Land Nav?

[Lone_Ranger]

Any recommendations, for a basic Land Navigation kit? My experience was military.

Are there options, to the GI Cammenga Military Lensatic Compass, and GTA 5-2-12 Coordinate Scale and Protractor. Or are they pretty much best bang for the buck?

(I know there's already a thread for GPS systems, I'm talking stuff that doesn't require batteries, or a satellite signal.)

[Shokr21]

I'm interested in alternatives as well.

I'm pretty good with the lensatic and protractor, but if there are better alternatives out there, well, I'm here to learn.

[sgtjosh]

I would also recommend something to keep track of your pace count.

[Jason Falla]

I am a big advocate of using MGRS and Mils as the preferred map and compass combo.

I have taught a lot of land navigation to U.S Military and it pains me to have to use Degrees rather than Mils.

Mils are my preferred format for Land Navigation, while degrees for Coastal navigation for water ops.

I use a Silva 54B prismatic compass. This is probably the best compass on the market for land navigation. I have a Silva plastic cover for it also which protects the compass dial for Military work as it normally resides in the top left shirt pocket.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHE5avQEDbb8EHPY8w-vKiqKCO-PjyYc_zXOdlZog_iHTjw4H0cz6Tms0cQQ

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y133/stuartyr/silva54-1-web.jpg

You can get any plastic protractor anywhere that has both degrees and mils either in a complete 6400/360 format or a half protractor. A good thin piece of nylon for plotting bearings is recommended.

http://www.snipersystems.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/StockMilsProtractor.jpg

https://id213.chi.us.securedata.net/mapnotes.com/merchantmanager/images/uploads/protractors.jpg

As for pace counting, I have used almost everything out there from knotted para-cord and beads, click style pace counters, pedometers and GPS wrist watches.

I will always go back to the most robust method, a metal click pace counter taped to the weapons fore grip area.

This is the best one.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ohJzGforW_E/TZ18qIVsZzI/AAAAAAAAAGU/jLQyApsw9Z0/s1600/nav_df_pace%252520counter.jpg

We offer full 5-Day Land Navigation packages. If you need further information, please contact us.

[Lone_Ranger]

I am a big advocate of using MGRS and Mils as the preferred map and compass combo.

I have taught a lot of land navigation to U.S Military and it pains me to have to use Degrees rather than Mils.

Mils are my preferred format for Land Navigation, while degrees for Coastal navigation for water ops.

I use a Silva 54B prismatic compass. This is probably the best compass on the market for land navigation. I have a Silva plastic cover for it also which protects the compass dial for Military work as it normally resides in the top left shirt pocket.



I like the MGRS. But I was taught degrees, for land navigation. "Mils were for the artillery," I was told.

I'm hearing that the military style compass, is not needed for basic land navigation. The sight is good for taking bearings to distant objects. (Like when you call for fire) but isn't necessary if you're on foot.

Does the Silva compass have tritium? Or is it luminous by shining a light on it? The GI issue comes in both versions. The tritium one is twice as much. Some say the tritium isn't worth it. Because you still have to use a flashlight to read the mils. But, it has a rotating bezel, that allows you to follow a course in the dark.

[duece71]

Great thread. I am going to have to check out the MGRS maps and see whats up. I was thinking about the compass as well, only as a back up to the GPS. Would a military tritium compass be worth it, or just get a regular compass like the one pictured above? Most of my navigation use has been of the airborne variety but I am interested in developing some Land navigation familiarity as well. Maps and compass as well as GPS useage.

[Jason Falla]

So all of units in the U.S that I have taught land navigation to have all used and been familiar with the Degrees System.

All land nav in the Australian Army is done using the Mil System. For military application there were times where we had to rapidly convert Mils to Degrees in order to direct air strikes using aircraft that could not convert Mils. This was later rectified.

I like the Mil system as it is 17.8 times more accurate than Degrees! One degree is equal to 17.8 Mils.

The Military Silva 54B Prismatic Compass does have Tritium and is very good even after quite a while operating at night. If you are conducting night navigation you will have to 'charge' the tritium with a flash of white light from time to time in order to keep the glow nice and bright while moving. Tactically, this was done using a bush hat or under a jacket or similar so not to show any white light.

I always use a head down approach to movement at night! That is check you compass card to ensure that the three dots are aligned and keep you head down looking at the compass card. Obviously looking up from time to time so you don't walk into a tree!!

The prismatic feature is good because you can sight the compass onto a tree, a feature, a star, building anything and get a much more accurate bearing from the prism than you would just moving the compass card, aligning the dots and looking down the length of the compass to the selected object. Once you have established you bearing from the map you can sight the compass in on an object and simply walk to it. You need only look down at the compass periodically for confirmation.

For military work, the compass would be put away while the patrol moved to that landmark selected through the prism, the patrol commander keeping the scouts on route using hand signals.

The other good feature of the Silva compasses is that you get a 1:50000 and 1:25000 roamer on the base plate. It is much easier to get quick bearings without using your protractor for quick obvious legs by simply aligning the Vertical lines on the compass card with the Eastings on the map. The base plate can be used to rule your bearing onto the map lightly using pencil.

This is the original Silva that I was issued. It must be 10 years old and still in good order.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/408924_362054853804794_201698463173768_1445417_1461079882_n.jpg

[Jason Falla]

Great thread. I am going to have to check out the MGRS maps and see whats up. I was thinking about the compass as well, only as a back up to the GPS. Would a military tritium compass be worth it, or just get a regular compass like the one pictured above? Most of my navigation use has been of the airborne variety but I am interested in developing some Land navigation familiarity as well. Maps and compass as well as GPS useage.

It really depends if you plan on using the compass at night? If the answer is yes then you might need to fork out the shekels for it!

Depending on the terrain you find yourself in, it may be too dangerous to move by night and you may be better racking out for the night and picking it back up in the morning.

[pmarc]

(pardon the long post)
Mr. Falla,

I do not have any experience doing night land nav, nor as a forward observer. But from my topography lessons at college, and professional experience in the field of geology, I tend to think that milliradian precision is only to be acquired if using a stable, level position, with a long sighting base and appropriate magnification.

Even if all previous considerations are awfully wrong, math still applies.

A circumference has 360 degrees, 2 Pi radians or 6238 milliradians.
1 milliradian equals 0.00017 degrees, while 1 arc-second equals 0.00027 degrees.
Even if military compasses are divided in 6200 or 6400 mils, the above numbers are correct up to the 5th place.

While I was working at a mine in SE Brazil, the survey crew usually spat out angle measurements that amounted to 2 arc-seconds. And that is with a stable, leveled base and precision instrument, which a compass has not and is not.

Further, the error from a 1-degree off compass reading is in the order of 1,7%. So, for a ded reckon lenght of 1000m, one would veer off-course only 17m.

Considering that one would (presumably) rarely cover that long distance without looking around, that 17m mistake would me corrected long before the end of the 1000m leg.

Also, humans rarely walk in a straight line, and in a wooded area, the total distance, due to walking around trees and other obstruction would probably be much more than those 17m.

Using radians (or mils) does have other advantages, though.
What I know that from a known distance from an object is just a matter of a simple multiplication to get the height or length from said object. If using degrees, one needs to use a trigonometric table before doing said multiplication.
The inverse operation allows to get distance from a known height (or length), and that, AFAIK, is the method used with the mil-dot reticle on rifle scopes.

So, if you prefer the mils, just state so. No need to state the precision, which I hopefully made the case, is only of interest to surveyors and engineers.

Other than what I said regarding the mils, I agree with you.

P.S.: Geologists are well known to be fond of the awkward quadrant compasses... :ph34r:

[Shokr21]

Wow!

Great replies and info shared. This guy will be sticking with degrees, it's what I know, and it's worked for me in application.

Thanks for the replies

[Jason Falla]

(pardon the long post)
Mr. Falla,

I do not have any experience doing night land nav, nor as a forward observer. But from my topography lessons at college, and professional experience in the field of geology, I tend to think that milliradian precision is only to be acquired if using a stable, level position, with a long sighting base and appropriate magnification.

Even if all previous considerations are awfully wrong, math still applies.

A circumference has 360 degrees, 2 Pi radians or 6238 milliradians.
1 milliradian equals 0.00017 degrees, while 1 arc-second equals 0.00027 degrees.
Even if military compasses are divided in 6200 or 6400 mils, the above numbers are correct up to the 5th place.

While I was working at a mine in SE Brazil, the survey crew usually spat out angle measurements that amounted to 2 arc-seconds. And that is with a stable, leveled base and precision instrument, which a compass has not and is not.

Further, the error from a 1-degree off compass reading is in the order of 1,7%. So, for a ded reckon lenght of 1000m, one would veer off-course only 17m.

Considering that one would (presumably) rarely cover that long distance without looking around, that 17m mistake would me corrected long before the end of the 1000m leg.

Also, humans rarely walk in a straight line, and in a wooded area, the total distance, due to walking around trees and other obstruction would probably be much more than those 17m.

Using radians (or mils) does have other advantages, though.
What I know that from a known distance from an object is just a matter of a simple multiplication to get the height or length from said object. If using degrees, one needs to use a trigonometric table before doing said multiplication.
The inverse operation allows to get distance from a known height (or length), and that, AFAIK, is the method used with the mil-dot reticle on rifle scopes.

So, if you prefer the mils, just state so. No need to state the precision, which I hopefully made the case, is only of interest to surveyors and engineers.

Other than what I said regarding the mils, I agree with you.

P.S.: Geologists are well known to be fond of the awkward quadrant compasses... :ph34r:

Pmarc, it's quite clear that you know what you are talking about when it comes to mathematical equations and survey.

The Army uses Mils for many practical uses as 1 mil subtends 1 m at 1000 m. The importance of using this system is to minimize as much error as possible. There have been times during my military career that we needed to move across very featureless terrain for long durations and distances and end up with extreme accuracy by finding very small check points. Our selection course is a good example of this, check points are anywhere from 5 to 12 km apart with nothing but desert and salt bush to content with! This type of terrain can also be found in the frozen areas of the arctic circle. While in Norway we were required to move over featureless terrain for several hours on ski's to reach our destination. When there is a lack of visual aids and reference points, one must rely on bearing and paces in order to maintain extreme accuracy. The mil system allows us to minimize errors created by human error in plotting bearings and compass setting while maximizing accuracy over ground.

When there are terrain features that can be used in the aid of navigation, map to ground, or moving tactically using the ground to your advantage, you are correct in saying that any error would be absorbed by the method of movement. But with such a wide area of operations in which we find ourselves, the mil system is the preferred system.

[pmarc]

There have been times during my military career that we needed to move across very featureless terrain for long durations and distances and end up with extreme accuracy by finding very small check points. Our selection course is a good example of this, check points are anywhere from 5 to 12 km apart with nothing but desert and salt bush to content with!

Hehe, that is what experience brings to the table =]
I have read about that. But not having experienced it, makes it a situation I can not relate.
All my work/play has been in feature packed environments.

I can appreciate the importance of bearing precision in featureless country.



But with such a wide area of operations in which we find ourselves, the mil system is the preferred system.

I completely understand now. Thanks for the kind words.

[Jason Falla]

Hehe, that is what experience brings to the table =]
I have read about that. But not having experienced it, makes it a situation I can not relate.
All my work/play has been in feature packed environments.

I can appreciate the importance of bearing precision in featureless country.



I completely understand now. Thanks for the kind words.

Pmarc, you got it brother! Sometimes it's difficult to relay every bit of information using a forum like this and vital aspects of information can be left out. You are obviously very knowledgable and very skilled at what you do. Keep up the good work!

Take care,

[Lone_Ranger]

When there are terrain features that can be used in the aid of navigation, map to ground, or moving tactically using the ground to your advantage, you are correct in saying that any error would be absorbed by the method of movement. But with such a wide area of operations in which we find ourselves, the mil system is the preferred system.


That makes sense. When the US Army taught me land nav, it was as an E5/Sgt, and they were still mentally fighting the Cold War, and preparing us for operating in Europe. Plenty of terrain features. Sadly, from what I hear, they are not teaching map & compass land nav, on that level anymore. They are relying on GPS.

[Lone_Ranger]

The Military Silva 54B Prismatic Compass does have Tritium and is very good even after quite a while operating at night. If you are conducting night navigation you will have to 'charge' the tritium with a flash of white light from time to time in order to keep the glow nice and bright while moving. Tactically, this was done using a bush hat or under a jacket or similar so not to show any white light.



On the Cammenga Military Lensatic Compass, the one that goes for about $45, is like that. Phosphorescent Illumination that needs to b charged, with a flashlight.

The Cammenga Tritium version, runs about $85, and is self-luminescent. Like night sights. They don't need charged. It will work in complete darkness.

I can't seem to find the Silva Expedition 4 Military, or Silva 4B NATO, for sale, in the states. I can get it on line, but I have to ship from the UK. Same, with the Sunto MB-6 (Recta DP), the Swiss Army Compass.

Other models of both brands are available. It's hard to tell which ones have the necessary features.

What's the difference between a prismatic, lensatic, and a baseplate?

[Lone_Ranger]

Great thread. I am going to have to check out the MGRS maps and see whats up. I was thinking about the compass as well, only as a back up to the GPS. Would a military tritium compass be worth it, or just get a regular compass like the one pictured above? Most of my navigation use has been of the airborne variety but I am interested in developing some Land navigation familiarity as well. Maps and compass as well as GPS useage.


US Army FM3-25.26 Map Reading and Land Navigation
http://www.uvm.edu/~goldbar/FM3_25.26.pdf

Chapter 4-3 explains Military Grid Reference System

[pmarc]

That makes sense. When the US Army taught me land nav, it was as an E5/Sgt, and they were still mentally fighting the Cold War, and preparing us for operating in Europe. Plenty of terrain features. Sadly, from what I hear, they are not teaching map & compass land nav, on that level anymore. They are relying on GPS.

That is unfortunate since it is quite possible to put up a GPS jammer.
I am aware that the military use a different protocol and frequency than civi, but the signal is quite faint.

The receivers 15 years ago had problems with overcast/rainy days, and with the jungle cover too.

I have no doubt that China, Russia, maybe Iran have the means to severely degrade GPS signal. Maybe not countrywide, but they might do for select areas.

[Jason Falla]

On the Cammenga Military Lensatic Compass, the one that goes for about $45, is like that. Phosphorescent Illumination that needs to b charged, with a flashlight.

The Cammenga Tritium version, runs about $85, and is self-luminescent. Like night sights. They don't need charged. It will work in complete darkness.

I can't seem to find the Silva Expedition 4 Military, or Silva 4B NATO, for sale, in the states. I can get it on line, but I have to ship from the UK. Same, with the Sunto MB-6 (Recta DP), the Swiss Army Compass.

Other models of both brands are available. It's hard to tell which ones have the necessary features.

What's the difference between a prismatic, lensatic, and a baseplate?

The Silva 54B has Tritium and is self-luminecent but once you have the compass for several years the tritium begins to get dull and a quick hit of white light brightens it up.

The base plate is good because of the advantages of the on board roamer and ruler.

The 54 series, I believe are prismatic. The B I think refers to the system on the compass card, degrees or Mils. Also make sure that you are buying northern hemisphere version. On the back of the dial there will be small lettering that says MS or MN that denotes what hemisphere you are in. I believe its Meridian North and Meridian South.

The Lensatic compass are issued also to the Australian Army but SOF get the Silva. THe Lensatic is a robust MilSpec compass that has a prism that you can use to sight also. It has a compass card that you can lock down after you take your bearing.

I just prefer the base plate style compass. They both work well, just depends on what you like.

[reccerecon]

The Army still teaches some land nav to everyone at Basic, Combat Arms naturally get a lot more training at OSUT and at their unit. If anyone is wanting a MGRS map they can be custom made by mytopo.com, I've been more then happy with the ones I've had made. As far as I know they are the only place to get MGRS maps, they even have a PC program to make your own. I understand what is being said about using mils, I too have used degrees for almost all land nav. It honestly gives me a headache just thinking about doing the conversions though.

[Deuce]

The Army still teaches some land nav to everyone at Basic, Combat Arms naturally get a lot more training at OSUT and at their unit. If anyone is wanting a MGRS map they can be custom made by mytopo.com, I've been more then happy with the ones I've had made. As far as I know they are the only place to get MGRS maps, they even have a PC program to make your own. I understand what is being said about using mils, I too have used degrees for almost all land nav. It honestly gives me a headache just thinking about doing the conversions though.

I concur, old school land navigation is still alive and well at least among the Infantry. I can't speak for other MOS's but I know I've seen the support guys and gals out there as well. They may not get it as extensively but they're at least given familiarization.

Sent from my SPH-M930BST using Tapatalk

[Lone_Ranger]

Wow! That Silva 5/54 6400B is available through Orienteering Service of Australia. It's $265 AUD which is like $285 USD not including shipping. It's official Australian Army issue. The Cammenga tritium is starting to look like a decent choice. And, I already have experience with it. (I do like the base plate ones)

[Heavy Metal]

The Silva 54B has Tritium and is self-luminecent but once you have the compass for several years the tritium begins to get dull and a quick hit of white light brightens it up.

The base plate is good because of the advantages of the on board roamer and ruler.

The 54 series, I believe are prismatic. The B I think refers to the system on the compass card, degrees or Mils. Also make sure that you are buying northern hemisphere version. On the back of the dial there will be small lettering that says MS or MN that denotes what hemisphere you are in. I believe its Meridian North and Meridian South.

The Lensatic compass are issued also to the Australian Army but SOF get the Silva. THe Lensatic is a robust MilSpec compass that has a prism that you can use to sight also. It has a compass card that you can lock down after you take your bearing.

I just prefer the base plate style compass. They both work well, just depends on what you like.

The Tritium on the compass works just like night sites on a pistol, the beta decay of Tritum generates a free electron that excites the phosphor coating to produce a photon of light. The half-life of Tritium is around 12 years meaining that after 12 years, the device should lose about half of its luminesence. The phosphor remains in the sight even after the Tritium has decayed, it should still be chargable with light like a luminous phosphor strip, just as you described.

[Lone_Ranger]

What threw me off, is Silva's own website.

Expedition 4 Military says: Illumination / active time after activation in light - Yes 4 hours Luminous compound - Tritium compound 80 mCi
(This is supposed to be the one that needs 'charged')

Expedition 4 NATO: Illumination / active time after activation in light - Yes 7.5 hours Luminous compound - Everglow™
(This is the one with the yellow and black, 'radioactive' warning on it)

[Jason Falla]

The Tritium on the compass works just like night sites on a pistol, the beta decay of Tritum generates a free electron that excites the phosphor coating to produce a photon of light. The half-life of Tritium is around 12 years meaining that after 12 years, the device should lose about half of its luminesence. The phosphor remains in the sight even after the Tritium has decayed, it should still be chargable with light like a luminous phosphor strip, just as you described.

That's good info, thanks Heavy Metal. That time frame is about right, although I have had tritium burn out earlier!

Do you know if there is a anything that will decrease the luminescence? Will hitting it with white light affect it at all?

[Jason Falla]

What threw me off, is Silva's own website.

Expedition 4 Military says: Illumination / active time after activation in light - Yes 4 hours Luminous compound - Tritium compound 80 mCi
(This is supposed to be the one that needs 'charged')

Expedition 4 NATO: Illumination / active time after activation in light - Yes 7.5 hours Luminous compound - Everglow™
(This is the one with the yellow and black, 'radioactive' warning on it)

I think that Silva has changed some of the names of their products over the years and also changed the product slightly?

I have the 54B with the radioactive symbol and light Heavy Metal posted the tritium lost some of its luminescence after quite a few years and needs to be hit with white light now. I guess that's life!

[Heavy Metal]

That's good info, thanks Heavy Metal. That time frame is about right, although I have had tritium burn out earlier!

Do you know if there is a anything that will decrease the luminescence? Will hitting it with white light affect it at all?

I don't think so Jason. The process is atomic and not chemical. It is a radioactive beta decay process. Tritium decays into Helium-3, a heavy isotope of Helium while giving off an electron. It is the electron that excites the phosphor molecule into giving off a photon of light.

The only thing that I can see that could have an effect on the luminosity besides leaking(which would allow the gas to rapidly escape) would be some kind of shock damage to the phopsphor coating on the inside of the tube. I suspect the actual glow chemical used for the phosphor is Strontium Aluminate due to the green hue on most pistol nite sights but I am not sure.

[Heavy Metal]

BTW, I have a Stockard and Yale USGI Lensatic Compass with Tritum inserts that I have somewhere. I bet it is pushing 20 years old. It would be interesting to see how much glow is left in the Tritium inserts. I will try and find it sometime this week.

I put it away for safe keeping and mainly use a Silva now when I need one.

[Jason Falla]

BTW, I have a Stockard and Yale USGI Lensatic Compass with Tritum inserts that I have somewhere. I bet it is pushing 20 years old. It would be interesting to see how much glow is left in the Tritium inserts. I will try and find it sometime this week.

I put it away for safe keeping and mainly use a Silva now when I need one.

That's awesome info, thanks Heavy Metal!

Silva compasses are the go for sure! I used to live just down the road from Silva Australia and often frequented the shop by spend my hard earned money!

[NinjaMedic]

Just FYI the new US Topo 7.5-Minute Series Quadrangle maps downloadable for free from the USGS website are a 1:24,000 scale product with USNG/MGRS grid lines.

For those who don't know US government and public safety agencies are supposed to be transitioning to using the US National Grid (USNG) for lad based geo location, and USNG is identical for all practical purposes to the MGRS within the CONUS. This will be a huge enhancement to emergency response operations once everyone gets on board and transitions over. In the past there has not been any established standard for georeferencing which as I am sure everyone can imagine becomes a problem in large scale multi-jurisdiction responses. This issue finally came to a point with the massive response efforts to Hurricane Katrina with aviation, land, and marine assets from civilian and military agencies all over the country. If these responders had GPS capabilities it was and still is via hand held commercial gps units obtained at the local sporting goods retailers and set to whatever arbitrary position reporting format the manufacturer, store, employee, agency, or jurisdiction decided was easiest to use.

The result of this is that for those of you familiar and comfortable with MGRS you should see much wider availability of compatible maps and equipment in the near future, and eventually this is likely to be by far the predominate system that anyone uses or learns other than pilots.

[Arctic1]

@pmarc:

One other element to military use of mils is that everyone uses it, at least in the norwegian mil. We use it for calls for fire (calling in mortar or artillery strikes), for providing a direction to a target or observation from an OP, for coordinating a perimiter defence as far as sectors of fire goes, direction to a reference point etc.

With the digital tools available, like BMS, digital maps etc, the added precision of mils is a huge benefit. You can for instance plot the position of an OP, and based on the OP's mil reading you can get a very precise observation sector, increasing overall SA as far as the ISR resources are concerned. As an example.

Also, like you said, if you are off by 17 mils, that is only 17 meters at a 1000 meters. But, if you are off by 4-5 degrees on your reading at that range, that equals 71-89 meters. That is a wasted fire mission with mortars.


---------------------------------------------------------

When it comes to land nav, we use range cards for our patrols. They consist of the following points:

Distance
Bearing
Terrain
Landmark
Time

We plot these for each leg of the infil, in order to save time in regards to map reading. It takes a bit of time before the patrol, and you have to do a very thorough map study, but once you have done that these work very well in certain terrain. The most common error we see with these though, is people exxagerating the distance of a leg. No more than one kilometer is our reccomendation. Also, people underestimate the time actually required to cover distance if heavily loaded up.

An example:

Leg 1:
Distance: 750 meters
Bearing: 1250 mils
Terrain: Pine forest, slight incline, hilltops to the north and south, river running east-west.
Landmark: Fork in river
Time: 1 hour

Leg 2:
Distance: 500 meters
Bearing: 2800 mils
Terrain: Pine forest, slight decline, river running NW-SE, hills to the S-SE
Landmark: Bridge over river
Time: 40 minutes


By using this, and trusting the lead scout, you can cut down on map reading time. Just plot the correct bearing on the compass, make sure you keep control of the terrain. When you reach the end of the leg, by visually seeing the reference point, you plot the nest bearing and keep on going.

You can plot the MGRS grid durig planning, and verify at the end of each leg making sure you are at the right place.

We use 1:50000 maps.

[reccerecon]

I can't speck for all units, but we do similar with strip maps. Also in the right terrain using aerial/satellite images with an overlay can also save time on map checks. Like you said your pace will be affected under a heavy load and something to keep in mind is how your pace count will be affected. Learn your pace count for going up hill and down, in sand, snow and rain, with head and tail winds, limited visibility, using NODs, etc. when ever possible or at least get an idea how much it can be affected. I've seen a lot of guys who didn't think about that and they ended up off course or ass backwards lost.

[streck]

I use a Silva 54B prismatic compass.

Jason,

Just to throw this out there for discussion but here in the States, Silva USA was bought by some other company and does not seem to put out the same quality products.

Brunton bought Silva Sweden which is probably the compass you have. At least Brunton is reported to honor the original Silva lifetime warrantees where the US company will not.

[Jason Falla]

Jason,

Just to throw this out there for discussion but here in the States, Silva USA was bought by some other company and does not seem to put out the same quality products.

Brunton bought Silva Sweden which is probably the compass you have. At least Brunton is reported to honor the original Silva lifetime warrantees where the US company will not.

Very typical! I checked the Brunton webpage, very ordinary. If anyone is looking to order a Silva 54B Prismatic or similar, I would just order from O/S and take the hit on shipping. I have had such good success with mine that I would never use another compass. Again just remember what hemisphere your in and order the appropriate one.

Good info thanks streck.

[streck]

We offer full 5-Day Land Navigation packages. If you need further information, please contact us.

PM inbound.

Definitely interested in learning to use maps that do not have "Here Be Dragons" printed on them.....:p

[Lone_Ranger]

Just FYI the new US Topo 7.5-Minute Series Quadrangle maps downloadable for free from the USGS website are a 1:24,000 scale product with USNG/MGRS grid lines.

The result of this is that for those of you familiar and comfortable with MGRS you should see much wider availability of compatible maps and equipment in the near future, and eventually this is likely to be by far the predominate system that anyone uses or learns other than pilots.

That should be helpful! Thanks, too! You saved me some return shipping. I mail ordered a map and protractor. I went with the Improved Military Style UTM/MGRS Tool, which has the 1:24,000 scale on it. I almost ordered the standard Graphic Training Aid 5-2-12 Coordinate Scale and Protractor. Like I had in the Army. It's $2 cheaper, but it doesn't have that 1:24,000 scale.

[Tortuga]

Old school map and compass work is still alive and well at our school as well. We spend more than a few hours in classroom and prac ap with Suunto base plate compasses, 1:25,000 maps, and the 5-2-12 Coordinate Scale and Protractor. Once proficient with those, students are allowed to check their work on GPS. If for nothing else than get practice with their survival electronics. They aren't quite as intuitive as commerical GPS.

I tend to keep my nav kit pretty simple. A good MC-2 global, a variety of protactors (including one scaled to a Delorme Gazatteer), a map case or a zip-loc bag, and a selection of map pens.