View Full Version : Taliban "poised to retake Afghanistan" after NATO pullout
variablebinary
02-01-12, 05:10
All those lost men. All the money wasted. All the time families will never get back.
For what? What was the mission? What was the exit strategy? How was victory defined?
We are Rome, and Pakistan can go to hell.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/01/us-afghanistan-idUSTRE8100E520120201
By Hamid Shalizi and Mirwais Harooni
KABUL | Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:32am EST
(Reuters) - The U.S. military said in a secret report the Taliban, backed by Pakistan, are set to retake control of Afghanistan after NATO-led forces withdraw from the country, raising the prospect of a major failure of western policy after a costly war.
Lieutenant Colonel Jimmie Cummings, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force, confirmed the existence of the document, reported by Britain's Times newspaper and the BBC. But he said it was not a strategic study.
"The classified document in question is a compilation of Taliban detainee opinions," he said. "It's not an analysis, nor is it meant to be considered an analysis."
Nevertheless, it could be interpreted as a damning assessment of the war, now dragging into its eleventh year and aimed at blocking a Taliban return to power.
History.
Russian history.
British history.
We should have read some.
I simply cannot fathom how anyone could think it would turn out any different. :confused:
montanadave
02-01-12, 08:12
Imagine the past decade had we finished the job at Tora Bora (December 2001) and came home. No scenic detour through Baghdad. Simply continued drone strikes against AQ bases in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which have ultimately proven more effective in destroying AQ leadership than anything else.
Would the world be significantly different today? More importantly, where would this country be today and how different might the national mood be?
The failure of American leadership to pick up a history book and the failure of the American public to demand accountability from those leaders has led us well down the road to ruin.
I simply cannot fathom how anyone could think it would turn out any different. :confused:
No shit. This is a complete SHOCKER. :eek:
This wasn't too difficult to predict as others have mentioned. My thoughts go out to all the men and women who have served and are currently serving in Afghanistan and to the families who have lost loved ones there.
People should demand that Congress must declare war as outlined in the Constitution. The people in government that make these unilateral decisions should be held accountable for their actions.
Belmont31R
02-01-12, 11:59
Of course they are. They already have shadow governments setup under our nose.
Better keep your opinion to yourself though. If you mention A-stan was a waste of time and lives then you're anit-american/anti-service men and women...
Sad that we wasted so much resources (lives and wealth) on a country full of savages that want to be left to their dated ways.
Sounds like we need to kill a lot more of them before we leave then. Then make sure we have plenty of drones ready to rain death from above as often as needed.
**** the Taliban.
DeltaSierra
02-01-12, 12:20
History.
Russian history.
British history.
We should have read some.
"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them." - George Santayana
**** the Taliban.
Let them worry about the Taliban.
Sounds like we need to kill a lot more of them before we leave then. Then make sure we have plenty of drones ready to rain death from above as often as needed.
I'd rather use B52s
GermanSynergy
02-01-12, 13:51
Sounds like we need to kill a lot more of them before we leave then. Then make sure we have plenty of drones ready to rain death from above as often as needed.
**** the Taliban.
I like the cut of your jib.
I'd rather use B52s
I'm down with B52's, but sometimes a B1 is just too sexy to not use. They're also simply amazing to behold when flying under 1000ft.
Afghanistan is a complete loss? No shit, that was sort of obvious to me around 2005.
The Taliban is a creation of and controlled by the Pakistani ISI (google it). Pakistan has enough problems with India and does not want another regional competitor. Pakistan keeps Afghanistan broke and in disarray. The path to fixing Afghanistan goes thru Pakistan (literally). If we are not willing to deal with the ISI then there is no 'fixing' Afghanistan.
CarlosDJackal
02-01-12, 14:37
And this is supposed to be a surprise, why? When the CiC announces the pullout of troops based on political promises without regard to the actual situation; this is the result. :mad:
My worry is I know quite a few individuals who are currently in country and are scheduled to go sometime in the future; are they going cancel their deployment and bring them home as well? Or are they going to use them for rear guard actions?
I'm down with B52's, but sometimes a B1 is just too sexy to not use. They're also simply amazing to behold when flying under 1000ft.
So is a Buff, especially when it's 200ft AGL and you're on a hilltop, above it. :)
And this is supposed to be a surprise, why? When the CiC announces the pullout of troops based on political promises without regard to the actual situation; this is the result. :mad:
My worry is I know quite a few individuals who are currently in country and are scheduled to go sometime in the future; are they going cancel their deployment and bring them home as well? Or are they going to use them for rear guard actions?
If I were in country right now, I'd be doing my level best to do absolutely nothing, appear nonexistent and pretend otherwise for the brass. Dying sucks. Dying at the end of a conflict for no real purpose sucks even harder. :(
If I were in country right now, I'd be doing my level best to do absolutely nothing, appear nonexistent and pretend otherwise for the brass. Dying sucks. Dying at the end of a conflict for no real purpose sucks even harder. :(
Actually, this TTP has been used for some time now. Given that it is impossible to 'win' anything in Afghanistan many commanders have a goal to simply avoid pissing of the brass, bring everyone home, and not lose any equipment.
CarlosDJackal
02-01-12, 15:35
...If I were in country right now, I'd be doing my level best to do absolutely nothing, appear nonexistent and pretend otherwise for the brass. Dying sucks. Dying at the end of a conflict for no real purpose sucks even harder. :(
Yup. And as history has shown us, the casualty rate of an Army (per capita based on the number of Soldiers who are in country) increases during retrograde operations. They proved this during the end of the Vietnam War.
I simply cannot fathom how anyone could think it would turn out any different. :confused:
Pretty much.
I have no problem hunting/destroying the Taliban. But we should have done it like the Israelis do things.
I don't think a semblance of victory in Afghanistan was out of reach from the get-go. The fact is that our intelligence and military apparatus is vastly more capable than any other empire that has found its grave in the mountains of Afghanistan in years past. The mission could have been accomplished. I hate to Monday morning quarterback things, but an honest reflection on the last 11 years points to our failure being a result of bad strategic decisions. At a tactical level, a force on force engagement with any US ground combat forces is an unwinnable proposition. Yet even major tactical losses equate to strategic victories for the Taliban on the I/O front.
The idea of kinetic actions being tactical victories yet strategic failures was not recognized quickly enough. That is failure number one. Every 0-5 that gets his first battle space wants to make a name for himself. You don't make a name for yourself because of the shots you don't take. But that is how
we could have won the people.
Failure number two was in the way that we created the new Afghan Army. We modeled the indigenous force off of ourselves. We created an Army in our own image. That Afghan Army is now unsuited for the threat it faces. From the beginning, the Afghan military should have mirrored ENEMY forces, not us. Now, ANSF is disconnected and impotent. It's not an easy thing to explain how ridiculous it is that the Afghan Army drives down the road in HMMWV's with .50 Cals just waiting to get blown up or RPG'd when the Taliban lives comfortably in the villages right off the road. We separated the Afghan military from the population by putting them in bases, trucks, and uniforms. They should be living in those villages so that the Taliban cannot. Why the **** does the ANA live on US bases?
On a similar note, the Afghan equivalent of the Iraqi SOI/CLC/Saweh program was way too late coming. Why did it take so long?
I realize that a litany of complaints is not a solution. In many ways this was uncharted territory for our leaders, and I believe that they did an outstanding job with the knowledge they had. Hindsight is 20/20. Far be it from me to take their accomplishments from them.
Pretty much.
I have no problem hunting/destroying the Taliban. But we should have done it like the Israelis do things.
I don't think a semblance of victory in Afghanistan was out of reach from the get-go. The fact is that our intelligence and military apparatus is vastly more capable than any other empire that has found its grave in the mountains of Afghanistan in years past. The mission could have been accomplished. I hate to Monday morning quarterback things, but an honest reflection on the last 11 years points to our failure being a result of bad strategic decisions. At a tactical level, a force on force engagement with any US ground combat forces is an unwinnable proposition. Yet even major tactical losses equate to strategic victories for the Taliban on the I/O front.
The idea of kinetic actions being tactical victories yet strategic failures was not recognized quickly enough. That is failure number one. Every 0-5 that gets his first battle space wants to make a name for himself. You don't make a name for yourself because of the shots you don't take. But that is how
we could have won the people.
Failure number two was in the way that we created the new Afghan Army. We modeled the indigenous force off of ourselves. We created an Army in our own image. That Afghan Army is now unsuited for the threat it faces. From the beginning, the Afghan military should have mirrored ENEMY forces, not us. Now, ANSF is disconnected and impotent. It's not an easy thing to explain how ridiculous it is that the Afghan Army drives down the road in HMMWV's with .50 Cals just waiting to get blown up or RPG'd when the Taliban lives comfortably in the villages right off the road. We separated the Afghan military from the population by putting them in bases, trucks, and uniforms. They should be living in those villages so that the Taliban cannot. Why the **** does the ANA live on US bases?
On a similar note, the Afghan equivalent of the Iraqi SOI/CLC/Saweh program was way too late coming. Why did it take so long?
I realize that a litany of complaints is not a solution. In many ways this was uncharted territory for our leaders, and I believe that they did an outstanding job with the knowledge they had. Hindsight is 20/20. Far be it from me to take their accomplishments from them.
Strategically, I thing we're seeing the cold war filters negatively effecting the mission. For too many policy wonks, this was our opportunity to prove we could do what the Russians were unable to do. When in fact, they should have spent more time regarding what the Russians did wrong.
In hindsight, when the Taliban got put in the crosshairs after 9/11, the best thing Bush could've done is go have a private chat with Putin and ask some serious questions about Afghanistan. Sadly, he was surrounded by people like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc., who were not giving sound strategic advice. To paraphrase a popular battle meme, "One does not simply walk into Afghanistan...Not with ten thousand men could you do this. It is folly."
Our "leaders" had no concept of what was actually there. They even believed Al-Qaeda and the Taliban had the mountain equivalent of the Ho Chi Minh trail at Tora Bora. They did not. When you have no concept of the enemy you face, victory is anything but assured. The Bush administration should've followed Sun Tzu rather than Clausewitz.
We wanted to bring American democracy to Afghanistan, which they cannot fathom or assimilate. The most they could handle is perhaps Mexican democracy, as exemplified in the corruption of the Karzai led government. Of course, so long as Karzai tows the US company line, we don't mind. THAT, will net us additional enemies for years to come. It's like ****ing herpes, the gift that keeps on giving. :(
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-01-12, 17:32
Im glad I never drank the cool aid the rest of the country did
I don't think a semblance of victory in Afghanistan was out of reach from the get-go.
Agreed. I would say there were three major ****-ups:
1. Anaconda - The SOF elements on the ground wanted the support of Rangers and Paratroopers. Instead, the micromanaging big brains in the White House gave them the slap-nut Northern Alliance. When OBL asked to talk surrender terms the Northern Alliance insisted respected the request. OBL slipped out the back door.
2. Not fully supporting the Northern Alliance to include giving them their own country. They just needed to push their territory out to where they could legitimately claim independent status in the UN.
The idea of kinetic actions being tactical victories yet strategic failures was not recognized quickly enough. That is failure number one. Every 0-5 that gets his first battle space wants to make a name for himself.
3. Allowing conventional forces into Afghanistan. It should have stayed a SOF mission. For all of the things that have gone wrong in Afghanistan the one thing that worked well was sending ODAs out with a sack full of money.
We could, in fact, 'save' Afghanistan but we would have to CORRECTLY employ SOF, cash money, and UAVs. But, since we will not do this, it's time to shut it down.
Pakistan needs to be sawed off at the Indus and thrown back to India.
Cagemonkey
02-01-12, 20:01
Pakistan needs to be sawed off at the Indus and thrown back to India.Agreed. Pakistan sees the writing on the wall and has fully committed to a long term strategic relationship with China. The best thing for us to do, is deep six their asses and work on a strategic relationship with India.
Cagemonkey
02-01-12, 20:21
Afghanistan is a complete loss? No shit, that was sort of obvious to me around 2005.
The Taliban is a creation of and controlled by the Pakistani ISI (google it). Pakistan has enough problems with India and does not want another regional competitor. Pakistan keeps Afghanistan broke and in disarray. The path to fixing Afghanistan goes thru Pakistan (literally). If we are not willing to deal with the ISI then there is no 'fixing' Afghanistan.Agreed. We never should have gone into Afghanistan. We should have contracted out the ISI/Pakistan to handover UBL and his subordinates in exchange for continued US aid and not interfering with Pakistan's strategic interests. If they didn't deliver, we should have held them accountable. Nation building is not in the interest of the US. This was back in 2001 when the US had clout. Now we're weakened by a decade of war and approaching financial insolvency. UBL's long term strategy seems to be working:(. Just my 2 cents.
RogerinTPA
02-01-12, 22:10
Not really a surprise announcement from them. All the so called up upcoming talks with them means jack shit. They are jockeying for position while perpetrating this negotiation BS. Everyone who is sane, anticipated this as being the effect of our withdrawal. All this war amounted to was mission creep of the highest order.
Heavy Metal
02-01-12, 22:22
Agreed. We never should have gone into Afghanistan. We should have contracted out the ISI/Pakistan to handover UBL and his subordinates in exchange for continued US aid and not interfering with Pakistan's strategic interests. If they didn't deliver, we should have held them accountable. Nation building is not in the interest of the US. This was back in 2001 when the US had clout. Now we're weakened by a decade of war and approaching financial insolvency. UBL's long term strategy seems to be working:(. Just my 2 cents.
Our budget deficit for last year was greater than the cost of both the Afghan and Iraqi wars combined for a decade. We have a financial insolvency but 100 billion dollars a year is nothing in comparison to a 1.6 trillion dollar annual deficit.
Agreed. We never should have gone into Afghanistan. We should have contracted out the ISI/Pakistan to handover UBL and his subordinates in exchange for continued US aid and not interfering with Pakistan's strategic interests. If they didn't deliver, we should have held them accountable. Nation building is not in the interest of the US. This was back in 2001 when the US had clout. Now we're weakened by a decade of war and approaching financial insolvency. UBL's long term strategy seems to be working:(. Just my 2 cents.
When it was announced that we assassinated Al-Awlaki I emailed my dad and told him that UBL won.
The exponential power grab by the government at the expense of civil liberties, 6k dead and tens of thousands injured, horrible world opinion, failing dollar, insurmountable national debt, endless war after endless war (next stop: Iran) that rally the ME against us and weaken our national security, the TSA, DHS, Patriot Act, NDAA, it doesn't end. UBL wanted to destroy America, he obviously couldn't physically destroy America but look at what has happened in the last decade and try to convince yourself he didn't.
We have a long road back to what we are supposed to be, with no sign we are going to start down that road anytime soon.
sounds a lot like someone just created a lot of combat hardened, experienced veterans pissed off at thier own government.
oops.
sounds a lot like someone just created a lot of combat hardened, experienced veterans pissed off at thier own government.
oops.
And is bringing them home to a shitty economy. Bonus Army anyone? :(
And is bringing them home to a shitty economy. Bonus Army anyone? :(
No different than post WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.
I'd rather use B52s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q
Raven Armament
02-02-12, 02:24
America is a republic, not a democracy. By "American democracy" what do you mean, specifically?
America is a republic, not a democracy. By "American democracy" what do you mean, specifically?
I assume you're referring to my post? America is a democratic republic. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of morons who believe we're a true democracy, which is merely mob rule. I blame the education system and parents for the poor civics of our once great nation. :(
skullworks
02-02-12, 13:05
The question we need to remember is what was the goal when the U.S. (followed by it's allies - including my native Sweden) invaded Afghanistan? It was to bring OBL to justice (or death - his choice) - not to fight the Taliban.
Essentially the Talibans got "caught in the middle." As some of you may remember the Taliban government actually debated quite heatedly whether or not OBL and AQ should be turned over to the U.S. for 9/11. But after lengthy discussions they decided that as it is their custom (Lokhay Warkawal - ask Marcus Luttrell about it if you don't know) to provide their guests with every protection available to the host, they could not comply with the U.S. demands. It was more important to the Taliban to preserve their culture and way of life than to risk the full wrath of the U.S.
So yeah, I'm very sorry that so many have been lost and wounded in Afghanistan, but the outcome was always going to be the same.
No different than post WWI, WWII, Korea, or Vietnam.
But in WWII the vets came home to a thankful public, a HUGE array of great veteran benefits, jobs, jobs, and more jobs thanks to a newly industrialized US with lots of excess capacity and NO foreign competition (mostly because it all got bombed).
Post VN, veteran benefits were drastically scaled back, there are no jobs (especially for returning vets), China has wiped out most heavy industry in this country, and the public at large really couldn't give a **** less about vets beyond putting a yellow magnet on their minivan.
And, both political parties are fairly anti-veteran.
And they wonder why every few months a vet goes on a shooting spree!?
It is worth noting that many vets naturally gravitate toward Ron Paul and the 'occupy' movement. Think about it....
I agree with Armati on this. the atmosphere is different now and there is a significant amount of anti-establishment undercurrent in society as a whole. when you add typical re-adjustment that vets go thru when "coming home" to the undercurrent you get a particularly volitile situation.
The anti-government types are not the same as they were in the 90's. they are much more savvy and better trained and more on the leading edge than the trailing edge of things. they have watched how the establishment has manipulated things and see how it's done. they are not falling for the same rhetoric this time round.
If only we could get people to turn off thier TV's now. Especially the "News"
davidjinks
02-02-12, 14:47
Thank you!!!
If anyone thought that Afghanistan was going to turn out to be a democracy free from the Taliban and Pakistan was somehow going to be the keystone...I'll have whatever it was you were smoking.
From day one of karzi being "chosen", that's when the fail started. Ahmed Massoud was the only hope of a quasi democracy in Afghanistan.
I simply cannot fathom how anyone could think it would turn out any different. :confused:
montanadave
02-06-12, 09:48
The article linked below was published in the Armed Forces Journal and written by Lt. Colonel Daniel L. Davis after spending a year deployed in Afghanistan. The article is entitled "Truth, Lies, and Afghanistan" and paints a rather grim picture of what, if any, progress has been made over the course of the last decade in Afghanistan.
http://armedforcesjournal.com/2012/02/8904030
I know there are forum members, both military and civilian, who are either currently in Afghanistan or have been deployed there in the past. I am curious as to how their observations and opinions compare to those of Lt. Colonel Davis.
Some excerpts from the article:
"A January 2011 report by the Afghan NGO Security Office noted that public statements made by U.S. and ISAF leaders at the end of 2010 were “sharply divergent from IMF, [international military forces, NGO-speak for ISAF] ‘strategic communication’ messages suggesting improvements. We encourage [nongovernment organization personnel] to recognize that no matter how authoritative the source of any such claim, messages of the nature are solely intended to influence American and European public opinion ahead of the withdrawal, and are not intended to offer an accurate portrayal of the situation for those who live and work here.”
The following month, Anthony Cordesman, on behalf of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wrote that ISAF and the U.S. leadership failed to report accurately on the reality of the situation in Afghanistan.
“Since June 2010, the unclassified reporting the U.S. does provide has steadily shrunk in content, effectively ‘spinning’ the road to victory by eliminating content that illustrates the full scale of the challenges ahead,” Cordesman wrote. “They also, however, were driven by political decisions to ignore or understate Taliban and insurgent gains from 2002 to 2009, to ignore the problems caused by weak and corrupt Afghan governance, to understate the risks posed by sanctuaries in Pakistan, and to ‘spin’ the value of tactical ISAF victories while ignoring the steady growth of Taliban influence and control.”
How many more men must die in support of a mission that is not succeeding and behind an array of more than seven years of optimistic statements by U.S. senior leaders in Afghanistan? No one expects our leaders to always have a successful plan. But we do expect — and the men who do the living, fighting and dying deserve — to have our leaders tell us the truth about what’s going on."
The article concludes:
"When it comes to deciding what matters are worth plunging our nation into war and which are not, our senior leaders owe it to the nation and to the uniformed members to be candid — graphically, if necessary — in telling them what’s at stake and how expensive potential success is likely to be. U.S. citizens and their elected representatives can decide if the risk to blood and treasure is worth it.
Likewise when having to decide whether to continue a war, alter its aims or to close off a campaign that cannot be won at an acceptable price, our senior leaders have an obligation to tell Congress and American people the unvarnished truth and let the people decide what course of action to choose. That is the very essence of civilian control of the military. The American people deserve better than what they’ve gotten from their senior uniformed leaders over the last number of years. Simply telling the truth would be a good start."
I have to be honest, when I read this sort of analysis it convinces me we need to get the **** out of Afghanistan yesterday and never let another drop of American blood be shed in that shithole. And the next politician that wants to commit our forces to another ill-concieved ground war with no exit strategy should be met with a resounding "Yes, sir! We're right behind you. Literally 'behind you.' You and your kids and grandkids can be the tip of the spear."
I've been waiting for a secret Rand report to fall into a reporter's hands, as happened during the Vietnam War, and for the subsequent fallout, just as then. Just wait; it's only a matter of time. We can't even learn from our own history, let alone the history of the places we fight.
CarlosDJackal
02-06-12, 10:20
...And they wonder why every few months a vet goes on a shooting spree!?...
This is pure condescending BULLSHIT!! :mad:
I'm sorry, but shit like this pisses me the **** off. Don't be painting MY VETS as nutcases who ends up committing massacres and other crimes. Don't do a "Murtha" just to make yourself out to be some sort of expert without citing facts.
The percentage of GWOT Veterans who "go on shooting sprees" are far and few in between. There far more Vets who end up reenlisting and/or becoming Police Officers than those who commit crimes or suicide than you or the even more ignorant press leads others to believe.
It is ignorant anti-Veteran statements like yours that push those that end up suffering negative psychological effects. Vets who come home to support systems that put them in a good light do much better.
As someone who have worn the uniform off and on since 1984, today's public have displayed a more positive attitude towards those who serve during the Vietnam Vets who I had the honor to serve with and train under.
I say you need to get off your high horse and owe every Combat Veteran on this and any other site an apology for your generalization.
Strangely enough- those of us on the ground that aren't wearing military uniforms know all too well what the reality is.
The Afghan govt is corrupt and the corruption is one of the primary issues facing the local populace.
We should have never allowed ourselves to get sucked into the whole let's promote democracy, freedom bullshit.
Afghanistan was a military action. We came in, uprooted the Taliban and Al-Qaeda chased out the senior leadership and disrupted operations. That's where it should have ended. We could have left small groups of MIL/Spooks to act on intel or keep things in check, and that's it.
Then of course was the side-track in Iraq which is a whole other story.
We need to leave now, not later. If the U.S wants to keep a presence like USAID or other NGO's then do so. Otherwise it's time to pull up the tent stakes and pack the 50" plasma TV's.
Rmplstlskn
02-06-12, 19:42
Been doin' other stuff for awhile, and it is sad to see what so many believed over a DECADE ago (yes, it has been that long over there) may come to pass with incalculable damages and loss over that decade to our sons, daughters and families, as well as economy...
With the Prez candidates (except one) beating war drums for Iran, I wonder if we (politicians and the herded masses) have learned anything at all...
Rmpl
davidjinks
02-08-12, 13:46
I'm sure they've learned how history has this uncanny way of repeating itself.........:rolleyes:
Been doin' other stuff for awhile, and it is sad to see what so many believed over a DECADE ago (yes, it has been that long over there) may come to pass with incalculable damages and loss over that decade to our sons, daughters and families, as well as economy...
With the Prez candidates (except one) beating war drums for Iran, I wonder if we (politicians and the herded masses) have learned anything at all...
Rmpl
I've been waiting for a secret Rand report to fall into a reporter's hands, as happened during the Vietnam War, and for the subsequent fallout, just as then. Just wait; it's only a matter of time. We can't even learn from our own history, let alone the history of the places we fight.
This mirrors my thought and has been discussed with sadness in my office which has several recently separated or retired veterans (including myself).
CarlosDJackal
02-08-12, 16:27
Been doin' other stuff for awhile, and it is sad to see what so many believed over a DECADE ago (yes, it has been that long over there) may come to pass with incalculable damages and loss over that decade to our sons, daughters and families, as well as economy...
With the Prez candidates (except one) beating war drums for Iran, I wonder if we (politicians and the herded masses) have learned anything at all...
Rmpl
Regardless of whether or not we should have gone into either Afghanistan or Iraq; pulling out may not be the best course of action in the long term. Both countries can serve as a "High Ground" against the country we are now most worried about: Iran. Can you imagine what type of strategic advantage we would have if we had troops on both sides postured to engage should Iran decide to start swinging their sword?
However, keeping troops in either or both is not exactly sustainable or preferred. I only know of a few Soldiers who were willing to go back to either countries (a few members of my unit voluntarily deployed last Summer as Augmenties for another BN that was short-handed).
The Afghan govt is corrupt and the corruption is one of the primary issues facing the local populace.
We should have never allowed ourselves to get sucked into the whole let's promote democracy, freedom bullshit.
Same thing on this side of the pond.
Belmont31R
02-11-12, 19:57
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577209391708596680.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
montanadave
02-11-12, 20:13
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577209391708596680.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
I got no beef with flyin' these guys back to Afghanistan ... as long as they kick 'em out the door sans chute from about 25K feet.
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