View Full Version : New LEO and first rifle, go big or go home
hey guys, been lurking for a while and decided to finally join. Anyways Im 21 and live in FL and just put in for my first rifle. build should be done early next week and can't wait. soo here is what I got.
Tactical Machining Upper and Lower
Magpul CTR
Magpul Miad Grip
Magpul AFG2
Magpul MBUS gen 2 sights
Magpul ASAP plate
Troy MRF Mx 10" rail
Viking Tactical Light Mount
Fenix TK15 Led light
PMags
- Everything in Black
soo thats about it for now lol, decided to just put everything I wanted minus an Optic for right now. Any input would be great Thanks everyone!
GeorgiaBoy
02-02-12, 17:31
Everything looks "good" except for Tactical Machining. Why not use a known-quality mfg like BCM, Daniel Defense, or Colt?
I'm sure you want to buy something made locally but I wouldn't sacrifice that for quality in a patrol rifle. DD is of course right up here in Georgia.
TacCommE21
02-02-12, 17:47
I think GeorgiaBoy got it right. Apparently our opinion is a moot point, as you indicate that the purchase has already been made.
Next time, ask before you buy. I feel certain you will yield better results.
I went with TM because I have heard nothing but good about them. They have great products and quality. I did also want to support a local business and many of my fellow coworkers including our firearms instructors and some swat team members carry TM rifles. Also full lifetime warranty and near instant service.Another biggie is the fact that I got everything above exactly as I want it or the price of a basic colt or big name company.
Failure2Stop
02-02-12, 17:50
I'm trying to figure out how any of that is "going big".
How much did you spend?
I was considering it "going big" for my first rifle. Did not plan to get all the goodies at first.
I got some of the parts on my own but the entire build total was $930.
TacCommE21
02-02-12, 17:55
If you got want you wanted, at the price you wanted, then no one else's opinion matters.
If you signed up to get a pat on the back, or an atta boy, or to start a thread to defend your purchase, believe me you came to the wrong place.
Well i did exactly that. Was not looking for any pat on the back. I was just excited for my first rifle and thought I would share.
- Not looking to cause any issues and did not think i would have to defend my purchase.
- And i was paying tomorrow and build starts monday so if i am seriously making a big mistake please do tell. If its just personal preference then im fine but if there is something I need to know then let me know.
A lot of guys here will tell you if you arent buying a BCM, Noveske, DD, LMT, or Colt you're wasting your money...but its your rifle and you should build it how you want.
Im sure if your local guys are running the Tactical Machining rifles then they're good to go, and it's always good to support local business! Plus a lifetime warranty from a company that you can drive to and talk to directly face to face is a huge plus if you ask me.
Make sure to post some pictures when you get it, Im interested in seeing and hearing more about the TM brand.
DeltaSierra
02-02-12, 18:13
Im sure if your local guys are running the Tactical Machining rifles then they're good to go,
That is sheer genius....
I guess if your local "guys" are running Sea Sick Sea Serpents, they must be good to go as well?
^ will do blstr88 thanks.
- And i understand how some feel about thier brands but only time will tell. I will make it my goal to show the quality of TM. If it sucks then ill claim it but ill post pics as soon as I get it an keep updates rolling.
GeorgiaBoy
02-02-12, 18:21
That is sheer genius....
I guess if your local "guys" are running Sea Sick Sea Serpents, they must be good to go as well?
I know a local department that runs shurikans instead of rifles. They have are all happy with them and even the chief gives them a thumbs up!
- And i was paying tomorrow and build starts monday so if i am seriously making a big mistake please do tell. If its just personal preference then im fine but if there is something I need to know then let me know.
First off, I have no experience with TM. Looked at their site and based on their listed specs, they appear to have a variety of barrels from 4140 - mil-11595e cmv, other listed specs appear good. Barrels dont indicate any testing though but their BCG does. It's also listed as being made of the right stuff. That said, i would still opt for the old reliables. And yes, to the poster 4 posts above, that is Colt, BCM, DD, Centurion, Noveske. Why? Known quality. Not saying you should never get a TM but this being your first AR, youre better off getting quality and spend your time shooting rather than potentially fixing.
Aimpoint PRO (Patrol Rifle Optic) is a great choice for LEO's. I sold my EoTech XPS and bought an Aimpoint PRO because of the battery life on the Aimpoint. You simply leave the optic on and it lasts up to 3 years (I plan on changing the battery once a year for safe measure). Having the peace of mind that I don't have to worry about dead batteries or turning the optic on when deploying the rifle was a big plus for me.
Understood. Now if I opted for one of those brands would I still be able to maintain that price point?
- and the reason I even looked at TM is that the many people that I know that have them all love them and have not had any issues.
All Im really getting at is that I bet 99% of people on this site havent touched a TM product...I know I havent - I havent even heard of them before now. And I'll be the first to admit, Im no AR expert and I dont look at/read every single post on this site, but I have read a lot and dont remember seeing a single thing about TM products, good or bad.
I own 2 ARs, a Daniel Defense and an LMT and I got the recommendations to go with those from this site and couldnt be happier...but sometimes I just feel like a lot of guys on this site are really quick to label things are "junk" if it isnt one of those big names we all love.
Maybe TM makes a great product, but its not "known" yet? Why not give this guy and the TM name a chance before we mark it as an "inferior" product?
If someone has used a TM product and had a negative experience with it, please post it up...Im always interested in hearing about various brands and I (and Im sure AWVCSO) would like to hear about it.
Aimpoint PRO (Patrol Rifle Optic) is a great choice for LEO's. I sold my EoTech XPS and bought an Aimpoint PRO because of the battery life on the Aimpoint. You simply leave the optic on and it lasts up to 3 years (I plan on changing the battery once a year for safe measure). Having the peace of mind that I don't have to worry about dead batteries or turning the optic on when deploying the rifle was a big plus for me.
That is actually what I was planning on. Ive heard the same..
TacCommE21
02-02-12, 18:33
Maybe TM makes a great product, but its not "known" yet? Why not give this guy and the TM name a chance before we mark it as an "inferior" product?
Maybe they do, but do you want him to find out as a rookie LEO while facing down an armed suspect? :confused:
OP, check your PM's if you haven't.
DeltaSierra
02-02-12, 18:33
Now if I opted for one of those brands would I still be able to maintain that price point?
You can get a brand new Colt for $945. There is no comparing the quality of a factory built Colt/LMT/DD/BCM/NRW with a homebrew using Tactical Machining components.
From what I understand, Tactical Machining is a fairly small company owned and operated by Law Enforcement and for Law enforcement. They just recently became a full machining shop and may not have had the chance to prove themselves. And like i said before, if i get it and its total crap then ill claim it and move on. If on the other hand its a solid and reliable rifle then I would hope to change some peoples opinions.
- Not here to start a riot..
All Im really getting at is that I bet 99% of people on this site havent touched a TM product...I know I havent - I havent even heard of them before now. And I'll be the first to admit, Im no AR expert and I dont look at/read every single post on this site, but I have read a lot and dont remember seeing a single thing about TM products, good or bad.
I own 2 ARs, a Daniel Defense and an LMT and I got the recommendations to go with those from this site and couldnt be happier...but sometimes I just feel like a lot of guys on this site are really quick to label things are "junk" if it isnt one of those big names we all love.
Maybe TM makes a great product, but its not "known" yet? Why not give this guy and the TM name a chance before we mark it as an "inferior" product?
If someone has used a TM product and had a negative experience with it, please post it up...Im always interested in hearing about various brands and I (and Im sure AWVCSO) would like to hear about it.
I agree, it sounds like the OP and his co-workers have more first hand knowledge then the people posting the recommendations of the standard "what should I buy" answer on this site.
Well i did exactly that. Was not looking for any pat on the back. I was just excited for my first rifle and thought I would share.
- Not looking to cause any issues and did not think i would have to defend my purchase.
- And i was paying tomorrow and build starts monday so if i am seriously making a big mistake please do tell. If its just personal preference then im fine but if there is something I need to know then let me know.
Just friendly advice, you still should choose, BUT:
I really would go with at least a BCM or DD barrel, if nothing else. You can get away with a cheaper stripped upper and lower, if it's forged to industry specs it really is all the same, minus the logo.
I'd also spend a bit of money in the BCG department. Honestly, you can probably find these parts just as cheap as any "mid range" brand, I did.
And heck yeah, get a TM and put it through it's paces, maybe it is a great rifle. I haven't heard of them before. Would I get one and use it immediately as a patrol rifle..... No. BCM and the like is proven thousands of times over on the battle field, that's a weapon I'd bet my life on.
Ya barrel and BCG can always be swapped if i decide to. Id like to see what its got out the gate. And its not going into patrol immediately. Prob hold onto it for a few months and put it through the paces before i trust my life with it.
"Ya barrel and BCG can always be swapped if i decide to. Id like to see what its got out the gate. And its not going into patrol immediately. Prob hold onto it for a few months and put it through the paces before i trust my life with it. "
Are you going to have a patrol rifle to use in the interim? Do you have access to a patrol shotgun? As long as you are deploying with at least one long gun you are good to go until you put the rifle in question through its paces. Good luck, try not to let the emotional investment in the rifle overshadow the reality of how it works.... for better OR worse.
Stay safe.
Well, if you've been lurking here as you said, you probley already knew the brands that are prefered on this site. The TM site looks like quality products and like others posted, you can't beat when the company is just down the street. Best of luck.
Welcome and Congrats. Personally, I would have stuck with a known quantity, but what matters the most is how you feel about your purchase.
Enjoy it in good health.
Yes until mine is ready to be used faithfully there is a Remington 870 Tac and Bushmaster AR.
- I have been shooting the basic AR and looking for more. Honestly I can keep the TM for personal use if i want.
- thank you to those who are welcoming me and appreciate me making a decision lol
nobody knows
02-02-12, 19:07
First welcome to the forum, read the sticky's and the forum rules. Now this is Just my opinion, you should get a colt 6920 for your first patrol rifle. Why because you betting your life on this rifle. Is tm GTG I don't know, but I don't want to find out wen I'm being shot at. Your co workers say its GTG but that doesn't really mean $h¡t. You here people say all the time how there just as good brand (bushmaster dpms ect) are GTG and It's just as good as brand A because they fired a whole 500 "flawless" rounds. You can still get a tm rifle later and run the shit out of it and prove it to yourself,and if thats what you decide you want after you put a few thousand rounds through it then use the colt as a back up gun. Like I said just my opinion. But I would hate to here about you gettin wounded or even killed (god forbid) because of you unproven "just as good rifle" shit the bed at the worst possible time ( witch unfortunately that's usually wen it happens). Be safe and good luck with your new carrier.
polymorpheous
02-02-12, 19:14
but what matters the most is how you feel about your purchase.
Seriously?!
:rolleyes:
These threads are starting to wear on the legitimacy of this forum.
There is so much bad information and advice flying around now.
New members,
Please read the knowledge based threads at the top of each sub-forum.
Please post less and read more.
Please stop being argumentative with senior members, mods, and SME with the knowledge and experience to help you.
Seriously?!
:rolleyes:
These threads are starting to wear on the legitimacy of this forum.
There is so much bad information and advice flying around now.
New members,
Please read the knowledge based threads at the top of each sub-forum.
Please post less and read more.
Please stop being argumentative with senior members, mods, and SME with the knowledge and experience to help you.
That was my first thought as well.
The most important thing is that a new patrol officer has a rifle that has the highest possible chance of working properly when needed.
I did 9 months on patrol before I got myself a patrol rifle, but at least I had a reliable 870 that I had about 60 dedicated hours of training on in a rack ready to go.
My first patrol rifle was a stock Colt 6920. I am still using that rifle, but it has grown new attachments over time.....
Ehhh... Dump the Fenix light and get a Surefire, get a Colt, DD,Noveske,BCM,LMT bcg, BCM MOD 4 charging handle, Aimpoint Pro, 1,000 rounds of good ammo, shoot all 1,000 rounds before you carry it on duty.
Suwannee Tim
02-02-12, 19:27
....Tactical Machining is....owned and operated by Law Enforcement and for Law enforcement. .....
Makes sense to me. That police officers would be better at engineering, gunsmithing and machine work than engineers, gun smiths and machinists.
Seriously, put the thing together, shoot it a couple of thousand times, if it works then you have a patrol rifle. Folks worry a lot about having the absolutely most reliable AR possible. I have gotten by for over 50 years with the vast majority of my stuff less than the best of the best. That includes things I bet my life on every day like cars. The chances that a pretty good AR is going to fail you at the most inopportune time and cost you your life is remote to the vanishing point. I don't worry about things that are remote to the vanishing point. Spent your mental energy worrying about something that can get you killed, something that gets lots and lots of cops killed. Driving the car. Most LEOs killed in the line of duty are killed in car accidents. Here is good advice that can save your life. When you drive, focus on driving. Don't text, daydream, mess with the computer, the radio, the whatever. Keep your eyes on the road and your mind on the task of driving. If you are talking to a passenger, look at the road. If something can kill you in the next few seconds, don't take your eyes off it. This particularly applies to driving.
Whereabouts in Florida is your AO?
Obviously Not saying that cops sit there and machine all the rifles, i was implying more that they work in the sales and support the product with thier lives as well as many others.
Congratulations on your new career. No matter what else, always remember...we go home at the end of the shift.
That said, you're going to find that there are always guys who are willing to try out new things. Cops love gear, and some guys always like to be the guy that discovered the new thing that's just "as good as."
That said, there's a reason that Ford sold a hell of a lot of CVPIs...and it's not because they suck as a patrol car (though they have had their share of disturbing problems...but that's another topic for another forum).
There's a reason that Peerless and S&W dominate the handcuff market. There are a variety of other companies out there that have their followings (such as ASP...like some things about their cuffs, but can't bring myself to use 'em on-duty).
There's a reason that when you ask about boots, you get consistent recommendations like Danner Acadias, and then a mish-mash of "these are kinda good too."
Some pieces of gear consistently emerge as "best of breed", and then there's always a collection of also-rans.
Bearing that in mind...there's a reason that there are a hell of a lot of "Colt's Law Enforcement Carbine" (also known as the 6920) riding around in rifle racks and trunks, and it's not because Colt's consistently been the cheapest (although of-late, the pricing has become -far- more competitive).
TM may be a "decent" product...but there's a reason that they're not known outside of the local sphere. Sure, once upon a time, before the Interwebz, there were regional companies that just hand't gotten their names out because national marketing campaigns were just too expensive. However, these days, truly superior products tend to get a following pretty quickly, and information travels fast. When a company's been around since 2008, and people in a serious user community have never heard of 'em...
...that may be what we investigators refer to as a clue.
No one here is trying to say that these TM rifles are junk. What they are saying is that they are an unproven product. Thats like using a custom built 1911 as your duty gun from some gunsmith who has not yet earned a reputation for building good working guns. It might work great, I hope it does. It might shit the bed during a barricaded armed robbery where you are the first on scene with multiple armed bad guys.
My duty rifle is a Bushamster. It has fired several thousand rounds without jamming. But I found out in that time what parts are substandard because they broke. Luckily I found out before it ever hit the street because I put 4000 rounds through it my first couple weeks and found out then.
I personally went out and bought a Colt for duty use but Im not allowed to carry it until all the dept owned rifles are assigned and dumbasses keep failing the class which keeps me waiting.
Failure2Stop
02-02-12, 19:45
If you really want advice, here you go:
Tactical Machining Upper and Lower- Sure, if you want to support local guys, cool, but I would want to know what parts they are using, what testing they do or do not do, and have a look at their castle nut and gas key staking
Magpul CTR-Sure, but really, the standard M4 buttstock does about the same thing. Might as well go with the MOE or standard M4 and save some $$ unless you want to step up to a SOPMOD ot Vltor
Magpul Miad Grip-If you have a very specific preference or weird hand size, sure, but otherwise you can just grind off the bump of the A2 or get a MOE or MOE+
Magpul AFG2-frankly, useless. A decent VFG will give you the same thing, as well as be useful for shooting from support
Magpul MBUS gen 2 sights-take the money you are saving and get a good rear sight. Those from DD and LMT are superb, or you can just chop down an M4 carry handle into a usable BUIS
Magpul ASAP plate-unnecessary unless you are dedicating yourself to a single-point sling. Highly recommend other options
Troy MRF Mx 10" rail-Not what I would choose or recommend. Why exactly do you need a rail anyway? Lots of better options out there.
Viking Tactical Light Mount
Fenix TK15 Led light-I'd highly recommend a SureFire light
PMags-Only if you can get them cheaper than GI mags.
- Everything in Black
If you really want advice, here you go:
I don't think you can knock the guy's choice of furniture other than quality of manufacturing. If the AFG2 is what he feels most comfortable with, it's supposed to be a pretty sturdy piece. I for one, prefer to have nothing out on the end of my rifle, but that's just my choice.
All Im really getting at is that I bet 99% of people on this site havent touched a TM product...I know I havent - I havent even heard of them before now. And I'll be the first to admit, Im no AR expert and I dont look at/read every single post on this site, but I have read a lot and dont remember seeing a single thing about TM products, good or bad.
I own 2 ARs, a Daniel Defense and an LMT and I got the recommendations to go with those from this site and couldnt be happier...but sometimes I just feel like a lot of guys on this site are really quick to label things are "junk" if it isnt one of those big names we all love.
Maybe TM makes a great product, but its not "known" yet? Why not give this guy and the TM name a chance before we mark it as an "inferior" product?
If someone has used a TM product and had a negative experience with it, please post it up...Im always interested in hearing about various brands and I (and Im sure AWVCSO) would like to hear about it.
I dont think anyone said anywhere here that TM is junk... but instead, to go with known quality. I'm all for TM coming up to becoming one of the known quality brands, in fact, I'd like to hear more about them and hear peoples' experiences but at this point in time, the guy is looking to get a good weapon, possibly to go on duty with, so the recommendation is to go with known quality.
NeoNeanderthal
02-02-12, 20:54
F2S,
"PMags-Only if you can get them cheaper than GI mags."
Not calling you out, i'm aware that you've forgotten more about shooting then I know, i value your opinion. Have you not found pmags to be more durable or reliable? How about the anti tilt follower. Im interested in your thoughts on the matter.
What if, in 5 years, TM is included in the same breath as DD, BCM, Noveske, LMT, Colt, etc.? Purely speculative and hypothetical, I know.
All I'm really trying to say is that a company has to get its start sometime, somehow. There will be bumps in the road as a company embarks upon a new endeavor and enters the AR-15 manufacturing fold, but after a quick glance at TM's website, it looks like they are trying to do things right and are making an effort to go down the right track.
I'm sure people were skeptical of DD or BCM when they were a a competely unproven, unknown company that started to built complete rifles.
I am a read more, post less type of guy and I read this forum extensively (emphasis added) before I purchased my first AR, a DDM4V3. I am a risk averse individual and I made a decision to go with a company with a proven track record for my first purchase. That being said, I do believe that some individuals around here have a tendency to overreact when someone veers off the "proven" path. However, I understand that they are entitled to their opinion.
Going with a "new" company that is trying to build rifles the right way seems to me to be distinct from buying a $1,000 rifle from a longstanding company known to produce an inferior product at a price point that matches or exceeds a properly built rifle.
F2S,
"PMags-Only if you can get them cheaper than GI mags."
Not calling you out, i'm aware that you've forgotten more about shooting then I know, i value your opinion. Have you not found pmags to be more durable or reliable? How about the anti tilt follower. Im interested in your thoughts on the matter.
I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this too. I picked up three used GI mags a while back and had problems with 2 of them. I've got a good 40 PMAGs now and havent had any problems with any of them.
Im with NeoNeanderthal - not trying to start any argument about this, just hoping to hear your reasoning.
nobody knows
02-02-12, 22:03
What if, in 5 years, TM is included in the same breath as DD, BCM, Noveske, LMT, Colt, etc.? Purely speculative and hypothetical, I know.
All I'm really trying to say is that a company has to get its start sometime, somehow. There will be bumps in the road as a company embarks upon a new endeavor and enters the AR-15 manufacturing fold, but after a quick glance at TM's website, it looks like they are trying to do things right and are making an effort to go down the right track.
I'm sure people were skeptical of DD or BCM when they were a a competely unproven, unknown company that started to built complete rifles.
I am a read more, post less type of guy and I read this forum extensively (emphasis added) before I purchased my first AR, a DDM4V3. I am a risk averse individual and I made a decision to go with a company with a proven track record for my first purchase. That being said, I do believe that some individuals around here have a tendency to overreact when someone veers off the "proven" path. However, I understand that they are entitled to their opinion.
Going with a "new" company that is trying to build rifles the right way seems to me to be distinct from buying a $1,000 rifle from a longstanding company known to produce an inferior product at a price point that matches or exceeds a properly built rifle.
Well then they need to do what BCM&DD did, get them in the hands of serious shooter who's opinions are highly valued. And then there is BCM's filthy 14 torture test. They whent out and put the time in as well as lending rifles to well respected schools/instructors. You reap what you sow,and BCM&DD busted their ass's to EARN their reputation.
nobody knows
02-02-12, 22:17
I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this too. I picked up three used GI mags a while back and had problems with 2 of them. I've got a good 40 PMAGs now and havent had any problems with any of them.
Im with NeoNeanderthal - not trying to start any argument about this, just hoping to hear your reasoning.
I certainly can speak for FTS,but I think the whole pmags being the only mag worth using has been blown out of proportion,are they good mags? Without a doubt. Be we got along just fine with usgi mags for quite some time. They are also available with anti tilt falowers. Mags are a consumable item,if they don't work toss it and get another. buy quality usgi mags and they will perform just as good as pmags for less money.
Well then they need to do what BCM&DD did, get them in the hands of serious shooter who's opinions are highly valued. And then there is BCM's filthy 14 torture test. They whent out and put the time in as well as lending rifles to well respected schools/instructors. You reap what you sow,and BCM&DD busted their ass's to EARN their reputation.
Valid point. Time will tell if TM can replicate the kind of effort put forth by BCM & DD, whose efforts have been nothing short of exemplary.
I certainly can speak for FTS,but I think the whole pmags being the only mag worth using has been blown out of proportion,are they good mags? Without a doubt. Be we got along just fine with usgi mags for quite some time. They are also available with anti tilt falowers. Mags are a consumable item,if they don't work toss it and get another. buy quality usgi mags and they will perform just as good as pmags for less money.
CTD has PMAGs for $12/each...$14 for the mags with windows. And you can get them in any color for that price too (I know color doesnt affect reliability, but its still a cool option that typical GI mags dont have) Show me where there are GI mags for less than $12 a piece and I'll give them a shot!
It isnt JUST that they work well, its the fact that they're ridiculously cheap too.
I am open to trying new mags, but when an excellent product happens to also be the cheapest (or just about), its kind of a no-brainer...
Seriously?!
:rolleyes:
These threads are starting to wear on the legitimacy of this forum.
There is so much bad information and advice flying around now.
New members,
Please read the knowledge based threads at the top of each sub-forum.
Please post less and read more.
Please stop being argumentative with senior members, mods, and SME with the knowledge and experience to help you.
Yes seriously. The OP already made a decision and made a purchase. You can beat him up on his decision and he'll either take it in stride and rectify the choice or argue about it and get a bad taste of this board. I'm not going to join the dog pile and beat him up about it. I'd rather him stick around and read and learn why his first AR is not the most ideal.
nobody knows
02-02-12, 22:34
http://www.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=21225
They are also available in fde and od green. The problem with pmags in colors other then black is they are more brittle. Especially in low temps. I have had 4 pmag covers snap just trying to pit them on in 20 deg and below. If you want pmags by all means by them. But you asked for an explanation and I gave you mine. Just my 2 cents.
Failure2Stop
02-02-12, 22:50
F2S,
"PMags-Only if you can get them cheaper than GI mags."
Not calling you out, i'm aware that you've forgotten more about shooting then I know, i value your opinion. Have you not found pmags to be more durable or reliable? How about the anti tilt follower. Im interested in your thoughts on the matter.
There are some good aspects of PMags.
I have dozens of them, and I use them.
I have also had ones that don't work, and have seen plenty of them break. I have noticed that black ones have the lowest observed failure rates. They are decent mags, and I consider them to be the equal of a GI mag, especially if that GI mag has a MagPul follower.
So if they are both equal when it comes to functional expectation, why not go with the more economical choice?
I don't think you can knock the guy's choice of furniture other than quality of manufacturing. If the AFG2 is what he feels most comfortable with, it's supposed to be a pretty sturdy piece. I for one, prefer to have nothing out on the end of my rifle, but that's just my choice.
For someone's first AR, I would consider it a bandwagon purchase and not one based on performance preference.
Show me one thing the AFG can do that a VFG can't.
I can show you several things that can be done with a VFG (or hand-stop, to a lesser degree) that the AFG can't.
Beat Trash
02-02-12, 23:02
Understood. Now if I opted for one of those brands would I still be able to maintain that price point?
- and the reason I even looked at TM is that the many people that I know that have them all love them and have not had any issues.
I've seen the Colt model 6920 for as low as $950, individual officer priced. That's a complete carbine that is built of known quality parts and assembly.
Slap a light on it and you have a basic Patrol Rifle. Add a RDO if money and Agency regulations permit. While not the lightest RDO out there, for a LEO Patrol Rifle the Aimpoint PRO is hard to beat for the price.
http://www.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=21225
They are also available in fde and od green. The problem with pmags in colors other then black is they are more brittle. Especially in low temps. I have had 4 pmag covers snap just trying to pit them on in 20 deg and below. If you want pmags by all means by them. But you asked for an explanation and I gave you mine. Just my 2 cents.
Just ordered 6 of those mags, thanks for the link! I'll give em a shot for sure :D
nobody knows
02-03-12, 00:17
No problem.
Buy a couple thousand rounds...put the rifle through its paces...and prove to YOURSELF that its good for duty carry. Don't get caught up with all the internet "operators." Yes...DD, Noveske, LMT, BCM, Spikes, Colt, etc...are all quality proven platforms. However, that doesn't mean they are the ONLY ones.
You have first hand knowledge with the rifle (your co-workers)...ask them about their round counts, trainings/classes, ammunition, etc...that they use in their rifles. If there's a complaint, you'll hear about it.
Do NOT take the thing fresh out of the box and stick it in your cruiser though...and that goes for ANY brand. Break it in, make sure there's no kinks ANYWHERE.
OP, If your TM brand rifle can match the quality and testing of the parts in a BCM, Noveske, LMT, COLT, then go for it. If it doesn't, don't do it for a rifle that will be used to save the life of you or others.
I purchase firearms for my department. All of our weapons are issued. Our mid-length Bravo Company rifles cost me less than $900 each with almost everything you described on your list (no rail). If you want to buy from TM because it is a local company that you want to support, use it as a backup or put a good barrel and bolt from another company in the TM rifle. Hell, maybe they will build your rifle with your choice of barrel and bolt if they truly are by LE for LE.
F2S, I haven't used a GI mag since 2007. I will assume that there have been some upgrades in springs followers etc since then. I currently have mags from Magpul, Troy and Lancer (company about 2 miles from my AO) and I have had zero magazine related malfunctions in any of these brands. With my experience with GI mags in the past, I see no reason to switch back. I have the BCM mags that came with our BCM patrol rifles and they cause mag related malfunctions. I am not discounting your experience, expertise, or skills. I am just saying that in my opinion, GI mags have failed much more than the other aforementioned mags. Yes, they are a disposable item but I will pay the couple of bucks more for a little more security.
When you say LEO, do you mean you have been hired as a full time cop?
If so, what are your department regs for what you can carry?
If I see a turd on the sidewalk I am never tempted to touch it, just to be sure its' a turd. It's not necessary that's why. How much experience do you have as a 21 year old new LEO?
As for your selection. You lurked for a while and then made a decision without any input from anyone and now you want us to chime in. Why is that? It seems counterproductive and pointless.
Supporting your local assembler/ builder should be your absolute last priority. First priority since you want this for a duty weapon (Assuming it's even allowed) should be reliability. If you feel comfortable carrying a rifle/carbine from some unknown company simply because some of them have prior LEO experience then rock on, in reality it means jack shit.
In fact, I know many LEO's and HSLD types that will admit that they know dick about putting together solid AR's and prefer to rely on those who actually know what they are doing.
Your best bet would have been an out of the box Colt 6920 or something from Daniel Defense. Then add a light and sling.
Even then, all of this is moot if you have no experience in operating said rifle, low light shooting techniques, etc.....
I can't believe that the cheese has slid so far off the cracker here that we're telling a new LEO to sally forth with an unknown quantity simply because he "feels good" about it.
and the idea that they must be good because cops sell them, or other cops bought them, is... well...
It's not about TM being good or bad, it's about them being an unknown quantity, even to those that think they know, in the face of known good options, for someone to use in a professional capacity. If you want to buy rifles from unknown brands for your local dirt-shooting, have at it, but don't suggest that someone buy one for patrol use.
Were I a cop, I would buy one of two rifles for "patrol":
Colt 6920
Colt 6720
I would put an Aimpoint PRO on it and a Surefire light, and a Blue Force Gear sling, and quite probably a Redimag if it would fit in my rack. I would then aggressively seek out quality training OUTSIDE my department. I would then know more than the vast majority of those guys that want to "support the local guy" and I would simply nod and smile while they regaled me with their tales of wonder.
If so, what are your department regs for what you can carry?
Yes. And....is there a vetting process no matter who the manufacturer is?
..... many of my fellow coworkers including our firearms instructors and some swat team members carry TM rifles....
Based on this I would think that TM is approved by his agency.
Breadstick
02-03-12, 09:03
Patrol Use is the key term here. Life/lives on the line "meat" here
Not local support, not lifetime warranty, not as good as.
If I were to get a PATROL rifle where I'm dealing with potential real deal elements and unpredictable humans PER SHIFT, it would HAVE to be Colt, or BCM, DD not even Noveske, or LMT.
This is coming from ME of all members......I started at the bottom man, (years before I found this place)...I know the shit that comes with "as good as", "unknown quality" and so on.
( no it's not from online bantering)
Beleive me, I'm for underdogs in the AR scene. Like me going out on a PSA product even after lurking here for couple years. BUT it's not a PATROL rifle.
jonconsiglio
02-03-12, 09:16
Hey man, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your new career.
I think all that everyone is trying to say here is that in your line of work, your life may depend on the quality of your equipment at some point. Hopefully not, but it's a possibility.
So, it's very important that you buy the most reliable rifle you can get your hands on. You say that other LEOs and SWAT are using TM rifles and are happy with them. If that's the case, then I hope the same for you and your rifle.
Since you've already purchased this rifle, it might not be the most logical choice to sell it or trade it for another rifle. In that case, I'd highly recommend you buy a case of quality ammo and at least a few hundred rounds of the ammo you'll be carrying on duty. Run it and see how it functions. Search here and pay attention to what others suggest you look for.
There are some things I would change though and it's in line with what F2S has stated. I've run AFG's (for about 6 months), ASAP plates, MIADs, etc. the ASAP plate worked ok with the MS2 sling but I quickly realized there were better options for all, most of which I had been using before. So now, I use Noveske QD end plates but generally connect my VCAS slings to the right side of the stock and the left side of the rail near the barrel nut.
I use Tango Down stubby very grips now and they're much more versatile than AFG's, at least for my needs.
For grips, I'm happy with an A2 with the nub removed and the front stippled. I ran MOE grips for a while but prefer the Tango Down BG16 or 17. Personal thing though and none of them are perfect for what I really want... No big deal though.
Of course had you come here before making a purchase, I would have suggested you buy a Colt 6920 or something similar from BCM then add what you needed as you saw fit. You might be content with plastic handguards or MOE handguards or you may really like LNG tubular or railed handguards. Only time and experience will tell. For now, make sure your rifle is reliable. If it's not, don't screw around if it's not a simple fix, just sell it and move on.
Most importantly, get some training outside of your department. I can't stress this enough. Not only will it increase your chance of survival during a fight, it'll also show you any issues with your rifle. Please, if you haven't already, get to a quality carbine/handgun class from a respected trainer, many of which can be found here on this site and even in this thread. If your department is anything like Corpus Christi's, outside training is a must. There's a lot of great guys here, but their qualification and training is little more than a CHL class.
Good luck man and sorry for rambling. Remember, everyone here is trying to help you. They're taking time out of their day to give you solid advice. Take it in and think about it. Get out of the midset of the local business and what the other guys around you use. For all you know, they all went through the same process as you. All it takes is a group of guys new to ARs with one that is very outspoken about a particular brand (that may or may not be right) and the rest will follow.
This is not meant as an insult at all, but I see this so often where guys say that it works for a buddy, so I'll just take the same thing so I don't have to bother with it.... It brings to mind the saying that "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king". people don't know what they don't know. I'm not saying this is the case with your guys, it's just something I see very often in law enforcement.
Good luck buddy and keep an open mind.
Listen to these guys. I wish I'd been here before I bought mine.
From MY experience with TM:
- Their "stripped" uppers are on par with everyone else
- Their "stripped" lowers are good. Nice machining and finish. Selector markings are only the left side of the receiver (safe/fire), and of the 4 I've had, 3 of them had tight magwells with pmags.
- Their trigger guards are nice as well.
I'm not impressed with the quality of their LPK's. The FCG that came with one of their lowers I purchased looked like crap (cheap) and I removed them immediately (I've yet to see a hammer as bad as that). The bolt catch had large wide horizontal grooves as opposed to the fine catches i.e. BCM, DD, LMT etc (just me nit-picking, functional regardless). Bolt catch spring weakened over time/use, same story for mag release spring. Safety selector spring was a few mm short compared to several extras I have, resulting in a soft safety lever all of this took place near the 1k round mark). Needless to say, I've replaced every part that came with that lower.
I like the OP wanted to support a local manuf. and to see how their products stack up against the rest, and with Spikes back-log, I decided to try them out. I'm running one of their stripped lowers on my 22ar, and one of them is SBR'd, and have had no other issues.
Their staff has always been friendly when I've called, and they've called me right back if they were busy.
Having said that, I will no longer use them in any future builds, as there are FAR better lower receiver options out there (AXTS ;)).
Would I buy a complete rifle from them that I planned to use to protect myself or others based on my experience with their products? :nono:
Stick with the major players (LMT, DD, KAC, BCM, Noveske, Larue, Colt). There's reasons why they are always mentioned first when it comes to purchasing and AR.
Build a BCM or get the Colt 6920 straight from Grant and be done with it! :dance3:
Yes. And....is there a vetting process no matter who the manufacturer is?
I don't think we will get an answer, which has probably already answered the question.
Bigkrackers
02-04-12, 08:27
So, I'm very new to this forum but have spent many hours going through the stickies and so far I have had all my questions answered via those stickies.
Because I have never owned, assembled or built an AR and have very little experience shooting them I just lurk for the most part and stay out of trouble.
To the op: I work with ex military and ex leo on a daily basis and when they found out I was looking at AR's I was pointed in every direction. The one constant in all the advice I was getting was that all of it contradicted everything I was reading here. Among some of the comments; I was told that Marine armorers commonly just use lock tight instead of staking anything. Might be true, I don't know, but I do know why that's not a good idea thanks to this forum.
Because I know what I don't know, I'm not going to experiment with an unproven or unknown manufacturer. I simply wouldn't know what was good and what was bad and what needed attention just by looking at the rifle or shooting it. Going with a proven and well vetted company won't guarantee a perfect, trouble free gun but, it's better than likely that will be the case. And if I'm betting my well being or the safety of others on a weapon, I want the proven reliability of the manufacturers that are justifiably recommended by the SMEs, industry experts, mods and senior members of this site.
Just my two cents. And stay safe.
Beat Trash
02-04-12, 08:50
So, I'm very new to this forum but have spent many hours going through the stickies and so far I have had all my questions answered via those stickies.
Because I have never owned, assembled or built an AR and have very little experience shooting them I just lurk for the most part and stay out of trouble.
Because I know what I don't know, I'm not going to experiment with an unproven or unknown manufacturer. I simply wouldn't know what was good and what was bad and what needed attention just by looking at the rifle or shooting it. Going with a proven and well vetted company won't guarantee a perfect, trouble free gun but, it's better than likely that will be the case. And if I'm betting my well being or the safety of others on a weapon, I want the proven reliability of the manufacturers that are justifiably recommended by the SMEs, industry experts, mods and senior members of this site.
Just my two cents. And stay safe.
Smart thinking. Think of it this way. A person could have spent their entire life as a Pianist, but does that mean they know how to properly build a piano?
I've been a LEO for 19 years, and have been shooting M16/AR's for 29 years. I've never actually built/assembled one. While I could probably cobble one together, I'm not so sure I'd want to trust the end result for anything other than a hobby gun.
There is a reason new shooters are often given the same advice on this site when asked what to get for their first carbine. You hit upon it in your post.
I think many new shooters may be taken back by the simplicity of the advice when told to just go buy a Colt, BCM, or DD carbine, get some ammo, then go learn how to shoot your new gun. Just because the answer is simple, doesn't mean it's wrong.
Failure2Stop
02-04-12, 11:22
Hey man, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your new career.
[SNIP]
Good luck buddy and keep an open mind.
Great post Jon.
Generalpie
02-04-12, 14:57
Great post Jon.
I would concur with everything Jon said in is post. I would add that knowing what you don't know is invaluable in the firearms world and even more so in law enforcement. The business is results oriented, if you don't know how to do something, learn. A lot of that learning is hands on and only comes from experience.
Pay attention, watch, listen and learn. Remember the saying about two ears and one mouth.
If you ever think you know what is going on you may want to take a step back and re-evaluate. The best you can realistically hope for is to be squared away enough to roll with the blows.
Stay safe and welcome aboard.
FWIW, I have been in the business for almost 20 years (crap I am now the "old" guy) and have carried an AR daily for the vast majority of that. Well before they were the "cool kid toy". I still don't know a tiny fraction of what I would like to.
Bluedreaux
02-04-12, 16:00
I have nothing to add about the rifle the OP chose, but I think this is worth mentioning.
As a 2 year cop you think you've got it all figured out.
As a 4 year cop you know you've got it all figured out.
As a 6 year cop you wonder if it's all figured out.
As an 8 year cop you begin to clearly see what you do, and don't, have figured out.
I bet there's a similar progression as shooters.
I think all that everyone is trying to say here is that in your line of work, your life may depend on the quality of your equipment at some point. Hopefully not, but it's a possibility.
So, it's very important that you buy the most reliable rifle you can get your hands on.
I learned long ago that, no matter what line of work you're in, never skimp on the tools.
Toys? sure, lower-quality is often fine. But not the tools of the trade...especially if your life may one day depend on them.
~Dan
Never heard of TM either, but like others have said, run it though a bunch of rounds and some intense training classes where it's gonna get filthy before you trust it in the patrol car.
If its not to late to get your money back, do that get one of the above listed guns and true reliability and quality.
I am interested to see how this gun turns out so keep us updated, and don't forget pics!
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