View Full Version : Recent manufacture M&P 9 accuracy
Due to some unusual circumstances, I ended up doing a first firing of seven recent manufacture M&P 9mm pistols today. They were 2 Pro's, 2 FS with TS, 2 FS w/out FS, and 1 compact with TS. Given reports of inconsistent accuracy with the 9 mm M&P's, I decided to shoot groups with each pistol at 25 yards on a PistolTraining.com target, as it is conducive to shooting groups. My position was sitting, which is stable for me, and I shot two five round groups with each pistol using WWB ammo. For a control, I shot a known accurate M&P 9 FS, and some other pistols.
1) M&P 9 FS, no TS, DCAEK trigger, HD sights. 8 inch group, as well centered as an 8 inch group can be, repeated twice. At that point, I started doubting my trigger control this morning, and shot a Glock 19 with HD sights I had with me. Shot two sub 3 inch groups with the 19 and HD sights. Followed up with old M&P 9 and shot two sub 3.5 inch groups.
2) M&P 9 FS, TS, stock sights and trigger. Both groups were 3.5 inches or better.
3) M&P 9 FS, TS, stock sights and trigger. Both groups were 3.5 inches or better.
4) M&P Pro. Both groups were larger than 6 inches.
5) M&P Pro. Both groups were 3.5 inches or better.
6) M&P 9 C, TS, stock sights and trigger. Group was 6 inches or larger. Elevation was good, dispersion was all in windage. Took another 9C upper I had, put it on the lower, and shot two groups 3.5 inches or smaller.
7) M&P 9 FS, no TS. Both groups were about six inches.
For control, I shot some other pistols and to verify some sights. G17 w/RMR 5 shot group well inside two inch PT dot. M&P 45 mid-size w/RMR, 230 HST, group right around 2.5 inches. G34 FO sights, 2 inch group. G26 group smaller than 3.5 inches.
Amazingly, the G26 with HD sights shot as well as the best new M&P pistol. While undoubtedly, my sitting groups were larger than shot from a bench, 4 out of 7 new M&P 9mm pistols were flat out unusable by my accuracy standards. Not sure what S&W will do when I box the four pistols up and send them back, but they need to be a lot more accurate or go away.
My Pro 9 was a 5-6" gun. I'd have kept it if it would have shown me 3.5". It wouldn't have had to shoot groups like the one in my avatar. ;)
varoadking
01-26-12, 19:33
Guess I got lucky...my new M&P9 shoots just fine...
Hogsgunwild
01-26-12, 19:58
I have become much more fond of my 45 Midsize and Compact over my 9MM Fullsize and Compact due to their accuracy.
After taking all four to the range today and yesterday, I may pick up a H&K P30 9MM to tide me over until the Bar-Sto barrels are ready.
That, or, just shoot the 45s for awhile.
I knew prior to purchasing my M&Ps that by not waiting until Smith gets the bugs out of these guns, I would have to pony-up a bunch of extra cash to get them the way that I want them. I'm guess 1911s have made me immune to crying about dumping money into guns...
MikeCLeonard
01-26-12, 21:17
This whole phenomenon has really bugged me lately. I sold off most of my random handguns with the goal of standardizing on one 9mm platform.
It came down between S&W M&P, Glock 3rd Gen, and Hk's P30 line. After owning and shooting all of these at one point or another...I decided the M&P would suite me best because of it's features and low cost.
Well now it looks like the M&P's will end up costing the same as the damn Hk's. Looks like it's gonna be between the Hk and Glock again.
Hogsgunwild
01-26-12, 21:25
This whole phenomenon has really bugged me lately. I sold off most of my random handguns with the goal of standardizing on one 9mm platform.
It came down between S&W M&P, Glock 3rd Gen, and Hk's P30 line. After owning and shooting all of these at one point or another...I decided the M&P would suite me best because of it's features and low cost.
Well now it looks like the M&P's will end up costing the same as the damn Hk's. Looks like it's gonna be between the Hk and Glock again.
I'm in the same boat as you except that I plan to keep some .45s.
I was avoiding the high cost of H&Ks plus their magazines by going with the M&Ps but it is a wash now. The good thing is that the Bar-Sto barrel should make the M&P 9MM a great gun and I know that H&Ks work well for me. It's long road, isn't it?
MikeCLeonard
01-26-12, 21:56
Yeah, it's proving to be a difficult decision! Over the Hk, I like that the M&P has the Crimson Trace laser grip option, better parts availability, threaded barrel options, and a sub-compact version that can use the same holster as the full-size.
I could just take the chance with S&W, and if it shoots well, then awesome...and if it doesn't, I could get the Apex barrel and get great accuracy...but the whole thing is just leaving a bad taste in my mouth and makes me concerned about Smith & Wesson's quality control in general. I feel like I would have trouble trusting the gun over the long haul.
The same thing kinda goes for Glock at the moment...even though I would get a Gen 3 over the Gen 4...I'm a bit put-off by their recent ability to take one of the most highly trusted designs in the handgun world and make it suck ass.
I realize nothing man-made is infallible, and every manufacturer slips up and lets some turds fly...but I won't purchase their stuff if they don't seem to care about cleaning up their mess.
BTW, thanks for posting these results GJM!
Interesting test and about as I expected.
One thing to try though is shoot the guns with a +P load (especially a 124gr-147gr + P) and see what you get.
C4
Beat Trash
01-26-12, 22:48
As you're sending four guns back to Smith & Wesson, I'd be very interested in what becomes of this. Especially if they do any work to the guns and you repeat the same test with the same guns after they are returned.
Please keep us updated on the results of your four guns.
GJM, thank you very much for posting this information. I look forward to your results with other ammunition and most of all, the results after S&W returns the pistols to you.
I really hope the 4 pistols are returned to you with acceptable accuracy. I've been planning to standardize on one 9mm platform for a while and want it to be the M&P. The results of S&W's warranty work here will greatly influence my decision.
Wow. I am now dreading shooting some new M&Ps I just got.
I am also interested in the outcome, please keep us posted.
I will need to shoot my M&P past 25yards next time I hit the range.
I decided to try to troubleshoot three of the M&P pistols that were not shooting yesterday, and in response to several suggestions, wanted to test them with different ammo. I picked Federal HST 124 +P and Federal AE 147 grain ball as the additional loads, since they seemed to span the range of 9mm loadings.
1) M&P Pro, (was shooting 6-8 inches yesterday with WWB). First shot the AE 147 and got a nice 3.5 inch, or smaller, group. Repeated with the 124 +P HST and got an equally nice group. Repeated with WWB, to make sure it wasn't me, and got an 8 inch group.
2) M&P 9 FS, no TS (was shooting 8 inches yesterday with WWB). Neither the 147 AE or HST shot much better than the WWB.
3) M&P 9, no TS with HD sights and DCAEK (was shooting 8 inches yesterday). The HST shot closer to 5 inches, and the AE ball was just as bad as the WWB. I then grabbed a barrel out of a full size 9 that was shooting about 3.5 inches or better yesterday, and repeated the tests. The pistol still shot lousy, even with the "good" barrel.
NeoNeanderthal
01-27-12, 13:51
" I then grabbed a barrel out of a full size 9 that was shooting about 3.5 inches or better yesterday, and repeated the tests. The pistol still shot lousy, even with the "good" barrel. "
Interesting
YSINTG
Accuracy problems with the M&P 9FS are pretty well-documented.
YSINTG
Perhaps you should read the whole thread before spouting off.
Shoulderthinggoesup
01-27-12, 15:04
I guess I got lucky with mine. I can shoot silver dollar groups at 15 yards all day. I did have to send the thing back when I first got it because the front sights were overmilled and they drifted when firing.
My bodyguard 380 is at s&w for the third time rigjt now for consistant light strikes. I have asked for a refund or replacement.
I won't be buying smiths anymore since everything I buy has to go back.....
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
Perhaps you should read the whole thread before spouting off.
I read the whole thread.
G34Shooter
01-27-12, 15:16
I read the whole thread.
Watching his youtube videos and reading his pasts posts of where he trained and how well he did, I disagree that he's the weak link.
Wow. I am now dreading shooting some new M&Ps I just got.
You have to remember one thing, VERY FEW PEOPLE can shoot under 6" at 25yds for 10rds. So for most, the gun is perfectly acceptable (as they cannot out shoot the gun).
C4
I was puzzled why the inaccurate M&P didn't shoot well when I replaced its "bad" barrel with the "good" barrel from a good shooting M&P.
Just now, I took the "bad" barrel from the inaccurate M&P FS and put it in the good shooting M&P. Amazingly, the "bad" barrel shot as well as its own "good" barrel. I had assumed that the problem was solely barrel related, but this suggests it is more complicated.
I was puzzled why the inaccurate M&P didn't shoot well when I replaced its "bad" barrel with the "good" barrel from a good shooting M&P.
Just now, I took the "bad" barrel from the inaccurate M&P FS and put it in the good shooting M&P. Amazingly, the "bad" barrel shot as well as its own "good" barrel. I had assumed that the problem was solely barrel related, but this suggests it is more complicated.Just did that. The "bad" barrel in a "good" M&P shot as well as its own "good" barrel.
This is bizarre, as I assumed the M&P problem was with barrels, and this suggests it is more complicated.
It is. Much more complicated. I have shot groups that I was impressed with. Then I have thrown rounds high left (6 inches off my other group) and was like WTF??? I just thought I was having a bad day, but then I realized it wasn't me (which Mr. Ransom Rest helped with).
C4
Well, whatever it is, I hope S&W is committed to fixing it. I know the PPQ has been thrown around as a viable alternative, but there are a lot of reasons I want to try and stay with the M&P, which I won't get into now because I don't want to derail the thread. I've also thought about going to M&P in .40S&W, but the cost is prohibitive (and I don't want to get into another caliber debate).
Randy hinted that the M&P will go through a lot of change in the next two years. I also saw on another website that S&W, I think, filed a patent application for a new striker assembly.
Since I don't think I currently out shoot my M&P, I'm willing to be patient, but it would be reassuring to know from someone in the know that the issue(s) will be addressed and when. Maybe that's too wishful thinking.
I've been away from the handgun forum for a while, and am just sort of catching up on the extent of this accuracy problem with the M&P.
I understand that one fix is to have Apex custom-fit a Barsto barrel to your M&P, total cost for a fitted barrel before shipping sounds like approx $365 (see Randy's post (http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1043284&postcount=108) on est cost).
Question: Does anyone know if S&W service has any way of addressing this issue? Say that your M&P is shooting pie-plate sized groups at 25, will S&W actually have an idea of what causes this issue, and will they resolve it?
I've nothing against the custom fix, that sounds great. But it seems like some of these M&P's just sound wrong; they ought to be fixed under warranty if they are really shooting that badly from the factory.
You have to remember one thing, VERY FEW PEOPLE can shoot under 6MOA at 25yds for 10rds. So for most, the gun is perfectly acceptable (as they cannot out shoot the gun).
C4
I'd be thrilled with 6 MOA at 25 yards, as that's about 1.5" for 10 round groups. I've yet to see a 9mm M&P that can achieve that standard from a rest (for 10 rounds).
My 9mm M&Ps (a FS and a Pro) string shots vertically over 6" to 8" at 25 yards with standard pressure ammo.
You have to remember one thing, VERY FEW PEOPLE can shoot under 6MOA at 25yds for 10rds. So for most, the gun is perfectly acceptable (as they cannot out shoot the gun).
C4
Does 6MOA at 25 yards = ( 1.0471996 / 4 ) x 6 = 1.6 inches?
I barely shoot that at 7 yards, but my groups are getting better, which is why I know the M&P still outshoots me. LOL.
Whoops, Mizer67 confirmed what 6MOA means.
Question: Does anyone know if S&W service has any way of addressing this issue? Say that your M&P is shooting pie-plate sized groups at 25, will S&W actually have an idea of what causes this issue, and will they resolve it?
I just got one back from S&W today and will be shooting it Sunday, so I'll know more then. I sent it back for rust on the slide and mentioned accuracy issues as well, and they replaced the slide and the barrel. They sent it back with a note that says it meets spec. I'll try to post back Sunday with observations.
Oddly enough, they replaced the slide with one that has factory night sights on it—which it didn't have before—and the front lamp is dead.
I just got one back from S&W today and will be shooting it Sunday, so I'll know more then. I sent it back for rust on the slide and mentioned accuracy issues as well, and they replaced the slide and the barrel. They sent it back with a note that says it meets spec. I'll try to post back Sunday with observations.
Oddly enough, they replaced the slide with one that has factory night sights on it—which it didn't have before—and the front lamp is dead.
Thanks for the reply--I'll be really interested to hear how your shooting tests turn out. If you don't mind, it would be great to hear what your groupings are like at 25 yards, before and after the S&W service work (and what type of ammo).
I'm actually interested in Randy's Apex custom barrel for one of my M&P's, but I probably won't upgrade all of mine to custom-fit barrels. I'm hoping for the other affected ones that S&W service will be willing/able to help out. But honestly, if they're just throwing a new barrel in there and hoping they get lucky, I doubt it's going to have much impact. As somebody found above, just putting a "good" barrel in a "bad" gun, doesn't necessarily solve anything.
Hmm!!!
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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=36.206466,-115.244028
" I then grabbed a barrel out of a full size 9 that was shooting about 3.5 inches or better yesterday, and repeated the tests. The pistol still shot lousy, even with the "good" barrel. "
Interesting
I have been researching these pistols and had thought that the issue was not related to the barrels but rather to the timing of the barrel lock up. Which may be why +P ammo provides better accuracy (bullet getting out of the barrel before it starts to unlock).
The features, options, and ergonomics of this pistol really have me interested but I am a bit of an accuracy fanatic.
I was wondering if a .40 cal with a 9mm conversation barrel improves accuracy over the stock 9mm configuration while also giving you the option to use .40 for carry, and 9mm for training .
Anyone have experience or thought on this ?
I can't speak to the .40 idea as I have not owned one. I know that the M&P .45 models do not seem to share the accuracy issues with the 9mm. From what I've seen on this forum in past thread, this point is widely agreed, and my sample of one .45 M&P has been extremely accurate.
I'd be thrilled with 6 MOA at 25 yards, as that's about 1.5" for 10 round groups. I've yet to see a 9mm M&P that can achieve that standard from a rest (for 10 rounds).
My 9mm M&Ps (a FS and a Pro) string shots vertically over 6" to 8" at 25 yards with standard pressure ammo.
Sorry, meant 6 inches.
C4
...and I shot two five round groups with each pistol using WWB ammo.Just curious why just one brand of ammo in your tests
and how you came about eliminating the ammo as a possible contributing factor?
Concerned about the accuracy of my mp9, would it be a reasonable test to use something like a Parallax rest for checking accuracy? In my mind it seems like it would help determine whether it's the shooter or firearm.
Just curious why just one brand of ammo in your tests
and how you came about eliminating the ammo as a possible contributing factor?
He tested with WWB and with AE in different weights as well as HSTs
I think that when GJM switched the barrels from a gun that shot well to the gun that didn't and nothing improved, that it would indicated a more deeply rooted issue.
I decided to try to troubleshoot three of the M&P pistols that were not shooting yesterday, and in response to several suggestions, wanted to test them with different ammo. I picked Federal HST 124 +P and Federal AE 147 grain ball as the additional loads, since they seemed to span the range of 9mm loadings.
1) M&P Pro, (was shooting 6-8 inches yesterday with WWB). First shot the AE 147 and got a nice 3.5 inch, or smaller, group. Repeated with the 124 +P HST and got an equally nice group. Repeated with WWB, to make sure it wasn't me, and got an 8 inch group.
2) M&P 9 FS, no TS (was shooting 8 inches yesterday with WWB). Neither the 147 AE or HST shot much better than the WWB.
3) M&P 9, no TS with HD sights and DCAEK (was shooting 8 inches yesterday). The HST shot closer to 5 inches, and the AE ball was just as bad as the WWB. I then grabbed a barrel out of a full size 9 that was shooting about 3.5 inches or better yesterday, and repeated the tests. The pistol still shot lousy, even with the "good" barrel.
I have been researching these pistols and had thought that the issue was not related to the barrels but rather to the timing of the barrel lock up. Which may be why +P ammo provides better accuracy (bullet getting out of the barrel before it starts to unlock).
The features, options, and ergonomics of this pistol really have me interested but I am a bit of an accuracy fanatic.
I was wondering if a .40 cal with a 9mm conversation barrel improves accuracy over the stock 9mm configuration while also giving you the option to use .40 for carry, and 9mm for training .
Anyone have experience or thought on this ?
i dont understand the difference in a 9mm "conversion barrel" and a standard 9mm barrel. having both guns side by side stripped with a caliper taking measurements (after being told by a local smith that the 9mm barrel runs fine in a 40fs. as that was what he did with no modification)... then read about others doing this online??
after reading this i compared and couldn't see (or measure) absolutely any differences in a between the two guns(with the obvious difference in chambering of course), externally the barrels are identical, feed ramps match perfectly. i've even considered using the .40 spring in the 9mm to see if it hold the lockup that fraction of a second longer that could make or break the difference in accuracy. my only worry is fte's with lighter load ammo in that case?
I have been researching these pistols and had thought that the issue was not related to the barrels but rather to the timing of the barrel lock up. Which may be why +P ammo provides better accuracy (bullet getting out of the barrel before it starts to unlock).
The features, options, and ergonomics of this pistol really have me interested but I am a bit of an accuracy fanatic.
I was wondering if a .40 cal with a 9mm conversation barrel improves accuracy over the stock 9mm configuration while also giving you the option to use .40 for carry, and 9mm for training .
Anyone have experience or thought on this ?
I do have the 40FS and the 9mm Storm\Lake conversion barrel. If I go to the range again tomorrow, I will make that my priority. I have shot the heck out of my 40, probably shot around 300 rounds with the 9 conv barrel and it shot great, but all of my shooting is focused on 21ft or closer. Same goes for our 9compact, shot the heck out of that and always tought it was a tac driver at 21ft. The majority of all type of ammo I have used for my 9,40and 45's have been WWB.
We went to a new range today, only had a short time to play, ended up shooting a bunch through my 325 Thunder Ranch and a new to me old Colt Agent 38sp rev.. of course I had to beg a couple mags of my wifes MP15-22.... that my friends is a great gun.
G34Shooter
01-28-12, 22:50
I do have the 40FS and the 9mm Storm\Lake conversion barrel. If I go to the range again tomorrow, I will make that my priority. I have shot the heck out of my 40, probably shot around 300 rounds with the 9 conv barrel and it shot great, but all of my shooting is focused on 21ft or closer. Same goes for our 9compact, shot the heck out of that and always tought it was a tac driver at 21ft. The majority of all type of ammo I have used for my 9,40and 45's have been WWB.
We went to a new range today, only had a short time to play, ended up shooting a bunch through my 325 Thunder Ranch and a new to me old Colt Agent 38sp rev.. of course I had to beg a couple mags of my wifes MP15-22.... that my friends is a great gun.
You're not going to see a problem with the problematic 9mm's until 15 yards/45 feet or more.
You're not going to see a problem with the problematic 9mm's until 15 yards/45 feet or more.
I plan on shooting it 25 yards today, if we get out to the range. Weather looks good, cold, but sunny and it turns out after yesterdays 1st trip to our new range, theyhave wood stoves at all the range huts with plenty of wood stacked as well!!
On a side note, it's good to see the M&P is pretty accurate at the distance it was designed for, no problem there, but they need to get it right!! My main carry in my M&P's is my 40c, I'll try that at 25yds along with my S\L 357sig barrel for that gun.
after reading this i compared and couldn't see (or measure) absolutely any differences in a between the two guns(with the obvious difference in chambering of course), externally the barrels are identical, feed ramps match perfectly. i've even considered using the .40 spring in the 9mm to see if it hold the lockup that fraction of a second longer that could make or break the difference in accuracy. my only worry is fte's with lighter load ammo in that case?
If the outside dimensions are the same that doesnt seem like it will change anything. A conversion barrel should be thicker, no? Did you weight the 9mm conversion vs the stock 9mm or measure the barrel thickness?
I made it to the range today, a little late, it was getting cold and windy. I kinda rushed through it but shot my M&P40fs then swapped out barrels installing my Storm\lake 9mm. Shooting was from sitting at a table, off hand and resting on my range bag. the smaller target on the right was my 40 and the larger target on the left is the 9mm... I was pretty pleased with the performance as I only shoot for self protection, even though I don't believe I will be defending myself from 25 yards, I believe my gun will do the job, even if I can't.. in a nut shell, don't think I see much differance between the 2, although, I seemed to acquire my target a bit quicker with the 9mm. Also, I have the original really crappy white dot sites, they about cover the target at 25yards, that doesn't help and the whilte dots are almost brown. I also have the full FSS trigger kit from APEX. I pretty much blew through each magazine in about 20-30 seconds. I am not a very good or experienced shooter, I know I need proffessional training so save the advice there.
A couple more notes, I shot more rounds with the 40 than hit the target, so I used the larger target for 9mm. Also, how the heck do you zero in on the bullseye when the site covers the whole darn target... :)
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg16/JCottonjr/Guns/IMAG0157.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg16/JCottonjr/Guns/IMAG0152.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg16/JCottonjr/Guns/IMAG0153.jpg
You're not going to see a problem with the problematic 9mm's until 15 yards/45 feet or more.
well thats good to know,I don't usually shoot that far but I guess I will try it next time out to see if mine has any problems ,should i still see a difference at closer ranges?
well thats good to know,I don't usually shoot that far but I guess I will try it next time out to see if mine has any problems ,should i still see a difference at closer ranges?
No, probably not..I recently tried shooting my M&P9 from a bench, at ranges of 10, 15, and 25yds I didn't start to see a accuracy difference until I started shooting at the 15yd target, it got progressively worse from there.
sniperfrog
01-30-12, 10:22
If the outside dimensions are the same that doesnt seem like it will change anything. A conversion barrel should be thicker, no? Did you weight the 9mm conversion vs the stock 9mm or measure the barrel thickness?
I have an M&P40 and a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel and I have an M&P9. From what I can tell using calipers all 3 barrels (40SW, 9mm SL, 9mm SW) all have the same external dimensions.
I believe S&W designed the gun around the 40 cal then just used the same external dimensions for the 9mm barrel and dropped it in. They probably machine the slides all the same regardless of caliber (40, 357sig, 9mm).
I probably would have just bought a S&W 9mm barrel from Brownells for $65 had I known this and used it in my 40. I've been reading of other people doing that with no problems.
However my Storm Lake barrel has been 100% reliable with several types of ammo in about 1100 rounds or so. Accuracy has been decent as well.
.
I believe S&W designed the gun around the 40 cal then just used the same external dimensions for the 9mm barrel and dropped it in. They probably machine the slides all the same regardless of caliber (40, 357sig, 9mm).
I probably would have just bought a S&W 9mm barrel from Brownells for $65 had I known this and used it in my 40. I've been reading of other people doing that with no problems.
.
Well if that is true then my there would be no difference in weight that may slow the cycling down.
That stinks. I really want one of these.
Most off the self 1911's can hold 2" at 25 yards. I would expect a polymer service pistol to at least hold 3".
I have never been persuaded by the concept of practical accuracy. I would like any firearm to be as accurate as possible to cut down on the margin of error; especially when stressed.
Well if that is true then my there would be no difference in weight that may slow the cycling down.
That stinks. I really want one of these.
Most off the self 1911's can hold 2" at 25 yards. I would expect a polymer service pistol to at least hold 3".
I have never been persuaded by the concept of practical accuracy. I would like any firearm to be as accurate as possible to cut down on the margin of error; especially when stressed.
Agree.
MikeCLeonard
01-30-12, 17:42
How would you guys compare the accuracy of 9mm Glocks to these?
What kind of groups are Glocks generally capable of at 25 yards?
How would you guys compare the accuracy of 9mm Glocks to these?
What kind of groups are Glocks generally capable of at 25 yards?
The best my Gen 4 G17 will do for large groups (15 rounds) is 2.55 - 2.6 inches from a rest at 25 yards.
My 9mm M&Ps will string them vertically from 6-8 inches at the same distance.
Is there anyone I can send my gun to, with a pile of cash, that will send it back shooting acceptably? I just got mine back from S&W and they did almost nothing. Rusty slide, front sight falling out, old SHB with small plunger and reports of FTR and all they did was replace the slide. They didn't ****ing touch anything else and said it was "in spec" despite there being tons of shit they should have done.
Is there anyone I can send my gun to, with a pile of cash, that will send it back shooting acceptably? I just got mine back from S&W and they did almost nothing. Rusty slide, front sight falling out, old SHB with small plunger and reports of FTR and all they did was replace the slide. They didn't ****ing touch anything else and said it was "in spec" despite there being tons of shit they should have done.
Well, if you're committed to the platform, I'd wait about 6 months and send it to Randy and have a new barrel fitted up..If he has the matching locking block/sear housings, he was going to make, I'd look into getting them installed as well..
Well, if you're committed to the platform, I'd wait about 6 months and send it to Randy and have a new barrel fitted up..If he has the matching locking block/sear housings, he was going to make, I'd look into getting them installed as well..
So what are all the Team S&W shooters doing? Grabbing piles of guns and benching them until one, by the grace of god/xenu/commander spock, happens to not suck ass? Somewhere there is someone who can make it work today.
So what are all the Team S&W shooters doing? Grabbing piles of guns and benching them until one, by the grace of god/xenu/commander spock, happens to not suck ass? Somewhere there is someone who can make it work today.
Well, I'd be willing to bet that the S&W team isn't shooting "stock" guns.. That said, Randy's probably your best bet..If you don't want to wait, or you're fed up, you can always switch to something else, and move on, That's what I did...
Well, I'd be willing to bet that the S&W team isn't shooting "stock" guns.. That said, Randy's probably your best bet..If you don't want to wait, or you're fed up, you can always switch to something else, and move on, That's what I did...
I agree they aren't shooting stock guns. We also know that S&W has produced laser accurate barrels for Ernest Langdon. Who do you have to be to get one from them? Not asking for it for free, who do I need to know to give money to so we can get a gun that is accurate?
I agree they aren't shooting stock guns. We also know that S&W has produced laser accurate barrels for Ernest Langdon. Who do you have to be to get one from them? Not asking for it for free, who do I need to know to give money to so we can get a gun that is accurate?
I could be wrong here, but I thought that Mr. Langdon had worked for S&W at the time, and made some oversize barrels and fitted them, My understanding is they were primarly for R&D, and not ment for production. Like I said, I could very possibly be wrong,I'm sure someone else will chime in and clear this up. But, I'm afraid you're just going to have to wait until Randy gets his barrels to market. There just isn't anybody who can do anything "today". Sucks ass, I know But what else can you do?
So Doug Koenig, Julie G, and the rest of the S&W shooters are out there with guns that can't shoot a down zero or A-zone at 25 yards?
So Doug Koenig, Julie G, and the rest of the S&W shooters are out there with guns that can't shoot a down zero or A-zone at 25 yards?
No, I never said that, I don't know what they're shooting, But it's probably not exactly stock, and the barrels were probably oversized that were fit to the pistol. I'm sure for the "Team" guns, they (S&W) put considerably more effort into making sure they shoot, than they do the production (as in what you find at the LGS) guns
On some shooting show I watched, Julie G was demonstrating sighting her M&P9 and I was apalled at the groups beyond 15 yds. Looked to be about 5" at 25 and 8 at 50 for 3 shot groups. Nice tdriangles, tho. Given the shooter, I'm thinking that is about all you could expect from the platform.
On some shooting show I watched, Julie G was demonstrating sighting her M&P9 and I was apalled at the groups beyond 15 yds. Looked to be about 5" at 25 and 8 at 50 for 3 shot groups. Nice tdriangles, tho. Given the shooter, I'm thinking that is about all you could expect from the platform.
5" at 25yds actually is'nt too bad..My example does about double that benched. Offhand, at 25yds, There'd be a good chance the paper would'nt have a single hole in it....
5" at 25yds actually is'nt too bad..My example does about double that benched. Offhand, at 25yds, There'd be a good chance the paper would'nt have a single hole in it....
G17's are doing around half that.
G17's are doing around half that.
Yeah, I know...Hell, an XD could probably easily outshoot my M&P9.
Yeah, I know...Hell, an XD could probably easily outshoot my M&P9.
XD's are very accurate.
To add insult to injury, when I went out late this afternoon to run some AE 147 ammo thru the "good" shooting new Pro I got, it was having extraction problems. Will get an Apex extractor, and hope that solves the problem. I really like how well I shoot an M&P, but getting a good one is extremely frustrating.
Does the factory threaded barrel perform any better on a consistent basis or is it just a longer version of the same barrel?
I'm looking at a threaded barrel version M&P 9 from a certain site sponsor with a DCAEK and polished trigger job as a tax return pistol present :D
suthrncop66
02-01-12, 01:32
I was thinking of swapping my XDm for a S&W but now I think I might keep it....it shoots fairly well but a buddy of mine with one (he is a better shot than me) can't hit the broad side of a barn with his..So I guess it could be a crap shoot with other brands too. Sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you don't
Gary1911A1
02-01-12, 01:46
I have a great M&P45, but this thread has changed my mind about getting a M&P in 9MM. Don't want to take a chance on getting a bad one.
I sure hope Smith is tracking reputable forums with threads like these to get end user feedback and are working on a solution. Of course I am sure Grant and Randy have talked to them ad nauseum about this but the more people write in about this the more pressure will be felt to fix it. I just sent S&W a link to this thread.
For kicks and giggles here is a recent grouping from my FS 9. The picture on the left is with a factory threaded barrel and on the right is the barrel that came with the gun. The gun has about 4000 rds. thru it with about 3k through the factory barrel and 1k through the threaded barrel. Warren FO .040 front sight and U notched black rear w/DCAEK. Shot at 15 yards from the prone using Fed. 115 FMJ 'Wal-Mart' ammo. Good group (5 rounds)from the factory barrel and the group goes a little crazy (10 rounds) with the Smith threaded barrel.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/IMG_20111023_163002.jpg
-Jax
i sure hope they find a correct solution soon. i just wonder there is more to it than the barrel and lockup time. i wish i still had my .40 fs i'd like to try the spring from it and see how it cycles and if it helps... its sad that my wifes 9c is more accurate than my fullsize at 25
I sure hope Smith is tracking reputable forums with threads like these to get end user feedback and are working on a solution. Of course I am sure Grant and Randy have talked to them ad nauseum about this but the more people write in about this the more pressure will be felt to fix it. I just sent S&W a link to this thread.
For kicks and giggles here is a recent grouping from my FS 9. The picture on the left is with a factory threaded barrel and on the right is the barrel that came with the gun. The gun has about 4000 rds. thru it with about 3k through the factory barrel and 1k through the threaded barrel. Warren FO .040 front sight and U notched black rear w/DCAEK. Shot at 15 yards from the prone using Fed. 115 FMJ 'Wal-Mart' ammo. Good group (5 rounds)from the factory barrel and the group goes a little crazy (10 rounds) with the Smith threaded barrel.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/IMG_20111023_163002.jpg
-Jax
although this picture leads me to think that lockup IS the issue.... slightly longer barrel equals more time for bullet spent in barrel requiring longer lockup.
does anyone have a .40fs and a 9fs willing to try my theory?
I sure hope Smith is tracking reputable forums with threads like these to get end user feedback and are working on a solution. Of course I am sure Grant and Randy have talked to them ad nauseum about this but the more people write in about this the more pressure will be felt to fix it. I just sent S&W a link to this thread.
For kicks and giggles here is a recent grouping from my FS 9. The picture on the left is with a factory threaded barrel and on the right is the barrel that came with the gun. The gun has about 4000 rds. thru it with about 3k through the factory barrel and 1k through the threaded barrel. Warren FO .040 front sight and U notched black rear w/DCAEK. Shot at 15 yards from the prone using Fed. 115 FMJ 'Wal-Mart' ammo. Good group (5 rounds)from the factory barrel and the group goes a little crazy (10 rounds) with the Smith threaded barrel.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/IMG_20111023_163002.jpg
-Jax
Congrats, great looking groups, I'm sure if S&W looks at this thread they will be happy to see your results. :cool:
i sure hope they find a correct solution soon. i just wonder there is more to it than the barrel and lockup time. i wish i still had my .40 fs i'd like to try the spring from it and see how it cycles and if it helps... its sad that my wifes 9c is more accurate than my fullsize at 25
Is that at 25ft or 25yds?
YSINTG
What does YSINTG mean?
YSINTG
It is in fact the gun.
devilsdeeds
02-01-12, 14:39
What does YSINTG mean?
You Suck It's Not The Gun
You Suck It's Not The Gun
hahaha, that's funny, I had no idea... but didn't want to ask:)
hahaha, that's funny, I had no idea... but didn't want to ask:)
You're not alone. I had to google it.
ColdDeadHands
02-02-12, 07:07
My MP9 shoots just fine out to 15 yards - I never go beyond that. The one time I tried shooting @ 25 yards I couldn't even hold the gun steady enough to shoot something that would resemble a group. I'll take an AR @ that distance.
I'm sticking with the M&P platform as there's no other gun that I shoot as well. That and I'm tired of losing money on buying and selling guns, I went thru enough guns till I ended up with the M&P.
Almost $400 for a replacement barrel is ridiculous, that's almost the cost of the gun...If I'd spend that much on a barrel it better shoot 1" groups at 25 yards.
I'm sticking with the M&P platform as there's no other gun that I shoot as well. That and I'm tired of losing money on buying and selling guns, I went thru enough guns till I ended up with the M&P.
Same here. I shoot the M&P well and after last year I've vowed never to sell another gun I like. Not to mention the perspective must be kept that Smith, like every other company isn't perfect but, is working on the problem. Also the gun has been around since only 2005 and really just picked up a following only a few years ago so the problems were gonna come. Frustrating yes they are but hell the thing shoots better than me.
-Jax
snackgunner
02-02-12, 07:37
I'm sticking with the M&P platform as there's no other gun that I shoot as well. That and I'm tired of losing money on buying and selling guns, I went thru enough guns till I ended up with the M&P.
Almost $400 for a replacement barrel is ridiculous, that's almost the cost of the gun...If I'd spend that much on a barrel it better shoot 1" groups at 25 yards.
I believe Randy said it was $250 for the bar-sto drop in barrel.
I have a question for the powers to be.... Did S&W oversell this gun, did they make a quarantee of accuracy out to 25-50 yards...? It seems to me, my understanding is that this gun is a self defense gun, marketed to protect it's owner out to a "legal" distance as many of the top name trainers seem to train as 7yds.
Nothing wrong with expecting more out of it, I'm just trying to be honest about what we are talking about here and hoping that the few that have much higher expectations can give S&W credit for the base model they have brought to us. Lets remember it is a gun in transition and will undoubtedly improve as time goes on. Continually making derogatory remarks and inuendoes is not going to make it better.
What Randy has done and is still doing is improve on a great gun with upgrades that improve on a different kind of use for the M&P. Unless one is looking to outshoot it's intended use, barrel upgrades aren't going to make a hill of beans difference to self defense useage. I own, race and build souped up turbo street\strip cars. My car runs 8.30's in the 1\4 mile, a friends car runs 10.30's in the 1\4 mile, does that make his car a POS....
I would like add one more thing, I was watching 'Impossible Shots" last night, with Jerry M shooting cans of corn with an M&P, his M&P. When they showed a quick close-up of his gun, the slide did not look like a standard shaped slide.... I may be wrong, it was a quick shot and I really was looking hard.. But then that is universal when it comes to factory sponsored situations. I drag race in a turbo class, the guy who has the turbo manufacturer behind him does not have the same internals in his turbo. For some reason it always makes more power than the other competitors that purchased the same turbo for their cars.
I believe Randy said it was $250 for the bar-sto drop in barrel.
And that's provided the pistol it's going to be dropped into dosen't have other tolerence issues, such as the locking block and sear housing height. If yours is on the high end of these tolerences you MAY have to have the barrel fit..This is something alot of people aren't aware of, and will find out when they buy the barrel and it dosen't work as well as expected. I believe Randy was also working on sear housings/locking blocks that were matched, I'd guess that quite a few people will need these, as well as the barrel.
I'd guess that quite a few people will need these, as well as the barrel.
Forgive me for picking nits, but is your guess based on anything quantifiable?
Forgive me for picking nits, but is your guess based on anything quantifiable?
Yes, Back when Apex first brought out the DCAEK, I bought one, and not long after started having dead trigger issues with it.I called Randy and he offered to mod the sear housing and replace the tiny sear spring for a nominal fee.. He also want to know what the height of slide was.. (with the slide off the frame,slide a feeler gage between the sear housing and frame), I took it to Grant and had him do it, and we came up with a measurement of .039 . When I called Randy and told him he remarked that was on the high side of the tolerance..(as a example my midsize .45 measures .036) I got the sear housing back Randy had also made a slight change in the sear design, as the tail was .010 higher to compensate for these varations..Basically, the higher the slide sat off the frame the less engagement the sear and striker had. I don't know exactly how much impact this has on the barrel, but I've no doubt this is also part of the equation..
Did S&W oversell this gun, did they make a quarantee of accuracy out to 25-50 yards...? It seems to me, my understanding is that this gun is a self defense gun, marketed to protect it's owner out to a "legal" distance as many of the top name trainers seem to train as 7yds.
Don't think they oversold it since there is no accuracy guarantee that's attached to the gun. I just sent mine back and in accompanying letter asked for explicit disclosure of what they consider adequate, so I don't keep sending it back.
I think the frustration stems from the fact that pistols of comparative classes and pricing do not exhibit this problem.
BTW, a lot of top trainers train at 25 yards and further. If you read reviews of classes given by Vickers, Tigerswan, McNamara, you'd find that they make use of long distances extensively as a diagnostic and training tool and stressor. Ernest Langdon and Pat Rogers run a number of drills out to 25 yards. Bill Rogers' target system has targets out to 20 yards that need to be hit under time pressure. Having trained with four out of six above, I can say fairly confidently that 6+ inch/25 yard grouping pistol will significantly detract from one's training experience. More so, it may provide wrong feedback to a user, which to me is one of the most detrimental part of this whole thing.
Turbo:
I read your post above, and I'm confused..Where did you come up with this "legal" distance stuff? I believe most instructors use 7 yds for a variety of reasons..Most comon distance shooting occur at,Reasonably easy distance for new students to get good results with.While I don't have the training alot of other people have, the classes I've been to, We practiced at 7, 10, 15, and 25yds the reason for this is simple..To push the student out of his/her comfort zone, and practice something uncomfortable, and shooting at longer distances is a excallant way to do this. This dosen't have anything to do with "legality"It has everything to do with making you a better shot. It also makes the shots at shorter distances much easier to do. You owe it to yourself to practice at longer ranges than 5-7 yds, There are no set rules in a gunfight..they may start at 5yds and end up at 20, you owe to yourself to have the ability to make shots at those distances if called upon to do so, you're bullshitting yourself if you don't. I practice at 15, 25yds part of the time when I go out, I suck at 25yds, and suck a little less at 15, but, I'm getting better, This puts me way ahead of the guy who never tries it,because I'm pushing myself, and sooner or later, I'll get good at it. Seriously, If you don't practice at 15, 25yds you should try it.. Forget the "legality" horseshit,that just sounds like a excuse. push yourself, you'll benefit from it.
Well, after trying a PPQ, I've decided to stick with the M&P. I am however going to try the M&P40 and 40c this weekend, and may just switch calibers since the inconsistent accuracy seems limited to 9mm (if someone can confirm, that'd be great), but for now the M&P is sufficient for my capabilities. Both the PPQ and M&P shoot better than me. If an FNS ever becomes available for rent or borrowing around where I live, I may try that too, but the M&P meets all my requirements for now: it is comfortable, reliable, easy to work on with lots of knowledge available to find, plenty of support from Mfg and 3rd parties, OEM parts and magazines are plentiful and reasonable in price. The only issue I am aware or concerned about with current versions of M&P is inconsistent accuracy, but I'm confident it will be resolved, it seems limited to 9mm, and I'm not able to take advantage of it at this time due to my own capabilities.
Psalms144.1
02-02-12, 10:07
I have a question for the powers to be.... Did S&W oversell this gun, did they make a quarantee of accuracy out to 25-50 yards...? It seems to me, my understanding is that this gun is a self defense gun, marketed to protect it's owner out to a "legal" distance as many of the top name trainers seem to train as 7yds.
Nothing wrong with expecting more out of it, I'm just trying to be honest about what we are talking about here and hoping that the few that have much higher expectations can give S&W credit for the base model they have brought to us. Lets remember it is a gun in transition and will undoubtedly improve as time goes on. Continually making derogatory remarks and inuendoes is not going to make it better.
Turbo - I'd really like to know what "top name" trainers are saying 7 yards is the maximum "legal" limit for a SD shooting.
Moreover, S&W developed this pistol first and foremost to be an LE duty gun. I'm unaware of any major LE agency that doesn't train and qualify at the 25 yard line and beyond.
There are two reasons why we need reliable accuracy out to 25 yards and beyond. First, the vital zone of a human target doesn't get bigger as the target moves further away; but, for some reason a lot of shooters who wouldn't accept an outside-the-A-Zone hit at 7 yards, are happy to be on silhouette at 25 yards. How does that make sense? If you're shooting at extended ranges, it usually means you have a problem (e.g. the threat is better armed - like with a long gun, or behind cover that you can't maneuver closer to) - and you'll need MORE accurate fire, not less, to finish the fight.
Secondly, every round fired in an OIS or SD shooting has a lawyer attached to it. If your pistol groups in the 8"+ range off hand, can you really say you're confident that you might not miss and hit something/someone you don't intend to?
If your pistol can't reliably hit your target at ranges where you're likely to have to shoot, your pistol is not suitable for duty or defensive carry, period. I'm hearing reports from people I trust with my life that they're seeing stock M&Ps shooting in the 12" category off hand at 25 yards - that's beyond abysmal.
Regards,
Kevin
Training for probabilities rather than possibilities.
I cannot provide a citation for this, but I've been told from someone I took classes from that, among other things, the following:
Firearms - the armed citizen and police officer are likely to have to use a handgun during a situation. In spite of this, many do more rifle than handgun training.
Historically, confrontations occur at 3-5 feet, 3-5 rounds fired, in 3-5 seconds. In spite of this, many courses of fire have at least half the rounds fired past 15 yards.
That's not to say that I don't want a handgun that is capable of 3" or whatever groups at 25 yards or that I won't push myself to become a better shot at 25 yards, but it does give me, personally, perspective on the accuracy debate, which is just one of many factors I consider for my own SD gun.
One non-expert person's opinion.
Thank you Ralph, YVK
I can appreciate your responses, makes sense. I am basing my, and I stress my needs and understanding to the fact I live in Mass. I have been taught in classroom and while practicing that anything over 20ft or so distance is more than likely going to be difficult to prove a life and death situation. If I am the aggressor, it doesn't bode well. That is what I hear over and over, hence my belief that I am limited in what I can do to protect myself and the distance I can fire within. I know it makes no sense to me, but I didn't make the rules. I am not an LEO, or a soldier any longer, my freedoms are limited by the rules of the game and my state of residence.
Larry Vickers and Ken H are not facing the judge and jury should I be involved in a firefight. Because they include longer distances in their training does not make it legal for me to shoot someone at 25yds. Should I train at those distances for the reasons you guys have just pointed out? That's my choice, it doesn't make me wrong or a bad guy if I choose not to. But after participating in this thread and others here, I am beginning to feel as though I want to train further out. As I write this I am becoming more convinced you guys are right, I just did my first real shooting at 25yds this past weekend and think I want to train more of it. I do alot of double taps by point and shoot, but again, I was taught that is where I most likely will be involved in SD, 5ft to 21ft.. I like the thought that we can idientify weaknesses in our shooting technique better by shooting longer distances. You guys are making more sense the more I read and absorb it.
The M&P has had more problems and complaints than pretty much any other widely used gun in recent memory but yet it's still considered one of the "best" by everyone on this forum. I don't get it. S&W has always made just *decent* products and from my experiences, the M&P seems to continue that trait. :big_boss:
although this picture leads me to think that lockup IS the issue.... slightly longer barrel equals more time for bullet spent in barrel requiring longer lockup.
I have a factory threaded barrel and an unthreaded barrel for one of my 9fs. With the threaded barrel the gun shoots high at 25 yards and is zero'd at 200 yards. Yes, you read that right. I knock over Larue pop-ups at 200 yards by aiming dead center.
With the non-threaded barrel, the gun shoots point of aim at 25 yards.
Thank you Ralph, YVK
I can appreciate your responses, makes sense. I am basing my, and I stress my needs and understanding to the fact I live in Mass.
Larry Vickers and Ken H are not facing the judge and jury should I be involved in a firefight. Because they include longer distances in their training does not make it legal for me to shoot someone at 25yds.
Turbo, Consider a shooting outside of the usual self defense face-to-face scenario. An active shooter in a mall, church or any other public area would just about guarantee a shot at that range or further.
If you're not carrying in MA I can understand your logic but as you're finding out no harm comes from training to a higher standard than the minmum you expect to need.
Turbo, Consider a shooting outside of the usual self defense face-to-face scenario. An active shooter in a mall, church or any other public area would just about guarantee a shot at that range or further.
If you're not carrying in MA I can understand your logic but as you're finding out no harm comes from training to a higher standard than the minmum you expect to need.
Thanks, I've been converted, makes sense what you and others have said..... But I'm still not getting rid of my MP15-ORC.. ;) Although my Bud set me up with a BAzzzzz Colt upper to go with my PWA lower.. I should be all Milspec and then some.. :)
djmorris--Did you forget about the gen 4 Glocks, recent Sigs, or Kimbers???
Just as a point of reference, I am an M&P armorer and am around quite a few M&P's--almost all .40 and .45 caliber. In the past four years NONE of the M&P40's or M&P45's have had to go back to the factory for any problems. All have proven quite accurate and reliable--particularly the M&P45's which tend to shoot nearly as well as custom 1911's. I personally use the Apex Duty parts, but even the stock M&P's are quite useable out of the box.
Unfortunately, it seems like both S&W and Glock have work to do on their current 9 mm's...
Nonetheless, when I move out of California, I'll be carrying M&P9's w/ambi safeties, just like Pat Rogers and a bunch of other dialed in folks I know...
Unfortunately, it seems like both S&W and Glock have work to do on their current 9 mm's...
What a Universe turned upside down vs just a few years ago!
Unfortunately, it seems like both S&W and Glock have work to do on their current 9 mm's...
[/b]
Mindful of the proven 10 step process of solving any major problem, with step 1 being to admit there is a problem, Doc, do you think S&W management understands they have an accuracy problem with their M&P 9mm pistols?
Mindful of the proven 10 step process of solving any major problem, with step 1 being to admit there is a problem, Doc, do you think S&W management understands they have an accuracy problem with their M&P 9mm pistols?
If they do they clearly do not give a flying **** about it.
The LE reps clearly know there is an issue...the problem, as almost always at S&W, is on the corporate and commercial side. The bean counters at S&W seem to worry more about saving $0.10 per pistol than spending the time and energy to get it right--most of the folks I know and shoot with would be more than willing to pay $50.00, $100, or even $250 more (think HK, the old classic Sigs, or custom 1911's) for a dead nuts out of the box reliable pistol. If they need to, name the improved, utterly reliable pistols "elite", "professional", etc... and S&W can keep selling the normal, less expensive, less reliable pistols at the current price.
The LE reps clearly know there is an issue...the problem, as almost always at S&W is on the corporate and commercial side. The bean counters at S&W seem to worry more about saving $0.10 per pistol than spending the time and energy to get it right--most folks I know would be more than willing to pay $50.00, $100, or even $250 more (think HK, the old classic Sigs, or custom 1911's) for a dead nuts out of the box reliable pistol.
When calling them and saying "Hey, can I pay you money to make this more accurate" they say no. Doesn't add up.
mallowpufft
02-03-12, 20:08
I saw this thread a couple days ago before I registered and about a week after I had bought an M&P 9c. I was feeling worried as up till today I'd only had time to put a couple mags through it. I hadn't had a chance to spend extended range time with it yet but today I set up around 10 yards to practice some draw and shoot drills from my CC holster.
I was short on time and some college kids pulled up and started scaring me with their safety practices so I only got to put 50 rounds through it before I packed up.
These were just low speed for building myscle memory/habit forming going from holstered to 3 shots on target both with my shirt covering holster and with it exposed.
I shot 4 three round groups, one mag, before starting with the holster. Those 12 rounds were within 2" total. My groups were averaging 1.5"
After that they stated to stray but hole to hole all 50 were within a 6" circle. It probably would have been tighter but the white paint came off the front sight at shot 32 and I got annoyed.
I plopped some in white paint tonight and told SWMBO that my sights broke and I need to replace them (with night sights; but she doesn't need to know that a blob of white paint on a toothpick will work for now).
My M&P has no internal lock or frame safety. Just the trigger.
I was shooting Wolf FMJ because it's cheap and I have a ton of it sitting around for when friends come over and don't bring enough ammo.
The LE reps clearly know there is an issue...the problem, as almost always at S&W, is on the corporate and commercial side. The bean counters at S&W seem to worry more about saving $0.10 per pistol than spending the time and energy to get it right--most of the folks I know and shoot with would be more than willing to pay $50.00, $100, or even $250 more (think HK, the old classic Sigs, or custom 1911's) for a dead nuts out of the box reliable pistol.
My cynical side wonders if S&W has decided it is cheaper/easier to pay for customer service, than to fix the problem. If each M&P 9 purchaser first shot their new pistol at 25 yards, and returned the pistols that shot 6-8 inches, my guess is the bean counters would demand a design and/or manufacturing fix soon.
I plan to be politely persistent, and verify that my four pistols are fixed in the accuracy department, or replaced with four pistols that do shoot.
When calling them and saying "Hey, can I pay you money to make this more accurate" they say no. Doesn't add up.
I think it does add up. They have all the orders they can fill, and haven't reached step 1 -- admitting there is a problem.
We need to get the word to senior management, so they fix the problem for either the right reason, improving the product, or the other reason -- avoiding embarrassment.
If they need to, name the improved, utterly reliable pistols "elite", "professional", etc... and S&W can keep selling the normal, less expensive, less reliable pistols at the current price.
If they did that at least the ones of us that give a damn would have a choice. As it stands my understanding is the Pro model just gets rid of the MIM sear, gets a better trigger pull and FO sights with no barrel improvement.
My cynical side wonders if S&W has decided it is cheaper/easier to pay for customer service, than to fix the problem. .
My cynical side is side-by-side with your cynical side. I think it is a simple cost/benefit analysis for them. On a civilian side, most pistols don't get shot much at all, let alone shot at 25, let alone shot at 25 with shooter's confidence in own skills. On LE side, many PDs run 0.40 which has shot well. Depending on how many 9s come back and what's cost-effective for them, they may simply choose to get rid of "annoying" customers by proclaiming guns "meeting specifications", stopping paying for shipping guns back etc.
My less cynical side remembers how Kimber canned their fiasco of an external extractor after guns started to come back to them en masse. Hopefully, the same will happen here.
My cynical side wonders if S&W has decided it is cheaper/easier to pay for customer service, than to fix the problem. If each M&P 9 purchaser first shot their new pistol at 25 yards, and returned the pistols that shot 6-8 inches, my guess is the bean counters would demand a design and/or manufacturing fix soon.
I plan to be politely persistent, and verify that my four pistols are fixed in the accuracy department, or replaced with four pistols that do shoot.
I figure that's just a delaying action..I'm sure they're aware of the problems, and they also know it's going to cost alot to fix everyone's pistol that has a problem. I'm thinking S&W is working on a "Gen 2" M&P, one in which they applied all the lessons learned from Apex, and with a barrel that now has proper lockup and a standard rate of twist, Of course they'll also make it just different enough so that little or nothing, especially the barrel, will interchange. Thus, trying to force the consumer to buy the new improved version... I can hear it now.."Hey, trust us, really, we got it right this time" yeah, right, the checks in the mail,too...
A fellow shooter just received his MPs back from the factory with a 2 inch 5 round group shot at 10 yards and a letter stating "this meets factory specs". Provided that bullet dispersion is linear (it may or may not be, depending on whether their chosen barrel twist is good enough to stabilize bullet all the way to 25), this translates into a 5 inch group at 25. So, if you want anything better than that, your options are either keep buying MPs until you get a couple of good ones, or wait for Apex barrel. Or shoot 40 and 45.
I can't believe that there is nothing on the market right now that can fully answer my requirements for a polymer pistol in 9 mm. Perhaps I am too picky. Or not good enough.
This thread has got me concerned about my MP9 Pro. It is the only pistol I have that hasn't been shot for groups at 25 yards because I completely switched to Glocks.
However, it sounds like S&W doesn't give a shit and is perfectly okay with the guns only shooting 5-6" groups at 25 yards.
I'll post back once I get a chance to shoot the gun off a bench rest.
I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over this. My two older Pro's shoot fine, as does an older FS, another FS from 10 months ago, an older Compact, and all my 40's and 45's. It seems like pistols from the last half of 2011, based on my sample size of 7, that have such a high percentage of accuracy issues.
Hi All,
One of the many projects I have on my bench is a new locking block that should extend the dwell time and prevent premature unlocking with the factory barrel.
I realize that there are many who would rather not pay for an aftermarket barrel plus fitting. The locking block should be an economical improvement for accuracy.
What the new block will mean for those with a new Apex/Bar-Sto barrel? Early experiments with extending dwell time showed that the delayed unlocking resulted in a softer shooting pistol. The longer we could extend the dwell time (within reason anyways) the softer the recoil sensation.
-Randy
Any idea when this may be available? Hint, there are some pistols that arrived in your shop Friday that would be willing volunteers. :)
Hi All,
One of the many projects I have on my bench is a new locking block that should extend the dwell time and prevent premature unlocking with the factory barrel.
I realize that there are many who would rather not pay for an aftermarket barrel plus fitting. The locking block should be an economical improvement for accuracy.
What the new block will mean for those with a new Apex/Bar-Sto barrel? Early experiments with extending dwell time showed that the delayed unlocking resulted in a softer shooting pistol. The longer we could extend the dwell time (within reason anyways) the softer the recoil sensation.
-Randy
Randy;
I'll have to admit I would be interested in this over a new barrel. Assuming you have some prototypes of this new locking block up and running, how much of a accuracy improvement are you seeing with a stock barrel and your locking block at say 15, 25yds?
I'm also interested in the locking block as an alternative, and what Ralph said concerning accuracy improvement.
KalashniKEV
02-05-12, 10:46
As a former owner of an M&P 9c:
1) This is the kind of thread I never would have started myself, but loved to read. I had no idea why mine was all over the place, but compared side by side to my other pistols, esp those of similar size/weight, it just couldn't keep up. Not even close.
2) My M&P 9c fiasco taught me that there is sooooo much more to having a solid pistol than just "pick the one that feels good in your hand" or "you can trust brand XYZ."
3) Randy Lee- you should just acquire rights and start building the whole pistol. It would be like a reverse Masada move! I'd give it a try all over again... it did feel great with the large backstrap.
Hi All,
One of the many projects I have on my bench is a new locking block that should extend the dwell time and prevent premature unlocking with the factory barrel.
I realize that there are many who would rather not pay for an aftermarket barrel plus fitting. The locking block should be an economical improvement for accuracy.
What the new block will mean for those with a new Apex/Bar-Sto barrel? Early experiments with extending dwell time showed that the delayed unlocking resulted in a softer shooting pistol. The longer we could extend the dwell time (within reason anyways) the softer the recoil sensation.
-Randy
Thanks for making the effort that S&W does not appear to wish to make. Part of me wonders if it weren't for you if the FTR issue would have been fixed.
I can't wait to get my hands on some more Apex stuff. I know it makes the M&P one step closer to a 1911 with all the work needed, but it is worth every penny.
Thanks for making the effort that S&W does not appear to wish to make. Part of me wonders if it weren't for you if the FTR issue would have been fixed.
I can't wait to get my hands on some more Apex stuff. I know it makes the M&P one step closer to a 1911 with all the work needed, but it is worth every penny.
I have a Apex FSS on my midsized.45..Believe me, That WAS worth every penny spent...
Hogsgunwild
02-05-12, 13:15
I have a Apex FSS on my midsized.45..Believe me, That WAS worth every penny spent...
This is so true.
Thought that I would add that LuckyGunner has Sellier & Bellot 115gr.
9MM ammo for $205.00 per case. The reason I bring this up in this thread is that at 1280 FPS, I have enjoyed tighter groups in my full size
M&P 9MM using this ammo. My .45 M&Ps still have my 9MM M&Ps beat for accuracy but this ammo helps to narrow the gap.
That's my go-to practice ammo, too. I've very much enjoyed the results, though it only mitigates (not eliminates) the looseness I see past 15yd with my FS 9.
Last night, I got my hands on the 9c I traded some time ago (...I'll be getting it back, BTW; forgot how much I liked shooting that little thing...), benched it and ended up with a solid 4" group out of it on a B8 target at 25yd, though I had to lollypop to do it. Very satisfactory to me, though it's worth a grimace to think that the 9c is the tighter shooter than the longer barrel of the one I carry every day. :mad:
I'm on the cusp of tossing an aftermarket barrel in the FS, just to see what happens, purely out of curiosity. Doc, Randy, have either of you any input in terms of what may net the most likely best results, based upon what's currently market (Randy, I'm a single guy, my money belongs only to me, so I'm picking up one of yours once it's available, regardless... :D )?
My 45mid....never a hitch; good and tight, and that's the trend I've seen in all of the .45 M&P offerings, as well.
G34Shooter
02-05-12, 13:52
Hi All,
One of the many projects I have on my bench is a new locking block that should extend the dwell time and prevent premature unlocking with the factory barrel.
I realize that there are many who would rather not pay for an aftermarket barrel plus fitting. The locking block should be an economical improvement for accuracy.
What the new block will mean for those with a new Apex/Bar-Sto barrel? Early experiments with extending dwell time showed that the delayed unlocking resulted in a softer shooting pistol. The longer we could extend the dwell time (within reason anyways) the softer the recoil sensation.
-Randy
I guess my FS9 is getting both and my 9c will get the locking blocks... My wife is not going to be happy lol.
Hogsgunwild
02-05-12, 15:49
That's my go-to practice ammo, too. I've very much enjoyed the results, though it only mitigates (not eliminates) the looseness I see past 15yd with my FS 9.
Last night, I got my hands on the 9c I traded some time ago (...I'll be getting it back, BTW; forgot how much I liked shooting that little thing...), benched it and ended up with a solid 4" group out of it on a B8 target at 25yd, though I had to lollypop to do it. Very satisfactory to me, though it's worth a grimace to think that the 9c is the tighter shooter than the longer barrel of the one I carry every day. :mad:
I'm on the cusp of tossing an aftermarket barrel in the FS, just to see what happens, purely out of curiosity. Doc, Randy, have either of you any input in terms of what may net the most likely best results, based upon what's currently market (Randy, I'm a single guy, my money belongs only to me, so I'm picking up one of yours once it's available, regardless... :D )?
My 45mid....never a hitch; good and tight, and that's the trend I've seen in all of the .45 M&P offerings, as well.
Yes Sir, that 9C is a pleasure to shoot and seems to (relatively speaking, for what it is) carry it's weight better than my 9FS.
I have wanted to hear about others' experiences with the compact to help me gauge where I am at. I normally practice for accuracy at 25 yards on B8 targets. To be able to keep most of my rounds in the black (with my 9C), I had to pull the target back to 20 yards. At 25 yards I am still all over the target, even with my support hand over the bench and under the strong hand (lollypop grip?). Each time I shoot the thing the groups have tightened up so some of my problem is me but the gun does concern me past 20 yards.
My 45C keeps them tight at 25 yards like the 45 midsize.
I also plan on giving both of my 9MMs the full treatment from Randy as everything becomes available (barrels, locking blocks, whatever Randy thinks they could use, I'll grab it). All four of my M&Ps have the FSS kits in them already.
Hi all,
We are still in the modeling phase with the locking block.
I think the semi-drop in barrel option will yield the most benefit per dollar when compared to any other drop in barrel. The reason is that the locking geometry that we are incorporating into the Match/Target version is present in the Semi Drop-In(SDI). Anyone who has played with installing one of the Bar-Sto SDI's knows that sometimes a little filing here or there is needed. Most of the time they drop in without any assistance, and unless the slide to frame fit is way out on the fringe, they lock up pretty snug, thus eliminating a lot of the play.
I have installed quite a few SDI's, and I would say that they easily shoot under 3"@ 25 yds with good ammo.
When the locking blocks go into fabrication, I will provide more real world data. I do think that people will see much more consistent group size with fewer flyers. Any mentioning of how much improvement there could be is purely speculation at this point.
My 9L cannot print better than 8" at 25, and that is a competition gun. The second proto barrel was fitted to the 9L and even though the muzzle end was .001" larger in bore diameter (wrong end of the barrel blank was used) it still shoots under 2" @ 25 off a rest with my crappy eyes behind it.
-Randy
Hogsgunwild
02-05-12, 20:11
Thanks Randy, for your updates and all of the hard work that you do. You juggle a lot of balls in your shop. I have dealt with a lot of sharp gunsmiths over the years but you have dazzled me with your competence (I know that no-one has ever said that about me, ha ha, and I am no screw-up).
I have followed your work ever since I have followed the M&P platform and it amazes me that between S&W and you, I can have such an awesome gun for under 1K.
Thanks Randy, for your updates and all of the hard work that you do.
ABSOLUTELY! If Randy wasn't working away at these we'd be at the mercy of S&W to decide they feel like fixing it. Thank you.
Randy is a unique asset, to lover's of M&P pistols. Kudos to him.
My 9L cannot print better than 8" at 25, and that is a competition gun. The second proto barrel was fitted to the 9L and even though the muzzle end was .001" larger in bore diameter (wrong end of the barrel blank was used) it still shoots under 2" @ 25 off a rest with my crappy eyes behind it.
-Randy
That performance out of your 9L factory is just amazingly poor, I would have been really disappointed if my 9Pro had shot that poorly.
It's funny, but I can't help wondering if in a lot of the early enthusiasm for the m&p (as with any new pistol), the accuracy issues at longer ranges were sort of overlooked by a lot of people. If you look back through older threads, you just don't see it coming up that much in the earlier generations of the m&p. A few would mention it, but they would usually be reminded that it was THEM and not the gun (which was probably often true), or that this is a defensive handgun. Again true. But these arguments certainly don't account for the NUMBER of people seeing the accuracy issues, and they definitely don't account for the kind of poor accuracy that you and others in this thread cited at 25 yards.
I guess what I'm really getting to is: How did this widespread accuracy problem with the M&P9's remain hidden for so long?
I guess what I'm really getting to is: How did this widespread accuracy problem with the M&P9's remain hidden for so long?
How many people truly shoot at any distance beyond 10-15 yards on bullseyes or other small probability targets in efforts to see how well they can shoot?
Also, how many people cannot shoot better than an 8" group no matter the gun?
Personally with my M&P's I thought it was me until I benched them and other pistols only to see a huge difference.
I guess what I'm really getting to is: How did this widespread accuracy problem with the M&P9's remain hidden for so long?
I believe there was a running production change to the barrel as a result of it needing to drop into the Compact models as well as the FS. Prior to this production change when the Compact models were released, the FS and Pro/L barrels were more accurate.
How many people truly shoot at any distance beyond 10-15 yards on bullseyes or other small probability targets in efforts to see how well they can shoot?
Also, how many people cannot shoot better than an 8" group no matter the gun?
Personally with my M&P's I thought it was me until I benched them and other pistols only to see a huge difference.
Those seem like legit reasons, which point to a common explanation: people simply weren't AWARE of this lockup issue for a long time, because they had several other explanations for the poor accuracy that seemed to be more likely causes. It just doesn't enter your mind that S&W would have a pistol that's this well made (overall), and this popular, but also has such a significant issue with accuracy. Especially since the issue doesn't seem to repro in the other calibers.
My perspective is I think it's just a design flaw, pure and simple. How the 9mm got out their door with the accuracy problem is what I'd like to know. Perhaps they don't factory test much at 25? Dunno.
Anyway, I still like the m&p platform better than the alternatives, and will stick with mine. The other pistols have had their bugs too, but S&W have got to admit that this one is pretty big. Still, I like the M&P and think it's worth staying with it. There are a lot of advantages to this platform, and I have yet to find ANY pistol that does not have bugs too, especially in early generation models or after significant redesigns.
An M&P at its best--with an APEX trigger and a barrel that does not exhibit the accuracy issue--is a real pleasure to shoot, certainly my favorite polymer handgun on the market. I'm glad at least a couple of the 4 I have perform at this level, so I know what my others WILL be capable of when fixed.
Hilton Yam posted on the 10-8 Facebook page this morning that the stock barrel in one of his M&P 9s gets sub 3" groups @25 yards with, as he puts it, "147 grain anything" but over 6" groups with the 124 grain ball that he uses for practice. He changed to a Storm Lake barrel and his 147 grain groups remained the same, but his 124 grain groups shrank to under 4". I thought it was interesting.
Hilton Yam posted on the 10-8 Facebook page this morning that the stock barrel in one of his M&P 9s gets sub 3" groups @25 yards with, as he puts it, "147 grain anything" but over 6" groups with the 124 grain ball that he uses for practice. He changed to a Storm Lake barrel and his 147 grain groups remained the same, but his 124 grain groups shrank to under 4". I thought it was interesting.
That's promising.
Hilton Yam posted on the 10-8 Facebook page this morning that the stock barrel in one of his M&P 9s gets sub 3" groups @25 yards with, as he puts it, "147 grain anything" but over 6" groups with the 124 grain ball that he uses for practice. He changed to a Storm Lake barrel and his 147 grain groups remained the same, but his 124 grain groups shrank to under 4". I thought it was interesting.
That's a good change.
3" is pretty and may be at the limit of the 147gr ammo while dropping 2" (or 1/3) for the 124gr is do due to the better barrel.
Let me preface by saying, I am just a guy that likes to shoot pistol. I am not a HSLD type of guy. However, I don't want my gun to be accurate, I INSIST that it be accurate.
I see a lot of folks here saying that the M&P is accurate enough or assume that most shooters wouldn't realize the accuracy difference. I for one, do not find an 8" spread at 25 yards to be accurate enough and I have the capability of shooting well enough to see the difference.
I have an M&P40F, that I also bought the M&P factory 9mm barrel for and that Grant got me a few 9mm 15rnd mags for. BTW, so many times have I seen it, but another plug for Grant and his excellent service. I do see a marked difference in accuracy from 10 yards, 15 yards and at 25 yards w/ the 9mm. I was assuming this was because I'm shooting an M&P9 barrel in an M&P40. I happen to like my M&P a lot and was considering getting one in 9mm. My desire for one has diminished quite a bit from reading threads like this and others.
I picked up a PPQ the day before Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving, I was in a motorcycle accident and am still heaing up. I haven't been to the range yet w/ the PPQ, but I have high hopes for it to become the "one" based on the excellent reviews I've read. One of the main attributes I've read on the PPQ is it's excellent accuracy. Why can't S&W have that asset in the M&P9 on a consistent basis?
I'm sure there are accurate M&P9's out there, I'm just not going to gamble $500 or so to hope for an accurate one. 'Tis a shame.
However, I don't want my gun to be accurate, I INSIST that it be accurate.......
I see a lot of folks here saying that the M&P is accurate enough or assume that most shooters wouldn't realize the accuracy difference. I for one, do not find an 8" spread at 25 yards to be accurate enough and I have the capability of shooting well enough to see the difference........
Why can't S&W have that asset in the M&P9 on a consistent basis?
I'm sure there are accurate M&P9's out there, I'm just not going to gamble $500 or so to hope for an accurate one. 'Tis a shame.
YES, yes, and yes. Let me preface that I am primarily a pistol shooter and and learned to shoot with 1911's.
Outside of a pocket pistol, I am a little alarmed with the idea that there would be so many people that can not shoot well enough to notice their pistol only holds a 6 to 8" group at 25 yards.
These threads are very upsetting to me. With the availability of the Apex triggers and a thumb safety option, I thought I may have a modern platform that is "1911 enough" for me to switch.
I had planned to go with a .40 and a 9mm conversion for practice.
Let me preface by saying, I am just a guy that likes to shoot pistol. I am not a HSLD type of guy. However, I don't want my gun to be accurate, I INSIST that it be accurate.
I see a lot of folks here saying that the M&P is accurate enough or assume that most shooters wouldn't realize the accuracy difference. I for one, do not find an 8" spread at 25 yards to be accurate enough and I have the capability of shooting well enough to see the difference.
I have an M&P40F, that I also bought the M&P factory 9mm barrel for and that Grant got me a few 9mm 15rnd mags for. BTW, so many times have I seen it, but another plug for Grant and his excellent service. I do see a marked difference in accuracy from 10 yards, 15 yards and at 25 yards w/ the 9mm. I was assuming this was because I'm shooting an M&P9 barrel in an M&P40. I happen to like my M&P a lot and was considering getting one in 9mm. My desire for one has diminished quite a bit from reading threads like this and others.
I picked up a PPQ the day before Thanksgiving. The day after Thanksgiving, I was in a motorcycle accident and am still heaing up. I haven't been to the range yet w/ the PPQ, but I have high hopes for it to become the "one" based on the excellent reviews I've read. One of the main attributes I've read on the PPQ is it's excellent accuracy. Why can't S&W have that asset in the M&P9 on a consistent basis?
I'm sure there are accurate M&P9's out there, I'm just not going to gamble $500 or so to hope for an accurate one. 'Tis a shame.
Yeah, I was ready to pull the trigger on one about six months ago and didn't do it for the same reason. I don't mind buying a $500.00 pistol and putting $500.00 into it to make it into what I want because truth be told, I modify everything to some extent or another; but, that option isn't available yet. Until the Apex/Bar-sto barrel comes out, I'm stuck with hoping or sending it back the Smith and Wesson however many times it needs to be. The Hilton Yam blog was interesting if it works for others as well. You have a stop gap measure that gets you under 3" accuracy at 25 yards. Then, when the new barrel comes out, you can choose what you want to do.
YES, yes, and yes. Let me preface that I am primarily a pistol shooter and and learned to shoot with 1911's.
Outside of a pocket pistol, I am a little alarmed with the idea that there would be so many people that can not shoot well enough to notice their pistol only holds a 6 to 8" group at 25 yards.
These threads are very upsetting to me. With the availability of the Apex triggers and a thumb safety option, I thought I may have a modern platform that is "1911 enough" for me to switch.
I had planned to go with a .40 and a 9mm conversion for practice.
It's only the 9mm that seems to have the problem and not all of them, just some of them. The .40, from personal experience and from what I've read are fine. The .45, again from personal experience and what I've read, is generally a tack driver. Again only the 9mm seems to have the problem.
It's only the 9mm that seems to have the problem and not all of them, just some of them. The .40, from personal experience and from what I've read are fine. The .45, again from personal experience and what I've read, is generally a tack driver. Again only the 9mm seems to have the problem.
Yeah but for economy purposes I wanted to drop a conversion barrel in an use 9mm for practice/training. When shooting .45 I feel reloading is all but mandatory as the $ savings is substatial (especially lead bullets).
I intended to get set up to reload for .40 and 9mm but also like the fact the 9mm is cheap enough that I don't feel obligated to reload all the time for it.
From what I have read here and other places, the 9 mm conversion barrels have the same issues and have the same external specs. I would imagine if SW redesigned anything they would also change the 40 barrel specs as well.
I did handle a M&P 45c today and I liked it a lot. It's about the same size as my series I Kimber Compact.
Yeah but for economy purposes I wanted to drop a conversion barrel in an use 9mm for practice/training. When shooting .45 I feel reloading is all but mandatory as the $ savings is substatial (especially lead bullets).
I intended to get set up to reload for .40 and 9mm but also like the fact the 9mm is cheap enough that I don't feel obligated to reload all the time for it.
From what I have read here and other places, the 9 mm conversion barrels have the same issues and have the same external specs. I would imagine if SW redesigned anything they would also change the 40 barrel specs as well.
I did handle a M&P 45c today and I liked it a lot. It's about the same size as my series I Kimber Compact.
I understand. As I've said, I've shot the .40 and it seems fine to me. Not as refined as the HK or the Gray Guns P226 I was shooting at the same time, but for box stock, not bad. And I'm not a .40 guy, so I'm probably not the best judge. Shooting .40 is almost as expensive as shooting .45, so I understand the economic/reloading part of your post.
I like the M&P .45 quite a bit, but for concealed carry, I find a 1911 is so slim that it takes much less to dress around it. Now, I don't own and have never tried to conceal the M&P, so maybe it would be just as easy and I just don't realize it.
Hi All,
Here is a sample target shot with the Bar-Sto 9mm FS proto barrel...
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Target-pic.jpg
I posted this on Brian Enos, but it may be of interest here. I am very interested in these Bar-Sto barrels...
5" Pro benched @ 25 yards.
Stock barrel:
Factory Federal 115gr - 5.620"
147 Precision moly 3.2gr N320 - 5.771"
147 MG CMJ 3.6gr N320 - 4.256"
KKM Drop in barrel:
Factory Federal 115gr - 4.135"
147 Precision moly 3.2gr N320 - 2.364"
147 MG CMJ 3.6gr N320 (132PF) - 1.876"
I posted this on Brian Enos, but it may be of interest here. I am very interested in these Bar-Sto barrels...
5" Pro benched @ 25 yards.
Stock barrel:
Factory Federal 115gr - 5.620"
147 Precision moly 3.2gr N320 - 5.771"
147 MG CMJ 3.6gr N320 - 4.256"
KKM Drop in barrel:
Factory Federal 115gr - 4.135"
147 Precision moly 3.2gr N320 - 2.364"
147 MG CMJ 3.6gr N320 (132PF) - 1.876"
A bit off topic, that Federal Champion ammo from Walmart isn't great, but even worse is the 100 round value pack version of that ammo.
I bought a shitload of it from the local Walmart because it was only $20 a 100 round value-pack....around $200 per 1000 (before taxes). So...after not shooting pistol for a few weeks, I set up a B8 at 25 yards and began to work on accuracy. I get rounds in the black and rounds low and right in the 6, 7, and 8 ring. A 6"-8" 10-shot group.
Ok, so maybe I suck and need to warm up, right? Wrong (well, I do suck ;))! I couldn't get either of my G19s to group correctly and both are verified to shoot 2.5"-3" groups benched with American Eagle 115 grain. I got so frustrated that I ended shooting a 5 round group, with each gun,with my carry ammo (124 grain +P HST) and got 2.5"-3" groups off-hand in the black.
My shooting isn't great, but the incorrect feedback caused by the shit ammo was very frustrating.
A bit off topic, but that Federal Champion ammo from Walmart isn't great, but even worse is the 100 round value pack version of that ammo.
I bought a shitload of it from the local Walmart because it was only $20 a 100 round value-pack....around $200 per 1000 (before taxes). So...after not shooting pistol for a few weeks, I set up a B8 at 25 yards and began to work on accuracy. I get rounds in the black and rounds low and right in the 6, 7, and ring. 6-8" group.
Ok, so maybe I suck and need to warm up, right? Wrong! I couldn't get either of my G19s to group correctly and both are verified to shoot 2.5" groups benched with American Eagle 115 grain. I got so frustrated that I ended shooting a 5 round group, with each gun,with my carry ammo (124 grain +P HST) and got 2.5"-3" groups off-hand in the black.
My shooting isn't great, but the incorrect feedback caused by the shit ammo was very frustrating.
What's to get frustrated about, you bought cheap ammo!! If you buy a hamburg at McDonalds, do you expect it to taste like Prime rib....:)
What's to get frustrated about, you bought cheap ammo!! If you buy a hamburg at McDonalds, do you expect it to taste like Prime rib....:)
Yeah, yeah I know, but sometimes you can find cheap target ammo that will actually group.
I don't usually have problems with WWB 100 round value packs, Blazer Brass, or even the 50 round boxes of the Federal Champion. They will usually land rounds into the black when I perform a correct shot sequence. It isn't phenomenal accuracy, but it's usually nice to have the feedback that you're doing something correctly, instead of worrying about what's at fault, you or the gun. As a right handed shooter, shooting a Glock, I don't think I've ever thrown rounds down to the right that consistently.
Those Federal 100 round value-packs, which I thought might be the same thing as the 50 round stuff....:bad:
My M&P 9 full size slide finally got back from Bowie Tactical, where he installed a RMR. Have been waiting for it, as I planned to run it at a Rogers School course in March. A buddy volunteered his full size 9/RMR slide as a back-up, and that arrived the same day.
First objective was to zero the RMR at 25 yards, and of course, check accuracy. The Bowie RMR upper was almost impossible to zero at 25 yards, with WWB, as I was getting 7-8 inch "groups." Next I tried Federal AE 147 ball, and got about 3.5 inch groups, with a very different point of impact. OK, neat, figured I would shoot some HST 147 grain, and have a similar POI, covering a shooter and carry load. The 147 HST load shot about 6 inches. Next tried the HST 124 +P load, and it shot about 3 inches, but about three inches to the right of the 147 AE load.
Fairly disgusted, I next shot my buddy's RMR top end. WWB went about 8 inches at 25 yards. Tried the Federal 147 AE, and it went at least six inches. Again widely divergent POI.
I shot my G17/RMR for reference, and it shot WWB and Federal AE 147 to the same POI, with groups under 3 inches at 25 yards.
I can't began to express how frustrated I am with S&W M&P 9mm pistols. It is a darn shame, because I love the ergo's of the M&P, but Smith has a major problem that they need to solve quickly. I spoke to Randy Lee this afternoon, and I am half inclined to throw all my M&P pistols into a box and shoot Glock pistols until his new barrel becomes available. If you have M&P 9mm pistols that you have shot for groups at 25 yards, I think it would be a good idea to shoot them and see what you have.
I haven't been dedicating much time to pistol shooting lately because I'm practicing for an upcoming carbine course, but I did manage to put the MP9 Pro through a benchrested 10 round group off a sand-filled rest.
With Blazer Brass 115 grain the group was about 4" in size, low and to the right of the point of impact.
http://m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11121&stc=1&d=1328757295
Hogsgunwild
02-08-12, 21:11
Hi Mike, yep I have several cases of that crap (Federal Champion) in .40 S&W that they knew was mislabeled (way low) on the price and they sold it to me anyhow. I just use it for speed drills or in my USP Expert since it will shoot anything accurately.
On another note, I took my M&P Compact 9MM out to the desert two days ago and to the range yesterday with the intention of running a lot of Sellier and Bellot through it to see exactly what it could do. I was surprised at how well it was shooting even at smaller items out to about 80 yards. Yesterday at the indoor range, at 25 yards, I managed a supported off of the bench hold grouping of nine rounds in a row within a four inch group. That was the best I could get so I stopped shooting supported. This is what JSantoro reported also so I was thrilled to find that my gun was not the weak link (I was). I went on to shoot on the range's version of the B8 target (the black is a five inch circle) and was able to keep about 60% of my rounds in the black (unsupported) at 25 yards. I was extremely happy with these results.
Now that my IDot Pros are tweaked dead on and GunTited, and I have really gotten to know this thing, I think I have a new favorite hogleg. Not bad for a 3.5 inch barreled gun.
I think I will basically mothball my M&P 9MM FS until I can get Apex to put a BarSto barrel in it.
My M&P 9 full size slide finally got back from Bowie Tactical, where he installed a RMR. Have been waiting for it, as I planned to run it at a Rogers School course in March. A buddy volunteered his full size 9/RMR slide as a back-up, and that arrived the same day.
First objective was to zero the RMR at 25 yards, and of course, check accuracy. The Bowie RMR upper was almost impossible to zero at 25 yards, with WWB, as I was getting 7-8 inch "groups." Next I tried Federal AE 147 ball, and got about 3.5 inch groups, with a very different point of impact. OK, neat, figured I would shoot some HST 147 grain, and have a similar POI, covering a shooter and carry load. The 147 HST load shot about 6 inches. Next tried the HST 124 +P load, and it shot about 3 inches, but about three inches to the right of the 147 AE load.
Fairly disgusted, I next shot my buddy's RMR top end. WWB went about 8 inches at 25 yards. Tried the Federal 147 AE, and it went at least six inches. Again widely divergent POI.
I shot my G17/RMR for reference, and it shot WWB and Federal AE 147 to the same POI, with groups under 3 inches at 25 yards.
I can't began to express how frustrated I am with S&W M&P 9mm pistols. It is a darn shame, because I love the ergo's of the M&P, but Smith has a major problem that they need to solve quickly. I spoke to Randy Lee this afternoon, and I am half inclined to throw all my M&P pistols into a box and shoot Glock pistols until his new barrel becomes available. If you have M&P 9mm pistols that you have shot for groups at 25 yards, I think it would be a good idea to shoot them and see what you have.
I've always "felt", in my non-firearms professional sort of way, that my MP9 Pro never locked up when fully in battery. It takes absolutely minimal pressure to move the slide back when a round is chambered.
Contrast that with my Glocks, which all lock securely into battery, the difference is night and day.
The MP9 Pro is the wife's gun. She can't outshoot the accuracy of the gun and the small backstrap matches up with her small hands and makes the gun far more easy to shoot than my Glocks.
Pat Roger's new MP9 didn't group worth a damn at Pistol 2 (10/11). He was wondering what the problem was and proceeded to borrow a student's MP9 and put down a 5 shot 2"-3" group at 25 yards.
Apparently some of the guns just suck.
I've always "felt", in my non-firearms professional sort of way, that my MP9 Pro never locked up when fully in battery. It takes absolutely minimal pressure to move the slide back when a round is chambered.
Contrast that with my Glocks, which all lock securely into battery, the difference is night and day.
The MP9 Pro is the wife's gun. She can't outshoot the accuracy of the gun and the small backstrap matches up with her small hands and makes the gun far more easy to shoot than my Glocks.
Pat Roger's new MP9 didn't group worth a damn at Pistol 2 (10/11). He was wondering what the problem was and proceeded to borrow a student's MP9 and put down a 5 shot 2"-3" group at 25 yards.
Apparently some of the guns just suck.
So in your experience the effort it takes to move the slide back when in battery has direct relation to M&P's accuracy out to 25 yard?
G34Shooter
02-09-12, 22:20
So in your experience the effort it takes to move the slide back when in battery has direct relation to M&P's accuracy out to 25 yard?
Read the whole topic and the Apex/Bar-Sto thread as well, a worn recoil spring can really show the early unlocking problem which contributes to inconsistent accuracy.
So in your experience the effort it takes to move the slide back when in battery has direct relation to M&P's accuracy out to 25 yard?
My experience is this matter is very, very little. I merely gave my opinion about how securely the gun locks up compared to my Glocks.
G34Shooter already explained why...
TeamGrazzi
02-10-12, 09:45
Ok so after reading through this thread there are a lot of number thrown out so I will just ask those of you that have MUCH more knowledge on this than I do.... :thank_you2:
What grouping sizes should I be getting at the various distances? I usually shoot 115gr and 124gr ammo, but I am liking the way 124gr feels. The day I picked up my M&P 9 I shot 200rds (100 of each weight) at 7yds just to start breaking it in and was pretty happy with the groups although I should measure them to see what they are.
Desired groups for
7yds - ??
15yds - ??
25yds - ??
Based on what I've heard, if it meets the following it is within the S&W specification (2 inches @30 ft):
7yds - 1.4"
15yds - 3"
25yds - 5"
Those aren't hard number to reach if your trigger pull is decent and eyesight good.
Hogsgunwild
02-10-12, 15:25
Ok so after reading through this thread there are a lot of number thrown out so I will just ask those of you that have MUCH more knowledge on this than I do.... :thank_you2:
What grouping sizes should I be getting at the various distances? I usually shoot 115gr and 124gr ammo, but I am liking the way 124gr feels. The day I picked up my M&P 9 I shot 200rds (100 of each weight) at 7yds just to start breaking it in and was pretty happy with the groups although I should measure them to see what they are.
Desired groups for
7yds - ??
15yds - ??
25yds - ??
What I see from this and other threads (including my experiences): The 9C is capable of 4"@25yds w/ hotter ammo.
The 9Pro seems all too often to give 8" @25 yards.
The 9FS seems to be in between (although some are tight). Groups loosen up in the FS and Compact for sure if you just use typical, slower practice ammo like WWB. I'll say it again, the Sellier and Bellot tightened the groups up in my FS and Compact (1280FPS @ $205.00 a case).
The .45ACP Sellier and Bellot is 900 FPS and decently priced for practice ammo if you look around. I have been buying two cases at a time for my 9MM and .45ACPs. It has tightened my groups up a hair in my .45C and Midsize.
Went for a brief range session today with the .45C and 9C and could not be happier. The 9C had a couple of unsupported groups as small a 5" to 6" and the .45 had several a bit tighter than that. These guns make me want to get rid of all my other guns. Amazing how the 9C groups 4" @ 25 yards but is so user friendly / shoot-able that you can shoot it close to it's full potential unsupported.
Thought I'd reiterate that my M&Ps have the FSS kits on them as it makes a difference.
Groups at 7 or 10 yards tell one next to nothing about the gun. Only about the shooter's trigger press. I had a 1911 that shot soccer ball sized groups at 25 yards but could put 20 into a golf ball sized rathole at 7 yards. The Gen 4 G17 in my avatar has grouped 1.5" at 25 (avatar) but try as I might I haven't shot a perfect one hole 5 shot group at 7 yards with it.
Got my M&P back for the second time, this time they forgot to include the locking block coil pin...
Ridiculous enough they will likely require me to send it back for them to do anything.
You have to remember one thing, VERY FEW PEOPLE can shoot under 6" at 25yds for 10rds. So for most, the gun is perfectly acceptable (as they cannot out shoot the gun).
C4
It's tough with the M&P 9mm. I took it (an early, 2007 variant, with Apex sear), a Gen 3 G19, and my new CZ75 P-07 to the range today. The P-07 blew them out of the water when shooting 10 round groups at 20 yards. I'll clean the M&P's barrel really well, and shoot more groups, but I think the P-07 is an inherently more accurate pistol. Why I don't know. Maybe it's the ugly trigger guard? :rolleyes:
One of the many projects I have on my bench is a new locking block that should extend the dwell time and prevent premature unlocking with the factory barrel.
... The locking block should be an economical improvement for accuracy.
Why is this?
Also, is there a down side to increasing dwell time? After all, one might think S&W had some reason for a dwell time shorter than what you're pursuing.
Thanks.
G34Shooter
02-24-12, 20:13
Why is this?
Also, is there a down side to increasing dwell time? After all, one might think S&W had some reason for a dwell time shorter than what you're pursuing.
Thanks.
You must have been away from the forums the past 9 months or so lol. Search for my topic about the Apex /Bar-Sto barrels and why they are being made.
You must have been away from the forums the past 9 months or so lol. Search for my topic about the Apex /Bar-Sto barrels and why they are being made.
I have been, and I will. Thanks.
You must have been away from the forums the past 9 months or so lol. Search for my topic about the Apex /Bar-Sto barrels and why they are being made.
I read the 11-page thread on the Apex /Bar-Sto barrels, but came away with no particulars on the relationship between dwell time and accuracy, nor on any trade-offs for increasing dwell time.
After all, one might think S&W had some reason for a dwell time shorter than what you're pursuing.
Thanks.
Not this one. I don't think the engineering was focused on that or they'd have not pushed it so far. More likely just overlooked because as Grant has posted often and accurately so few (% of total) of the buyers will push the gun to the point it is noticed. We have heard reports - credible to me - that this was not originally a problem but to streamline production - when the M&PC came along it needed a different barrel hood profile and this "new" profile was standardized across the line for efficiency. And this exacerbated the early unlocking on FS or longer guns.
The largest handgun company is not THAT large of a company and they can only afford so much R&D and engineering. Shit happens.
G34Shooter
02-24-12, 21:17
I read the 11-page thread on the Apex /Bar-Sto barrels, but came away with no particulars on the relationship between dwell time and accuracy, nor on any trade-offs for increasing dwell time.
Randy Lee goes in depth somewhere, it's difficult to find on my phone.
G34Shooter
02-24-12, 21:47
Here's some that may help from over a year ago :
We just ran some hi speed video of the M&P9L open gun we built for a customer. There is very little (if any) dwell time in the system. The barrel is unlocking from the slide almost instantly. Not only does this affect accuracy, but extraction and the ejection pattern- which is why we were filming the gun in the first place.
I also have to agree that the twist rate is not ideal for standard velocity and heavy bullets (147 gr and up) IMO. In speaking with Irv Stone on the topic, we both agreed that the barrel dwell time needs to be extended.
I believe there needs to be more material left on the bottom lug of the barrel. By having the bottom horizontal flat make solid contact with the locking block, vertical play is reduced or eliminated. This means that the barrel and slide must move together to the rear and in the same fixed relationship for at least .030" or more before the barrel begins to drop clear of the slide.
Bar-Sto M/T barrels are left oversized on the bottom lug so that the gunsmith can fit it precisely to an individual gun. Hopefully I will be getting a sample from Irv soon.
-Randy
Not in any reliably fashion. However, if you pull the slide slowly to the rear, you can see the barrel begin to unlock from the slide pretty quickly. On a 1911 or SIG or Glock, the barrel and slide will move to the rear and maintain the same relationship for at least .030" before the barrel hood begins to drop down. It is not quite an accurate application of forces, but it gives a close approximation.
-Randy
When we looked at the hi speed video footage frame by frame on the 9L open pistol, you can see that in one frame to the next when the slide begins to move rearward, the barrel has dropped. Since this was shot at 1000 fps, frame to frame is approximately 1 millisecond. We confirmed this by filming several shots so that the frame to frame pictures would overlap and paint a better picture of the event.
In any event, I would personally like to see the barrel and slide remain in the locked orientation for a bit longer. I think accuracy would be improved at least to some degree.
As a purely anecdotal example, I fitted a barrel to Glock 24 40 several years ago. The lock up was solid and the slide and barrel moved as harrydog described his 1911 in his post. That Glock shot sub 1" groups offhand at 50 yards. That shattered my belief that polymer guns could not produce Bullseye accuracy.
-Randy
Received my four problem child M&P 9 pistols back from S&W today. One was noted, barrel replaced, range checked for accuracy, and the other three were all noted, slide replaced, range checked for accuracy. Look forward to shooting them at 25 yards.
Here's some that may help from over a year ago :
I searched on subject terms, and Randy's name, but apparently didn't go back far enough.
Good stuff, G34Shooter. Thanks.
G34Shooter
02-26-12, 13:12
I forgot how far back it was as well lol
Got to shoot one M&P FS, returned by Smith with the note that the slide was replaced, and test fired to accuracy standards.
All at 25 yards. WWB shot 6-8 inches, Winchester Ranger T 124 +P shot around 6 inches, Aguila 124 ball shot poorly (this is the same load that shoots about two inches in another 9 FS), Lawman 124 TMJ shot decent but not great, and 147 HST shot acceptably, but nowhere near as good as any Gen 4 Glock I have. Point of impact varied noticeably in windage with different loads. Interestingly, assuming Smith replaced the slide, they removed and reinstalled my Trijicon HD sights and the Apex DCAEK parts.
Started shooting M&P 9C, also returned with the notation that the slide was replaced for the accuracy problem. Initial results were not impressive, but I need to spend more time on this one.
Also shot a Gen 4 G19, and it shot Ranger 124 +P T, 147 HST, Aguila, and Lawman all in three inch or better five shot groups, to the same point of impact.
Today I spend some time with a stock G17RTF2 (current carry gun with night sights), two M&P 9mm's, and two Storm Lake barrels. I used a Crimson Trace CMR-201 mounted to the rail and aimed at a black paster at 25 yards, firing from sand bags with a second person viewing and calling anything that had the laser jump off the paster.
Ignore the writing on the card, got out of hand, I followed other notes to make the captions.
G17 at 10 yards:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1803.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1800.jpg
G17 at 25 yards with Remington UMC and Speer Gold Dot HP, unknown weight (124 ish):
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1801.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1806.jpg
The GDHP's fell within expectations, under 3" at 25.
M&P #1:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1807.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1808.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1809.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1796.jpg
Storm Lake barrel helped meet the S&W requirement of 2" at 10y although it still was dismal. Stock was far worse, falling outside of 2" at 10 yards.
M&P #1, SL #2:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1797.jpg
M&P #1, SL #1:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1799.jpg
M&P #1, SL #2:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1786.jpg
Overall M&P #1 sucks. It will be going back. Stock barrel performance is terrible.
M&P #2, stock. This was the control group. This gun was a 4.5"-5" gun as shot by myself and two other accomplished shooters, one being an amazing PPC shooter.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1781.jpg
Add the Storm Lake barrel, #2, and some fast Ranger. I had 2 flyers that my wife called out. (WTF was that were the exact words"
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1788.jpg
Switch to 127gr +P+ and it opened up. The barrel was hot and there may have been some target shaking and slight stringing on my end as well. Either way it is better than stock.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1792.jpg
Also ran a 10y group with this combo just to compare to S&W's standard. Kinda large considering I printed a hole with the G17.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/IMG_1794.jpg
G34Shooter
02-26-12, 22:07
Were the last 4 targets at 25 yards?
Were the last 4 targets at 25 yards?
25,25,25,10
G34Shooter
02-26-12, 22:19
25,25,25,10
Thanks. The last one is labeled and obvious lol.
I thought they all were. Correcting it now.
I ran into cross issues with my note cards and had to follow my plan and read through texts sent to people as I was going to weed out the proper pics.
G34Shooter
02-26-12, 22:30
Oh, and how do you feel overall about the Storm Lake barrels so far?
My FS9 is getting the Bar-Sto but I'm debating on a black SL for my 9c and add the Apex locking block down the line for minimum down time. Both of mine are in the acceptable accuracy range but I want better with more ammo choices without sacrificing reliability.
For M&P #2 it worked well, for M&P #1 it was meh. M&P #1 was a good gun a while back, groups opened up and I finally had to send it back because the front sight fell out and the slide was rusty as hell. This is the new slide with the old barrel. Supposedly it met S&W's standards, the kicker is they sent it back to me without the locking block coil pin which means they tested it without that pin. I got the new pin 6 days later, they sent it overnight, and this is the result. Even with good ammo at 10 yards, sighted with a friggin' laser and shot from a bench it is over 2".
With the Storm Lake it just barely passes. M&P #2 is great though. My control gun, the G17 fired in the same manner by me, was pretty awesome though.
It is really a crapshoot. I am gonna raise some hell with S&W tomorrow and send it back for trip #3. #2 will be put to use with the Storm Lake barrel as it is shooting <2" with duty ammo.
I have a new M&P 9mm built/test fired in mid January of this year. Unfortunately I ordered it a couple of days before reading this thread. It is incredibly easy to pull back the slide compared to a new Gen4 G19. The G19 is a tack driver with 124g ammo and still good with 115g. The M&P is not so good. It may be me, but I would not even call what I shoot with it groups. I had a 2010 M&P that I shot all last year and it started out ok but accuracy seemed to get really bad after a 1000 rounds or so. I thought it was just me so I traded it out for an FNX which I shot a lot better, but now I wonder.
Gun #1 from above was sent back to S&W tonight, return #3.
Gun #1 from above was sent back to S&W tonight, return #3.
What's your experience with they're turn around time and thier overall "solutions"?
2 weeks. Each time there has been an attempted solution.
This gun is old. It was from the batch that had bad melonite treatment. The slide was not bothering me if I hit it with oil once a month. The front sight fell out and I sent it back after trying a few other sights to be sure. They replaced it no problem. They did not replace the old SHB with the new one. Sent it back and they replaced that and the trigger bar. Each time they said it was in spec for accuracy. I say it is not shooting as well as they believe and they said send it back again. I believe they are doing what they can within their power.
Thats not a bad turn around time. Id be interested in what they concider exceptable accuracy.
I wonder what thier response would be if you requested a new gun?
...I thought it was just me so I traded it out for an FNX which I shot a lot better, but now I wonder.
I doubt it was just you. That mirrors my experience when trying to shoot tight groups with my M&P and FN. The more I shoot the FN, and the more I read about M&P/newer Glock issues, the more I think maybe I should put the time into really learning the DA/SA trigger and make it my EDC.
Orion, nice shooting... :)
It seems your groups are "angularly" tighter at 10 yds vs 25 yds (this is, the 25 yds groups are larger than 2.5X the 10 yds groups).
Unless I'm in a VERY good day, when shooting standing two handed I mostly shoot for groups at 10 to 15 m (10.9 to 16.4 yds). I've found that MY level of accuracy is generally more consistent shooting at this relatively short distance than at longer ranges. I know from a lot of shooting from a rest and testing that the groups open in about the same angle, and if shooter error is taken apart 25 m groups are about 2.5X the size of 10 m groups. It still normally carries on to 50 m.
Regarding the original topic, it is amazing that S&W did not test their guns with high speed films to check dwell time, unlocking, and ejection patterns. This has been a normal tool in the industry for at least 20 years, and filming at 10,000+ frames per second is easy and affordable nowadays. It is something so basic and so well understood that shold be taken into account at the very early stages of the pistol design.
I also wonder why Smith's R&D missed the dwell time boat and can't help but think that maybe they extrapolated from the .40(designed first)to the 9mm and mis-figured. Correcting the problem may be expensive--depending on manufacturing variables involved--especially if reliability issues arise.
I remember reading that 25 years or so ago when Ruger was developing their first 9mm pistol, they had accuracy problems. Irv Stone, Sr. was called in as a consultant and suggested a longer dwell time to improve performance. That was the first time that I had heard of dwell time.
I read this article in a major gun magazine 25 years ago--so it ain't a web rumor. :D
Orion, nice shooting... :)
It seems your groups are "angularly" tighter at 10 yds vs 25 yds (this is, the 25 yds groups are larger than 2.5X the 10 yds groups).
Unless I'm in a VERY good day, when shooting standing two handed I mostly shoot for groups at 10 to 15 m (10.9 to 16.4 yds). I've found that MY level of accuracy is generally more consistent shooting at this relatively short distance than at longer ranges. I know from a lot of shooting from a rest and testing that the groups open in about the same angle, and if shooter error is taken apart 25 m groups are about 2.5X the size of 10 m groups. It still normally carries on to 50 m.
Regarding the original topic, it is amazing that S&W did not test their guns with high speed films to check dwell time, unlocking, and ejection patterns. This has been a normal tool in the industry for at least 20 years, and filming at 10,000+ frames per second is easy and affordable nowadays. It is something so basic and so well understood that shold be taken into account at the very early stages of the pistol design.
I used a laser and sandbags, it was certainly not me doing the work which is exactly what I had wanted.
Not sure on the angular groupings, but it is obvious to me as well.
No matter sandbags, laser, spotter, scope, etc., in my experience groups don't magically open up (angularly speaking) from 10 to 25 m. At least with decent ammo, and this is the case.
If I had to guess, with due respect, it was the shooter. There is a lot more in action when the shot is fired than simply aligning the dot perfectly on target (supposing you can actually see it, real time, all the fast sequence), the way the trigger is pulled when the shot breaks, the grip, etc.
No matter sandbags, laser, spotter, scope, etc., in my experience groups don't magically open up (angularly speaking) from 10 to 25 m. At least with decent ammo, and this is the case.
If I had to guess, with due respect, it was the shooter. There is a lot more in action when the shot is fired than simply aligning the dot perfectly on target (supposing you can actually see it, real time, all the fast sequence), the way the trigger is pulled when the shot breaks, the grip, etc.
Not all the ammo is the same for everything. Much of the better ammo was used determining which of the two Storm Lake barrels worked best with M&P #2. Dispute it if you like.
Hi folks first post here. Found this thread when researching the topic.
I have an M&P 9mm FS. It has early unlocking problems, I can see the drag marks that the firing pin left. It hits waay high at 25 yards and gets 8+ inch groups. I can get 2 inch groups from CZ 75 I confirmed this shooting from a rest.
I tried WWB ammo Speer Gold dot defense ammo and hot reloads, makes no difference.
I bought a KKM drop in barrel and it did nit appreciable shrink my groups.
The pistol is currently at S&W getting looked at. Due to a large recall of another line (venture i think) I have about 2 week wait time.
I have an M&P 9mm FS. It has early unlocking problems, I can see the drag marks that the firing pin left.
Welcome to the forum Petrov, do you have a photo of this drag mark?
I took one with my camera phone quality is not too good, it is much more pronounced up close.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/417281_10150679043335039_577810038_10917699_328421071_n.jpg
You can see the drag marks opposite of the tear drop cut out one the breech face.
Hi folks first post here. Found this thread when researching the topic.
I have an M&P 9mm FS. It has early unlocking problems, I can see the drag marks that the firing pin left. It hits waay high at 25 yards and gets 8+ inch groups. I can get 2 inch groups from CZ 75 I confirmed this shooting from a rest.
I tried WWB ammo Speer Gold dot defense ammo and hot reloads, makes no difference.
I bought a KKM drop in barrel and it did nit appreciable shrink my groups.
The pistol is currently at S&W getting looked at. Due to a large recall of another line (venture i think) I have about 2 week wait time.
sounds about exactly like my gun. shooting 8+, pretty much 10-11" at 25 yds this past weekend at a VSM course and verified w/ a known good shooter. gun was test fired at S&W in Nov. 2011, and just sent it back to them yesterday. I was contemplating the KKM drop-in before going the customer service route, but appears the results may have been negligible anyways :( sigh...
Well, I got off the phone with the smith CS, it is on the way back only took 9 days. He could not tell me what was done to it, I guess I get to find out on tuesday.
I will let a small cat out of the bag.
I talked another barrel manufacturer into making over sized M&P barrels (so they will need to be gunsmith fitted).
I ordered 3 9mm barrels in each length (compact, FS and five inch).
Will keep everyone posted once I get the barrels, fit them and check the results.
C4
I will let a small cat out of the bag.
I talked another barrel manufacturer into making over sized M&P barrels (so they will need to be gunsmith fitted).
I ordered 3 9mm barrels in each length (compact, FS and five inch).
Will keep everyone posted once I get the barrels, fit them and check the results.
C4
I'll bring the beer!
I'll bring the beer!
Well, I don't shoot all that well as it is, so Beer won't help me. ;)
C4
I will let a small cat out of the bag.
I talked another barrel manufacturer into making over sized M&P barrels (so they will need to be gunsmith fitted).
I ordered 3 9mm barrels in each length (compact, FS and five inch).
Will keep everyone posted once I get the barrels, fit them and check the results.
C4
Grant, this is great news. If you get what you believe is a probable fix that would address this issue, seriously, I would order at least 2 and possibly 4 barrels from you. Please, keep us posted, and use me for a guinea pig if it would help: I've got 4 M&P's, and they come in several flavors: a standard 9c, standard 9Pro, a 9FS with DCAEK, and another 9FS with the "Pistol training" package from a couple years ago. Two out of the 4 have the accuracy problem BAD, the other two are a bit better but still perform worse than all other 9mm pistols I own in the accuracy department.
If I could get my M&P's shooting with even MODERATELY good accuracy, they would be my favorite defensive pistols, period.
Celebratory for after.
My method with the Crimson Trace CMR-201 worked quite well and was able to match the results of the best PPC shooter in the area, that and the ransom rest should really make like easy.
But seriously, make the barrels happen and I'll buy you a case of good beer.
Grant, this is great news. If you get what you believe is a probably fix that would address this issue, seriously, I would order at least 2 and possibly 4 barrels from you. Please, keep us posted, and use me for a guinea pig if it would help: I've got 4 M&P's, and they come in several flavors: a standard 9c, standard 9Pro, a 9FS with DCAEK, and another 9FS with the "Pistol training" package from a couple years ago. Two out of the 4 have the accuracy problem BAD, the other two are a bit better but still perform worse than all other 9mm pistols I own in the accuracy department.
If I could get my M&P's shooting with even MODERATELY good accuracy, they would be my favorite light/polymer defensive gun, period.
I might just take you up on this offer (as I do not have a 5" available to me).
To be honest, my goal is to get the gun to shoot around 3" groups. That is it. Not 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5. I believe that this can be done by changing the twist rate and fitting the hood.
C4
Celebratory for after.
My method with the Crimson Trace CMR-201 worked quite well and was able to match the results of the best PPC shooter in the area, that and the ransom rest should really make like easy.
But seriously, make the barrels happen and I'll buy you a case of good beer.
Oh, the barrels are a sure thing (paid for them an everything). Compact 9mm barrels will be first and then FS barrels I think.
All I have to do is prove that the "theory" will improve accuracy. If I am wrong, then I just bet over $1k and lost. Oh well, we need tax write offs..............
C4
To be honest, my goal is to get the gun to shoot around 3" groups. That is it.
count me in for a FS if that happens. I'd ship as soon as mine returns from S&W.
Thx for the link G34. Todd himself has a post in that thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?924-M-amp-P-Bar-Sto-Barrel-from-Apex-Tactical-preview-pic&p=14680&viewfull=1#post14680) you linked to, where he explains it in detail.
In fact, it sounds like not only did he get a barrel that avoided the lockup problem, he actually got a special barrel that was from a "small special run of barrels S&W did for Ernest Langdon to address the problem. That barrel shoots all ammo like a laser beam."
So basically, I guess we can conclude two things about the accuracy of Todd's gun: the barrel that he achieved such great accuracy with was NOT a typical M&P factory barrel, but at the same time, with the right barrel setup it IS possible to get great accuracy out of an M&P. Unfortunately, Todd goes on to add that S&W specifically rejected making the changes from the Langdon run of barrels that worked to their M&P production line (because they thought it might require hand-fitting, thus increased $$$).
The test gun on Todd's blog did not use the Langdon barrel. The Langdon barrel was put on his earlier M&P. The test gun had a standard barrel.
The test gun on Todd's blog did not use the Langdon barrel. The Langdon barrel was put on his earlier M&P. The test gun had a standard barrel.
Good clarification, I did not realize he was talking about two different guns.
So that means, with a FACTORY M&P barrel, he was getting those sub 2" groups (http://pistol-training.com/archives/1252). Pretty impressive for a standard M&P, especially because he was taking averages of 5, 5-shot groups at 25 to get his numbers.
FU! S&W FU!
Their solution to my problem was sticking their head in the sand.
Ignored me mentioning the striker leaving gouges/drag marks on the primer.
They test fired the pistol at 15 yards and said that it was within spec.
I specifically mentioned problems at 25 yards.
Do they actually bother to read/listen to what the problem is?
I am livid right now.
Got off the phone with S&W Cs, they said that they usually test it at 7 yards and that it is within spec.
What a ****ing waste of time and money.
So far I have seen statements of testing done at 7, 10, and 15 yards. I was last told they tested my gun at 25 and 50 yards.
Strange...:stop:
Got off the phone with S&W Cs, they said that they usually test it at 7 yards and that it is within spec.
What a ****ing waste of time and money.
oh boy... can't wait to see my gun returned under the same guise
So far I have seen statements of testing done at 7, 10, and 15 yards. I was last told they tested my gun at 25 and 50 yards.
Strange...:stop:
The S&W rep told me that they aren't even supposed to test it at 15, they are supposed to test it at 7 and 10.
G34Shooter
03-06-12, 13:40
Good clarification, I did not realize he was talking about two different guns.
So that means, with a FACTORY M&P barrel, he was getting those sub 2" groups (http://pistol-training.com/archives/1252). Pretty impressive for a standard M&P, especially because he was taking averages of 5, 5-shot groups at 25 to get his numbers.
His barrel was before they made changes to the barrel to standardize manufacturing with the compact models.
His barrel was before they made changes to the barrel to standardize manufacturing with the compact models.
+1 Yep. He has explained exactly that.
Went out to the range today again just to make sure that it is the arrow and not the indian.
This is what M&P group looked like at 25 yards:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/6960382115_b53cf85a0e_b.jpg
BTW this is from a rest, there are 3 holes not 5 the other two went on the cardboard. But hey S&W says that it is within spec.
I have shot a glock once in my life it felt wrong, felt like I was holding another mans penis, I could not reach the magazine release button either. Rented a G19 for shits and giggles and shot it 25 yards offhand
Here are the results:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7177/6814269126_93260ce8c9_b.jpg 5 shot group I had one flyer but I called it.
Went out to the range today again just to make sure that it is the arrow and not the indian.
This is what M&P group looked like at 25 yards:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/6960382115_b53cf85a0e_b.jpg
BTW this is from a rest, there are 3 holes not 5 the other two went on the cardboard. But hey S&W says that it is within spec.
I have shot a glock once in my life it felt wrong, felt like I was holding another mans penis, I could not reach the magazine release button either. Rented a G19 for shits and giggles and shot it 25 yards offhand
Here are the results:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7177/6814269126_93260ce8c9_b.jpg 5 shot group I had one flyer but I called it.
daaamn, Your pretty good with a penis in your hand.... :dance3:
MikeCLeonard
03-06-12, 23:48
Both of the above posts made me...
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/mikecleonard/ror.jpg
:D
I pestered Randy Lee so much, that he finally agreed to lend me his prototype barrel to use at a Rogers Shooting School course next week. Randy had told me that this was a prototype barrel, obviously not fit to my slide, and not incorporating final improvements that are in process in the final pre-production test run -- in other words, he worked hard to temper my expectations.
While I really like M&P pistols, I have had a terrible time getting the 9mm models to shoot. Over time, I have accumulated a number of M&P 9's that shoot acceptably if not great, but each one tends to be unique to itself, in shooting just one or two loads, and having widely varying points of impact, especially windage, with different loads. The problem is bad enough, that I have been unable to get a full size 9 that shoots a practice and carry load accurately, to the same point of impact -- causing me to carry a Glock when I carry a 9mm.
I got the Apex barrel in my hot little hands this morning, and despite 25 knots of wind, got to shoot it at 25 yards in two M&P 9mm Pro models. Between the wind, and my 25 yard sitting position, this was a pretty casual test session, but this is what I learned. I shot the following loads, 147 HST, 124+P HST, 124 +P Ranger T, Aguila 124 ball, and Blazer 147 grain TMJ. In my two M&P Pro models, this Apex barrel definitely solved the windage point of impact problem. As to accuracy, in one Pro, the prototype barrel shot comparably to my factory barrel, and in the other Pro, it shot all the loads three inches or better, something I have NEVER experienced in any M&P 9mm.
Assuming the productions barrels do as well as this prototype, and Randy thinks they will be better, I would say that help is finally on the way for M&P 9 shooters!
High Altitude
03-07-12, 18:37
So you buy a M&P9 and then call APEX and change out the trigger components and the barrel.........
Maybe APEX should just start manufacturing firearms????
High Altitude
03-07-12, 18:42
Glocks don't feel the best in my hand either, but I shoot them the best compared to other pistols. (M&P, Sig, Berreta etc....)
So this is the second time you have ever shot a glock??? Looks like you have found a new pistol.
Went out to the range today again just to make sure that it is the arrow and not the indian.
This is what M&P group looked like at 25 yards:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7186/6960382115_b53cf85a0e_b.jpg
BTW this is from a rest, there are 3 holes not 5 the other two went on the cardboard. But hey S&W says that it is within spec.
I have shot a glock once in my life it felt wrong, felt like I was holding another mans penis, I could not reach the magazine release button either. Rented a G19 for shits and giggles and shot it 25 yards offhand
Here are the results:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7177/6814269126_93260ce8c9_b.jpg 5 shot group I had one flyer but I called it.
Both of the above posts made me...
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l154/mikecleonard/ror.jpg
:D
+1 That was some funny shit guys. And dayam Glocks feel great in my hand. :shout:
Petrov, you can really shoot. Seriously shoot. You M&P is dicked up like polio man.
So you buy a M&P9 and then call APEX and change out the trigger components and the barrel.........
Maybe APEX should just start manufacturing firearms????
Well,If they ever did, I've no doubt THEIR version of a M&P would probably be a lightyear ahead of whatever S&W could do..
30 cal slut
03-07-12, 19:55
On a side note, it's good to see the M&P is pretty accurate at the distance it was designed for, no problem there...
I don't know what distance the gun was designed for, but it certainly is very accurate at minute of bad guy distances, especially with an Apex sear.
Most gunfights are within 10 feet or so, right?
When one trains and becomes more demanding of the EDC pistol, it's easy to get a little carried away with accuracy > 10 yards thing.
The M&P will get the job done, and I won't weep if mine rots in an evidence locker for a year or more.
Like Grant said, most people won't outshoot the gun at 20-25 yards.
To me testing at 7 yards only is sooo not valid that Smith should have never considered it; just think of the ridicule factor. I sense a financial and PR fiasco in the making.
Nephrology
03-07-12, 20:04
I don't know what distance the gun was designed for, but it certainly is very accurate at minute of bad guy distances, especially with an Apex sear.
Most gunfights are within 10 feet or so, right?
When one trains and becomes more demanding of the EDC pistol, it's easy to get a little carried away with accuracy > 10 yards thing.
The M&P will get the job done, and I won't weep if mine rots in an evidence locker for a year or more.
Like Grant said, most people won't outshoot the gun at 20-25 yards.
THere is pictorial evidence that that is not the case just halfway up this page.
Sure I may never have to shoot a PERSON at 25 yards, but you can bet that I shoot that distance (and further) in IPSC matches. Even some IDPA matches require 15yd shots. I want a gun that will be mechanically MORE accurate than me, not less. I do not think that there is an excuse for S&W here.
I am an avowed Glock fanboy but I do not apologize for the Gen 4. They messed up. S&W messed up with these pistols, too, and they should do everyone right and get em fixed.
30 cal slut
03-07-12, 21:59
I'm not disputing the assertions re: >10 yards, I'm fully aware of them.
Having said that, I've been in an armed confrontation before and given the distances involved, I'm confident the M&P would have been adequate for its intended use in that situation.
I have earlier M&P/9 models and am able to regularly ping 8x12 steel at 150 yards in walkback drills. Stock configuration, no enhanced sear.
I don't know what distance the gun was designed for, but it certainly is very accurate at minute of bad guy distances, especially with an Apex sear.
Most gunfights are within 10 feet or so, right?
When one trains and becomes more demanding of the EDC pistol, it's easy to get a little carried away with accuracy > 10 yards thing.
The M&P will get the job done, and I won't weep if mine rots in an evidence locker for a year or more.
Like Grant said, most people won't outshoot the gun at 20-25 yards.
I would bet every mall shooting we've had nationally involved distances in multiples of 10 yards. I don't want to just plan for the "easy" shooting because if I'm in a shooting I already lost the war of averages.
If the M&P can only do an 8" group 8" above POA at 25 yards off a rest (my results - currently at S&W) then what good is it gonna be when the bad guy is 35 yards away with most of him hiding behind cover?
30 cal slut
03-08-12, 07:24
I would bet every mall shooting we've had nationally involved distances in multiples of 10 yards. I don't want to just plan for the "easy" shooting because if I'm in a shooting I already lost the war of averages.
If the M&P can only do an 8" group 8" above POA at 25 yards off a rest (my results - currently at S&W) then what good is it gonna be when the bad guy is 35 yards away with most of him hiding behind cover?
Sure.
I think, though, that at 35 yards, even with a Glock 17 and some good training, perhaps one wouldn't attempt that shot.
If the threat is greater than 20 yards away, perhaps one would try to get a little closer to the threat for a better shot. Easier said than done, I guess.
Regardless of what you're shooting, it is possible, even likely, that flat range accuracy under stress will diminish by 50% - that's the thought process behind this.
The issue with the M&P is confidence in the platform outside of 10 yards. I have no issues with gun inside of that. If you have no choice but to carry an M&P as issued, then you just have to adjust your shooting accordingly.
The problem with the logic that you wouldn't take a shot out of "X" range is that the bad guy has a say in how/when/why/where the gun fight is going to go down too.
This includes distance.
The inconsistency of the accuracy at range makes me loose confidence in the design.
For me and my skill set, I wouldn't want to take a pistol shot past 50 yards. In a perfect world i'd have a carbine or some type of long gun. Really ideal is that I win the lottery, but you can't always have the things you want, and a gun fight is a shitty place to come up short...tactics or equipment.
There's a lot of training that tells LEOs to space their car from a traffic stop by 10-25 yards, which in reality is just a few car lengths. So needing to place accurate fire at that distance is extremely important.
Has anyone shot the Bar Sto 9mm conversion barrel for the M&P40? It's my understanding that the M&P40 and M&P45 do not have accuracy issues so I was thinking of purchasing the M&P40 and getting a conversion barrel for practice.
I wish we knew what Apex, S&W and etc. plans were so we can plan accordingly, although I understand why it's either a secret or hard to predict.
Beat Trash
03-08-12, 09:01
The problem with the logic that you wouldn't take a shot out of "X" range is that the bad guy has a say in how/when/why/where the gun fight is going to go down too.
This includes distance.
The inconsistency of the accuracy at range makes me loose confidence in the design.
There's a lot of training that tells LEOs to space their car from a traffic stop by 10-25 yards, which in reality is just a few car lengths. So needing to place accurate fire at that distance is extremely important.
Yep. Picture a Crown Vic stopping a Crown Vic. Space your car no closer than where you can still see the license plate of the target vehicle over the hood of your car. About 5yds or so at minimum between cars, plus about 1.5-2 car lengths. IF stopping a Semi truck you could quickly be close to 50 yd shots.
While you most likely won't need to engage a suspect at distance, it would be nice for your gun to possess the mechanical accuracy, just because.
The thing that really aggravates me about the accuracy issue with the 9mm M&P past 10 yds is that the platform has the ability to be an accurate pistol.
My agency transitioned to the 9mm M&P when they first came out. The first 1,200 9mm's were sent to us as they came off of the assembly line. These older guns are accurate at distance. The limiting factor with accuracy past 15 yds is the shooter, not the guns.
The design of the gun is not an issue. Somewhere along the process, something changed. Considering it appears to be intermittent and not occurring in every gun produced makes me wonder if it's an issue of tolerance stacking, combined with a change in spec's for a part.
I strongly feel the M&P design is responsible for saving S&W when it first came out. They had all but lost the LE market to Glock prior to the existence of the M&P. You would think that the Corporate entity that makes up S&W would be trying to move heaven and earth to save the reputation the M&P has built up. But it would appear they truly don't give a sh*t.
30 cal slut
03-08-12, 09:06
Hopefully SWHC will heed end-user input.
Certainly, the lapse in QC on the newer run of 9mm models is something to be concerned about.
Maybe cranking these out for the LE market at current production rates wasn't such a good idea.
I do give them props for having decent customer service.
G34Shooter
03-08-12, 11:24
Has anyone shot the Bar Sto 9mm conversion barrel for the M&P40? It's my understanding that the M&P40 and M&P45 do not have accuracy issues so I was thinking of purchasing the M&P40 and getting a conversion barrel for practice.
I wish we knew what Apex, S&W and etc. plans were so we can plan accordingly, although I understand why it's either a secret or hard to predict.
There is no such thing, you're thinking of Storm Lake or KKM.
I have the KKM 9mm barrel. From what I understand the problem is limited to 9mm M&P's for the most part.
The KKM barrel did not improve anything.
There is no such thing, you're thinking of Storm Lake or KKM.
Whoops. My bad. You are correct. I meant to say Storm Lake. I didn't even know KKM made a conversion barrel.
I have the KKM 9mm barrel. From what I understand the problem is limited to 9mm M&P's for the most part.
The KKM barrel did not improve anything.
So if you purchase an M&P40 with a 9mm conversion barrel, the accuracy issues are not there? Only if you purchase an M&P9 to begin with will there possibly be accuracy issues? Am I understanding you correctly? Sorry if I am misunderstanding.
So if you purchase an M&P40 with a 9mm conversion barrel, the accuracy issues are not there? Only if you purchase an M&P9 to begin with will there possibly be accuracy issues? Am I understanding you correctly? Sorry if I am misunderstanding.
I believe someone here measure the external dementions of the 9mm and 40 SW and they are identical. This was disappointing to me as I had originally planned to get a 40 and 9mm barrel for IDPA and practice. From what has been discussed here and in other threads it seems there is a timing problem related to the barrel lug geometry.
I really like the platform but I'm seriously considering a 45 until they get this ironed out.
I believe someone here measure the external dementions of the 9mm and 40 SW and they are identical. This was disappointing to me as I had originally planned to get a 40 and 9mm barrel for IDPA and practice. From what has been discussed here and in other threads it seems there is a timing problem related to the barrel lug geometry.
I really like the platform but I'm seriously considering a 45 until they get this ironed out.
I believe there are differences between the two barrels, which is why you need a conversion barrel to convert an M&P40 to M&P9 and cannot just stick a factory 9mm barrel into the M&P40. I presume it is in the area of lock or hood, but I don't know for certain.
Would really like to hear from owners of M&P40 who have 9mm conversion barrels whether they have accuracy issues with either barrel (stock 40S&W or 9mm conversion) and which conversion barrel they own (Storm Lake or KKM).
I believe there are differences between the two barrels, which is why you need a conversion barrel to convert an M&P40 to M&P9 and cannot just stick a factory 9mm barrel into the M&P40. I presume it is in the area of lock or hood, but I don't know for certain.
Would really like to hear from owners of M&P40 who have 9mm conversion barrels whether they have accuracy issues with either barrel (stock 40S&W or 9mm conversion) and which conversion barrel they own (Storm Lake or KKM).
Do a search on forum
I'm pretty sure someone commented on this
Do a search on forum
I'm pretty sure someone commented on this
Ah, ran a search and someone did simply swap barrels instead of using a conversion. Interesting. But, if that's the case, why is the accuracy issue limited to M&P9 and does not also affect M&P40?
Is there a list of serial # range that's been compiled on this issue?
Is there a list of serial # range that's been compiled on this issue?
No, because it's a random issue...some shoot well, others don't, serial# ranges don't matter..
Is there a list of serial # range that's been compiled on this issue?
As Ralph stated, it is 100% random.
I have a VERY old M&P 9mm. Mine shoots 6-8" groups at 25. I have a friend that just picked up a new gun and it shoot 3" groups at 25.
C4
Ah, ran a search and someone did simply swap barrels instead of using a conversion. Interesting. But, if that's the case, why is the accuracy issue limited to M&P9 and does not also affect M&P40?
Different loads with different bullets have different physics to deal with.
sniperfrog
03-12-12, 16:39
I tested my M&P9 today at 15 yards. Using some ICC frangible I was able to shoot 10 shot groups around 1.5 inches. So I'm thinking that's not too bad.
Then I shot some Speer Gold Dot 124 +P. Point of impact was about 2 inches higher and I was getting about a 3-4 inch group. Again, distance was 15 yards. Now it could be me so I need to get someone else to shoot it.
I would have a few good shots and then a flyer that would open the group up considerably. It only did this with the Speer.
I have an M&P40 with a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel that I need to try out in the same way.
I ordered a locking block from Brownells since Randy from Apex mentioned that could be the issue. If I can't get any better groups I'll try swapping it out and see what happens.
Quick update, on another forum some one suggested a name of a certain CS rep that is good. I emailed that person, they said they will test fire it at 25 yards. Sent that person the info on my M&P.
Can you give us this name so those of us that are also having accuracy issues can get in contact with him?
25yd, M&P9FS of May 2010 manufacture, unsupported offhand, using Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. Called the one @ 6 o'clock because some rude jackhole decided to tap me on the shoulder right before the 4th shot broke...:angry: Freaking assclowns.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/738/mpfs25ydspeergd124grp.jpg
Including the called shot:
Elevation component
2.90
3.87
2.39
5.10
5.67
5.56
5.69
3.30
2.81
3.72
Windage component
3.10
1.89
3.41
2.96
0.86
2.17
3.23
3.09
2.37
2.308
Radii
3.79
1.34
1.42
0.76
2.39
1.45
1.44
1.98
2.06
2.20
Mean Radius = 1.883"
EDIT: Mean center of the group lies 1.1" to 10:30 from center of X.
Just to add my one unscientific data point. What was really strange to me was the variance between similar types of practice ammo of the same weight.
I shot four types of inexpensive 115 grain practice ammo offhand through my brand new M&P9 FS. Each type shot less than 2" at 15 yards. I then shot each type three times at 25 yards from the bench, wrists resting on two soft gun rugs, gun not touching anything.
UMC Yellow Box: Avg 5 1/2" (5", 6 1/2", 5")
Fed Champion: Avg 6 1/2" (8", 6 1/2", 5")
Win White Box: Avg 3" (2 1/8", 3", 3 3/4")
Fed American Eagle: Avg 5 3/4" (6", 4 3/4", 6 1/2")
As a quasi-control, I shot three 25 yard groups of the WWB with my Glock 34, with an average of 2 1/2" (2 3/4", 2", 2 3/4").
I'm sure this says more about my shooting than the guns, but I thought it was interesting. Also, it tells me that if your gun won't shoot with one type of cheap bulk ammo of the weight you like, try a few more.
varoadking
03-13-12, 04:26
25yd, M&P9FS of May 2010 manufacture, unsupported offhand, using Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. Called the one @ 6 o'clock because some rude jackhole decided to tap me on the shoulder right before the 4th shot broke...:angry: Freaking assclowns.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/738/mpfs25ydspeergd124grp.jpg
Including the called shot:
Elevation component
2.90
3.87
2.39
5.10
5.67
5.56
5.69
3.30
2.81
3.72
Windage component
3.10
1.89
3.41
2.96
0.86
2.17
3.23
3.09
2.37
2.308
Radii
3.79
1.34
1.42
0.76
2.39
1.45
1.44
1.98
2.06
2.20
Mean Radius = 1.883"
EDIT: Mean center of the group lies 1.1" to 10:30 from center of X.
I'd have just said it shoots somewhat high and to the left... :haha:
Just to add my one unscientific data point. What was really strange to me was the variance between similar types of practice ammo of the same weight.
I shot four types of inexpensive 115 grain practice ammo offhand through my brand new M&P9 FS. Each type shot less than 2" at 15 yards. I then shot each type three times at 25 yards from the bench, wrists resting on two soft gun rugs, gun not touching anything.
UMC Yellow Box: Avg 5 1/2" (5", 6 1/2", 5")
Fed Champion: Avg 6 1/2" (8", 6 1/2", 5")
Win White Box: Avg 3" (2 1/8", 3", 3 3/4")
Fed American Eagle: Avg 5 3/4" (6", 4 3/4", 6 1/2")
As a quasi-control, I shot three 25 yard groups of the WWB with my Glock 34, with an average of 2 1/2" (2 3/4", 2", 2 3/4").
I'm sure this says more about my shooting than the guns, but I thought it was interesting. Also, it tells me that if your gun won't shoot with one type of cheap bulk ammo of the weight you like, try a few more.
Of my M&P 9's that "shoot," this is typical, in that they will often shoot just one or two loads well, shoot many other loads poorly, and have quite different points of impact between the various loads. It can be difficult finding a carry and practice load that both shoot decently and to the same point of impact. When you do, there is little rhyme or reason, between what grain load shoots, although lately I have seen that Ranger 124 +P T, has done well in a few of my M&P's. Since I have a few M&P 9's, I keep records as to what loads shoots in what pistol.
....lately I have seen that Ranger 124 +P T, has done well in a few of my M&P's. Since I have a few M&P 9's, I keep records as to what loads shoots in what pistol.
In my efforts the M&P I am calling #2 shot this load to 1.98" groups with the Storm Lake barrel installed.
G34Shooter
03-13-12, 10:22
Ranger-T 124gr +P has always performed well with both my FS9 and 9c as well as my Glocks. I want to try the same load in HST which seems to shoot really well per ToddG's tests.
In addition to the early unlocking challenge, Randy Lee and many other shooters have questions the rifling twist rate choice in the M&P. If a particular barrel is not properly stabilizing the bullets, or certain weights or designs to one degree or another, I would expect that problem to amplify effects quickly as the range increases.
Might explain how 2" at 15 yards rapidly turns to 6" at 25?
In addition to the early unlocking challenge, Randy Lee and many other shooters have questions the rifling twist rate choice in the M&P. If a particular barrel is not properly stabilizing the bullets, or certain weights or designs to one degree or another, I would expect that problem to amplify effects quickly as the range increases.
Might explain how 2" at 15 yards rapidly turns to 6" at 25?
This is why I'm curious to see if users with Storm Lake barrels see any better results (independent of bullet weight).
As Ralph stated, it is 100% random.
I have a VERY old M&P 9mm. Mine shoots 6-8" groups at 25. I have a friend that just picked up a new gun and it shoot 3" groups at 25.
C4
So, the reality is that in order to find if you got a good one, you have to shoot it, and if you shoot and find out you didn't get a good one, it's too late, because you shot it. Is that about right?
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