View Full Version : The strange case of FBI breaching doors with "chainsaws"?
Cesiumsponge
02-01-12, 19:39
This made me scratch my head a fair bit. I'm not addressing the fact it was the wrong address (a big problem in itself), but what got me curious is the FBI doing breaching with...a chainsaw?
Maybe it wasn't a chainsaw and something similar to an K-12 extrication saw and it was a metal skin door...no one appears to know. Is there another way to attack a metal door with something other than a gas-powered saw? It would seem (to me) tactically unsound to operate power tools to visibly cut an opening in front of the door, nothing more than lousy concealment, when a suspected drug dealer (what the agents were up against) can simply punch through with a firearm while they're cutting away. The element of surprise is long gone.
I'm going out on a limb and thinking if this happened in an armed home, a reasonable and prudent person would have no reason to believe that law enforcement was executing a warrant. I'd expect either a knocking and loud announcement or a battering ram with the door swinging open with a no-knock.
Thoughts?
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/01/31/fbi-uses-chainsaw-in-raid-on-wrong-fitchburg-apartment/
NCPatrolAR
02-01-12, 19:44
Probably done to defeat a wooden crossbar on the door
Robb Jensen
02-01-12, 21:31
Very strange indeed, when I was a Firefighter I used K-12s for ventilation (roofs) but could cut throught walls etc if needed too. For forced entry I used a Haligan bar & axe, sometimes a K tool (rips deadbolts apart like a pretzel) and hydraulic rabbit tool for solid steel doors and occasionally the ram off of one of the the ladder trucks.
I would agree that if they were using a chainsaw then they probably had intel which indicated that the door had a crossbar.
Never seen a reinforced steel "ghetto gate", have you? A K-12 or similar is an absolute piece of breaching gear necessity.
Robb Jensen
02-01-12, 23:45
Seen some of those torn off the structure with a large chain attached to the SWAT vehicle.
Seen some of those torn off the structure with a large chain attached to the SWAT vehicle.
That method has limited utility from the second floor of an apartment building on up, as well as in units not directly facing the street.
Hill Billy Sappers.
It's a new reality show coming out this month!
They're very lucky it wasn't someone who carries a gun and prepared for a home invasion type of scenario.
Cesiumsponge
02-02-12, 10:41
They're very lucky it wasn't someone who carries a gun and prepared for a home invasion type of scenario.
They're very lucky it wasn't an armed scumbag on the ball. Given that drug raids are supposed to be uberdangerous, it just seems tactically unsound to spend what...10 seconds cutting a hole through the front door with a gas-powered tool. That kind of nullifies the surprise of a no-knock warrant and gives both a visual and audible clue to a bad guy that at least one person is actively behind the front door.
Hill Billy Sappers.
It's a new reality show coming out this month!
That right there is funny. I don't care who you are...
No doubt. Someone jams a chainsaw through my door and it's MAG DUMP time.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5707/leatherfacev.jpg
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 10:58
They're very lucky it wasn't an armed scumbag on the ball. Given that drug raids are supposed to be uberdangerous, it just seems tactically unsound to spend what...10 seconds cutting a hole through the front door with a gas-powered tool. That kind of nullifies the surprise of a no-knock warrant and gives both a visual and audible clue to a bad guy that at least one person is actively behind the front door.
The vast majority of warrant services aren't "no knocks". I've performed several hundred and have yet to be on one
The warrant was served at 6:04 AM. It was probably like my state where knock warrants are only served 6AM to 10PM. Doing it right at 6AM is most likely to catch a late night drug dealer asleep. The door appears to be a shitty, hollow wood apartment door. It appears they cut it horizontally in the middle like a Dutch door. I see no benefit to what they did and how they did it. :(
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 12:09
After looking at the picture of the door it appears that they were treating the door as possibly being barricaded. If the intel they had stated that the residence was normally barricaded/barred then I can see why a chainsaw was used.
The warrant was served at 6:04 AM. It was probably like my state where knock warrants are only served 6AM to 10PM.
Statutory requirement, court-imposed rule, or local policy?
Cesiumsponge
02-02-12, 12:44
How much time is typically allowed after an announcement before the door goes down? I think most normal folks are conditioned to climb out of bed to investigate if someone at 6am was shouting "FBI!" Or "police!". Given this was the wrong address, a perfectly innocent person doesn't seem to have a rational reason to sit on their ass unless there was insufficient time to respond.
Statutory requirement, court-imposed rule, or local policy?
State law.
If the intel they had stated that the residence was normally barricaded/barred then I can see why a chainsaw was used.
What "intel"? Their intel is obviously useless or they're illiterate. They went to a wrong apartment number and if they'd taken the time to do proper reconnaissance and verify their information they wouldn't have ****ed up and gone in to the wrong home through the front door with a chainsaw scaring a woman and her child half to death.
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 15:09
What "intel"?
I couldnt tell you since I wasnt sitting in the briefing that they had prior to the service. I do know that information is put out in said briefings that determine methods of entry to be used. And since chainsaws arent a normal entry tool, then common sense would say they were told something in the briefing that caused them to use the chainsaw to gain entry.
Their intel is obviously useless or they're illiterate.
Going to the wrong apartment has nothing to do with the information they were provided during their briefing.
1. I couldnt tell you since I wasnt sitting in the briefing that they had prior to the service.
2. Going to the wrong apartment has nothing to do with the information they were provided during their briefing.
#2 is an assumption is #1 if true. ;)
State law.
No exceptions? No "night time service" provision? No-knocks can and have been pretty abused, but that knocks out quite a tool in the toolbox.
And since chainsaws arent a normal entry tool, then common sense would say they were told something in the briefing that caused them to use the chainsaw to gain entry.
I can't ever remember using a chainsaw, or even taking one along. Halligans, rams, bolt cutters, breaching rounds, and boom-boom putty, but never a chainsaw. I'd like to read the affidavit and op-plan.
I'm all for giving LE the "tools they need to do the job" but somehow I just don't think anyone is going to equate "chainsaw" with "search warrant" so much as deranged killers. And it is all too common for home invaders to scream "police, FBI or even IRS" and nylon raid jackets can be bought anywhere.
I think I have also officially upgraded my typical home defense weapon from a pistol caliber SMG to a AR SBR. If you are going to chainsaw a persons door, you better be 100% you have the right door because some of us are going to repel all boarders to the best of our ability.
The FBI response stuns me the most, they were way too cavalier about chainsawing the wrong door. A simple apology and willingness to replace the door for the landlord doesn't even begin to address the wrong that was done. Their response indicates that they believe this to be some kind of routine and acceptable error which doesn't require any major changes.
The reality is they are going to get the wrong door one day and innocent homeowners, FBI agents or both are going to end up dead. It is of course inevitable that errors will occur and eventually somebody will get the wrong address, and it is critical that the law abiding home owners (who may be armed) in that situation clearly and positively be able to identify the members of law enforcement and distinguish them from home invaders (possibly posing as law enforcement) during such a situation.
I think most reasonable people would fire on anyone entering with a chainsaw.
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-02-12, 18:25
When I did VBSS in the navy we had a deck saw at our disposal.
The reality is they are going to get the wrong door one day and innocent homeowners.....are going to end up dead.
Already happened. Thank you "War on Drugs."
I'm waiting for the day when an entry team hits the wrong house and encounters somebody more serious than some bleary-eyed homeowner with a hunting rifle. It will be VERY interesting to find out if "good faith error" extends to the citizenry when the cop ox gets gored.
ETA:
I think most reasonable people would fire on anyone entering with a chainsaw.
In this day of home invasion, particularly in some areas, I think most reasonable people will shoot anyone entering their home using force, regardless of entry tool used.
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 19:01
It will be VERY interesting to find out if "good faith error" extends to the citizenry
Already has
Already has
Really? Wow.
Can you post the case?
Cesiumsponge
02-02-12, 19:32
Jose Guerena comes to mind when I think of botched drug raid. Except there wasn't a happy ending, no drugs were found, the department changed their story multiple times surrounding Jose's death and tried to character assassinate the Marine, saying "he had guns and body armor" and "a piece of police uniform".
I'm no secret squirrel...but man...this is the footage from that raid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak
The only case that comes to mind where a homeowner shot and killed an officer whom he thought was breaking in was Ryan Frederick. He is serving 10 years in the pen and that was "lenient" given all the questionable events leading up to the shooting and the massive community support.
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 20:23
Jose Guerena comes to mind when I think of botched drug raid.
I dont see how the Guerena raid was "botched". Correct address, multiple knock and announcements, everyone in uniform, etc.
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 20:26
Really? Wow.
Can you post the case?
The one case that immediately pops into my mind involved a home owner that shot a police officer that had entered his residence while investigating an alarm activation. I dont remember exactly when or where it occurred.
Cesiumsponge
02-02-12, 21:09
Botched because the intel claims he was a drug dealer or dressed up as a cop to rob other drug dealers? (the story has changed several times). At this point, all we have to go on is the police report, and the story of neighbors and the family. No such evidence turned up. As of now, it's all speculation. No details have been released on how this information was obtained (notoriously spotty practice of paid informants? observation?) Folks and even a school have been raided for growing what turns out to be tomato plants. Botched intel.
NCPatrolAR
02-02-12, 21:13
Botched because the intel claims he was a drug dealer or dressed up as a cop to rob other drug dealers? (the story has changed several times). At this point, all we have to go on is the police report, and the story of neighbors and the family. No such evidence turned up. As of now, it's all speculation. No details have been released on how this information was obtained (notoriously spotty practice of paid informants? observation?) Folks and even a school have been raided for growing what turns out to be tomato plants. Botched intel.
And none of this has to do with what this thread is about. Lets get back to the original topic, or something close to it.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5707/leatherfacev.jpg
That's what I would imagine too if someone were punching their way through my front door with a chainsaw!
Not sure what I would do but I got to tell you it would be a terrifying moment for sure!
Heavy Metal
02-03-12, 21:16
Probably done to defeat a wooden crossbar on the door
I can imagine an easy counter would be to run a 220 line across the door with the other end of the circuit at the doormat on the outside and bypass the breaker. I do not like the idea of sticking a saw into an unknown.
Here's a great example of a botched raid. It seems all it would have taken was for one person to make a few simple calls. Unfortunately that's not as sexy as gearing up and slamming the door.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html
sniperfrog
02-04-12, 20:38
Chainsaws and cut-off saws have been used for breaching by military SOF for quite some time.
If the door has a shit ton of locks it can be a pain in the ass to mechanically breach it. They're going to know you're out there while you're muckin' around with the door. The saw is arguably quicker in certain situations, especially if there is a crossbar.
When you have to get in to a room you do what you gotta do. Explosives are usually the the best way to go but may not always be an option.
Broco torches work good for certain situations as well.
Moose-Knuckle
02-04-12, 21:57
Chainsaws and cut-off saws have been used for breaching by military SOF for quite some time.
The key word here is military.
In this particular incident we have a US citizen, a single mom at home with her infant daughter in their apartment, not some tango in a compound in Shitakistan.
NCPatrolAR
02-04-12, 22:16
The key word here is military.
In this particular incident we have a US citizen, a single mom at home with her infant daughter in their apartment, not some tango in a compound in Shitakistan.
Chainsaws have been in use by law enforcement for years. Do people think this is the first time it's occurred?
CarlosDJackal
02-05-12, 01:54
I wonder if they were referring to the one shown in the image in this website: Gasoline Powered Rescue Saw (http://www.broco-rankin.com/broco/m_rescueblades.cfm)
Here's a great example of a botched raid. It seems all it would have taken was for one person to make a few simple calls. Unfortunately that's not as sexy as gearing up and slamming the door.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html
Drug runners were shipping packages to the addresses of people who had no idea what was going on, then attempting to retrieve them before the residents got home.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/24/AR2011012405711.html
The dog turned to run from that deputy, who shot the dog twice, Calvo said.
Calvo said the deputies who invaded his home were not told that no one in the home had any criminal record.
The lawsuit alleged that deputies failed to "knock and announce" their presence before storming in. Some deputies were under the impression that police had obtained a "no knock" warrant, which police had not applied for, Maloney said.
County police officers and sheriff's deputies also failed to consult Berwyn Heights police before the raid.
Days after the raid, police said that Calvo and Tomsic knew nothing about the package of marijuana and had nothing to do with the drug trade.
An internal sheriff's department investigation found no wrongdoing by deputies. Then-Sheriff Michael A. Jackson said his deputies "did their jobs to the fullest extent of their abilities."
Their abilities suck.
I think this might have gone over better if maybe the FBI just apologized. "Our bad, heres some money for a new door". Why not just admitt you're wrong apologize, fixed what you broke and move on??
I'm just glad nobody shot at them, because i dont think they'd be able to tell the tale later......swiss cheese...
NCPatrolAR
02-05-12, 16:49
I think this might have gone over better if maybe the FBI just apologized. "Our bad, heres some money for a new door". Why not just admitt you're wrong apologize, fixed what you broke and move on??
According to the article they did apologize and are paying the landlord for a new door.
Moose-Knuckle
02-07-12, 16:17
Chainsaws have been in use by law enforcement for years. Do people think this is the first time it's occurred?
I don't know what other people think, but as for me, no I do not believe that this is the first time that US LE has used power tools of one sort or another to gain entry into a structure.
The problem is they need to get the right location so as to not terrorize the home owner and destroy private property.
I don't think anyone in this thread has an issue with LE using various tools they need to get the job done, the issue is sawing down the wrong door, kicking in the wrong door, et al.
Sending a Public Relations Officer by to apologize after you had your door buzz sawed, guns stuck in your face, and prevented from comforting your petrified toddler really doesn’t cut it for me. . .
I'm all for giving LE the "tools they need to do the job" but somehow I just don't think anyone is going to equate "chainsaw" with "search warrant" so much as deranged killers. And it is all too common for home invaders to scream "police, FBI or even IRS" and nylon raid jackets can be bought anywhere.
In this day of home invasion, particularly in some areas, I think most reasonable people will shoot anyone entering their home using force, regardless of entry tool used.
An innocent homeowner's first thought is likely never going to be that the armed individuals forcing the door are LEOs. Is there any practical approach the homeowner can take that might avoid injury or loss of life on both sides given that all one ever hears about is the need to act quickly and decisively in a home invasion scenario?
NCPatrolAR
02-07-12, 17:01
I don't think anyone in this thread has an issue with LE using various tools they need to get the job done, the issue is sawing down the wrong door, kicking in the wrong door, et al.
Funny, the OP says this thread has nothing to do with the wrong address but is about the use of a chainsaw during the entry.
Sending a Public Relations Officer by to apologize after you had your door buzz sawed, guns stuck in your face, and prevented from comforting your petrified toddler really doesn’t cut it for me. . .
Where was it said that a PAO came by?
Chainsaws are not new for breaching they just don't get used often and they don't get much press.
It would be a breach of OPSEC to discuss when you would use them but they are very effective for a number of specific applications where other breaching methods are slower or ineffective.
Circular saws like the K-12 also have their place. It is all about looking at the target, evaluating the intel, and choosing the best tool for the job.
Cesiumsponge
02-07-12, 17:40
Yeah, I was interested in the validity of a chainsaw as a breaching tool because it appears obnoxiously loud and flies against the idea of a surprise entry. Invariably a wrong-address drug raid was a hot-button topic and it drifted a bit. We've got no further updates from the press or FBI so at this point its all speculation and for some folks here, drawing from personal experience.
Moose-Knuckle
02-07-12, 20:40
Funny, the OP says this thread has nothing to do with the wrong address but is about the use of a chainsaw during the entry.
So is it forbidden to discuss other FACTS about this particular incident due to the OP not discussing them himself?
Where was it said that a PAO came by?
From the article linked in post #1 of this thread:
"Sanchez says another agent came by later that day to offer an apology, but it was one that Sanchez felt wasn’t quite genuine."
Would this not be a role of the FBI OPA?
NCPatrolAR
02-07-12, 21:05
So is it forbidden to discuss other FACTS about this particular incident due to the OP not discussing them himself?
If you want to talk about wrong addresses being hit then create a thread about it. This thread isnt about that hence the reason it isnt being discussed.
Would this not be a role of the FBI OPA?
I cant speak for the FBI, but I know our PAO isnt coming out for something like that. Such a situation would be handled by the supervisor of the agents/officers that did the warrant service.
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