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View Full Version : FULL- 2008 Vickers Tactical Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Level II Pistol/Carbine



VA_Dinger
12-18-07, 15:32
FYI: This class is now full pending everybody mails in there deposit & forms in a timely manner.

I will be starting a waiting list if anybody would like 1st shot at any potential open seats. You will have to be Vickers Tactical LL Level 1 class grad to attend. Please feel free to contact me if you meet these prerequisites.

2008 Vickers Tactical Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Level II 3-Day Pistol/Carbine Class


This class is the next step in Vickers Tactical low light training and builds upon the skills taught in the level I class.

Class Dates: November 6-8, 2008 (Thursday, Friday, and Saturday).

Primary Instructors: Ken Hackathorn & Larry Vickers

Assistant Instructors: TBD

Cost: $1000

Class Size: 16 Students Maximum

Location: Marietta, Ohio

Class description:

- 3 nights of night fire

- Night #1: Review, dry runs, range fire, ETC.

- Night #2: Shoot House

- Night #3: Shoot House * different scenarios than night #2

- Both Mr. Hackathorn & Mr. Vickers will be instructing in the shoot house for both nights.
- Shooters on deck for the shoot house will be put through a series of night fire drills by our A.I.'s on adjoining ranges

Weapon & Gear Requirements:

Carbine:
- Serviceable duty grade carbine of minimum 5.45 / 5.56 caliber
- Serviceable sling (tactical type preferred.)
- Minimum of 5 serviceable carbine magazines
- Carbine mounted white light
- Optics – (Optional, but highly suggested)
- Minimum 1 carbine magazine pouch - or method to carry spares magazine(s)

Handgun:
- Serviceable duty grade handgun of at least 9mm Para caliber
- Minimum of 5 serviceable pistol magazines
- Serviceable holster
- Minimum 2 pistol magazine pouches
- Handgun mounted white light (Optional)
- Visible lasers (Optional)

Misc. Requirements:
- Hand held white light
- Eye and ear protection (electronic hearing protection is preferred)
- Suitable range wear depending on the season (Ohio weather could be warm or cold/wet or dry - be prepared)
- Good attitude

Zeroed Weapons: 100-yard carbine preferred, but others are acceptable if you have a good reason why and understand it. Know your handguns zero at various ranges.

Ammo Requirements:
- 600 rounds of handgun
- 600 rounds of carbine


Class prerequisites: Graduate of Vickers Tactical Low Light Level I course or be approved by Vickers Tactical. Please have a copy of your training resume ready to submit during class registration.

Payment & Deposit Policy:
$330 deposit (1/3 total price for class) is required during class registration.

Class Registration:
A class registration form will be provided during the sign-up process. This forum must be completely filled out (legible) and received back to me (with your training resume & deposit) before you are guaranteed a seat in the class.

Contact Information:
Please contact me via M4C PM or email or through the Vickers Tactical website.

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 16:18
Awesome.....I was hoping they would do another LL class!

I'm in. I'll get my deposit in hopefully by Jan 31.

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 16:19
I am in!



C4

TOrrock
12-18-07, 16:34
In.

Absolutely in.

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 16:39
In.

Absolutely in.


Hmmm. Maybe I am not in. :cool:



C4

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 16:53
And this time I'm bringing all PMags.

I'm not going to lose another drill to Zef because my friggin' mag takes a dump on me.

KevinB
12-18-07, 18:04
Hey I'm in

I am sure HoserA will be in as well -- and this time we will show up properly equipt.

I'm really looking forward to it --

cfrazier
12-18-07, 18:10
I'm in and will see you guys there will have deposit by 1-31-08

NCPatrolAR
12-18-07, 18:15
I'm in..... and I'll have all new blooming onion stories to tell. I'll also be running an AR this time around. :D

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 18:19
I'm in..... and I'll have all new blooming onion stories to tell. I'll also be running an AR this time around. :D

I'll be wearing ear plugs under my earmuffs this time....

Jay Cunningham
12-18-07, 18:33
You better F'ing believe I'm in.

I suspect I'll shoot an AR this time as well, and probably my M&P45.

At least this makes it a lot easier to pick my vacation schedule...

Eric Rice
12-18-07, 18:33
Count me in fellas...

NCPatrolAR
12-18-07, 18:40
Are we going to be doing carbine work inside the house this time? Also; are the FBs going to be better this time around?

VA_Dinger
12-18-07, 19:42
Hey I'm in

I am sure HoserA will be in as well -- and this time we will show up properly equipt.

I'm really looking forward to it --

Kevin, can you PM me HoserA's email address?

I cannot find it.

Thanks

abnartyguy
12-18-07, 19:51
Sounds like lots of fun, can't wait!!!

Sign me up!

-Zef M.
:cool:

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 19:55
Are we going to be doing carbine work inside the house this time? Also; are the FBs going to be better this time around?

I've been staring at that post for five minutes trying to figure out what an FB is....

At this rate 16 seats might not be enough to meet demand....

Vinh
12-18-07, 19:55
I would like to sign up. Thanks!

dubb-1
12-18-07, 20:10
Paul, please count me in. '08 is MY year!

Jay Cunningham
12-18-07, 20:11
I've been staring at that post for five minutes trying to figure out what an FB is....

At this rate 16 seats might not be enough to meet demand....

Personally, I think 2 relays of 8 is a really good size.

I don't know what an FB is either but I hope at least there are some hotter women at the Holiday Inn lounge...

ErikL
12-18-07, 20:17
I'm in.

M4arc
12-18-07, 20:45
I'm not in but was wondering if Larry & Ken will run a Level I LL class in '08?

the1911fan
12-18-07, 20:49
I'm not in but was wondering if Larry & Ken will run a Level I LL class in '08?

Good question...Hope so..I'd be up for going through level I LL again.

PLCedeno
12-18-07, 21:10
Im in. Good question regarding the carbines inside the shoot house.

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 21:32
I'm in..... and I'll have all new blooming onion stories to tell. I'll also be running an AR this time around. :D

Weren't you the guy that had the tab that said; "I love your mom?" :D



C4

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 21:36
I'm in.

Your only allowed in if you promise that there will be no more hugging.



C4

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 21:39
Weren't you the guy that had the tab that said; "I love your mom?" :D


You missed his shirt on day two.

"I learned from lesbians."

NCPatrolAR
12-18-07, 21:41
Weren't you the guy that had the tab that said; "I love your mom?" :D



C4

Yep, that was me.



JW - "FB" as in flashbang. I was just going to put bang, but thought it would come across wrong

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 21:42
Im in. Good question regarding the carbines inside the shoot house.


I don't think carbines can be allowed in the shoot house.



C4

C4IGrant
12-18-07, 21:43
You missed his shirt on day two.

"I learned from lesbians."



Hmm, sorry I missed that one.


C4

NCPatrolAR
12-18-07, 21:45
I don't think carbines can be allowed in the shoot house.



C4


That is what I was thinking. I'm going to take my 9mm AR along though and maybe do some runs with it.

John_Wayne777
12-18-07, 22:03
JW - "FB" as in flashbang. I was just going to put bang, but thought it would come across wrong

Well now I feel stupid....

I should have known that.

FJB
12-18-07, 22:38
I don't think carbines can be allowed in the shoot house.



C4

Grant,
I am in as well. I'll bring lots of toys for everyone to use. We could use carbines if all of the shooters brought frangible. They don't run quite as reliably, but will work well if it is a low round count.

S/F

Jay Cunningham
12-19-07, 00:26
Grant,
I am in as well. I'll bring lots of toys for everyone to use. We could use carbines if all of the shooters brought frangible. They don't run quite as reliably, but will work well if it is a low round count.

S/F

I would be willing to spend some $ka-ching$ on frang if we could shoot carbines in the house. Something to consider...

John_Wayne777
12-19-07, 07:12
Same here. I'll bite the bullet and buy frangible if it opens up training possibilities for us.

ffhounddog
12-19-07, 07:37
The thing I hate about all these classes they say no reloads and I reload my own ammo. I know my ammo better than the people buying cases because they funtion. Lets buy cases of the AMERC see I have factory fresh ammo but it does not fire.

C4IGrant
12-19-07, 08:01
Grant,
I am in as well. I'll bring lots of toys for everyone to use. We could use carbines if all of the shooters brought frangible. They don't run quite as reliably, but will work well if it is a low round count.

S/F


Cool! I have an account with a large Frang. ammo company and could buy pallets of it to use in the class. This would help bring the cost down for everyone (if we wanted to use it).



C4

C4IGrant
12-19-07, 08:02
The thing I hate about all these classes they say no reloads and I reload my own ammo. I know my ammo better than the people buying cases because they funtion. Lets buy cases of the AMERC see I have factory fresh ammo but it does not fire.

I think the concern with reloads is that you bought them from someone else and they are of unknown quality.

I would talke to Dinger about it if you wanted to come.



C4

PLCedeno
12-19-07, 08:09
i would buy some.

ffhounddog
12-19-07, 08:13
I understand. I want to go and have been wanting to take one of these classes for awhile. I need to talk with my wife because she wants to do a Surez International Course because we know one of the Instructors.

Sorry I just see this everywhere of no reloads and one of the reasons I reload is to shoot more and be in control of the powders and velocities.

Sorry about the Thread Hijack.

I would buy some Frag stuff.

ICC sells frag stuff around me.

stony275
12-19-07, 09:42
Between this class, Larry's 3 day pistol class in Canton and the 1911 pistol smithing class I'm going to have to work an additional month in Iraq to pay for all of this.

Oh well, it's better to spend money on this than cheating girlfriends.

dubb-1
12-19-07, 09:44
Damn straight, Stony!

NCPatrolAR
12-19-07, 10:24
I'd fork over some green for frang to run in the house.

cfrazier
12-19-07, 10:57
I'LL THROW IN FOR SOME FRAG

VA_Dinger
12-19-07, 12:01
Update I:

I’m going through the replies & emails today to determine who replied in what order.

Seats will be filled using THREE factors:
(1.) Level I grad?
(2.) Numerical order in that replies & emails were received.
(3.) Numerical order in which deposits & sign-up forms are received back.

It's the only way to be fair.

Everybody else will go to the stand-by list for now.

BUT, let me just say that I have NEVER organized a class in which the stand-by list was not used. I will absolutely guarantee that at least 3-5 guys off the stand-by list will make into the class. At least a few will have something come up that forces them to miss the class whether it be work, family, illness, ETC. So please do not let being on the stand-by list bother you. I assure you it will most likely only be temporary.

VA_Dinger
12-19-07, 12:09
Update II:

(1.) Ken is going to check out the shot traps today to see if 5.56mm frangible is an option. I will let you know.

If not, we plan on having more 9mm carbines available for the shoot house as a fall back option.

(2.) The ammo requirements for the class have been dropped down to 600 each. Due to the precise nature of this class it is not going to be a high round count class.

(3.) My mention of the "classroom" portion in the original class post has been edited out. Everything is going to be handled at the range.

VA_Dinger
12-19-07, 12:16
I'm not in but was wondering if Larry & Ken will run a Level I LL class in '08?

A 2008 level I class is being looked into right now.

I suspect VT will hold one in 2008. Ken & Larry just need to work out the dates.

I will post more when I know the details.

Doc Solo
12-19-07, 15:24
I'm in, deposit info?

VA_Dinger
12-19-07, 23:12
OK, the 1st sixteen guys to contact me got sent the registration & deposit/payment information via email.

Everybody else who contacted me went on the stand-by list.

If anybody else would like there name added to this list please contact me.

John_Wayne777
12-20-07, 09:14
I believe it is a testament to the students' opinion of the Low Light I class that in less than 24 hours Low Light II has a full roster....

abnartyguy
12-21-07, 16:04
Gent,
Mailed Reg form and check yesterday, can't wait to see what they have cooked up this time. No problem if we can only shoot pistol, I've got a 9mm AR! later!
-Zef M.

PLCedeno
12-23-07, 18:04
Any word on use of frangible ammo? I want to give Grant more money.

VA_Dinger
12-23-07, 19:49
Any word on use of frangible ammo? I want to give Grant more money.

No, I forgot to ask.

Give me another 72 hours and I'll post up the info.

Jay Cunningham
12-24-07, 07:09
Deposit and info sent.

sjauch
12-24-07, 07:37
Can we blow something up in this class??

Derek_Connor
12-24-07, 08:15
Is there another level 1 class coming up for 2008?

Sent you an Email VA_Dinger

John_Wayne777
12-24-07, 09:44
Is there another level 1 class coming up for 2008?

Sent you an Email VA_Dinger

Yup.

Look here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9878

PLCedeno
12-24-07, 09:52
Deposit and info on its way.

KevinB
12-24-07, 11:06
I ran frang (AA40) at the last Low Light - I wanted to run it in the house, but they where unsure at the time.

I had one stoppage on the course -- the poorly crimped round of AA40 that seized up my 11.5 SR16 upper, and forced me to the 416.

HoserA had some accuracy issues with the Colt he had as it had a 1:9 bbl, (he had found out his Hk416 does not like the hammer he had).

Due to the lenght of Frang it needs a 1:7 bbl for anything past 7m

NCPatrolAR
12-24-07, 18:59
Due to the lenght of Frang it needs a 1:7 bbl for anything past 7m


Hmmm, looks like I might be sticking with the 9mm AR then.

KevinB
12-25-07, 11:57
One of us with 4million AR's could bring you a 1:7...;)

VA_Dinger
12-27-07, 14:34
Is there another level 1 class coming up for 2008?

Sent you an Email VA_Dinger


Got it.

The Level I class is filling up nicely.

VA_Dinger
01-13-08, 18:01
Any word on use of frangible ammo?

Negative on the 5.56mm frangible in the shoot house.

- Pistol caliber carbines only as usual for all the 2008 classes. You can bring your own if you want, but more than enough loaners will be available. Same goes for body armour.

Jay Cunningham
01-13-08, 18:44
Gives me an excuse to buy a 9mm AR.

Like I really needed one.

;)

John_Wayne777
01-29-08, 10:03
Deposit sent and my reg form is on it's way to Dinger's house. I can't wait for this class!

cfrazier
01-29-08, 10:45
Deposit sent to LAV and registration form sent to Dinger

John_Wayne777
01-29-08, 11:18
It'll be good to get back on the range with you, bro! :D

...by the way...my offer to relieve you of the burden of any un-needed brand new body armor still stands.....

...'cuz I'm generous like that.

cfrazier
01-29-08, 17:22
Good to be on the range with you also that body armory isn't new any more. SORRY

VA_Dinger
02-26-08, 10:19
FYI: A few guys still need to get their deposits & registration forms mailed out to me.

Please contact me if you have not done so already.

dhrith
02-26-08, 15:19
Guilty, been hell past two weeks getting moved to afternoons and truck transmission going out, unexpected $1100 bill and scrambling for rideage. Had it in my bag past three days trying to find time to get in to the post office to next day mail it. boggle- If I'd just chucked it in the mail it'd be there by now. Soon as i get done typing I'll get it out, fill it out and drop it in the mail on lunch or on the way home tonight. Thanks for your patience.

30 cal slut
05-13-08, 18:44
if there is a waitlist, i'd like to be added to it, please. understand you're already chock full.

thanks.

-slut

VA_Dinger
06-04-08, 09:50
if there is a waitlist, i'd like to be added to it, please. understand you're already chock full.

thanks.

-slut

Yes, at the moment this class is still full with a waiting list.

I will go ahead and place your name on the list also.

cfrazier
09-04-08, 23:45
Dinger,
Just checking to see if you received payment.

FJB
09-13-08, 10:27
For those attending the LLI & LLII classes a very viable option for running your carbine in the shoot house and one that I recommend and intend to use for LLII if my schedule still permits is a Tactical Solutions .22LR M4 Upper with 27 rnd Blackdog Magazines. G&R Tactical sells these as well. Grant has posted a thread in AR Discussion about these uppers.

For the price of 1500 rounds of 5.56 you can purchase a Tac-Sol .22LR M4 Upper with 4 or so magazines (I recommend at least 6 to 8 magazines) and 1500 rounds of bulk pack .22LR. After that it is all $$ in your pocket every time you press the trigger.

I recently ran mine in a Trident Concepts Carbine Operators Course as a proof of concept and shot over 1,000 rnds through it in three days. The COC round count is usually 2400 to 2500 rnds in three days, with every shot accounted for, however I was only able to play for half of each day. I have trained with Jeff Gonzales (former SEAL) before and he allowed me to do so in order to test the Tac-Sol upper in a school environment. As an aside if you haven't trained with Jeff Gonzales you need to move him to the top of your list. He is a superb instructor and the repetition provided during each of the drills significantly increases your skill level. Like LAV, Jeff is a stickler for accuracy, but Jeff helps you focus on that point via positive reinforcement through physical pain if you fail.

Back on point is the Tac-Sol upper ran very well.

It is particular regarding ammo. Neither Remington .22LR lead or brass plated works well with it. I have had case head separation with Remington brass plated. I have found that Federal .22LR Copper plated bulk pack works the best, which is actually cheaper anyway where I live.

Recommend you clean the bore, bolt and breach face every 300 - 400 rounds or so for best performance, ie. clean it before you start the morning training and clean it during lunch. It only takes 10 minutes. Unlike a standard M4 it doesn't work better wet/well lubed. Better to apply a very light coat only on bearing surfaces after cleaning and only lube again after each cleaning.

Anyway, thought I would pass this info along for those still trying to figure a solution for the shoot house.

S/F

VA_Dinger
09-18-08, 10:24
FYI: Payment reminder emails will be going out to everybody tonight.

VA_Dinger
09-21-08, 07:48
OK, I got the payment reminder email sent out this morning.

If anybody has any questions please feel free to contact me.

KevinB
09-21-08, 11:38
Got the email.


My leave ends 31 Oct (starts 6 Oct) still trying to decide if I will resign at this point or ride out the rest of my contract till Dec.

I had planned on returning 15 Nov - but that was not apparently to be.


Trying to work through this.

John_Wayne777
09-29-08, 20:34
I just sent Mr. Vickers my full payment info. Once he pushes the magic buttons I should be ready to rock.

VA_Dinger
09-29-08, 20:35
10-4 guys, thanks for the heads up.

KevinB
09-30-08, 13:20
I will email you and LAV in the next few days - I am about 90% sure I will be there.


Sorry for the late screw arounds - I am trying to find a job outside Iraq ;)

I have the ANVIS for LAV for one of his 1911's, and tution (I think we worked that out).

Go figure my Nighthawk 10-8 and VT guns came into Canada - only 18months after I ordered them and 12 months after I thought I cancelled them...
Now to move them back south.


You going to be there this time Dinger?

VA_Dinger
09-30-08, 19:09
You going to be there this time Dinger?

Oh yes.

My new job has made things much easier.

stony275
10-01-08, 00:17
Got the email.


My leave ends 31 Oct (starts 6 Oct) still trying to decide if I will resign at this point or ride out the rest of my contract till Dec.

I had planned on returning 15 Nov - but that was not apparently to be.


Trying to work through this.


I feel your pain brother. I had to trade leave slots with a team mate to ensure I would be in the USA for the course. Now I have to do the same thing to make sure I'm back in May for the pistol smithing class.

KevinB
10-01-08, 12:57
Hmm pistolsmithing class ...

damn I need to find a real job to pay for all this stuff...

C4IGrant
10-09-08, 11:04
This is getting close! Guess I should go out and buy a flashlight or something.


C4

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 11:16
This is getting close! Guess I should go out and buy a flashlight or something.


C4

More like pick your favorite three out of a pile of 50!

:D

C4IGrant
10-09-08, 11:25
More like pick your favorite three out of a pile of 50!

:D

Oh that's right! I am a SF dealer. Hmmm which $400 dollar flashlight should I bring this time. :D



C4

stony275
10-09-08, 11:53
Oh that's right! I am a SF dealer. Hmmm which $400 dollar flashlight should I bring this time. :D



C4

No one likes a show off.


Unless he lets you fondle his high CDI gear.

Jay Cunningham
10-09-08, 17:00
No one likes a show off.


Unless he lets you fondle his high CDI gear.

One of the cool things about the LL class last year was that there was a whole bunch of CDI gear and lots of chances to try it out.

Freddie Blish from Aimpoint was more than happy to loan out stuff.

John_Wayne777
10-09-08, 21:58
One of the cool things about the LL class last year was that there was a whole bunch of CDI gear and lots of chances to try it out.

Freddie Blish from Aimpoint was more than happy to loan out stuff.

Yeah, but he made you give it back.

Once I took the PVS-14 off of my rifle it just looked so......naked........

KevinB
10-11-08, 05:57
Yeah Freddie made a lot of T1 converts - I wanted to walk off with it still on the 416, but he was sharp.

dont know if BigRed has talked to LAV - but we both intend to be here for this.

-Kev

FJB
10-14-08, 01:07
Kev,
Well if you and Big Red are going to be there I guess I'll have to figure out a way to make it sure this fits into my schedule. Can't let the Canooks have all that fun by themselves! Plus, I'll bring some more Aimpoint sights for people to try.

S/F

ToddG
10-14-08, 09:06
I spent this weekend in OH with Ken and some other friends, and we did a bit of low-light shooting on both the square range and in the shoot house. You guys are in for a seriously fun and educational few days ...

KevinB
10-29-08, 16:31
See you guys next week...

C4IGrant
10-29-08, 16:44
See you guys next week...


Ready to get kicked out of the bar, errr Library again? ;)



C4

Jay Cunningham
10-29-08, 16:48
Ready to get kicked out of the bar, errr Library again? ;)



C4

lol

I am sure they are looking forward to hugs from Erik.

C4IGrant
10-29-08, 16:57
lol

I am sure they are looking forward to hugs from Erik.



Mmmmmm Man LUV.

http://images.cafepress.com/product/73290002v12_350x350_Front.jpg




C4

KevinB
10-29-08, 18:33
Erik kinda looks like one of those Dino's too

VA_Dinger
10-29-08, 19:33
FYI: The class start time & meeting place info will be sent out to everybody tonight.

If you do not receive it by morning please let me know.

John_Wayne777
10-30-08, 06:56
I didn't get anything last night....

stony275
10-30-08, 09:00
I didn't get anything last night....

Ditto

cfrazier
10-30-08, 10:21
ditto

TOrrock
10-30-08, 10:28
Dinger needs to quit looking at porn and get back on the ball......:o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/PornKing.jpg

KevinB
10-30-08, 10:58
Ditto...


Grant - will you be there for all of it? (as in do I need to swing by for ammo - or get it at the meet?)

Paul -- you are coming and I dont need to meet Tim in a dark alley again right?


My HH6 will be in attendance - looks like BigRed will not. Ramp down the beer and feastivities a bit, however we can get pics taken from the catwalk etc.

John_Wayne777
10-30-08, 11:56
Dear God, no....no more pictures.

You can't trust the ****ers on this site with pictures.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/tip.jpg

I guess I should look on the bright side....at least I'm not snuggling with a bunny or anything....

C4IGrant
10-30-08, 12:01
Ditto...


Grant - will you be there for all of it? (as in do I need to swing by for ammo - or get it at the meet?)

Paul -- you are coming and I dont need to meet Tim in a dark alley again right?


My HH6 will be in attendance - looks like BigRed will not. Ramp down the beer and feastivities a bit, however we can get pics taken from the catwalk etc.

I can bring your ammo.


C4

C4IGrant
10-30-08, 12:02
Dear God, no....no more pictures.

You can't trust the ****ers on this site with pictures.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/tip.jpg

I guess I should look on the bright side....at least I'm not snuggling with a bunny or anything....


Ya, we tend to photoshop/distort some pics around here. You might want to be camera shy during this class as I believed it will get ugly. :D



C4

VA_Dinger
10-30-08, 19:12
Damn, rough crowd. :D

The email just went out.

TOrrock
10-30-08, 19:23
Just got the email.

In the first post in this thread, a 50 yard zero was called for.

In the email, it's calling for 100 yd. zero.

So, Mr. Man, which is it??

Jay Cunningham
10-30-08, 19:32
Just got the email.

In the first post in this thread, a 50 yard zero was called for.

In the email, it's calling for 100 yd. zero.

So, Mr. Man, which is it??

You know the ultimate zero is 100m!

VA_Dinger
10-30-08, 19:37
Just got the email.

In the first post in this thread, a 50 yard zero was called for.

In the email, it's calling for 100 yd. zero.

So, Mr. Man, which is it??

:D

Your killing me.

LAV prefers the 100 yard zero, but you can zero your weapon any way you prefer as long as you have a good reason why and understand it. I just missed editing this class description a month or so ago.

NCPatrolAR
10-30-08, 20:53
:D

Your killing me.

You're

;)

C4IGrant
10-31-08, 08:51
You're

;)


Now you know Dinger can barely read so don't ride him about his spelln.


C4

C4IGrant
10-31-08, 08:52
Just got the email.

In the first post in this thread, a 50 yard zero was called for.

In the email, it's calling for 100 yd. zero.

So, Mr. Man, which is it??

I am going with a 23yd zero just to piss everyone off. :eek:



C4

John_Wayne777
10-31-08, 11:07
Damn....FJB won't be able to make this one.

You'll be sorely missed, sir.

Jay Cunningham
10-31-08, 11:14
Damn....FJB won't be able to make this one.

You'll be sorely missed, sir.

You just wanted that night vision optic.

FJB will indeed be missed - good guy representing an exceptional product line; hard, experienced shooter as well.

VA_Dinger
11-01-08, 07:46
How is the weather going to be for next week?

C4IGrant
11-01-08, 08:26
How is the weather going to be for next week?


Thursday looks great, but Fri and Sat are going to be in the low 30's at night. There is also a chance or rain Friday! just the way I like it.


C4

John_Wayne777
11-01-08, 15:20
Grant:

Would it be possible for you to bring me 4 more M&P 17 round 9mm mags at the course, or would you prefer to stick to using the e-store?

C4IGrant
11-01-08, 17:04
Grant:

Would it be possible for you to bring me 4 more M&P 17 round 9mm mags at the course, or would you prefer to stick to using the e-store?

If I have any in stock, I will bring them down. As of right now, I am out.


C4

TOrrock
11-01-08, 17:22
Tim, I can bring you some M&P mags to loan to you.

John_Wayne777
11-01-08, 18:33
Thanks for the offer, but I've got enough mags for the course. I was just thinking that I ought to pick some more up while I had the chance. Figures that when the thought hits me Grant's out of them.

That's what I get for blabbing about G&R having them in stock for 25 bucks to a bunch of people at ARFCOM.

ErikL
11-01-08, 22:33
Does anyone know if out friend from across the pond is going to be there? I was going to burn some Night Rider episodes to DVD...and perhaps even Dodgeball for him.

Jay Cunningham
11-01-08, 22:41
http://www.savewrko.com/blog/Sprockets.jpg

Now is the time on Sprockets vhen ve dance!

cfrazier
11-01-08, 23:33
Spoke with Ken at a night shoot 2 wks ago and he advised no on Frank

KevinB
11-02-08, 20:57
Zee Chermans did not do so well with the peanut gallery

When BigRed burned him on the "making up for losing WWII" he sort of melted down -- too bad I was looking at hassling him this time too

John_Wayne777
11-02-08, 21:57
I suppose it's for the best. Less chance of some messy international incident this way....:D

TOrrock
11-03-08, 17:05
Talked with Dinger today. He's got a family emergency and won't make it.

Kevin, I'll be bringing your stuff up.

Jay Cunningham
11-03-08, 17:08
Talked with Dinger today. He's got a family emergency and won't make it.

Kevin, I'll be bringing your stuff up.

Shit.

Hope things are ok.

TOrrock
11-03-08, 17:21
His immediate family is doing fine, but he's left with watching the girls.

He has the worst luck with this stuff.

John_Wayne777
11-04-08, 12:36
Sucks to hear about Paul....

What time is everybody expecting to roll into Marietta? I'm thinking it would be nice if we could meet up for some food....

VA_Dinger
11-04-08, 18:51
My father-in-law had a stroke Sunday night so I will be unable to make it. Please have a great time in the class. I'm sure it will be a once in a lifetime quality class. It's not often guys like Ken & LAV teach a class together, not to mention the high quality A.I.'s.

Enjoy.

KevinB
11-04-08, 20:18
Damn Paul - really sorry to hear that.
Meg sends her condolences too - and says if there is anything we can do...

We will be in Marietta tomorrow --circa 3pm.

John_Wayne777
11-05-08, 16:53
Well, I'm in. Just waiting on TheKatar and Templar to show up....

KevinB
11-05-08, 22:46
Had dinner with the crew - and the shut down the bar when we had the first round.

Retired to the room with HH6 -- the rest are loose on the town.

C4IGrant
11-06-08, 07:38
Had dinner with the crew - and the shut down the bar when we had the first round.

Retired to the room with HH6 -- the rest are loose on the town.

Jeez, you got kicked out of the bar after only one drink??? :eek:

Do you think they remembered you? :D


C4

KevinB
11-06-08, 08:55
you here yet?

We are meeting at 1000 at Bob Evans for breaky..

KevinB
11-07-08, 10:18
First day went well for most -- with others some of us showed some rust.

Heavy Metal
11-07-08, 22:36
Spoke with Ken at a night shoot 2 wks ago and he advised no on Frank


Did I run into you at Deano's a couple of weeks ago?

30 cal slut
11-09-08, 17:22
tim (templar) - shoot me your e-mail addy, will try to send you one nice pic of john wayne 777 wearing a different shirt.

oh, and if anyone's wondering about an AAR -

this class was AWESOME.

BrianC
11-09-08, 19:43
I enjoyed this course too, and I'd have to say that my favorite part was shooting that fine ass Beretta Storm!!! ;)

KevinB
11-09-08, 22:24
AWESOME CLASS

Freddie - you where missed - will hit you with phone and email tomorrow.

Dinger -- you where missed as well.

30cal -- email inbound.


LAV, Ken and the support staff a very heartily well done.

Unless your the 1% of the 1% you likley will not have gotten to do some of the things that LAV and Ken had the class doing.


For those who missed it -- beg, borrow, or steal, to convince them to run another...

Heavy Metal
11-09-08, 23:08
For those who missed it -- beg, borrow, or steal, to convince them to run another...

Oh, we will, trust me, we are gonna make him crack! I might rob a 7/11 (Gay Porn? No! Unless a threefer with two hot lesbians count. Otherwise, that's as wrong as two boys ****ing.) to get bribe money.

I truly regret I missed LL1. If I had know this was the end of the line, I would have taken it. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.............

NCPatrolAR
11-10-08, 00:43
Great class. Enjoyed being able to train with Larry and Ken again while being able to shoot with the gang of the usual suspects.


Anyone notice how Kevin seems to becoming more and more domesticated with each of these classes? ;-)

stony275
11-10-08, 11:15
As per SOP, Ken and Larry did their usual outstanding job.

It was great to finally meet folks that heretofore I had only known or known of via the Internet.

I look forward to JohnWayne777's (aka TIP) AAR.

John_Wayne777
11-10-08, 11:30
I look forward to JohnWayne777's (aka TIP) AAR.

Et tu, Stony?

cfrazier
11-10-08, 13:18
Great class and group of guys. Only thing I didn't like was that damn computer and I took care of that.

Eric Rice
11-10-08, 15:10
I've just now RTB. It was a real pleasure to shoot with all involved with this class. Truly, some of the finest people I've ever had the blessing to be around - consummate professionals all.

My most sincere and heartfelt thanks go to Paul, Rodney, Joe, Sam, Tom, Lynn, Mr. Tailor and of course Ken and LAV. If I've left anyone out, I apologize.

It was nice to see many of you again, and very nice to meet the rest. Thanks for the groceries to all that pitched in, especially Megan & Kevin.

Congrats to the winner of the Omega Rail, and the other top shooters. Thanks to all those flying the DD colors as well. Please let me know if I can do anything for you.

Stony, great to team up with you again, Brother. You were sorely missed on day 3, but Joe stepped up and would have made you proud. My new call sign is hostage slayer. "What, that little guy? I wouldn't worry about that little guy."

Jay Cunningham
11-10-08, 19:42
Outstanding class in every respect - thank you Ken and LAV and all the AI's for all the instruction.

Nice to see the old faces and meet some new ones. Brian certainly has the coolest ride in North America, and Ben was a great sport despite the accusations of espionage. JW_777 (a.k.a. TIP) put up with my snoring and for that he deserves a prize.

BBQ dinner TD2 and TD3 was worth the price of admission. Thanks also to C4IGrant who paid for several meals and also was the namesake of my two man team: Team GrantHawk.

Missed Dinger and FJB.

I learned that while an amazingly versatile optic, the S&B Short Dot would not be my first choice for low light CQB. It can get the job done, however, if need be. I also decided to go back to a DG switch on my Glock to activate my X200B. A laser on a J-frame is a no-brainer, but I am beginning to wonder if I really want one on my Glock. First time I ran with a war belt and I was overall quite pleased. Lots of other lessons learned.

Kevin, your wife is a good catch!

Thanks to all involved in making this class happen for the opportunity.

Larry Vickers
11-10-08, 21:15
Overall one of the best group of guys ever for a class - other than a little rain at the end of day 2 I honestly think It could not have went smoother

Looking back on the low light classes Ken and I both agree that anyone who participated witnessed history as classes such as these have never been done before - truly unique in every respect

Be safe and I will see many of you relatively soon

LAV

ErikL
11-11-08, 19:33
This was a great class. my hats off to to Ken, Larry and all the AI's that made this possible. It was also a pleasure to get to train with a great group of guys, who also made this class possible. While I'm not going to give a traditional AAR of what was covered. I will give some of my observations.

-Physical fitness along with the proper state of mind are key, while we didn't do anything overly physical I can tell my diminished physical condition prevented me from performing at a level I expect of myself. Its not the gear its the guy using it after all.

-Similarly If you can't find the time to get to the range, at least get some dry firing in. I developed a case of El Snacho's and and a few other things I need to work on.

-If it can break, it will do it at the worse time. My pistol light went down in the last scenario, have a back up if you can.

-Accuracy, and shot placement are key.

-There is a limitless amount of ways you can set up your carbine regarding lights and the means in which you turn them on. Just because it works for someone else doesn't mean it will work for you.

-Larry and Templar are walking encyclopedias of firearms knowledge.

-LED lights have come along way.


Overall I took a ton away from this class, I'm fortunate to be able to attend.

Cheers.

C4IGrant
11-12-08, 08:55
Great class (maybe the best ever) with an excellent group of shooters. There was no "I need to zero my gun" or "Why don't I just turn my flashlight on and leave it on" types of questions.

My partner (Jay) was very good, but felt sorry for him as the entire class he was referred to as "Team GrantHawk." I guess that is better than being called "Team Single Point" or "Team Hoser."

There were many funny moments/comments from the class. Some of my favorites:

"You know he's Asian right?" EricL

"Ahh I take NV and PEQ-2 back to my great leader Kim Jong-il." Ben Wa

"Tactical Internet Personality (TIP) that's you!" LAV

"Hey D*CKHEAD, put your thumb up!" LAV

"WHITE POWER!" Lance/GrantHawk/McLovin


C4

30 cal slut
11-12-08, 10:38
RMAO.

Gonna be tough to top this training experience, short of enristing. And I rearry mean that.

TOrrock
11-12-08, 15:48
Does Dinger's warbelt make me look fat?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20-%20Hackathorn%20LLII%201108/TD1_Templar2.jpg





Oh, never mind, that's my fat ass......:o




I will reinforce the excellent points already made, especially by Erik. Mental and physical conditioning are extrememly important in an advanced class like this.

It took me a full day and a half to un**** myself to the point that I wasn't completely flailing. I borrowed VA_Dinger's warbelt, and was finally able to configure it to where I needed it, with Grant's advice, the morning of TD3.

The first time and the last time I'd been able to perform any of these drills was last year, and it definitely showed. "Team Templar" was re-christened "Team Shortbus" on TD1.

Hopefully, by TD3, we shed most of the bussing.

30 cal slut took a bunch of crap from people and continued motoring on. JW777 also put up with a bunch of crap, and was a good sport about it.

This was by far the best class I've attended, and though I know what the answer is going to be, if it were ever held again, I'd be first on the sign up chart if they'd have me again.

Watching people who really knew what they were doing perform these drills, and comparing them to myself, I know I have a long, long, long way to go to get proficient and stay that way.

I'm fairly happy with the way my 6920 is set up, even with the 6P set up at 4 o'clock, I could easily activate from either shoulder, and learned how to minimize backsplash. The Kahles CSX 1.1-4x worked great, although there were instances where a non magnified red dot (Aimpoint) would have been superior, I'm happy enough with the scope that I'm not going to change it.

If I wasn't a believer in CT grips before this class, I am now. I shot my SIG P226 Tactical with CT grips and I was very impressed with them. On the SIG, they're a little bulky for CCW, but for a bump in the night gun, they're great.

A huge thanks goes to Ken and Larry, and the AI's for putting up with us and trying to hammer some knowledge into our skulls.

I took vacation time to be at the class, but it wasn't a vacation for me. Where else could I have gotten this training as a civvie? And, from the level of instructors? No where that I'm aware of.

It was good seeing the usual suspects and to catch up with friends, and meet new faces and count them as friends as well.

Kevin, you're a lucky man, she's definitely a keeper if she put up with all of us.

And Ben, thanks for not shooting me, I appreciate it.....:D


Usual suspects......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20-%20Hackathorn%20LLII%201108/TD3_Laffs.jpg

30 cal slut
11-12-08, 16:23
And Ben, thanks for not shooting me, I appreciate it.....:D



Weren't you a nervous nelly. :D

John_Wayne777
11-13-08, 09:46
Well, I suppose I should post something....

I'm not going to do a detailed AAR on this one because there was a lot of reenforcement of the fundamentals of low light learned in the level I courses, and personally I found that to be extremely useful. Any time spent working in low light helps to make you more comfortable with the environment and what you need to do in it.

For instance: The first drill we went through on TD1 was an accuracy competition. We shot several strings of rifle and pistol fire with the carbine and handgun during the afternoon, and then the exact same string at night. I shot the carbine sections clean in both environments (thank you, Aimpoint) and I managed come in 2nd on the drill, losing out to Eric by 2 points and beating the dude in 3rd place by a BIG margin.

(Huge. Massive. All the gucci gear and a suppressor couldn't help him enough to beat my sorry ass with a Bushmaster. That has to be REALLY embarrassing.)

Anyhoo, while shooting these drills the emphasis was on accuracy....so most guys gamed it and kept their light on the entire run of the drill. While shooting the drill, however, I was battling an intense desire to turn the light off. The previous low lights had such a powerful impact on my thinking that now my brain was screaming at me (in a voice that sounded an awful lot like Ken's voice) that I needed to turn that light off.

[Hannibal Lecter] I do believe we're beginning to make progress! [/Hannibal Lecter]

I was also moving a lot more after shots and after light uses than in the level 1 classes. Amazing what practice will do for you.

My favorite part of TD1 was running the barrel house with the carbines both in the day and at night. When attempting to do a 1 man clear of that structure with a long gun you suddenly realize why Mr. Vickers came up with his sling. It's crucial to be able to switch shoulders to get the best possible angles on the rooms. I was also impressed with how easy it was to get hits with the RDS equipped carbine. I was making head shots with little to no effort. It felt like cheating.

The only downside to using the carbine was a couple of tight spaces wouldn't allow for a traditional shoulder mounted position with the rifle, especially if you're using an A2 stock like I was. No worries, however, as I simply put the stock of the rifle on the top of my shoulder and tilted the rifle allowing me to use the Aimpoint, which I used to continue with the head shot theme.

God bless the Aimpoint.

On some other sites I often hear people ask why anyone would pick an AR carbine to use as a home defense weapon over a pistol. One trip through that barrel house with an Aimpoint equipped carbine would clear that up pretty damned quick.

TD2 saw us at the shoothouse in Clarington going over the CQB stuff again. NCPatrolAR called me as his partner early on TD1 and so we stayed partnered up for the rest of the class. We did the 2 man stuff quite well. The only real downside was that I discovered that when armed with a Colt SMG I apparently have a proclivity to shoot hostages. Apparently even though I wasn't using the happy switch merely having it on the weapon was turning me into a slaughterer of the innocent. This re-enforced my belief that full auto should only be used by the military and the police.

On one of the runs through the house I decided that I was going to see how many hits I could get on the pepper poppers before they fell. The best I could manage was 6 hits on it before it dropped. Mr. Vickers said, and I quote "Slow the ^&@!% down, hoser!" I had some awesome split times.

In general everybody did the team stuff a lot more smoothly this time around.

TD3 brought out the NV and the IR lasers. The instructors explained the strengths and weaknesses of NV equipment and when the tools were most useful. We did some basic fam fire with the equipment using weapons equipped with IR lasers. Then we hit the shoothouse.

According to the instructors as a group we actually did better at the team based stuff with the NV equipment because it forced us to move slower and more deliberately. Accuracy was also improved as people slowed down and made quality hits.

I was using the Colt SMG and NCPatrolAR was using the 1911 equipped with an IR unit from Crimson Trace. A guy with an SMG and a guy with a 1911 make for a pretty interesting match. I got lots of experience yelling "Covering!" in response to my partner yelling "Loading!".

Using the NV was a pain in the neck. The helmet wasn't adjusted well because we just didn't have the time, so I ended up going through the house as the NV slowly sank down my face. By the last couple of rooms I was moving with my head pointed up like a rat sniffing for some cheese. Depth perception with those 7B's was a pain in the neck, but overall I preferred using them to the PVS-14 monocle setup. Accuracy with the IR lasers was pretty easy. I tried for headshots again and misjudged the offset of the laser, but my hits were still very good. The desire to snatch the unholy bejeezus out of the trigger when you are tucking a rifle under your arm instead of mounting it to the shoulder as normal is intense.

The final drill on TD3 was a home invasion scenario. We had to start in the back room of the house with our weapon laying on a "table". The command "up" was supposed to be replicating the sound of somebody smashing into our house. We then had to do a one man clear of the house to go find the intruder and take care of it. Once again I had some awesome split times on the intruder.

Immediately after putting him down we then heard a "scream" from our "child's" room. You would think that after having been in that shoothouse for a number of days I'd know where they could hide everything, but not so. After verbally expressing my displeasure at having damn near missed the bad guy, I managed to pop him 3 times before he hit the ground.

The goal of the drill was to force everybody to do another 1 man clear and to expose the balance you have to strike between speed and security. One of the good things about the instruction you receive from Vickers and Hackathorn is the sense of balance that they teach.

There's a time to deliberately clear a structure...there's also a time to run to the sound of the problem and start shooting. There's a time for the low-ready, and a time for the high-ready. There's a time for point shooting, and there's a time for a hard front sight focus....a time to every purpose, under heaven...You don't get that approach from just any instructors. A number of them take something that makes sense in a particular circumstance and stretch it to unnatural extremes to try and cover all circumstances.

After the conclusion of TD3 Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers stopped by the Holiday Inn for some pizza and told some stories, keeping us entertained until after 2 am.

Overall, it was a great class. I learned quite a bit and had a good time learning it. The lessons taught were valuable and watching guys stack up on the pineapple upside down cake was entertaining. We didn't have too many shenanigans this time around because apparently the people who ran the motel remembered some of us from last time and made sure to close the bar every time they saw us coming. I also learned that I had offended some delicate sensibilities on another site (which, from what I understand, isn't hard to do) and that they actually want to turn me into a moderator here.

It was good to hang out with some of the M4C regulars, although a few moments made me question the wisdom of hanging out with some of these guys. I was forced to come up with a scale of ick.

On the plus side, in a roundabout way it helped me come up with what may become my new sig-line:

"Shooting steel is like dating a midget."

EDIT -- Oh, and the 20 count boxes of beer can really only hold 20 bottles no matter how you try to put them in there.

John_Wayne777
11-13-08, 20:11
Something else....has anyone heard from the Raven Concealment guys yet? I owe them some money for the stuff they made me.

30 cal slut
11-14-08, 07:06
After the conclusion of TD3 Mr. Hackathorn and Mr. Vickers stopped by the Holiday Inn for some pizza and told some stories, keeping us entertained until after 2 am.


After swerving all over the Ohio valley, I miraculously made it in to the post-training festivities ... and upon reaching the room immediately spotted my #1 man Templar practicing a pie-cut and corner clear prior to entering the room. Just like the shoothouse. I was met with a sheepish grin. (That's okay, I do the same thing at work now). Thanks to KevinB and the missus for the pizza - that really hit the spot!


p.s.

If I show up at Larry's next AK class decked out in black PJ's, please don't shoot me. :eek:

;)

stony275
11-14-08, 13:09
Something else....has anyone heard from the Raven Concealment guys yet? I owe them some money for the stuff they made me.


I know Michael has been working his way through the list and calling guys.

John_Wayne777
11-14-08, 13:27
I know Michael has been working his way through the list and calling guys.

Cool. I just want to make sure that I pay them for their hard work. They busted their hump for us and made something for almost everyone in the class if I remember correctly.

KevinB
11-15-08, 22:59
Not sure they have anything but email for me.
they did an awesome job on the belt adaptor for me - and the other items I got from them too - and I want to make sure the get their due.

Heavy Metal
11-17-08, 21:12
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20-%20Hackathorn%20LLII%201108/TD3_Laffs.jpg

Isn't this the scene where they freeze frame and roll credits?:D

C4IGrant
11-18-08, 12:46
It is time to pay tribute to the "T.I.P. :D


C4



http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll200/Thekatar/tip.jpg


The "TIP's" Car
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/TIP.jpg

The bunny eared "TIP"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/TIP_Bunnyears.jpg

John_Wayne777
11-18-08, 13:29
It's people like you what cause unrest.

C4IGrant
11-18-08, 13:48
It's people like you what cause unrest.




I have heard this before. ;)

C4

kgreen
11-18-08, 14:25
How are the M&P pistols holding up for you guys that shoot them a lot? Does Ken still like his M&P .45? Just curious to see how they are doing in high round count environments.

ToddG
11-18-08, 14:38
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/TIP_Bunnyears.jpg

The dude on the left is wearing his ankle holster a little too high.

Jay Cunningham
11-18-08, 14:52
The dude on the left is wearing his ankle holster a little too high.

But at least he didn't shoot Templar.

Heavy Metal
11-18-08, 19:44
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/TIP.jpg

Whose car did all those empties come from?

KevinB
11-18-08, 20:10
EROK with a C

SHIVAN
11-19-08, 10:18
This post is funnier then hell: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=227000

:D:D:D

C4IGrant
11-19-08, 11:03
This post is funnier then hell: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=227000

:D:D:D



That is funny!


C4

Sam
11-19-08, 13:42
The dude on the left is wearing his ankle holster a little too high.

In this picture, his 6004 looks like it was in front instead of on the side of his thigh. Is that the "thunderwear" location? :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20-%20Hackathorn%20LLII%201108/TD3_Laffs.jpg

30 cal slut
11-19-08, 13:44
The dude on the left is wearing his ankle holster a little too high.

Yeah, cuz the dude on the left is a freakin retard.

Sam
11-19-08, 16:05
Yeah, cuz the dude on the left is a freakin retard.

He's in a Hackathorn/LAV class, I doubt he's a retard.

I'm not sure about the Milfmasta though. :) He's the guy looking up into the sky standing next to the "low riding" holster fellow. I heard he rides the short bus.

John_Wayne777
11-19-08, 17:23
Whose car did all those empties come from?

From our post-training get together.

Heavy Metal
11-24-08, 20:54
He's in a Hackathorn/LAV class, I doubt he's a retard.

I'm not sure about the Milfmasta though. :) He's the guy looking up into the sky standing next to the "low riding" holster fellow. I heard he rides the short bus.

I think that was meant to be a self-depricating remark.

By left, I think he means your right:D

NCPatrolAR
12-04-08, 12:14
Look what the cat drug in :D




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01977.jpg

C4IGrant
12-04-08, 12:18
Look what the cat drug in :D




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/Brachialstun/DSC01977.jpg



MMMMMMM STORM LOVE!

I feel bad that I never got to shoot the B Storm. :D


C4

KevinB
12-04-08, 12:52
I think it was about as relaible as your 9mm Subgun :D

NCPatrolAR
12-04-08, 13:01
I think it was about as relaible as your 9mm Subgun :D

Actually I dont know of anyone that had any malfunctions when using the Storm. I didnt have any and I think I used it more than anyone else out there.

John_Wayne777
12-04-08, 13:28
Actually I dont know of anyone that had any malfunctions when using the Storm. I didnt have any and I think I used it more than anyone else out there.

As much as I hate to admit it....he's right.

The only issue I had with the storm was accidentally engaging the bolt lock.

KevinB
12-04-08, 13:35
I had a stoppage with it - however I think it was my bumping the bolt catch.

I think Erik L had one to.

My biggest issue was the controls where awkward for me.

C4IGrant
12-04-08, 14:24
I think it was about as relaible as your 9mm Subgun :D


My subgun never failed (as long as I used ONE mag and stuck to a certain type of 147 subsonic ammo). ;)


C4

Jay Cunningham
12-04-08, 14:36
My subgun never failed (as long as I used ONE mag and stuck to a certain type of 147 subsonic ammo). ;)


C4

Did it run flawlessly?

C4IGrant
12-04-08, 14:39
Actually I dont know of anyone that had any malfunctions when using the Storm. I didnt have any and I think I used it more than anyone else out there.


I do not remember one. I do know that a lot of people couldn't hit CHIT with it though and was the cause of a few bullet holes in the walls. :eek:

C4

C4IGrant
12-04-08, 14:39
Did it run flawlessly?


Yes as long as I used the Colt mag and a certain brand of 147gr Subsonic. Did you have any malfunctions running it?


C4

Jay Cunningham
12-04-08, 14:41
I suspect people not being to hit with it had everything to do with experience. On the fam fire portion I found the Storm to be accurate and have a good trigger with a crisp reset. Obviously the controls were bizarre when compared to an AR.

C4IGrant
12-04-08, 14:45
I suspect people not being to hit with it had everything to do with experience. On the fam fire portion I found the Storm to be accurate and have a good trigger with a crisp reset. Obviously the controls were bizarre when compared to an AR.



Could be. There was some WILD ass rounds being thrown with it though.


C4

NCPatrolAR
12-04-08, 14:50
I had a stoppage with it - however I think it was my bumping the bolt catch.

I think Erik L had one to.

My biggest issue was the controls where awkward for me.


I do remember Ken saying that you had to watch the bolt catch on it. I found it is easy to just rest my thumb on top of it to prevent accidental activation.

John_Wayne777
12-04-08, 15:00
I do not remember one. I do know that a lot of people couldn't hit CHIT with it though and was the cause of a few bullet holes in the walls. :eek:

C4

I suspect that was more the fault of El Snatcho than anything else. I didn't particularly like the weapon, but it was easy as hell to make hits with.

30 cal slut
12-04-08, 15:31
I do not remember one. I do know that a lot of people couldn't hit CHIT with it though and was the cause of a few bullet holes in the walls. :eek:

C4

HUH? :confused:

I don't remember any holes in the cinder blocks (!).

I agree with Thekatar that the ergonomics took a little getting used to after slinging an M4 all day.

ErikL
12-05-08, 04:07
I had a stoppage with it - however I think it was my bumping the bolt catch.

I think Erik L had one to.

My biggest issue was the controls where awkward for me.

I road the bolt catch with my thumb like a 1911 (I think), Ken squared me away as I stood there befuddled. If I were to own one, I would take a hacksaw to the lower part of the stock and remove the "thumbhole". That strip of plastic made me have some weird wrist/ hand position and probably was the cause of my Malf. I also had to hunt for the dot when I shouldered it, the scope seemed much lower than on a AR platform. I liked it enough to look for a used reasonably priced/ cheap storm to play with.

I did like the 9mm AR's, they were fast handling and fun to shoot, but they seem to be super picky in the magazine department. I actually found great humor in watching people load up a magazine to capacity and then give them a little tap only to see the rounds spit out of the magazine in rapid succession.

NCPatrolAR
12-05-08, 06:20
I road the bolt catch with my thumb like a 1911 (I think), Ken squared me away as I stood there befuddled. If I were to own one, I would take a hacksaw to the lower part of the stock and remove the "thumbhole". That strip of plastic made me have some weird wrist/ hand position and probably was the cause of my Malf. I also had to hunt for the dot when I shouldered it, the scope seemed much lower than on a AR platform. I liked it enough to look for a used reasonably priced/ cheap storm to play with.

I did like the 9mm AR's, they were fast handling and fun to shoot, but they seem to be super picky in the magazine department. I actually found great humor in watching people load up a magazine to capacity and then give them a little tap only to see the rounds spit out of the magazine in rapid succession.


Something I just learned; you can fold the iron sights down so they are completely out of the way if you want. You still have to look through the towers, but it opens the field of view up slightly. I had some issues with picking up the dot at first on Ken's gun as well.


Oh; and the "arm" on the stock does tend to cause your forearm to roll out slightly. I'm also still looking for a way to increase the size of the magazine release.

stony275
12-05-08, 08:58
Based upon what Ken had to say about the Storm and my fam fire with it, I bought a barely used one at the Medina gun show the following weekend.

KevinB
12-05-08, 11:58
Grant - I was just hacking on you -- the magazine issues I had with your gun I found very surprising, I used to have a Colt RO934 SMG that was flawless thru several thousand rounds - of course I had a good supply of Colt mags too.

I really wish we had been able to use 5.56mm Frang, as I am not a big 9mm long gun fan - except for a supressed system.

John_Wayne777
12-05-08, 13:30
I did like the 9mm AR's, they were fast handling and fun to shoot, but they seem to be super picky in the magazine department. I actually found great humor in watching people load up a magazine to capacity and then give them a little tap only to see the rounds spit out of the magazine in rapid succession.

That was my ammo trying desperately to return to the rightful owner.

Next time I'm gonna have the shaman use goat blood to pronounce a more aggressive voodoo curse on my ammo can. Apparently the chicken blood wasn't strong enough to get the job done.

Jay Cunningham
12-05-08, 13:36
I'm gonna have the shaman use goat blood

I heard that Super Dave can help you with that.

CarlosDJackal
12-07-08, 22:58
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20-%20Hackathorn%20LLII%201108/TD3_Laffs.jpg

Isn't this the scene where they freeze frame and roll credits?:D

Those guys kinda remind me of "The Anchorman" anchorcrew. :D