View Full Version : Decent cost effective trigger upgrade?
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on what the best combination of a cost effective but durable and reliable trigger upgrade to the AR would be. Mine is heavy enough that I can literally hang the rifle with my finger on the trigger and it won't click. IDK what milspec is so I don't know if complaining would even be justified, but it would be nice to have a trigger that I don't have to fight so much to stay on target. I'm not looking for the most complicated match grade unit available - really if I could get a good "normal" trigger around four pounds or so that would do just fine.
The ALG Defense Quality Mil-Spec (QMS) - $45
Tuned by Geissele Automatics
Check out:
http://www.algdefense.com/
Bill Geissele's wife just started a new division of Geissele triggers that addresses exactly what you're looking for. Inexpensive, great performance and Geissele quality/finish.
The ALG Defense Quality Mil-Spec (QMS) - $45
Tuned by Geissele Automatics
IMHO, with the introduction of the ALG Defense ACT and QMS triggers , Geissele has cornered the AR15 trigger market. Again IMHO, either one of these triggers is all you will ever really need for a RDS carbine.
Thanks. This sounds like exactly what I was wanting - basically a service trigger that doesn't rival a DA revolver. I'll check this out and probably make the switch ASAP.
IMHO, with the introduction of the ACT and QMS triggers , Geissele has cornered the AR15 trigger market.
Not necessarily a bad thing. ;) They do one thing - and they do it damn well.
Geissele products are outstanding and so is their service. Bill and Co. have earned whatever success comes their way.
anyone know if you can use JP yellow springs with the ALG Combat Trigger?
anyone know if you can use JP yellow springs with the ALG Combat Trigger?
You can, but you might get FTF with certain primers. I ran yellows on a hammer with the tail cut off and didn't get any FTF out of a thousand or so rounds of XM193.
Yup...I think I just heard Bill Springfield shit himself.
Probably best considering what I've heard...
IMHO, with the introduction of the ALG Defense ACT and QMS triggers , Geissele has cornered the AR15 trigger market. Again IMHO, either one of these triggers is all you will ever really need for a RDS carbine.
lifebreath
02-03-12, 15:05
Excellent! I will continue to pop for the regular GA's, but this is a great thing for those who want an upgraded standard trigger.
francobx22
02-03-12, 15:32
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on what the best combination of a cost effective but durable and reliable trigger upgrade to the AR would be. Mine is heavy enough that I can literally hang the rifle with my finger on the trigger and it won't click. IDK what milspec is so I don't know if complaining would even be justified, but it would be nice to have a trigger that I don't have to fight so much to stay on target. I'm not looking for the most complicated match grade unit available - really if I could get a good "normal" trigger around four pounds or so that would do just fine.
This is just my opinion and field experience, RRA's standard 2-stage trigger is pretty nice, I have two of them with over 8k rounds no hick-ups.. again this is just my opinion but RRA's triggers are nice and have a decent price point.
The ALG Defense Quality Mil-Spec (QMS) - $45
Tuned by Geissele Automatics
I was just gonna say just shoot your rifle and break the stock trigger in but this is a great price point for a non "Geiselle" trigger.
DeltaSierra
02-03-12, 20:05
This is just my opinion and field experience, RRA's standard 2-stage trigger is pretty nice, I have two of them with over 8k rounds no hick-ups.. again this is just my opinion but RRA's triggers are nice and have a decent price point.
:stop:
:suicide:
BufordTJustice
02-03-12, 20:15
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3022
worth the wait.
On my first build in 2008 i purchased a DPMS LPK. (noob mistake)
Just ordered the ALG Defense ACT to finally get rid of that piece of garbage DPMS trigger.
blasternank
02-04-12, 01:53
Those might be a nice economical way for a standard trigger. I might try one or two.
Rock River two stages... Where do I begin?
The horror stories have not made it to my shooting, but after less than a thousand, I realized I wasted my money. Pay my hard earned cash for a eventual DA trigger that I have serious doubts about? That sucks and will not be down that road again.
Changing soon, I guess Bill and co will be getting my money soon.
Trident's write up on a promising trigger upgrade is here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=97266
The RRA is completely unsat for anything important.
GI triggers can improve with use. Recommend intensive dry and live fire.
How many rounds through the gun? What type of shooting?
The rifle is a BCM with only about a hundred rounds through it. The trigger had a lot of grittiness to it so I pulled it out and found that there were still machining marks on the surfaces where it engaged the hammer. I carefully took them off with very fine sandpaper to remove most of the terrible creep so it's basically a two stage trigger now... but heavy. I just feel that the weight of the trigger pull is detracting from the inherent accuracy of the rifle.
DeltaSierra
02-04-12, 11:56
Yeah, I realize it could improve with use potentially... but I want to be able to hit stuff with it now instead of waiting a couple thousand rounds to be able to hit stuff. It's worth $50 to me to be able to do that.
A lighter trigger is NOT going to help you "hit stuff" any better....
Instead of wasting your money on a new trigger (that you won't be able to make full use of,) you just need more practice....
for the same price as the ALG, Spikes Combat trigger is similar, if not the same, with nickel-boron coating and .0001 oversize pins.
I got one before ALG was announced and found it to be very smooth and consistent. I would not be surprised to learn that they are produced by the same company.
I plan to get an ALG and do a comparison as soon as they are available...
BufordTJustice
02-04-12, 13:25
for the same price as the ALG, Spikes Combat trigger is similar, if not the same, with nickel-boron coating and .0001 oversize pins.
I got one before ALG was announced and found it to be very smooth and consistent. I would not be surprised to learn that they are produced by the same company.
I plan to get an ALG and do a comparison as soon as they are available...
I, too, owned (and technically still own) a spikes battle trigger for a while. I put about 1K rds on it.
I started to experience some peening of the coating on the front of the sear. The coating had seemed to chip away. I heard that a bad batch went out from spikes to their coating house (Fail zero?). Before that happened, it was great. I moved from that to the GA SD-C.
I'm fully confident that if I contacted spikes they would replace it for free with no questions asked (their CS has been excellent for me and I'm a local LEO), but i don't really care to at this point because I'm so happy with the SD-C. I'm the only person I know of who has experienced this peening issue on my battle trigger as I have several buddies who have more than 2K rds on theirs (two of them use XP hammer springs as well) and none of them have experienced this issue at all.
I expect that ALG ACT will be crisper than the Spikes.
Ray, I look forward to your direct comparison between the two, since you will have them both on-hand to do an A-B between them.
I'm sure ALG triggers are fine, but stock GI triggers from decent manufacturers soften up nicely after 500 rounds or so and continue to get better the more you shoot them.
BufordTJustice
02-04-12, 14:17
I'm sure ALG triggers are fine, but stock GI triggers from decent manufacturers soften up nicely after 500 rounds or so and continue to get better the more you shoot them.
Agreed. But I know Bill G would not bother making just-another-milspec trigger. Due to the case hardening, mil spec triggers will only sweeten so much.
If I know Bill's work, this trigger won't soften-up at all. It will be crisper than a milspec trigger, with less creep, and it will also be smoother.
Like I said, I highly doubt Bill would waste his time on another run-of-the-mill milspec trigger.
If I know Bill's work, this trigger won't soften-up at all. It will be crisper than a milspec trigger, with less creep, and it will also be smoother.
Like I said, I highly doubt Bill would waste his time on another run-of-the-mill milspec trigger.
Agreed as well.
This begs the question of when or if a standard mil-spec trigger may soften to the point that the trigger goes to shit or otherwise becomes problematic.
OP, level of experience with the AR FOW? Prior /other firearms/ shooting experience?
BufordTJustice
02-04-12, 14:32
Agreed as well.
This begs the question of when or if a standard mil-spec trigger may soften to the point that the trigger goes to shit or otherwise becomes problematic.
Well, my agency issues to people who don't bring their own AR the following:
early 1970's vintage Colt M16 A1 w/ 20" pencil barrel and triangle handguards.
The guns even have the pin hole for the auto sear (sear and pin have been removed). They were NatGuard throw-aways and only God knows how long they held onto them. Countless tens of thousands of rounds down the pipe.
The 3 that I have recently shot all have decent triggers, some still have a little bit of grit in them. I have not seen or heard of one doubling. I don't say it with sarcasm that the case-hardening is there for a reason, as these triggers are obviously still GTG.
The ALG ACT trigger actually has had it's sear surfaces polished smooth by Geissele Automatics....then the trigger components are hard lubed.
You get actual Geissele pins and springs with the ACT trigger as well. BufordTJustice was correct....it requires no break in period.
I can't comment on the spike's trigger since I've never tried one, however I can say for certain that it isn't being refined by GA.
Finished putting together my M4gery last weekend. Used a G&R LPK, then sent off the hammer and BCG to WMD Guns to get NiB coated. This past week put 115 rounds downrange, with very good feel. No grittiness at all, and smooth pull with crisp break between 6-7 lbs. Couldn't be happier with it!
Tommato
EzGoingKev
02-04-12, 16:57
anyone know if you can use JP yellow springs with the ALG Combat Trigger?
What is wrong with the springs that come with the trigger? Why do you want to screw with something that hasn't even been released yet?
This is just my opinion and field experience, RRA's standard 2-stage trigger is pretty nice, I have two of them with over 8k rounds no hick-ups.. again this is just my opinion but RRA's triggers are nice and have a decent price point.
I would not waste my money on RRA trigger. I shot a friends rifle with one and was not impressed. IIRC these triggers are also known for having issues once they have a round count on them.
I put a SSA in mine to try and would not go back. Everyone I have let shoot my rifle asks about the trigger, even those with XYZ's trigger in their rifle, because they like the SSA better than what is in their rifle.
StopPolloition
02-04-12, 17:13
I see that Rainier Arms is going to be stocking these new ALG triggers soon. I am excited to check them out and compare them. Has anybody gotten to compare the QMS and the ACT trigger? Aside from the coating, I can't seem to see much difference between them online. Does the coating make that big of a difference?
OP, level of experience with the AR FOW? Prior /other firearms/ shooting experience?
Experience level with other firearms: shooting for about 25 years. I've owned a great many milsurp rifles, hunting rifles, six AK's, three FAL's, three SKS's, and one other AR (an Olympic back before I knew what I was looking for in an AR) years ago. In spite of the Olympic's poor reputation, mine ran reliably with everything and was very easy to make hits with. But most of my AR family experience is from time in the Army. I currently shoot rimfire rifles about every week or weekend if I can and am planning to work in some time with the AR too. Ammo is cheap enough that some regular practice shouldn't be a problem.
Here's the thing - no disrespect to anyone who suggests practice, but when I squeeze the trigger on any of my other rifles the sights stay put. With this AR I just can't seem to keep them on the "target" during dry fire practice no matter how much I concentrate on a smooth trigger squeeze. I HATE having to replace something on a new rifle to get it to be what I want, but I like the rifle otherwise and for $50 or so I'd be OK if it helps me make the most of the rifle.
for the same price as the ALG, Spikes Combat trigger is similar, if not the same, with nickel-boron coating and .0001 oversize pins.
I got one before ALG was announced and found it to be very smooth and consistent. I would not be surprised to learn that they are produced by the same company.
I plan to get an ALG and do a comparison as soon as they are available...
I'he had a spikes battle trigger; fwiw, it was a turd. IMO, simply a run of the mill GI trigger with a coating on it....as we all know with GI triggers, they can range from pretty good to crap. Without any further QC, its the luck of the draw; simply coating the thing is not going to help. By contrast, I have now used 3 LWRC coated triggers and they have all been exactly the same, I.e. as good as a GI trigger you will ever find - but, they are pricey. As such, I am over the moon that Geissele have decided to bring out these new ALG triggers - the price looks great, and QC is everything for those guys. Can't wait to get my hands on one; chances are, if my experience with Geissele is anything to go by, they will become my 'go to' trigger for future builds for friends and family.
Experience level with other firearms: shooting for about 25 years. I've owned a great many milsurp rifles, hunting rifles, six AK's, three FAL's, three SKS's, and one other AR (an Olympic back before I knew what I was looking for in an AR) years ago. In spite of the Olympic's poor reputation, mine ran reliably with everything and was very easy to make hits with. But most of my AR family experience is from time in the Army. I currently shoot rimfire rifles about every week or weekend if I can and am planning to work in some time with the AR too. Ammo is cheap enough that some regular practice shouldn't be a problem.
Here's the thing - no disrespect to anyone who suggests practice, but when I squeeze the trigger on any of my other rifles the sights stay put. With this AR I just can't seem to keep them on the "target" during dry fire practice no matter how much I concentrate on a smooth trigger squeeze. I HATE having to replace something on a new rifle to get it to be what I want, but I like the rifle otherwise and for $50 or so I'd be OK if it helps me make the most of the rifle.
Part of the reason I ask is that context is everything. I started on pistols, not rifles, and so to me the stock AR trigger is a dream compared to the long DA pull of a Sig, or the sproink of a Glock. I got sidetracked by chasing triggers and wound up with $6k worth of 1911s that didn't fix my problem, just masked it.
I recently picked up a Winchester Model 70. I'm sure to the rifluminati the stock trigger in that gun is shit, but to me it feels like it'll go off if I sneeze.
If your game is groups from a static position, and it sounds like yours is, then I think a trigger upgrade may be in order. Personally I've never missed a shot with an AR that I thought I could blame on the trigger.
Yup...I think I just heard Bill Springfield shit himself.
Probably best considering what I've heard...
Well, at the price point these are selling for, I hope it does put this hack out of business, I hate to think how many rifles and pistols he's hacked up over the years..
Well, at the price point these are selling for, I hope it does put this hack out of business, I hate to think how many rifles and pistols he's hacked up over the years..
Me too. He ruined a trigger of mine years ago.
I'm passively interested in this ALG thing, but I'll need to have one side-by-side with a stock trigger to really make a determination for myself.
Robb Jensen
02-09-12, 20:41
The ALG Defense Quality Mil-Spec (QMS) - $45
Tuned by Geissele Automatics
The ALG Defense trigger is nice, but I tried them at SHOT and much preferred the ALG Defense ACT trigger which MSRPs for $65.00
I bought two and they're going to sell very well. Pull weight is about 5.5-6lbs like a USGI trigger but very smooth.
Tiny Killer Robot
02-09-12, 20:46
My 6920 had a heavy, gritty trigger. I hear over and over, "just shoot it, it will break in fine", but I went ahead and put in a Geissele SSA and damn what a nice trigger. Smooth as glass and a very, very clean break. It is so smooth that it feels lighter than the 4.5 lbs is is rated at.
Money well spent, as I doubt the factory would ever have gotten this nice and if it did, I would have ran more than the $170 for the Geissele on ammo.
My personal philosophy is don't cheap out on the optics, upper, or trigger.
Confed-rifleman
02-10-12, 00:39
Anything from the Geissele clan (Geissele Automatics or ALG) is worth the money. Durability, quality, and consistancy. When it comes to triggers there is no other name.
Save up a little while and try this. :smile:
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/firearms/ar-15/ar08.html
Seriously you can do a trigger improvement for 50 cents. If you don't like it your only out 50 cents. I did it on one of my guns. I did not grind on the trigger as in the directions, I simply inserted the set screw as far as I could before it interfered with the safety selector and backed it off a little. To me, it's all I'll ever need for my gun. I could use a set of lighter springs to improve it a little more but I don't feel the need.
Long story short, all it dose is adjust the pretravel out. If you follow the directions and grind the trigger a little you are going to get some over travel, so heads up on that.
I just advise you to try it before you drop the coin on a something else that you may not even need.
BufordTJustice
02-10-12, 22:25
Save up a little while and try this. :smile:
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/firearms/ar-15/ar08.html
Seriously you can do a trigger improvement for 50 cents. If you don't like it your only out 50 cents. I did it on one of my guns. I did not grind on the trigger as in the directions, I simply inserted the set screw as far as I could before it interfered with the safety selector and backed it off a little. To me, it's all I'll ever need for my gun. I could use a set of lighter springs to improve it a little more but I don't feel the need.
Long story short, all it dose is adjust the pretravel out. If you follow the directions and grind the trigger a little you are going to get some over travel, so heads up on that.
I just advise you to try it before you drop the coin on a something else that you may not even need.
That would greatly alter the sear overlap in a milspec trigger...making it not-so-drop-safe. I could never recommend this mod on any gun I was willing to shoot.
Without measuring sear overlap (and this guy has NOT done so), it is impossible to know if drop safety has been compromised. With so many on this board taking their guns into harm's way (like I do on every shift), that is not an option.
Pony up and pay the $45 for a QMS. That backyard stuff does not belong on a fighting rifle.
Save up a little while and try this. :smile:
http://www.junkyardgenius.com/firearms/ar-15/ar08.html
Seriously you can do a trigger improvement for 50 cents. If you don't like it your only out 50 cents. I did it on one of my guns. I did not grind on the trigger as in the directions, I simply inserted the set screw as far as I could before it interfered with the safety selector and backed it off a little. To me, it's all I'll ever need for my gun. I could use a set of lighter springs to improve it a little more but I don't feel the need.
Long story short, all it dose is adjust the pretravel out. If you follow the directions and grind the trigger a little you are going to get some over travel, so heads up on that.
I just advise you to try it before you drop the coin on a something else that you may not even need.
I advise everyone ignore this advice lest they ruin a perfectly good trigger.
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on what the best combination of a cost effective but durable and reliable trigger upgrade to the AR would be. Mine is heavy enough that I can literally hang the rifle with my finger on the trigger and it won't click. IDK what milspec is so I don't know if complaining would even be justified, but it would be nice to have a trigger that I don't have to fight so much to stay on target. I'm not looking for the most complicated match grade unit available - really if I could get a good "normal" trigger around four pounds or so that would do just fine.
The OP said nothing about it being a fighting rifle.
And I agree with your point. I did not do this to my defensive carbine but a scoped rifle that's for shooting targets.
I advise everyone ignore this advice lest they ruin a perfectly good trigger.
Unless you grind on the trigger, which I did not advise, nothing gets ruined and the set screw that costs a whole 50 cents can be removed if you don't like it. Or go ahead and spend $200 on something else, your money, your gun, do as you like.
Geissele....and forget about it........
That would greatly alter the sear overlap in a milspec trigger...making it not-so-drop-safe. I could never recommend this mod on any gun I was willing to shoot. With so many on this board taking their guns into harm's way (like I do on every shift), that is not an option.
Pony up and pay the $45 for a QMS. That backyard stuff does not belong on a fighting rifle.
What is the minimum required sear overlap needed to ensure safety?
I could see how one using a set screw with 20 threads/inch could calculate the distance between threads (~.05), and then measure the total number of thread/screw rotations needed to span the sear overlap distance (take-up point to when the sear trips), so if you get to that point, for each turn you back the screw out you add back in ~.05 of sear travel. But I have no idea what is considered minimum, safe contact. Is ~.100 needed, ~.150 needed, more, less?
I'm pretty sure Sully used to see a lower that had this feature included so while this may be a bit unconventional, I don't think it's garbage gunsmithing. Having said that, I'd probably be inclined to use something like a Geiselle ACT and be done with it. It's just easier, and simpler and preserves all the originally designed-in safety features.
I would never advise anyone to do something they are uncomfortable with. Having said that this 50cent trigger deal is not a new thing. In fact you can buy a screw (that will break) from Brownells that dose the same thing. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=307/Product/AR-15-M16-DROP-IN-TRIGGER-ADJUSTER
I picked this tip up over at snipers hide, a lot of guys over there really seem to like it. I've yet to read any safety related complaints by those who have actually tried it.
"That would greatly alter the sear overlap in a milspec trigger...making it not-so-drop-safe."
I'm not trying to argue but how, if you have your gun on safe, is it going to fire if you drop it?
There is no guarantee the rifle will be on safe when it's dropped or when it's banged against something. Also, the safety is a mechanical device and is not 100% reliable. That's why it's not safe to point a rifle at anyone although the safety is engaged.
Any time the take up slack of a trigger is fiddled with, drop safety must be checked. Take up enough of the slack and the trigger could be tripped if the rifle were dropped or banged against something. With the rifle unloaded, release the safety and sharply rap the butt against the ground several times to see if the trigger sear will release. If so, too much slack has been taken up. Considering how much abuse a duty rifle may experience, I'm not certain this test is good enough.
If you continue reading the "junkyard genius" article to the end, you will see the author talks about having to grind away where the FCG engages the safety so the safety can be inserted. I don't know if it's necessary. Even so, we're right back to grinding through the case hardening to the softer underlying material.
I would not recommend this modification to be done on any AR, especially grinding away to fit the safety and certainly would not recommend anyone without a solid understanding of how FCGs work attempting this- even for a rifle that will only see use on a range
I would not waste my money on RRA trigger. I shot a friends rifle with one and was not impressed. IIRC these triggers are also known for having issues once they have a round count on them.
Absolutely. I have owned 2 of the RRA 2-stage NM triggers in the past and would not recommend them.
OP: Do what I did, figure out a Geissele trigger that works for you, and shell out the cash once. You'll have the most reliable and nicest trigger you've ever had on an AR.
No WECSOG. If you want to improve your trigger, polish through repetitive use, or purchase a high quality drop-in unit that the manufacturer will stand behind.
The ALG Defense trigger is nice, but I tried them at SHOT and much preferred the ALG Defense ACT trigger which MSRPs for $65.00
I bought two and they're going to sell very well. Pull weight is about 5.5-6lbs like a USGI trigger but very smooth.
Thanks for the info Robb. I bought two Geissele SSA-E triggers for new/upgraded rifles I setup in the last year, but I think if I were doing it over, I'd put this trigger on one of them if I had known about it. These sound like a good setup and I've often wanted a sort of "upgraded milspec" trigger that you could count on but didn't cost a fortune.
BufordTJustice
02-11-12, 13:56
There is no guarantee the rifle will be on safe when it's dropped or when it's banged against something. Also, the safety is a mechanical device and is not 100% reliable. That's why it's not safe to point a rifle at anyone although the safety is engaged.
Any time the take up slack of a trigger is fiddled with, drop safety must be checked. Take up enough of the slack and the trigger could be tripped if the rifle were dropped or banged against something. With the rifle unloaded, release the safety and sharply rap the butt against the ground several times to see if the trigger sear will release. If so, too much slack has been taken up. Considering how much abuse a duty rifle may experience, I'm not certain this test is good enough.
If you continue reading the "junkyard genius" article to the end, you will see the author talks about having to grind away where the FCG engages the safety so the safety can be inserted. I don't know if it's necessary. Even so, we're right back to grinding through the case hardening to the softer underlying material.
I would not recommend this modification to be done on any AR, especially grinding away to fit the safety and certainly would not recommend anyone without a solid understanding of how FCGs work attempting this- even for a rifle that will only see use on a range
+1 Mist
Not to mention if it's being carried in your car during your shift...
I have a fellow squad mate who's car got RAMMED in a rear-end collision while she was blocking some lanes on a 6-lane road w/ a median at night. Our new LED light package on our patrol cars is all but blinding...but despite this, a driver was texting (young female), and "didn't see her". Put my buddy's trunk almost into her front seat (2007 Chevy Impala). We carry our AR's with the bolt forward, hammer cocked, safety on, and chamber empty (but with a full PMAG in the mag well). The impact had apparently partially cycled her bolt carrier and had dropped the hammer....sometime just before or after bending the barrel like a twig. The bolt was found forward but the top round had shifted about halfway forward. From my observations, the BCG had moved to the rear enough to almost create a bolt-over-base scenario.
When I talk about "drop safety", I'm not ****ing around. If somebody wants to turn their range gun into a possible attention-getter for an ATF tattle-tale, be my guest. There is a good reason why the std mil spec design can only be taken so far as far as tuning and lightening.
I say this as a guy who HAS attempted to "tune" a stock milspec trigger...I ended up buying a GA SD-C if that tells you how successful I was. I understand wanting to tinker. I understand and have had good experiences in swapping reduced power wolff trigger springs. BUT, I can't recommend altering the actual geometry of the trigger action. I don't think anybody here would bother doing this to a SIG or a 1911. So why take all these risks for MINIMAL GAIN? I just don't understand it....even on a range gun.
BufordTJustice
02-11-12, 14:03
And I guess I should give some clarification as to my point of reference for this discussion. I'm a cop and I, like many others here on the board, carry guns into harm's way. Guns are a vital tool that simply MUST work when I need them to....or the wrong people will die.
I view guns like I view seatbelts. Having them function less than 100% is NOT an option.
It's difficult for me to put myself into somebody's shoe's who wants to A) risk their hard earned money on an endeavor with very limited possibility for a return-on-investment and B) risk an endeavor that could very well "brick" their gun by making it non functional.
You never know when you're gonna need it.
BT Justice - I agree. I'm not in a line of work where I'll need to rely on my rifle, I'm not a mercenary who's going off into the jungle to battle drug lords, and I'm especially not a guy who fantasizes about going off into the jungle to battle the aforementioned drug lords. I might get into some three-gun at some point, but that's about it. Still, I won't own a gun that isn't 100% reliable and working to my satisfaction. My rifle isn't a "combat" weapon per se - because I have no way of finding myself in "combat" right now. But I am a guy who might need to grab this rifle for HD use or something of that nature so messing with anything that makes it less safe or reliable is out.
I think for the money the ALG offerings are going to be my next step. I've already done about all the polishing I can without messing with the engagement of the sear, just cleaning up the take-up, so this is it.
Anyone who thinks my trigger will wear in to become nice and smooth, feel free to PM me and I'd probably be willing to sell it to you after I make the upgrade.
Thanks to all for your input and advice.
i cant wait to get one of these triggers reguardless of the 50cent talk i want one of the coated ones
BufordTJustice
02-12-12, 23:26
BT Justice - I agree. I'm not in a line of work where I'll need to rely on my rifle, I'm not a mercenary who's going off into the jungle to battle drug lords, and I'm especially not a guy who fantasizes about going off into the jungle to battle the aforementioned drug lords. I might get into some three-gun at some point, but that's about it. Still, I won't own a gun that isn't 100% reliable and working to my satisfaction. My rifle isn't a "combat" weapon per se - because I have no way of finding myself in "combat" right now. But I am a guy who might need to grab this rifle for HD use or something of that nature so messing with anything that makes it less safe or reliable is out.
I think for the money the ALG offerings are going to be my next step. I've already done about all the polishing I can without messing with the engagement of the sear, just cleaning up the take-up, so this is it.
Anyone who thinks my trigger will wear in to become nice and smooth, feel free to PM me and I'd probably be willing to sell it to you after I make the upgrade.
Thanks to all for your input and advice.
Thank you for your understanding.
I don't want to represent myself as some hard-core HS/LD, face shooting BAMF who's too cool for school.
I am a street patrol deputy in Orlando, FL. Anything can happen in a city/county/metro area this big. I need to be as ready as reasonably can be. That's all.
I re-read my previous post and I could hear my Sgt giving me the "Asshole talk" in the back of my mind. Just wanted to clarify my tone.
Geissele....and forget about it........
I agree.
AR triggers are funny, I've been pulling them for 23 years and a Frankenstein lower that I built with trigger parts from Bushmaster and my friends parts draw is the best stock AR trigger I've ever felt, but even this lucky trigger will be replaced with a Geissele.
TangoSauce
02-13-12, 01:12
I only run Geissele. The trigger is one of the most important places you can put money in on your rifle, so why skimp?
Thank you for your understanding.
I don't want to represent myself as some hard-core HS/LD, face shooting BAMF who's too cool for school.
I am a street patrol deputy in Orlando, FL. Anything can happen in a city/county/metro area this big. I need to be as ready as reasonably can be. That's all.
I re-read my previous post and I could hear my Sgt giving me the "Asshole talk" in the back of my mind. Just wanted to clarify my tone.
Oh, I didn't mean to direct that toward you or anyone in particular. Just that there are some guys who use a rifle in their line of work... I'm not one of them but apparently you are.
I only run Geissele. The trigger is one of the most important places you can put money in on your rifle, so why skimp?
Wasn't really sure about what I perceived to be hype, after adding two SSA's I am a believer to say the least. :dance3:
I only run Geissele. The trigger is one of the most important places you can put money in on your rifle, so why skimp?
Most important for what? Bench shooting, maybe.
I only run Geissele. The trigger is one of the most important places you can put money in on your rifle, so why skimp?
Even if I were in to bench shooting I would disagree with you. The barrel is where it is at. You can train a clumsy finger but you can't train a shitty barrel.
TangoSauce
02-14-12, 09:36
:rolleyes:
Battle*Hound
02-14-12, 11:52
I too have been running a RRA two stage. While I don't have 10k on it, I haven't had any problems. If others have had legit issues with this trigger maybe it's something I need to look into. Better safe than sorry! I can't imagine the sunk feeling when you truly need it and it doesn't work. :eek: Time to do some homework.
BufordTJustice
02-15-12, 06:56
Even if I were in to bench shooting I would disagree with you. The barrel is where it is at. You can train a clumsy finger but you can't train a shitty barrel.
I'm going to disagree here...and frame my disagreement within the context of a skilled shooter being behind the gun.
I'll use a sportscar analogy. For guns and cars, there are obviously certain minimum requirements that must be met for the equipment to be competitive. We're not talking about cheap LPK triggers nor are we talking about Model-1 Sales barrels.
*****************
I'll consider the barrel as a analog for the racing tires on a car...they (along with the suspension) determine the amount of absolute grip the car can generate in a corner.
The Trigger on an AR is much like the steering wheel....it is defined by it's tactile feedback and its ability to transmit what is happening at the front wheels to the driver's hands in a meaningful and understandable way.
The tires may be capable of, say 1.05g of absolute lateral cornering force in a controlled environment. However, in a dynamic environment, the driver's ability to take advantage of as much of that grip as possible is determined and limited by the steering feel he has.
***********************
If you give me a trained shooter who has to shoot under any type of time constraint within 200 yards, I would rather put that shooter behind a BCM barrel'd gun with a Geissele SSA than a Noveske/Lothar-Walther/PacNor/Krieger barrel'd gun with a quality stock milspec trigger.
I'd take that bet ten times out of ten.
But that's me...
If you give me a trained shooter who has to shoot under any type of time constraint within 200 yards, I would rather put that shooter behind a BCM barrel'd gun with a Geissele SSA than a Noveske/Lothar-Walther/PacNor/Krieger barrel'd gun with a quality stock milspec trigger.
I'd take that bet ten times out of ten.
But that's me...
At 200 yards? Sure, I would take that bet at 200 yards. But I would not call BCM a shitty barrel. Take an Oly arms barreled rifle and this SSA I have laying around and I'll shoot my 12.5 Noveske with a stock trigger.
My point: You cannot overcome the faults in a barrel that throws shit unpredictably. You can learn to shoot better with less than exemplary trigger. That is without a doubt true.
BufordTJustice
02-15-12, 08:31
At 200 yards? Sure, I would take that bet at 200 yards. But I would not call BCM a shitty barrel. Take an Oly arms barreled rifle and this SSA I have laying around and I'll shoot my 12.5 Noveske with a stock trigger.
My point: You cannot overcome the faults in a barrel that throws shit unpredictably. You can learn to shoot better with less than exemplary trigger. That is without a doubt true.
My whole point: We're NOT using a shitty barrel. Keep barrel quality the same and put a better trigger on it and you'll see a more objectively measurable improvement than by keeping the trigger the same and improving the barrel.
You can never 'fix' software problems by hardware solutions. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about remedying a deficiency....we're talking about maximizing a shooter's ability.
Once you cross over the not-so-high threshold into true milspec quality barrels (BCM/DD/Colt), the trigger becomes a MUCH bigger factor in a skilled shooter's performance than an equal amount of money applied to a barrel of superior quality. Especially when the cadence of fire increase, or firing must be done under stress.
I say this as a person who is more than proficient with a stock milspec trigger.
I don't think anybody is advocating slapping a premium (or even a quality aftermarket) trigger into a shitty gun. The best advice in that situ is always going to be to buy a gun that is not a piece of shit.
EDIT:
Here's a concrete example. Colt 6920 w/ stock milspec trigger. A decently skilled shooter will see a more immediate and measurable positive impact on his splits and his accuracy scores if he upgrades to a GA SD-C/E, SSA, SSA-E, etc as opposed to a scenario where he keeps his stock Colt trigger and he pays for a premium quality barrel (and let's even say he free floats it as well).
Just look at what the modern DMR/SPR rifles look like....high quality milspec barrels (often Chrome lined) with GOOD triggers (Either Geissele or KAC).
My whole point: We're NOT using a shitty barrel. Keep barrel quality the same and put a better trigger on it and you'll see a more objectively measurable improvement than by keeping the trigger the same and improving the barrel.
.
Maybe I missed something here but I'm speaking in general terms not about whatever it is that you have. I'll leave it at that.
My whole point: We're NOT using a shitty barrel. Keep barrel quality the same and put a better trigger on it and you'll see a more objectively measurable improvement than by keeping the trigger the same and improving the barrel.
You can never 'fix' software problems by hardware solutions. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about remedying a deficiency....we're talking about maximizing a shooter's ability.
Once you cross over the not-so-high threshold into true milspec quality barrels (BCM/DD/Colt), the trigger becomes a MUCH bigger factor in a skilled shooter's performance than an equal amount of money applied to a barrel of superior quality. Especially when the cadence of fire increase, or firing must be done under stress.
I say this as a person who is more than proficient with a stock milspec trigger.
I don't think anybody is advocating slapping a premium (or even a quality aftermarket) trigger into a shitty gun. The best advice in that situ is always going to be to buy a gun that is not a piece of shit.
EDIT:
Here's a concrete example. Colt 6920 w/ stock milspec trigger. A decently skilled shooter will see a more immediate and measurable positive impact on his splits and his accuracy scores if he upgrades to a GA SD-C/E, SSA, SSA-E, etc as opposed to a scenario where he keeps his stock Colt trigger and he pays for a premium quality barrel (and let's even say he free floats it as well).
Just look at what the modern DMR/SPR rifles look like....high quality milspec barrels (often Chrome lined) with GOOD triggers (Either Geissele or KAC).
I know I'm replying to a two year old thread but this hits home right now since i've been searching for a low cost option to the SSA trigger. I'm replying to this post because I have three SSA triggers in my ARs but for a build I'm doing I'm looking for something a little cheaper. I agree that a great trigger really does do a lot to improve grouping. I own a Colt 6920 that had a stock mil spec trigger and I had put about 900 rounds through it before upgrading to a SSA. I immediately noticed better grouping. I would say that the barrel obvously playe a huge role in how well a rifle will group, but there is a lot to say about going from a trigger with a 9 pound pull to a 4.5 lb pull weight with a SSA trigger. So back to my point; it looks like the ACT trigger is a great low cost option to a mil spec trigger for a fighting rifle.
In the ALG line what is the difference between the ACT and QMS other than $20?
In the ALG line what is the difference between the ACT and QMS other than $20?
http://algdefense.com/triggers.html
The ACT has components coated with Nickel-Boron & Nickel-Teflon. The QMS does not.
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