned/shot from Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense or LMT. Comparatively the RRA's shoot like shit."
Not really "ambiguous", but I hope this clears things up for you.
Thanks, so your issue was the noticeably sharper recoil. (No response needed unless I still misunderstand your intent.) Sorry, I took your post as two separate comments. 1. The recoil is noticeably sharper than... 2. Comparatively the RRA's shot like shit. Again, thanks for the clarification.
I firmly believe the expertise is inversely correlated to the bluster with the occasional exception.
I'm not "expert", but I count myself among your "exceptions".
I have a white-hot hatred of manufacturers who fail to stake gas keys, based on watching the majority of our guns going down, during firefights with bad guys. I consulted our armorer, and according to his records, 100 out of our 150 guns stopped working due to loose gas keys.
Evidently the Department of State thought buying Bushmaster would be a good idea for their Poppy Eradication Force in Afghanistan.
So when I see a badly or unstaked gas key on an AR, or hear someone poo poo the importance of gas key staking or talk about how it must be b.s. because their carbine "runs perfect" I get bent out of shape.
SpaceWrangler
01-29-12, 22:12
I believe their term is "flawless".
:rolleyes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v638/Stretch67/cheeky-smiley-025.gif
Typically, RRA chambers (which are marked 5.56) aren't.
How do you know your gun isn't over gassed. What was the measurement of the gas port?
C4
Mine has fed Rem UMC, Win White Box M855, Prvi M855, LC M193, TAP 55gr, and Wolf 62gr. Ate it all, no issues.
Ive never measured the gas port hole, so honestly I can't say definitively whether it's properly or over gassed. But, the recoil is similar to a friends colt sporter
I run a fixed stock, a1 tube. That might be what is mitigating any added recoil impulse. I've read that the rifle buffers are much more forgiving than carbine.
...
Yes, most people can manage a the extra recoil, but it is not conducive to shooting your best or seeing what your AR can really do.
C4
To that end, shooting my best or seeing what my AR can really do, wouldn't I want a low mass bolt carrier, adjustable gas block and compensator? I am not into any of that and I don't believe you are into that either. I do have a compensator on my 3 gun rifle, but someone gave the comp to me, as I wouldn't have bought it.
I have my ARs primarily for Duty/SD, as I believe you do also and I use competition, classes and weekly practice in order to help me towards that end. I do not mind a gun that is slightly over gassed, regardless of whether it is a rifle, mid or carbine length gas system. I accept the fact that it is imparting more stress on key components. (well put by the way.) I accept that these guns have a finite service life/number of rounds they can fire before needing repair or replacement.
I own an original AR-180 and recently took it out to shoot for the first time in a long time. If you want something that is over gassed... and it still functions fine after many thousands of rounds. Its increased felt recoil could also be due in part to the narrow butt stock. It recoiled much harder than any AR-15, M-16 or derivative I have shot regardless of DI or piston. It really surprised me.
I do agree with most here that if you are only talking $100 difference then buy the gun with the more desirable features, unless you are able to correct the deficiencies by yourself for free or for much less than the $100. If it as a few hundred dollars difference then I would buy the "less desirable" and upgrade it. Again, staking a gas key and/or castle nut is so easy I do not consider it an issue at all. If all the $100 buys me is a staked gas key and castle nut I would prefer to save my money and do it myself. A 4140 barrel in a semi auto gun really doesn't matter to me.
Those are merely my opinions. I know they go against many individuals and the collective opinions here.
Sorry to the OP for the slight hi-jack.
Driving home tonight on my motorcycle I got to thinking about this thread.
My thoughts are what I want in a rifle and what Mr. XYZ wants in a rifle might be different. What I do not want is a company trying to figure out how to short cut every step of the way they can in terms of cheaper materials, cutbacks on inspection and exactness of fitting, and anything else they can save a few pennies per unit of production on.
So what do I want? I want a rifle that is made of the best materials, highest levels of QC, and has stood the test of time. Should that be what you are looking for then obviously companies like Noveske, Colt, DD, LMT, etc have good offerings. Don't care? I sure as hell don't care what you buy or choose to waste your money on.
So there in lies the problem. Mr. XYZ might just want the 'next best thing' or 'good enough'. And that's fine and he can have at it as I am not going to stand in his way but if they ask I will offer my advice. Take it or leave it just like all the others on this forum who know quality rifles.
Driving home tonight on my motorcycle I got to thinking about this thread.
My thoughts are what I want in a rifle and what Mr. XYZ wants in a rifle might be different. What I do not want is a company trying to figure out how to short cut every step of the way they can in terms of cheaper materials, cutbacks on inspection and exactness of fitting, and anything else they can save a few pennies per unit of production on.
I'd respectfully disagree, I remember reading that each 2-stage trigger was hand fitted and that RRA was pretty meticulous with their process.
Take a look at this slide show from Field & Stream:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2009/07/inside-look-rock-river-arms-ar-factory
It shows component testing, test firing, and hand fitting the triggers. I know for a fact that my LAR-8 was test fired as it arrived 'new' with some light carbon and bolt-face brass marks. In other words, I'm not seeing a company that's trying to cut corners as much as possible.
=========================
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do ask that opinions are informed opinions. Like I said, 2 of my RRAs had serious trigger pin walk issues, which doesn't speak well about the company. I just don't think RRA is an absolute shit-bag company that it's being made out to be.
..
...
Take a look at this slide show from Field & Stream:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2009/07/inside-look-rock-river-arms-ar-factory
It shows component testing, test firing, and hand fitting the triggers. ...
...
====================================
I think having to hand fit is a sign of loose tolerances and poor QC. With modern manufacturing methods, the parts should just drop-in and work fine with out having to "fit" them.
I have installed two Geissele SSA's and they required zero handfitting and have worked perfect for 5k rounds.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I'd respectfully disagree, I remember reading that each 2-stage trigger was hand fitted and that RRA was pretty meticulous with their process.
Take a look at this slide show from Field & Stream:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2009/07/inside-look-rock-river-arms-ar-factory
It shows component testing, test firing, and hand fitting the triggers. I know for a fact that my LAR-8 was test fired as it arrived 'new' with some light carbon and bolt-face brass marks. In other words, I'm not seeing a company that's trying to cut corners as much as possible.
=========================
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do ask that opinions are informed opinions. Like I said, 2 of my RRAs had serious trigger pin walk issues, which doesn't speak well about the company. I just don't think RRA is an absolute shit-bag company that it's being made out to be.
I thought rra's triggers were notorious for failure and IIRC there was an entire thread dedicated to the issue on TOS. I personally didnt have an issue with my trigger on my rra but I would never own one again, especially when a colt or bcm can be had for less money.
No pics of the chimps they have cutting "extended feedramps" into their receivers & barrel extensions with Dremel tools???
HackerF15E
01-30-12, 08:01
I have a white-hot hatred of manufacturers who fail to stake gas keys, based on watching the majority of our guns going down, during firefights with bad guys. I consulted our armorer, and according to his records, 100 out of our 150 guns stopped working due to loose gas keys.
Evidently the Department of State thought buying Bushmaster would be a good idea for their Poppy Eradication Force in Afghanistan.
State Department people are getting in "firefights with bad guys" in Helmand?
Threads like this are ALWAYS Started because someone feels the need to justify what they purchased. If you own a RRA and love it great..... Please just don't start a thread that you know will get other opinions for the sole reason to start a shit storm and get all butt hurt when someone calls your baby ugly.
Mine has fed Rem UMC, Win White Box M855, Prvi M855, LC M193, TAP 55gr, and Wolf 62gr. Ate it all, no issues.
Ive never measured the gas port hole, so honestly I can't say definitively whether it's properly or over gassed. But, the recoil is similar to a friends colt sporter
I run a fixed stock, a1 tube. That might be what is mitigating any added recoil impulse. I've read that the rifle buffers are much more forgiving than carbine.
If your RRA has a carbine gas system, then it is over gassed (trust me). Yes, your stock option is helping with the extra recoil.
C4
To that end, shooting my best or seeing what my AR can really do, wouldn't I want a low mass bolt carrier, adjustable gas block and compensator? I am not into any of that and I don't believe you are into that either. I do have a compensator on my 3 gun rifle, but someone gave the comp to me, as I wouldn't have bought it.
Depends on what we are talking about. If you are trying to compete at the top level in the gun game world, then yes.
A 4140 barrel in a semi auto gun really doesn't matter to me.
A 4140 barrel is of course not the end of the world. There can also be another issue that goes along with this type of steel. Out of spec chambers. For whatever reason, every gun that needed to be reamed to 5.56 was a barrel made out 4140. Dean Caputo also talks about this in his armorer classes. So this is why I would stay away from any AR with a 4140 barrel.
C4
I'd respectfully disagree, I remember reading that each 2-stage trigger was hand fitted and that RRA was pretty meticulous with their process.
Take a look at this slide show from Field & Stream:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/photos/gallery/hunting/2009/07/inside-look-rock-river-arms-ar-factory
It shows component testing, test firing, and hand fitting the triggers. I know for a fact that my LAR-8 was test fired as it arrived 'new' with some light carbon and bolt-face brass marks. In other words, I'm not seeing a company that's trying to cut corners as much as possible.
=========================
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I do ask that opinions are informed opinions. Like I said, 2 of my RRAs had serious trigger pin walk issues, which doesn't speak well about the company. I just don't think RRA is an absolute shit-bag company that it's being made out to be.
Do you know which 2 stage trigger on the market has failed the most (meaning shot out the first stage and become a single stage trigger)???
C4
Threads like this are ALWAYS Started because someone feels the need to justify what they purchased. If you own a RRA and love it great..... Please just don't start a thread that you know will get other opinions for the sole reason to start a shit storm and get all butt hurt when someone calls your baby ugly.
Agree. I could care less if you own a RRA. Go out and shoot it! Take that extra money you saved and go to a carbine school with it!
With that said, please do not try and educate us on the "awesomeness"of the gun.
C4
Agree. I could care less if you own a RRA. Go out and shoot it! Take that extra money you saved and go to a carbine school with it!
With that said, please do not try and educate us on the "awesomeness"of the gun.
C4
This^^ My first AR was a RRA that has run great through multiple classes with over 5,000 rounds, but I would never recommend one to anyone or say they are awesome when there are so many better manufacturers out there.
Can you get a decent RRA that will shoot well? Probably. I did I guess. But you will be wasting money for a gun that has been proven sub par, when for the same money you could get something much better. If you like your RRA, great. But there just really isn’t any truth behind trying to convince yourself or anyone else that RRA is just as good as a Colt, BCM, DD, KAC, Noveske, or any of the other high quality manufacturers. It just simply isn’t true.
Do you know which 2 stage trigger on the market has failed the most (meaning shot out the first stage and become a single stage trigger)???
C4
not to mention started double firing or causing a run away gun..
My first AR was an RRA. I was seduced by a local Class III dealer. In my ignorance I fugured if the guy was into MGs and Supressors, he would not sell steer me wrong on an AR.
It would not seat loaded magazines with a closed bolt. Not PMAGs, down loaded USGI mags of all flavors and followers. You had to get a 30 round mag down to 10-12 rounds and S-L-A-M it home to get it to seat, sometimes. It went to a new home (with full discosure) to someone who was going to use it for target/hunting and was not concerned with the issue. I did a little more research and have been a happier camper since.
I guess it is a matter of perspective too. If your baseline is Hi Point/Taurus, RRA probably seems like a good gun maker.
A 4140 barrel is of course not the end of the world. There can also be another issue that goes along with this type of steel. Out of spec chambers. For whatever reason, every gun that needed to be reamed to 5.56 was a barrel made out 4140. Dean Caputo also talks about this in his armorer classes. So this is why I would stay away from any AR with a 4140 barrel. C4
This statement may be correct in your experience, but not mine. You can ask Ken Elmore about a Chandler P.D. Officers personally owned Colt AR. It had to go back to the factory because of the short chamber. Unfortunately, in order to correct the issue, Colt reamed right through the chrome lining and sent it back to the Officer. I could have done that for the Officer and saved him the down time, shipping and headache in getting someone to acknowledge the problem. It took so long to get Elmore and Colt to acknowledge the short chamber and correct it that the Officer did not want to deal with it anymore and just accepted that they cut through the chrome lining. I would have sent the barrel back to Colt again and asked for a replacement.
Not really picking on Colt as everyone makes mistakes. My only complaint was how long it took them to correct the issue and them cutting through the chrome lining.
Again, 4140 steel in a semi-auto AR barrel is not an issue to me. Short/incorrectly chambered barrels regardless of the type of steel they are made from or the manufacturer is always an issue. I have never run into a short chambered RRA, but I must admit my exposure to them is limited. I have run into several short chambered DPMS and SGW barrels. To me it is a minor issue, as long as it is not a chrome lined bore, as I have the reamers and ability to correct the problem. I admit it would be an issue to most end users.
The short chambered Colt has been referenced on this forum at least two other times, once by me and once by Mike240. Mike240 is the one that brought the gun to my attention and asked for my assistance in proving to Elmore the barrel was short chambered.
Suwannee Tim
01-30-12, 17:00
I'm not "expert", but I count myself among your "exceptions".....
I had you in mind 120, you and Iraqgunz. I maintain and firmly believe that the horror stories are vastly overstated through endless repetition. I have been screwed a dozen times by Ruger and I don't hate them near as bad as a lot of folks who have never owned a Bushie, Oly or RR hate Bushie, Oly and RR. Every time I get into one of these discussions I resolve to never do it again yet I continue...... And every time I wind up feeling like I had a damn good piss into a strong wind.
====================================
I think having to hand fit is a sign of loose tolerances and poor QC. With modern manufacturing methods, the parts should just drop-in and work fine with out having to "fit" them.
I have installed two Geissele SSA's and they required zero handfitting and have worked perfect for 5k rounds.
But maybe it's just me...
.
The triggers. To each other. I guess by this reasoning, Les Baers are "loose toleranced" and "poor QC'd" since they require hand fitting.
I find it ironic that KAC gets a pass for loc-titing their castle nuts, while people slam RRA for the same.
I thought rra's triggers were notorious for failure and IIRC there was an entire thread dedicated to the issue on TOS. I personally didnt have an issue with my trigger on my rra but I would never own one again, especially when a colt or bcm can be had for less money.
That may be true, but my post clearly rebuts the "corner cutting, lowest cost per unit" accusations aimed at RRA. If RRA really did use the lowest-cost strategy, they wouldn't hire people to hand fit, then test the triggers for a 4.5# break, then test fire a magazine through it.
Depends on what we are talking about. If you are trying to compete at the top level in the gun game world, then yes....
C4
You established the topic when you wrote "Yes, most people can manage a the extra recoil, (of an over gassed gun) but it is not conducive to shooting your best or seeing what your AR can really do."
If my goal was merely to shoot my best and see what my AR can really do then I would need a low mass bolt carrier, adjustable gas block and compensator.
My goal is duty and self defense. To that end, I do not mind, and actually prefer, a gun that is slightly over gassed. It is a personal preference and may not be for everyone. I accept the accelerated wear on key components. With that said, my over gassed guns have gone well over the 5,000 round replacement recommendation of the bolt without the bolt or any other parts failing, so I am not certain how much accelerated wear there really is.
I still have no opinion on RRA as I have not had enough exposure to them.
I do own one RRA barrel that has been abused by me and it has held up better than I ever expected. I use it in F/A "belt fed" matches (they changed the rules to allow F/A detachable mag guns). All rounds through that barrel, of late, have been fired on f/a, sometimes with hundreds of rounds being fired as fast as you can change mags. At this point it only has a little over 1000 f/a rnds through it. I recently changed optics and sighted it in at 100 yds. The gun shot right at 1 moa, just as it had when I started using it for the match. I am curious how many rounds I can put through it before noticing a deterioration in accuracy. You would think, I did, that 6 mags, 180 rnds,(I still use those dreaded HK mags for this game) in back to back mag dumps would be hard on that poor 4140 barrel. I also expected the mid-length gas tube to give out by now, but it hasn't, yet. The match is fun and kind of a science experiment to me. I want to see what fails on the gun first and at what approximate round count. Also, I have not cleaned the upper in that 1000 f/a rnds.
I guess it's a good thing that we all can't come play with the cool kids. If half of these bashes were true then it sounds like there would be a lot of claimed "crappy" gun manufacturers out there that would go out of business. Then we'd have no choice but to buy only the "worthy" gun manufacturers' rifles and the whole cool kid club would be diluted by the misinformed and unknowing. On top of it all, God forbid, no one here would have anybody left to beat up on. What a world....
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/thhorse1.gif
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/thhorse1.gif
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/thhorse1.gif
The triggers. To each other. I guess by this reasoning, Les Baers are "loose toleranced" and "poor QC'd" since they require hand fitting.
I find it ironic that KAC gets a pass for loc-titing their castle nuts, while people slam RRA for the same.
You either don't read well or you just make shit up.:rolleyes:
Knights Armament does NOT use Loc-tite on Castle Nuts....They don't Stake them. There is a HUGE Difference.
I guess it's a good thing that we all can't come play with the cool kids. If half of these bashes were true then it sounds like there would be a lot of claimed "crappy" gun manufacturers out there that would go out of business. Then we'd have no choice but to buy only the "worthy" gun manufacturers' rifles and the whole cool kid club would be diluted by the misinformed and unknowing. On top of it all, God forbid, no one here would have anybody left to beat up on. What a world....
Not true. Those that read the 7-11 gun rags and watch guns & ammo TV will still buy RRA and DPMS substandard AR's while folks who actually have experience and do their research will make informed fact based decisions.
That may be true, but my post clearly rebuts the "corner cutting, lowest cost per unit" accusations aimed at RRA. If RRA really did use the lowest-cost strategy, they wouldn't hire people to hand fit, then test the triggers for a 4.5# break, then test fire a magazine through it.
Rebuts is probably the word for it as whatever RRA is doing obviously is working for them and you and everyone else who owns one.
Hell I own an RRA 9mm SBR... it still sucks compared to my other rifles. :D
My wife likes her RRA just fine, though it does have all DPMS innards.
Out shoots her Stag :D
Not true. Those that read the 7-11 gun rags and watch guns & ammo TV will still buy RRA and DPMS substandard AR's while folks who actually have experience and do their research will make informed fact based decisions.
QFT. M4carbine forums are the 1 percenters.. the other 99% will be fat dumb and happy with their RRA and bushys
RRA's quality disscusion aside, I would like to talk about what the OP stated in his post.
Out of the bottom tier AR makers how bad is RRA? I ask this because I have always wanted a Knight Armament SR-47., and I just saw where RRA is bringing out their version of it. It will be called the LAR-47 and it uses AK magazines.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/01/foghorn/new-from-rock-river-arms-lar-47-ar-15-in-7-62x39-that-takes-ak-mags/
Not trying to start a fight about the quality of RRA, just wondering if this would be a good starting point for a good 7.62x39mm AR15 that uses a correct magazine for feeding this round.
I have wanted a SR-47 for years now too but have never felt like the alternatives were ever worth it since you had to buy special 7.62x39 mags that never seemed to work... ever. My hopes where renewed with the SIG 556R but we know how the one worked out :suicide:.
If RRA would sell just the LAR-47 upper and lower receivers (I know, burn me on the stake) and throw in all Colt 7.62x39 parts... I think I would collapse from the overload of joy and happiness :p, regardless of price.
This dream all depends too on the upper and lower either being made of steel or have steel insert conntact points or else steel surplus mags are going to tear that thing up. Since they don't take the time for proper QC I have very little faith they even thought about the issue :cray:.
My wife likes her RRA just fine, though it does have all DPMS innards. Out shoots her Stag :D
What does "out shoot" mean?
. . . . though it does have all DPMS innards.
Wait, your wife's rifle does? Or are you trying to claim that all RRAs have dpms parts?
thopkins22
01-31-12, 15:43
State Department people are getting in "firefights with bad guys" in Helmand?
A simple google search will tell you that yes, they are.
The triggers. To each other. I guess by this reasoning, Les Baers are "loose toleranced" and "poor QC'd" since they require hand fitting.
I find it ironic that KAC gets a pass for loc-titing their castle nuts, while people slam RRA for the same.
I don't know that KAC loctites their castle nuts and I am not sure that I would give them a pass (FYI).
C4
This statement may be correct in your experience, but not mine. You can ask Ken Elmore about a Chandler P.D. Officers personally owned Colt AR. It had to go back to the factory because of the short chamber. Unfortunately, in order to correct the issue, Colt reamed right through the chrome lining and sent it back to the Officer. I could have done that for the Officer and saved him the down time, shipping and headache in getting someone to acknowledge the problem. It took so long to get Elmore and Colt to acknowledge the short chamber and correct it that the Officer did not want to deal with it anymore and just accepted that they cut through the chrome lining. I would have sent the barrel back to Colt again and asked for a replacement.
Not really picking on Colt as everyone makes mistakes. My only complaint was how long it took them to correct the issue and them cutting through the chrome lining.
Again, 4140 steel in a semi-auto AR barrel is not an issue to me. Short/incorrectly chambered barrels regardless of the type of steel they are made from or the manufacturer is always an issue. I have never run into a short chambered RRA, but I must admit my exposure to them is limited. I have run into several short chambered DPMS and SGW barrels. To me it is a minor issue, as long as it is not a chrome lined bore, as I have the reamers and ability to correct the problem. I admit it would be an issue to most end users.
The short chambered Colt has been referenced on this forum at least two other times, once by me and once by Mike240. Mike240 is the one that brought the gun to my attention and asked for my assistance in proving to Elmore the barrel was short chambered.
That could be on the Colt (as only GOD is perfect). It has been our experience that barrels made of 4140 steel have a higher probability of having out of spec chamber than a CMV barrel would.
C4
You established the topic when you wrote "Yes, most people can manage a the extra recoil, (of an over gassed gun) but it is not conducive to shooting your best or seeing what your AR can really do."
If my goal was merely to shoot my best and see what my AR can really do then I would need a low mass bolt carrier, adjustable gas block and compensator.
When defining "shooting best," you must also establish the environment. So using a gun setup for "games" as your self defense weapon is a horrible idea and not the intention of my comments.
My goal is duty and self defense. To that end, I do not mind, and actually prefer, a gun that is slightly over gassed. It is a personal preference and may not be for everyone. I accept the accelerated wear on key components. With that said, my over gassed guns have gone well over the 5,000 round replacement recommendation of the bolt without the bolt or any other parts failing, so I am not certain how much accelerated wear there really is.
If you have a 16" AR with a carbine gas system and a GP size of .063, your gun is already over gassed (slightly). Because of the added dwell time over a 14.5" barrel, the GP size should be .061.
So since your gun is already over gassed, any larger GP size over .063 is really less than ideal for shooting a defensive gun optimally.
C4
I guess it's a good thing that we all can't come play with the cool kids. If half of these bashes were true then it sounds like there would be a lot of claimed "crappy" gun manufacturers out there that would go out of business. Then we'd have no choice but to buy only the "worthy" gun manufacturers' rifles and the whole cool kid club would be diluted by the misinformed and unknowing. On top of it all, God forbid, no one here would have anybody left to beat up on. What a world....
People often times confuse "bashing" with telling the truth.
Can you tell me why RRA makes a good AR?
C4
...So since your gone is already over gassed, any larger GP size over .063 is really less than ideal for shooting a defensive gun optimally.
C4
I know very knowledgeable people, both end users and manufacturers, that disagree. I have personally had .063 gas ports fail to cycle some of the weaker ammo that I referred to earlier. I have admitted this is a personal preference and I know it goes against your experience and many others on this board. What I do disagree with are those that say a gun with a gas port over .061, .063 or whatever, within reason, will not function. I have found that gas ports up to .07 have functioned fine, even with 5.56 nato spec ammo. I do admit there is more felt recoil and larger gas ports place additional wear on some parts, but the amount of wear is questionable.
I tested a 10.5 inch barrel with a .094 gas port. The barrel was given to me new because of the gas port size. I run an H2 buffer in the gun. I shot it 1,500 rnds during a class with no malfunctions. The gun did have a bore snake run down the barrel once, because the instructors did it to everyone's gun, and I used a judicious amount of lube. That gun is still being used by students in classes I teach with no issues. I shoot the gun frequently with a variety of ammo without issue.
In the class that I used that gun in, all of the other guns were Colts. It was a local agency's class and that is what they allow for duty. I was the only outsider in the class. Several of the Colts malfunctioned. Admittedly all of the malfunctions, except maybe one, was due to lack of lube.
In the late 90's early 00's I checked a new 16 inch Colt and it had a .10 gas port. I was told that was the standard port size from Colt at that time.
Admittedly, I work on few Colt's anymore, not because they don't malfunction, but in my agency the majority of Colt's are owned by the agency and I am not the official Armorer anymore. I do work on individually owned guns withing my agency and assist some other local agencies and shops. My agency is very liberal regarding firearms and allows officers to use ARs built from parts and that is what most choose to do. We see a lot of different parts.
While in the Army I was a 45B. I taught Small Arms Repair at Aberdeen Play Ground Maryland, worked Depot Maintenance on Okinawa and Delta Support at Fort Benning. I have worked on my share of Mil Spec and non-Mil Spec guns. At the time I was discharged from the Army I was a 45B30. The Armorer/Gunsmith classes I have attended since are numerous. I recently attended a week long Precision Rifle Blueprinting Class at Trinidad Community College in Colorado. It was a great course taught by "Speedy" Gonzales of SG&Y. There was an AR-15 barreling class taught by one of the guys from White Oaks going on at the same time. I talked with him a lot about ARs, great guy.
I am rambling too much...
I know very knowledgeable people, both end users and manufacturers, that disagree. I have personally had .063 gas ports fail to cycle some of the weaker ammo that I referred to earlier. I have admitted this is a personal preference and I know it goes against your experience and many others on this board. What I do disagree with are those that say a gun with a gas port over .061, .063 or whatever, within reason, will not function. I have found that gas ports up to .07 have functioned fine, even with 5.56 nato spec ammo. I do admit there is more felt recoil and larger gas ports place additional wear on some parts, but the amount of wear is questionable.
Well since the TDP calls out .063 for a 14.5" barrel, this IS the standard. So anyone that thinks it is wrong (or not big enough) would be what is known as a village idiot.
Personally, if some crap ammo (that is under pressured) won't cycle a Mil-Spec AR, then I am fine with that.
Its just like putting the worst gas you can find in your Ferrari an not getting the listed 0-60 time that is listed (and being pissed about it).
C4
Suwannee Tim
01-31-12, 20:07
Threads like this are ALWAYS Started because someone feels the need to justify what they purchased.....
Half or more of these threads are started to bash the subject company. The OP here was thinking about buying a unique RR not trying to justify a purchase.
You either don't read well or you just make shit up.:rolleyes:
Knights Armament does NOT use Loc-tite on Castle Nuts....They don't Stake them. There is a HUGE Difference.
I probably wasn't reading what was going on in this thread, but I do recommend you do a quick fact-check:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=50350
Kevin-B points out that SR-16s get loc-tited.
And if one company uses, loc tite, and another simply uses torque, wouldn't it follow that the torque only company is "cutting corners?"
=================================
I don't really care if people want to shit all over RRAs. It's always amusing to see how acrimonious these brand-name debates get.
To the OP: RRA took the FAL-Magazine/308AR design from Bushy and made it work when Bushy couldn't. I'd imagine that RRA would similarly achieve success in incorporating the AK-magazine/AR15 design.
Is it going to be combat grade? Probably not. You might even experience trigger pin walk. Regardless, it's most likely not going to be an absolute pile of garbage that malfunctions at every turn.
ETA: Obligatory :rolleyes: smiley since I'm debating on the internet.
I probably wasn't reading what was going on in this thread, but I do recommend you do a quick fact-check:
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=50350
Kevin-B points out that SR-16s get loc-tited.
And if one company uses, loc tite, and another simply uses torque, wouldn't it follow that the torque only company is "cutting corners?"
Actually if you read, he states that it should be torque (not loctite). So if it is loctited on, that was most like an error.
Either way, not staking or using loctite is a no go for me (no matter who does it). With that said, I would take that over a company that uses cheap parts through out the guns, over gassed an and out of spec chambers (possibly).
C4
I think Sig is coming out with a 7.62 AR using AK47 magazines. :secret:
RRA generally makes decent enough rifles. I think they tend to be too pricey for what they are, you can definitely get better rifles for the prices they charge. (obviously you are looking for something unique)
It won't be as accurate as a top tier manufacturer, or probably as reliable, but it probably won't be the worst decision you've ever made. Just be sure you get a good deal.... Make it actually worth it.
If you only go to the range and play....you'd never know the dif between a " top tier" gun and one that was not.....I fall into that category for the most part....... That said, I trust a RRA .458 SOCOM enough to carry for a bear "persuader" on Kodiak Island, 100% reliable and hard hitting ( I've pushed it hard and tried to make it fail) so........I also have a BCM M4 and a LMT 308 MWS and RRA will still get a thumbs up from me...
I've had no problems with the one I had. I don't consider it top tier, but it works. I've used their LPKs on lot of my builds without any issues. I did have one bolt catch break on a 9mm AR, but it was 100% my fault.. Sent in a email to RRA, and their tech support called me within a few hours. I was shocked. After talking with them we determine my carrier was traveling too far back and slaming on the bolt catch. They sent me a new replacement one even though it was my fault. Remarkable..
As for their trigger, they are so so. I get rid of them to buy Geissele triggers.
:):p;):eek::shout::secret:
Well since the TDP calls out .063 for a 14.5" barrel, this IS the standard. So anyone that thinks it is wrong (or not big enough) would be what is known as a village idiot.
Personally, if some crap ammo (that is under pressured) won't cycle a Mil-Spec AR, then I am fine with that.
Its just like putting the worst gas you can find in your Ferrari an not getting the listed 0-60 time that is listed (and being pissed about it).
C4
The TDP is definitely not wrong for a gun firing nato spec ammo. It is probably fine with most saami spec ammunition.
I do not drive cars that require AvGas or 108 octane, my son does but that is on a race track.
I do drive cars that will run on AvGas or 108 octane as well as 87 octane pump gas.
My rifles will work fine with nato spec ammo as well as ammo that many refer to as under powered ammo.
I personally like a gas port around .068 to .072. I have played with larger gas ports but as I said that is more of a "science experiment" to me and I am not serious about those guns.
Since I do not have the logistical support of our military supplying me with ammunition, and we have had ammo shortages in my lifetime, I prefer my guns to work with the widest variety of ammo, even the lesser expensive. If that makes me a village idiot in your eyes then so be it.
ETA: On a side note my son took me for a ride in a Nissan GTR, purported to by the fastest production car from 0-60 (2.9 seconds) and it ran fine on pump gas.
there so many ar assemblers ,gets parts from the lowest bids for the bottom line for the greatest mark up and hype !what does rra is what ? assembler of parts ! ok its better to say, sum of the total of parts = what like del-ton is no much better ...which i got burned over as a gift damn mossburg barrel ,they use ....oh yes its[barrel ] no longer in that ar now rest has been up-dated with real parts!!!
polymorpheous
02-01-12, 01:15
there so many ar assemblers ,gets parts from the lowest bids for the bottom line for the greatest mark up and hype !what does rra is what ? assembler of parts ! ok its better to say, sum of the total of parts = what like del-ton is no much better ...which i got burned over as a gift damn mossburg barrel ,they use ....oh yes its[barrel ] no longer in that ar now rest has been up-dated with real parts!!!
Huh?:confused:
Here are my experiences with RRA......
The 2 stage triggers suck....... PERIOD! If you don't believe me, I will send you one with less than 1000 rounds through it. There is no first stage.
Over gassed is an UNDERSTATEMENT. If you pay close attention to this next statement and use a little common sense, you will see the light.
If a company like BCM sells a rifle, there will be many more people that know about the differences in quality ammunition than people that purchase a RRA rifle. By using a Wylde chamber, larger gas port and standard buffer, RRA is stopping all of the customer service calls that consist of.... "This gun is broke, it won't shoot the Herter's ammo I bought for $3.99 a box" or "This gun is broke, the bolt isn't locking back on the last round with this WPA ammo I bought for $4.29 a box".
The last RRA I fired (fixed) was so over gassed that I would clench my teeth before I fired it.
Yes, the barrels are not even close to spec, the bolts are not either. The Front sight posts are incorrect (not F) and I have never seen a staked castle nut on a RRA rifle.
I fired 7000 rounds of 5.56 in 2011. I have had days that my DD CHF barrel was an odd yellow color. There is no way I would feel comfortable doing this with an out of spec rifle. 7000 rounds with an over gassed rifle would be so annoying, shooting would no longer be any fun.
I have the 16" HBAR carbine model. I bought it for my girlfriend as her first rifle.
We have shot about 1000 rounds through it with zero malfunctions. Not bad for a cheap POS...
The TDP is definitely not wrong for a gun firing nato spec ammo. It is probably fine with most saami spec ammunition.
They are (as that is mostly what I shoot).
C4
there so many ar assemblers ,gets parts from the lowest bids for the bottom line for the greatest mark up and hype !what does rra is what ? assembler of parts ! ok its better to say, sum of the total of parts = what like del-ton is no much better ...which i got burned over as a gift damn mossburg barrel ,they use ....oh yes its[barrel ] no longer in that ar now rest has been up-dated with real parts!!!
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TgPctAEx4sk/TB5XM75dfiI/AAAAAAAAAFw/hByiB5rQpsQ/s1600/drunkposting.gif
-B
Animal_Mother556
02-01-12, 11:44
Can you imagine if there were hundreds of companies producing sub-par M1 Garands? Wrong materials, specs, etc... and calling them M1 Garands? What a friggin poop storm THAT would create.
I mention it because, to me, the M16 family of firearms means a lot to Americans (that are into that sort of thing). And I hate to see it bastardized to "make a buck". Build them the way they were MEANT to be built. Amen?
there so many ar assemblers ,gets parts from the lowest bids for the bottom line for the greatest mark up and hype !what does rra is what ? assembler of parts ! ok its better to say, sum of the total of parts = what like del-ton is no much better ...which i got burned over as a gift damn mossburg barrel ,they use ....oh yes its[barrel ] no longer in that ar now rest has been up-dated with real parts!!!
I try not to be a douche, and it's all in good fun... but ****!!!
That's the most incoherent post I've ever seen period!
polymorpheous
02-01-12, 16:27
I try not to be a douche, and it's all in good fun... but ****!!!
That's the most incoherent post I've ever seen period!
Sums up this thread quite nicely!
:sarcastic:
I try not to be a douche, and it's all in good fun... but ****!!!
That's the most incoherent post I've ever seen period!
Now that's funny. I don't care who you are, that's funny.
I've had a RRA carbine for about 2.5 years now. I've put over 5,000 rounds through it with only 1 magazine-related issue. The gun is great and I carry it on duty every day.
All that being said....if I did it over again (which I am going to this week), I would go with a higher quality rifle. My previous department required certain manufacturers so that's why I went with RRA. I spent about $1000 on the rifle. No chrome lined barrel, chamber, or BCG. Cheaply done feed ramps. 2 stage trigger which I'm not crazy about. And their "operator" stock on a commercial buffer tube which is a SOPMOD knockoff. Again, I can't knock it TOO much since it HAS been pretty much flawless. But there is a lot to be desired.
This week I am ordering a Spike's Tactical rifle with their enhanced lower parts kit and nickel-boron BCG. The rifle is full mil-spec with everything I could want. And the best part...it's CHEAPER than my RRA. Bottom line..yeah, RRA isn't bad BUT you can get more for LESS.
Bottom line..yeah, RRA isn't bad BUT you can get more for LESS.
Bingo
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 09:39
It depends. Companies that DON'T stake castle nuts, but use loctite instead because it takes no skill or time to squirt "glue" onto the threads is crap.
Companies that don't stake castle nuts because they expect the end user to change out of the receiver plate OR have come up with a better way to secure their castle nuts, I have no issue with.
C4
On all the guns I have built for myself and for friends..... I gasp.... Dont stake the castle nut. This shit is geting way overblown. In 10K+ rounds it has never come loose or caused a malf.
What you have are 2 opposits here:
The owners who will blindly justify their RRA or whatever based on the 100 rounds they shoot a month into a dirt pile. They do not have the round count or sample size large enough to devlop a problem.
Then you have the people who have never owned or shot them and regurgitate some bullshit some dickhead said on the internet. They think anything without XYZ rollmark is a hunk of shit and not worthy of them. Many of these also shoot about 100 rounds a year into dirt, but think their shit doesnt stink.
Then the 3rd group who pisses me off the most. The ones who have a financial stake. Like the gun shop owner who says anything without a 30%+ margin is a piece of shit. Buy this highpoint and DPMS, that glock and LMT are the same thing but 2x the cost. I have a real hard time taking people advise who have a monitary stake in the advise they give. This goes for industry proffesionals as well who always push products that they somehow are related to. I see this in every gun store I go to. Even the good ones. It makes me want to choke the ****ing salesman. Funny how the best advise is always the more expesive product. A informed consumer should not take the advise of a salesman on which of his products to purchase. That is the definition of idiotic and creates a huge conflict of interest. Similar to the Finacial advisors who always seem to push certian mutual funds and products(that they happen to get the highest commision/residuals on).
Then you have to consider that you dont really see Johhny post how great his RRA works. What you hear is Bubba who has a problem. For ever problem, there may be 500 satisfied customers. Its very hard to determine real problem rates unless you know how many are out there, how many have problems, and how hard each is being used.
Unless your occupation is a two way range, or a high probability of getting into an armed altercation, many of the lessor products are fine. You do not need to spend $1000 on a DD or COLT, when a cheap $600 PSA/DPMS will put the same size holes in a dirt pile as KAC or Noveske
When they are the same price however (like RRA & LMT) its a no brainer.
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 09:51
I've had a RRA carbine for about 2.5 years now. I've put over 5,000 rounds through it with only 1 magazine-related issue. The gun is great and I carry it on duty every day.
All that being said....if I did it over again (which I am going to this week), I would go with a higher quality rifle. My previous department required certain manufacturers so that's why I went with RRA. I spent about $1000 on the rifle. No chrome lined barrel, chamber, or BCG. Cheaply done feed ramps. 2 stage trigger which I'm not crazy about. And their "operator" stock on a commercial buffer tube which is a SOPMOD knockoff. Again, I can't knock it TOO much since it HAS been pretty much flawless. But there is a lot to be desired.
This week I am ordering a Spike's Tactical rifle with their enhanced lower parts kit and nickel-boron BCG. The rifle is full mil-spec with everything I could want. And the best part...it's CHEAPER than my RRA. Bottom line..yeah, RRA isn't bad BUT you can get more for LESS.
FYI, this post reeks of ignorance.
Spikes is about as "mil-spec" as RRA. NiBor as far as I know is not used in an fighting arms for our military.
Why do you need it to be CL? Are you shooting corrosive ammo? Are you shooting 10K+ rounds a year? It gets to a point where Ammo costs are going to be 20X the cost to replace the rifle.
Their 2 stages leave something to be desired. I had a RRA NM A2 to shoot highpower. For the money it was great but the trigger could have been better. I could have spent $300 on a G, but it wasnt worth it to me. It was servicable. On a serious comp gun or duty weapon they should not be used. To many horror stories about FCG parts failing (never seen first hand).
Nothing wrong with a Commercial RE as long as you dont plan on changing stocks. I find it retarded the manufactures still use them but thats another story.
Your m4 ramps suck but you said there have been no issues?
Sounds like the rifle has fullfilled your needs. Do you really need to replace it, or are you trying to satisfy your ego and your cool guy standing on the internet. If I was going to replace it with something higher quality for Duty, Spikes would be one of the last manufactures I would use. You should look into a Colt 6920 for around $1K. I preffer Middies to carbines so I would look elsewhere.
A consumer who does not know what he is buying, has himself to blame. You should have researched the product and determined if it was suitable for your requirements.
On all the guns I have built for myself and for friends..... I gasp.... Dont stake the castle nut. This shit is geting way overblown. In 10K+ rounds it has never come loose or caused a malf.
What you have are 2 opposits here:
The owners who will blindly justify their RRA or whatever based on the 100 rounds they shoot a month into a dirt pile. They do not have the round count or sample size large enough to devlop a problem.
Then you have the people who have never owned or shot them and regurgitate some bullshit some dickhead said on the internet. They think anything without XYZ rollmark is a hunk of shit and not worthy of them. Many of these also shoot about 100 rounds a year into dirt, but think their shit doesnt stink.
Then the 3rd group who pisses me off the most. The ones who have a financial stake. Like the gun shop owner who says anything without a 30%+ margin is a piece of shit. Buy this highpoint and DPMS, that glock and LMT are the same thing but 2x the cost. I have a real hard time taking people advise who have a monitary stake in the advise they give. This goes for industry proffesionals as well who always push products that they somehow are related to. I see this in every gun store I go to. Even the good ones. It makes me want to choke the ****ing salesman. Funny how the best advise is always the more expesive product. A informed consumer should not take the advise of a salesman on which of his products to purchase. That is the definition of idiotic and creates a huge conflict of interest. Similar to the Finacial advisors who always seem to push certian mutual funds and products(that they happen to get the highest commision/residuals on).
Then you have to consider that you dont really see Johhny post how great his RRA works. What you hear is Bubba who has a problem. For ever problem, there may be 500 satisfied customers. Its very hard to determine real problem rates unless you know how many are out there, how many have problems, and how hard each is being used.
Unless your occupation is a two way range, or a high probability of getting into an armed altercation, many of the lessor products are fine. You do not need to spend $1000 on a DD or COLT, when a cheap $600 PSA/DPMS will put the same size holes in a dirt pile as KAC or Noveske
When they are the same price however (like RRA & LMT) its a no brainer.
I personally see local LE guns in my shop with loose castle nuts and buffer retainers lodged under the FCG. So I know for a fact that it does and can happen (which is why I am a fan of staking).
You are right, "a" gun is better than no gun. Once that is out of the way, defining how you intend to use your gun SHOULD pick the end product. So if it is just going to sit in a closet or be fired 100rds a month buy whatever you like.
I think what gets most people though (to include myself) is that you can be into a BCM AR for $867 and a Colt 6920 for about $945. So when the RRA/BM/DPMS guns are in that same ballpark, it becomes SUPER STUPID to buy one of these.
YMMV.
C4
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 10:04
Grant,
Does BCM sell whole rifles to retail shops? I know of a handfull of places that carry their products besides them.
Its hard to win market share when 80% of gunstores and customers have never seen or heard of them.
I have never seen a new colt 6920 for less than $1400 in a maryland gunstore. You may be able to sell them for under 1k on the internet, but no retail store is stocking them and selling for that price.
I think it really comes down to ignorance. Half the gun stores, I forgot more about firearms then they will ever know. The other half are less then honest when pushing products on nieve buyers.
That is why it is the responsibility of the purchaser to know what they want/need/can afford.
On all the guns I have built for myself and for friends..... I gasp.... Dont stake the castle nut. This shit is geting way overblown. In 10K+ rounds it has never come loose or caused a malf.
What you have are 2 opposits here:
The owners who will blindly justify their RRA or whatever based on the 100 rounds they shoot a month into a dirt pile. They do not have the round count or sample size large enough to devlop a problem.
Then you have the people who have never owned or shot them and regurgitate some bullshit some dickhead said on the internet. They think anything without XYZ rollmark is a hunk of shit and not worthy of them. Many of these also shoot about 100 rounds a year into dirt, but think their shit doesnt stink.
Then the 3rd group who pisses me off the most. The ones who have a financial stake. Like the gun shop owner who says anything without a 30%+ margin is a piece of shit. Buy this highpoint and DPMS, that glock and LMT are the same thing but 2x the cost. I have a real hard time taking people advise who have a monitary stake in the advise they give. This goes for industry proffesionals as well who always push products that they somehow are related to. I see this in every gun store I go to. Even the good ones. It makes me want to choke the ****ing salesman. Funny how the best advise is always the more expesive product. A informed consumer should not take the advise of a salesman on which of his products to purchase. That is the definition of idiotic and creates a huge conflict of interest. Similar to the Finacial advisors who always seem to push certian mutual funds and products(that they happen to get the highest commision/residuals on).
Then you have to consider that you dont really see Johhny post how great his RRA works. What you hear is Bubba who has a problem. For ever problem, there may be 500 satisfied customers. Its very hard to determine real problem rates unless you know how many are out there, how many have problems, and how hard each is being used.
Unless your occupation is a two way range, or a high probability of getting into an armed altercation, many of the lessor products are fine. You do not need to spend $1000 on a DD or COLT, when a cheap $600 PSA/DPMS will put the same size holes in a dirt pile as KAC or Noveske
When they are the same price however (like RRA & LMT) its a no brainer.
The issue is a "good gun" and the DPMS you mention cost about the same. Some times the "good gun" is even priced less. There is no real difference in price. Where are you buying an AR for $600?
I've had an RE rotate to the point the buffer detent and spring came out and the gun was out of service. I've seen it happen one other time, on the range during a class to another AR. Neither AR's had the castle nut staked. If a company is not willing to stake when it is so easy to do and see what other corners are they cutting.
Grant,
I have never seen a new colt 6920 for less than $1400 in a maryland gunstore. You may be able to sell them for under 1k on the internet, but no retail store is stocking them and selling for that price.
I am pretty sure G&R has brick and mortar shop too.
I am pretty sure G&R has brick and mortar shop too.
They do, I've been there quite a few times...
Just chiming in to qualify the need of castle nut staking. Purchased a complete lower from Spikes and the tube backed out enough for the buffer retainer and spring to be lost; gun useless. You can gather what 2 guidelines I follow now from that consequence. Sorry to sidestep, just saying it does happen.
Can you imagine if there were hundreds of companies producing sub-par M1 Garands? Wrong materials, specs, etc... and calling them M1 Garands? What a friggin poop storm THAT would create.
I mention it because, to me, the M16 family of firearms means a lot to Americans (that are into that sort of thing). And I hate to see it bastardized to "make a buck". Build them the way they were MEANT to be built. Amen?
I can actually think of one instance where there were some sub standard parts made for the M1..The infamous "blue Marlin" barrel..(I'm going from memory, so if I'm wrong, someone please correct me)These barrels were made by Marlin, and were replacement barrels, I believe they were blued instead of parked,and had accuracy problems, If memory serves me correctly they were pulled from service and scrapped, they're collectors items now..
Just chiming in to qualify the need of castle nut staking. Purchased a complete lower from Spikes and the tube backed out enough for the buffer retainer and spring to be lost; gun useless. You can gather what 2 guidelines I follow now from that consequence. Sorry to sidestep, just saying it does happen.
It is VERY frustrating to have your weapon out of service for such a stupid reason and because you do not have $5 worth of spare parts!
Grant,
Does BCM sell whole rifles to retail shops? I know of a handfull of places that carry their products besides them.
Yes (via RSR I think). Not direct from them.
Its hard to win market share when 80% of gunstores and customers have never seen or heard of them.
Understand and agree.
I have never seen a new colt 6920 for less than $1400 in a maryland gunstore. You may be able to sell them for under 1k on the internet, but no retail store is stocking them and selling for that price.
Understand this as well. Remember that MOST gun stores have a lot of overheard so they have to ask that much.
We are a retail store (FYI).
I think it really comes down to ignorance. Half the gun stores, I forgot more about firearms then they will ever know. The other half are less then honest when pushing products on nieve buyers.
That is why it is the responsibility of the purchaser to know what they want/need/can afford.
Correct again. Gun stores should be viewed as the worst place for info (typically) and just like you are skeptical of used car salesmen, do the same with gun stores.
C4
FYI, this post reeks of ignorance.
Spikes is about as "mil-spec" as RRA.
Please elaborate what you mean by this...Just a few things to mention: Spikes MPI test their barrels, properly stake their gas keys, HPT and MPI test their bolts. RRA does not.
Why do you need it to be CL?
It doesn't NEED to be CL, the BCM I am also looking at does not have a fully chromed BCG. CL barrels are nice for ease of cleaning and longevity of barrel life.
Their 2 stages leave something to be desired. I had a RRA NM A2 to shoot highpower. For the money it was great but the trigger could have been better.
So we agree?
Nothing wrong with a Commercial RE as long as you dont plan on changing stocks.
I do plan on changing stocks...
Your m4 ramps suck but you said there have been no issues?
I never said they sucked. They are simply dremeled into the receiver by hand AFTER the finishing process. They are small and hardly considered "ramps" by any means. Have I had any issues? No...not yet. However, in my new rifle...if I CAN get full M4 feed ramps, why not?
Sounds like the rifle has fullfilled your needs. Do you really need to replace it, or are you trying to satisfy your ego and your cool guy standing on the internet. If I was going to replace it with something higher quality for Duty, Spikes would be one of the last manufactures I would use. You should look into a Colt 6920 for around $1K.
THIS post shows ignorance....please show me what Colt gets me that Spikes or BCM doesn't. Please don't call my post ignorant then reply with one yourself. Also, with my whopping post count (50 something) I think it's safe to say I could care less what the internet has to say about my choice in firearms.
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 13:53
Please elaborate what you mean by this...Just a few things to mention: Spikes MPI test their barrels, properly stake their gas keys, HPT and MPI test their bolts. RRA does not.
It doesn't NEED to be CL, the BCM I am also looking at does not have a fully chromed BCG. CL barrels are nice for ease of cleaning and longevity of barrel life.
So we agree?
I do plan on changing stocks...
I never said they sucked. They are simply dremeled into the receiver by hand AFTER the finishing process. They are small and hardly considered "ramps" by any means. Have I had any issues? No...not yet. However, in my new rifle...if I CAN get full M4 feed ramps, why not?
THIS post shows ignorance....please show me what Colt gets me that Spikes or BCM doesn't. Please don't call my post ignorant then reply with one yourself. Also, with my whopping post count (50 something) I think it's safe to say I could care less what the internet has to say about my choice in firearms.
AFAK,
Spikes has not run their parts/products through the same testing that Colt or LMT has. They say they MP test them, but where is the proof? Do they HP test them as well? Nope, which makes MP testing silly. Are they shoot peened? Colt is a much better, proven product and BCM to a lessor extent.
You do not need a Chrome Bolt or NiBor or any of that shit on a duty rifle. Many of them just put a coating on an already finished bolt and it ****ed the dimensions up and there could be issues. They have not been around long enough/used enough to know. How many chrome bolts does the .mil run?
There is nothing wrong with BCM. I think they are the best value/quality out there, especialy if you can get a blemed lower.
If you are a LEO or Contractor who has a good chance of using your weapon in the line of duty, You really should just buy a Colt.
...Gun stores should be viewed as the worst place for info (typically) and just like you are skeptical of used car salesmen, do the same with gun stores.
C4
A friend of mine was fired from a gunshop for striving to be accurate and truthful with the customers
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 14:23
A friend of mine was fired from a gunshop for striving to be accurate and truthful with the customers
Honesty/accuracy/objective advise cuts into profit margins.
Honestly folks. This thread started buying riding lessons for dead horses. Nine pages and I have no flipping ideal without going back to the OP to figure out why it was started.
CL is great for something that rides in the trunk of a patrol car, goes from hot to cold and gets minimal maintenance.
Why yes there are better options out there but when you think about most LEO who purchase rifles the rifles get used very little and for the most part are not abused.
IG or AC close this thing before it goes any further TOS.
Dan
francobx22
02-03-12, 15:58
AFAK,
Spikes has not run their parts/products through the same testing that Colt or LMT has. They say they MP test them, but where is the proof? Do they HP test them as well? Nope, which makes MP testing silly. Are they shoot peened? Colt is a much better, proven product and BCM to a lessor extent.
You do not need a Chrome Bolt or NiBor or any of that shit on a duty rifle. Many of them just put a coating on an already finished bolt and it ****ed the dimensions up and there could be issues. They have not been around long enough/used enough to know. How many chrome bolts does the .mil run?
There is nothing wrong with BCM. I think they are the best value/quality out there, especialy if you can get a blemed lower.
If you are a LEO or Contractor who has a good chance of using your weapon in the line of duty, You really should just buy a Colt.
LOL! - I mean do you read what you write ??? in your post you say Spikes doesnt test like Colt or LMT and that Colt is a proven product and BCM to a lessor extent .. then in the same post you say BCM is the best value and quality.. well which one is it, is BCM crap or good.. you preach about how people give out bad information ... but by reading through these posts, your information you claim isnt on the lines of GOOD.
This thread was started to see if the new RRA LR-47 (an AR that will accept AK mags) would be a good base to build a dedicated and functioning 7.62x39mm that would feed from a correct magazine (the AK-47 and its clones). This rifle is much like a civilian version of the Knight SR-47 which was never released to the public and only limitedly released to certain military units for test and no other company (with the exception of MGI and its replaceable mag wells, which opens up another can of worms) has created a fully operational AR/AK hybrid like this as an out of the box firearm like this. This was nothing more than a person asking that even though RRA is not a “top” tier company are their products good enough to create a reliable firearm. Many have been saying the people should get a DD, Colt, BCM, Larue, and Noveske except none of these have made a weapon system based off the AR that would function using an AK mag thus making all of those companies really non-relevant to the original topic. FYI I have had Aks, yet did not feel like they “fit” me and I found myself going back to my M&P 15TS and PredatAR, thus limiting me to the 5.56 in these weapons versus a 30 caliber alterative that fits into the AR15 size receiver.
DeltaSierra
02-03-12, 16:18
LOL! - I mean do you read what you write ??? in your post you say Spikes doesnt test like Colt or LMT and that Colt is a proven product and BCM to a lessor extent .. then in the same post you say BCM is the best value and quality.. well which one is it, is BCM crap or good.. you preach about how people give out bad information ... but by reading through these posts, your information you claim isnt on the lines of GOOD.
If you actually read, and understood what TurretGunner wrote, you might be able to understand that the things he said are not mutually exclusive.
You conveniently adjusted his "quote" in your response, so as to make it easier to defeat his point, however, he never said what you claimed he said, thereby rendering your argument void, as you based your argument on a made-up quote.
Here is a thought, read more, post less. Stop getting involved in arguments you can't win.
A friend of mine was fired from a gunshop for striving to be accurate and truthful with the customers
LOL, doesn't suprise me.
As most of my local customers will tell you, I am BRUTALLY honest with them (maybe too much). :cray:
"You don't need that!"
"That isn't going to make you shoot better!"
C4
There is nothing wrong with BCM. I think they are the best value/quality out there, especialy if you can get a blemed lower.
If you are a LEO or Contractor who has a good chance of using your weapon in the line of duty, You really should just buy a Colt.
Are you crazy? You make BCM sound like some kind of second rate company. I'd be 101% comfortable hitting the sandbox with a BCM carbine, just the same as a DD or Colt. So now Colt is the only one suitable for combat? Please...
TurretGunner
02-03-12, 18:20
Are you crazy? You make BCM sound like some kind of second rate company. I'd be 101% comfortable hitting the sandbox with a BCM carbine, just the same as a DD or Colt. So now Colt is the only one suitable for combat? Please...
WOW please just stop. Go back and read.
LOL, doesn't suprise me.
As most of my local customers will tell you, I am BRUTALLY honest with them (maybe too much). :cray:
"You don't need that!"
"That isn't going to make you shoot better!"
C4
I have noticed that about you. I appreciate being dealt with honestly
I have noticed that about you. I appreciate being dealt with honestly
============================
Yaahh, MistWolf, you got to watch them Christians...they'll do stuff like that! ;)
.
WOW please just stop. Go back and read.
Why do you say that as if I've been bickering with you the entire thread? I wasn't trying to start an argument or be hostile. (:no:).. That being said, I did read it.. You said anyone in the line of duty, LEO, etc then you should "just buy a colt" .. Care to elaborate on this? I agree RRA rifles are pieces of shit and I also understand BCM doesn't usually have complete carbines for sale but I can think of more than a couple DD carbines I'd take over a Colt 6920 any day.
Edited in the best interest of this thread...
Grant,
Does BCM sell whole rifles to retail shops? I know of a handfull of places that carry their products besides them.
Its hard to win market share when 80% of gunstores and customers have never seen or heard of them.
I have never seen a new colt 6920 for less than $1400 in a maryland gunstore. You may be able to sell them for under 1k on the internet, but no retail store is stocking them and selling for that price.
I think it really comes down to ignorance. Half the gun stores, I forgot more about firearms then they will ever know. The other half are less then honest when pushing products on nieve buyers.
That is why it is the responsibility of the purchaser to know what they want/need/can afford.
My local Sportsmans Warehouse has 6920MPs (the model with Magpul stock, handguard, grip, and sight,) for $1190, and was selling them for $100 less during December. At least 5 Colts of assorted varieties on the rack during my last visit. Just because you have expensive or crappy local shops doesn't mean we all do.
They GAVE them the rifles. Very smart business move on RRA's part because now when anyone asks about the quality, peope will point back to the feds "choosing" the rifle.
C4
That is a common marketing move. S&W just did it with our State Police. They took their Sig 229's in trade and gave VSP new M&P's with 3mags, holsters and mag pouches. And now they can list VSP on their adds and every cop in VT now knows about the M&P.
Most police holsters here in VT carry Glocks followed by Sig and now S&W has gotten back into the mix.
Also the reason Grant is a straight shooter about gear is he is also a shooter. He uses or has tried what he is selling not just reading about it and drinking the Kool Aid.
The BAD lever is a perfect example. I sold mine because of issues folks here had. Grant's advice was the turning point for me.
That is a common marketing move. S&W just did it with our State Police. They took their Sig 229's in trade and gave VSP new M&P's with 3mags, holsters and mag pouches. And now they can list VSP on their adds and every cop in VT now knows about the M&P.
That is a little different deal IMHO. S&W actually got paid in that exchange and there was also (most likely) an open competition (and S&W won).
Also the reason Grant is a straight shooter about gear is he is also a shooter. He uses or has tried what he is sellinhlg not just reading about it and drinking the Kool Aid.
The BAD lever is a perfect example. I sold mine because if issues folks here had. Grant's advice was the turning point for me.
We appreciate that.
C4
Someone please kill this thread.
I agree with Skintop911 as this thread has veered away from the original topic. All I really wanted to know is if the RRA was a good foundation for building a particular type of AR. So as the thread starter I would like the Moderators to please close this thread.
I started a thread sort of like this one and it was locked within moments. I'm sort of jealous of this thread to be honest.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/meatage10months-1.gif
Busta Prima
02-04-12, 18:38
RRA isn't that bad. I didn't read this whole thread because it was too long and went a little OT but wouldn't RRA be a step or two above Bushmaster?
Not trying to start a flame war . . . it's an honest question. I would buy an RRA over Bushmaster (but I wouldn't buy either because I spent more and went high end anyway).
Suwannee Tim
02-04-12, 19:57
No Busta, it's the same as Bushmaster. There are two tiers. The ones we like and the ones we hate.:D
I've got a rock river. It's a 20' with a stainless barrel and 1/8 wylde chamber.
Also have a Bushmaster. 1/9 and 14.5" barrel. It was my first ar and I bought it right after the 2008 election, it was all I could find.
As soon as one of them fails I'll be right here to tell everyone about it. Thing is I spend most of my time shooting one of my daniel defense rifles or my scar17 or my spikes 5.45. So they don't get a lot of use.
TurretGunner
02-04-12, 21:45
I've got a rock river. It's a 20' with a stainless barrel and 1/8 wylde chamber.
Also have a Bushmaster. 1/9 and 14.5" barrel. It was my first ar and I bought it right after the 2008 election, it was all I could find.
As soon as one of them fails I'll be right here to tell everyone about it. Thing is I spend most of my time shooting one of my daniel defense rifles or my scar17 or my spikes 5.45. So they don't get a lot of use.
Cool story..... got a point?
RRA isn't that bad. I didn't read this whole thread because it was too long and went a little OT but wouldn't RRA be a step or two above Bushmaster?
Not trying to start a flame war . . . it's an honest question. I would buy an RRA over Bushmaster (but I wouldn't buy either because I spent more and went high end anyway).
Well according the The Chart bushy actually rates higher than rra.
Cool story..... got a point?
Apparently not any that you're smart enough to grasp.
Yes, lock it. It has served its original purpose, and then some.
Us RRA fanboys will have to figure out another way to defend our under equipped and over priced weapons.
:-D
Busta Prima
02-05-12, 01:22
Well according the The Chart bushy actually rates higher than rra.
I'd still buy an RRA first, if I was in the market for a cheapie . . . well for that matter, I've heard the S&W M&P isn't bad either. That might be the way to go in the budget catagory.
As I stick a fork in it--
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