Infantry Reloading

[Danny Boy]

So I'm a medic attached to an infantry platoon. Today we were out training and the Sgt had a little class on reloading an M4 on an empty magazine. His method, and the one preferred by the E6 and LT above him, is to take a knee, draw a fresh mag, make an L shape on the empty magazine and remove it and insert the fresh mag (like a tactical reload) and then try and finger bang the bolt release with an empty mag in your hand and then try and stow the mag either in your vest, dumper or cargo pocket then get back on target.

Me, being the dumb ass know nothing POG that I am, asked why we don't just release the magazine onto the ground and perform an unimpeded reload and then pick up the spent mag(s) and secure it when time and opportunity permits. I was told that magazine retention to resupply later is more important then letting your empties hit the floor and forgetting them when you take off.

Now, I get why it's important to keep your mags. I've had prior instructors (mil contractors) that teach to get rid of the mag straight away and the reasons make sense. Do I from now on double up on training to do things two ways, suck it up and just do it their way or just practice the way that keeps my weapon loaded and ready the quickest? Either way I'm keeping my mouth shut from now on.

[J8127]

He did every step absolutely wrong and will get a soldier killed that way.

[QuietShootr]

He did every step absolutely wrong and will get a soldier killed that way.

This.

[globeguy]

He did every step absolutely wrong and will get a soldier killed that way.
What should he have done? I also think that he is wrong but when I ask myself "what is the correct way?" I can't come up with a definitive answer.

[thopkins22]

RetreatHell was paralyzed because of bullshit like that.

His story. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540

[Heavy Metal]

It is amazing how the Military can bring Burger King and KFC into the area of operations today but it has a problem re-supplying something slightly more complicated than a soda can to our troops.

[J8127]

What should he have done? I also think that he is wrong but when I ask myself "what is the correct way?" I can't come up with a definitive answer.

Like this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5i5NPsG_3M

[PlatoCATM]

What should he have done? I also think that he is wrong but when I ask myself "what is the correct way?" I can't come up with a definitive answer.

The OP told you the definitive answer. To hell with the empty if you're being shot at. Reload and return fire. Retrieving the mag should not even be a secondary concern.

[SeriousStudent]

As a former Marine infantry squad leader and NCO, I would say you should kindly and politely knee your Sergeant in the groin, then beat him like a rented mule.

But first, make sure you say "With all due respect".

After that, just beat him like he owes you money. He's one of those assholes that likes to make sure all the gear stays on the shelf in some rear-area supply warehouse, rather than in the hands of your platoon.

Jebus, lifers like him are why I left the Corps. He's retarded, and feel free to tell him I said so.

As you can see, I have no strong feelings on this subject.

And God bless you for being a Doc. If you ever get to Texas, I'll buy you a beer and some BBQ.

[Redhat]

Sounds lke they are confusing a tactical reload based on 3-22.9?

[Smash]

Garbage like that happens. I saw it all the time as a artillery officer attached to a line company. "Retention" was a common emphasis. "there's no need for speed reloads". I was made fun of multiple time by gunners and 0302s for doing timed speed reloads competing against a certain bronze star awarded 0369 during our down time. I was ridiculed for owning Pmags. I would ask why are you preaching retention? "because I'm not bringing y'all any more"

[snackgunner]

Did the Sgt come from instructing boots at MCT school? I had one of those Sgts get dumped into my platoon and became one of our squad leaders just because he was a Sgt. Until we got to Iraq and half way through the deployment he went down as a heat casualty, while on patrol and had to have his ass carried back to the OP.

Good on you though for knowing better and realizing that somethings not right about the training you were getting. If this is the way your Platoon Commander and Sgt wants you and the rest of your platoon to train, maybe approach some reasonable Sgt/NCO from another platoon who has some combat experience and knows his shit and ask him to teach you a thing or two, maybe after you get off for the day, just so you dont piss anyone in your platoon off. Who knows, maybe this Sgt/NCO will be able to speak up for you and tell your Sgt that he needs to un-**** himself.

[theblackknight]

Garbage like that happens. I saw it all the time as a artillery officer attached to a line company. "Retention" was a common emphasis. "there's no need for speed reloads". I was made fun of multiple time by gunners and 0302s for doing timed speed reloads competing against a certain bronze star awarded 0369 during our down time. I was ridiculed for owning Pmags. I would ask why are you preaching retention? "because I'm not bringing y'all any more"\


"plastic magozine? yur one a'h thems gear qwarrs aint cha boy"


8 bucks in sheet metal is most certainly worth taking rounds for.

[JSantoro]

I can't help but look upon that as thinking like a victim.

Hopefully, when in the midst of a fight, somewhere where your lizard-brain isn't in charge, you're thinking "I'm gonna win this fight, this ground will be MINE, and I'll police that shit up later." Bear in mind, I never did a helluva lot of no-shit foot patrols in which one didn't have vehicles relatively nearby, each with metric assloads of jammed mags just waiting for gainful employment and a runner to take them to where the work is. In that case, that PltSgt had better be thinking more about how he's gonna keep his human threshing machines gassed up than whether or not they're retaining mags.

Even if they're thinking in terms of crag-to-cliffside foot-patrols in which you ARE, for all intents and purposes, your own log-train, I'd still question that methodology from the standpoint of intentionally trying to do a concurrent task with your hand full of empty magazine when it doesn't need to be. What they're trying to teach is slow enough to just go ahead and teach rip and stow the empty ->nab fresh -> feed fresh -> bolt home and shoot.

Consider it from this angle.....it's unlikely that, in the middle of a firefight, they'll be leaning over your shoulder with a work-flow diagram and a red pen.

If, after a firefight, you get hit with "Why don't you have Y number of mags on your body?" remember these words: BILL ME, mother****er!

Bear also in mind, in my 12 years, the only time the word "career" entered my thought process was when I thought things like "Well, it's not like this is my career...." immediately prior to doing something borderline (...or clearly...) insubordinate in the face of some idiocy, so I'm biased.

[Heavy Metal]

BILL ME, mother****er!

**** that dude!

Remember these words: "Expendable item, field loss on the Report of Survey."

[a0cake]

I don't think any more needs to be said about the "technique" you were "taught," so I'll talk about speed reloads vs tactical reloads.

There was a strong sentiment in my unit that every reload should be a speed reload. The idea is that there is almost no situation in which letting the magazine drop free is disadvantageous. The argument was that performing two different kinds of reloads, one where you drop the magazine and one where you retain it, can cause "muscle confusion" instead of muscle memory and get you into trouble...IE...you're inside a house in close proximity to the enemy and for whatever reason you do the slower reload unintentionally.

So, SOP was to do the classic tilt-left (to make sure you're actually dry and it's not a malfunction), whip-right (to make sure the magazine actually drops and also to orient the gun in a way that makes it easier to reload) magazine drop for every reload. Furthermore, SOP was to pickup expended magazines as the situation permitted or before moving.

While I'll buy that academically, in reality it's a bit much. People talk about gunfights like they're always ultra-intense periods of extreme chaos. While this certainly is true sometimes, in reality you're going to see a lot of 2, 4, and 6 hour "rolling firefights" where you're in and out of contact periodically. You're going to be taking water breaks while under fire, you're going to throw a dip in if the one you had in fell out. It's not a bad thing if you do a tactical reload instead of a speed reload in certain situations....especially if dropping the magazine means it's going to tumble 500 feet down a hill or fall between large rocks and never get recovered. Obviously, if you have an immediate threat then forget about losing the magazine. Speed reload and replace it. But there is room for common sense.

The key is to grab the new magazine first, then bring it up parallel to the old one. Next, while holding onto the new magazine at the same time remove the old one, retain it in the hand, and insert the new mag. Hit the bolt release, and only then put the expended magazine back in its pouch or in a dump pouch.

Just use common sense and do what the situation allows.

[JSantoro]

**** that dude!

Remember these words: "Expendable item, field loss on the Report of Survey."

See, there ya go all making sense & stuff.... You KNOW that that's rarely tolerated, and just as likely to get somebody hemmed up as my arguably-ill-advised practice of open belligerence. :D

[QuietShootr]

See, there ya go all making sense & stuff.... You KNOW that that's rarely tolerated, and just as likely to get somebody hemmed up as my arguably-ill-advised practice of open belligerence. :D

You and me both.

I figured out when I ETSd in 04 after a 10 year break in service that what little tolerance I had for shitheads was about gone, and unless I wanted to start accumulating busts, NJPs, and shit I'd better just stay gone.

Much respect to anyone who can put up with Army bullshit. I know now why I was such a good soldier when I was 17 and a month... I didn't know I was being led by incompetents.

[Moltke]

Get him a Magpul video. :ph34r:

[Lone_Ranger]

^ Agree with what the guys are saying. But, unless you're going to select out for SF, you're stuck with being "regular army."

This calls for a creative solution, unless you want to get labeled as a rebel.

1. Maybe, you could buy your own mags, and use them in combat operations. That way you still have the GI issues to turn in. Consider it a "business expense."

2. Go Old School Cavalry. When they carried the 1911, they used to put retention lanyards on their magazines. A Ranger plate and some 550 cord, and you can drop your mag, like Costa, and still have it, to keep the Sarge happy.

That kind of BS, is why I got out. But, to change things, there needs to be combat experienced soldiers that stay in, get rank, and change things from within. Combat driven tactics, rather than an admin driven, dog and pony show.

[Failure2Stop]

If you find yourself in a situation where you wind up going through your entire magazine, retention will be your last concern.

[jmlshooter]

PFC Johnny Johnson Awarded Medal of Honor for demonstrating extreme courage in the face of adversity.

Amidst persistent enemy machine gun fire, PFC Johnson collected every expended battlefield magazine, even those of his peers, at risk of life and limb.

"I just couldn't let my buddies wait on resupply like that. Plus, it seemed extremely untidy."

[Failure2Stop]

PFC Johnny Johnson Awarded Medal of Honor for demonstrating extreme courage in the face of adversity.

Amidst persistent enemy machine gun fire, PFC Johnson collected every expended battlefield magazine, even those of his peers, at risk of life and limb.

"I just couldn't let my buddies wait on resupply like that. Plus, it seemed extremely untidy."

Proving what exactly?
There is a big difference in dumping an empty magazine to get more bullets into the gun and leaving all of your magazines behind you.

[Ash Hess]

This is actually the most common method right now. Makes you wanna vomit.

Once upon a time, while working on Clearing, we were taught to IMMEDIATELY take a knee upon a malfunction or need to reload. Regardless of where you were in the stack. So you enter the room as #1 man, attempt to engage Bad Guy in the room, malfunction, go to a knee. Anyone who has done rooms should be cringing right now. But that’s what we were taught. So that’s what we taught.

I am constantly amazed by the way BS will spread thru the organization like wild fire as gospel, but something that works has to be tried, tested, shown in 3 different ways, and briefed to 14 Generals. And once they approve, you have to show someone in writing that he did.

[panzerr]

The military as a whole, even the Army 11B and Marine 0311, does a shit job of training soldiers and marines on how to effectively employ their primary weapon system.

That said, cross check everything you learn, no matter who teaches you. Sad to say, but if you want to learn take a civilian class or three.

There are too many people in the military that believe the rank on their uniform magically translates into them knowing something and THAT is dangerous.