View Full Version : New LWRC Variant: Sheepdog
For anyone interested: like the SPR without the candy cane barrel. Check it out:
http://www.larsenfirearms.com/specials.php
The dealer says price is $2265 for those paying cash or check.
IrishDevil
02-03-12, 17:26
All LWRC is crap issues/piston isn't necessary aside, I really don't see the value at that price point.
So don't get one if you don't want it?
IrishDevil
02-03-12, 17:33
I was just commenting with my perception, oh and by the way nice shill attempt.
No shit. It's not hard to spot the LWRCi friends/family/wives on this site. Damn they've been hitting us hard the last few weeks.
LWRCi SUCKS ASS!!!
DeltaSierra
02-03-12, 17:52
LWRCi SUCKS ASS!!!
Mark, you are getting a bit slow in your old age, I mean, you got here in time for the #5 post? :D
I know.... there's other things in life besides watching for LWRCi employee posts on the forum. :D
It's a great price though!! 22 hundo for a hunk of shit!!!
Shill attempt, what is that? I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything.
I don't work for LWRC, I'm a cop.
mrosamilia
02-03-12, 17:58
Just love the bullshit love it as before get a life!!!
Shill attempt, what is that? I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything.
I don't work for LWRC, I'm a cop.
Don't sweat it. Remind yourself there's no age requirement here.
I like the looks, but what idiot thought of that name?
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/rocketmanmtb/f05d0d75.jpg
lol that dog looks like a muppet :p
Don't sweat it. Remind yourself there's no age requirement here.
I like the looks, but what idiot thought of that name?
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g219/rocketmanmtb/f05d0d75.jpg
There's a link to the explanation at the bottom of the product page.
It's actually a nice rifle. I think if I were in the market for an M6 I'd go for it, except for that I'm not .. yet- it costs a lot too!
It's not easy to ease into a platform that gets some bad luck here and there. I hope to see that change soon with the "improvements" they apparently put in their rifles. For now I'm leery. But still kinda want it. haha
As for bashing friends of LWRC, it seems no one bashes people when they post about a great price on a Colt. Just sayin'
Haven't had any bad luck with the three I own *shrug* They've come a long way/changed a lot since their early days (2007-08ish)
DeltaSierra
02-03-12, 19:19
As for bashing friends of LWRC, it seems no one bashes people when they post about a great price on a Colt. Just sayin'
Duh, Colt isn't LWRC...
Really though, I have seen more LWRC threads than I have for any other brand.
I don't care what LWRC is doing.
I don't care what they are peddling today, nor will I care tomorrow.
They sell snake oil.
You don't need the op-rod, and I have no use for a company that produces a line of op-rod snake oil that does nothing better than any decent quality DI rifle at twice the cost.
If you want an op-rod, fine. I'm sick of trying to explain the whole op-rod issue over and over again...
People don't need expensive paintings in their house, yet there's a market for that too.
Duh, Colt isn't LWRC...
Great statement. hahaha
Read what LAV had to say about LWRCI and PWS guns in the " Ask the SME section of the forum under Ask Larry Vickers. 8 questions down: H&K 416 or? :D
mrosamilia
02-03-12, 20:23
Read what LAV had to say about LWRCI and PWS guns in the " Ask the SME section of the forum under Ask Larry Vickers. 8 questions down: H&K 416 or? :D
Wow!!! I am as I have stated not a fanboy by any means, or a professional. I just get tired of senseless bullshit!! I think that sums it up for me get a life. I see I do not have a ton of posts also??? Yes!! I happen to have a life!! Ok with LAV OK for MR
Duh, Colt isn't LWRC...
Really though, I have seen more LWRC threads than I have for any other brand.
I don't care what LWRC is doing.
I don't care what they are peddling today, nor will I care tomorrow.
They sell snake oil.
You don't need the op-rod, and I have no use for a company that produces a line of op-rod snake oil that does nothing better than any decent quality DI rifle at twice the cost.
If you want an op-rod, fine. I'm sick of trying to explain the whole op-rod issue over and over again...
Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it's essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.
jonconsiglio
02-03-12, 23:50
Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it's essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.
The KAC SR15 brings alot to the table for the price. A $180 trigger, a $390 bolt carrier group, $190 rear sight, ambi lower and what was once a $500 URX II, but now a little over $300. If you tried to build a KAC SR15 from parts, you'd be a few hundred over the MSRP. The selling price is a couple hundred less than MSRP.
A majority of piston rifles use standard parts but toss a rod in there. That's not a $1,000 step up from a Colt. Even if the hand guard was $500, the rod is still not a $500 step up.
These are the sorts of threads that are quickly locked on occasion. I don't see how people just attack the piston or direct impingement because one, actually far more than one, company makes a bad model and that somehow makes any other model that uses the same action bad as well.
As far as I understand the main issue about pistons is that they cause carrier tilt due to a lack of an o-ring. The other complaint is parts availability and lastly is price for civilians and difficulty with Tulammo, if you believe the YouTube dirt shooters who say that the piston companies only use the expensive ammo for testing, not that the companies are vying for military contracts and use military grade ammo for testing.
Most detractors from direct impingement models will point to Vietnam because they assume that M16s and the like did not change since Vietnam.
I can see telling people not to buy a low quality piston, like what I've seen about POF on this forum, but a 416 upper should be at least as reliable as a TDPed upper. Now if only they didn't cost $3500 and only have a supply on HKParts.net.... I see more high quality direct impingement models in most users' foreseeable future.
Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it's essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.
except being 2x or more as accurate, and/or having a fully ambi lower...
Accuracy is not snake oil, its a quantified veriable, as are times provided by a shot timer when doing drills (weak hand/ambi lower).
On a side note, the word "sheepdog" reminds me of "judge" for some reason.
The KAC SR15 brings alot to the table for the price. A $180 trigger, a $390 bolt carrier group, $190 rear sight, ambi lower and what was once a $500 URX II, but now a little over $300. If you tried to build a KAC SR15 from parts, you'd be a few hundred over the MSRP. The selling price is a couple hundred less than MSRP.
A majority of piston rifles use standard parts but toss a rod in there. That's not a $1,000 step up from a Colt. Even if the hand guard was $500, the rod is still not a $500 step up.
Well put
Littlelebowski
02-04-12, 07:40
No shit. It's not hard to spot the LWRCi friends/family/wives on this site. Damn they've been hitting us hard the last few weeks.
LWRCi SUCKS ASS!!!
You need to give it a ****ing rest, dude. Seriously. You are actually foaming at the mouth and having a fit, eh?
Littlelebowski
02-04-12, 07:42
On a side note, the word "sheepdog" reminds me of "judge" for some reason.
Same here. Can't stand the term sheepdog.
Same here. Can't stand the term sheepdog.
It seems to have been taken on by the out of shape, un-trained, lumbering, suburban dad contingent. As if it somehow conveys a mindset and willingness that will overcome all those other things when it really matters.
On the OP, my question would be what do you get in this package that you don't get with a similarly configured Larue or Noveske at a lower price?
This whole tho of "to each their own" is both accurate (waste your money however you like) but also a cop out in these discussions and seems to convey a lack of any quantifiable argument in favor of the utterer's position.
SWATcop556
02-04-12, 08:30
I personally don't have a need for a piston rifle but some due. Ive been recently introduced to a few people who use LWRC rifles operationally without issues.
I'm aware of the past history with the company but I also know people who I respect who have no issues with the rifles so there are two sides to everything.
If you want to spend the money then get after it. I don't have a need for one but that's just me.
As for people deliberately seeking out LWRC threads just to scream from the mountain tops, it's getting old. We get it, people hate LWRC and that's fine but this is a site for ALL. If people wish to discuss shortcomings of this rifle or that rifle in a professional manner like adilts, well that's what we are all here for. Posting further equivalents of "**** you and your LWRC" needs to stop. Consider this a public warning to all.
mrosamilia
02-04-12, 08:40
I personally don't have a need for a piston rifle but some due. Ive been recently introduced to a few people who use LWRC rifles operationally without issues.
I'm aware of the past history with the company but I also know people who I respect who have no issues with the rifles so there are two sides to everything.
If you want to spend the money then get after it. I don't have a need for one but that's just me.
As for people deliberately seeking out LWRC threads just to scream from the mountain tops, it's getting old. We get it, people hate LWRC and that's fine but this is a site for ALL. If people wish to discuss shortcomings of this rifle or that rifle in a professional manner like adilts, well that's what we are all here for. Posting further equivalents of "**** you and your LWRC" needs to stop. Consider this a public warning to all.
AMEN!!!!!! Can't we all just get along.. I am here to learn and become a more informed individual in my chosen hobby.:)
It seems to have been taken on by the out of shape, un-trained, lumbering, suburban dad contingent. As if it somehow conveys a mindset and willingness that will overcome all those other things when it really matters.
On the OP, my question would be what do you get in this package that you don't get with a similarly configured Larue or Noveske at a lower price?
This whole tho of "to each their own" is both accurate (waste your money however you like) but also a cop out in these discussions and seems to convey a lack of any quantifiable argument in favor of the utterer's position.
Why does it have to be an argument in the first place?
To answer your question:
http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/
Scroll down past the uppers and read. The NiCorr'd upper assembly and tilt-less carrier come to mind, but that article goes into extensive detail.
(Thanks for the back, SWATcop.)
If an overpriced piston with proprietary parts is appealing, then by all means get one.
I prefer to stick with a DI gun that uses parts easily located on the open market and can be easily torn apart and repaired or modified by moi.
The only parts that have any sort of a service life besides the barrel (which goes for all firearms) is the piston cup and the return spring.
Easily located here: http://www.lwrci.com/c-66-piston-parts.aspx
Easily installed by the end user. YMMV.
Why does it have to be an argument in the first place?
To answer your question:
http://www.expeditionexchange.com/lwrc/
Scroll down past the uppers and read. The NiCorr'd upper assembly and tilt-less carrier come to mind, but that article goes into extensive detail.
(Thanks for the back, SWATcop.)
So the extra features it offers are features necessary to make up for including a piston system to begin with? I'm confused. Why no just use the DI system that doesn't impart carrier tilt so that I don't need an anti-tilt carrier?
mrosamilia
02-04-12, 10:27
I can only speak for myself but after running off 500 or so rounds I like the cleanup simplicity. I am not by any means well off but I work hard so therefor I play hard price doesn't even factor for me when it comes to my toys not to mention something my life may depend on..
Now having said that my only LWRC product to date is a 16" REPR that I love and have had zero issues with. My current 5.56 crew includes two SR15's and a 6920. FWIW
So the extra features it offers are features necessary to make up for including a piston system to begin with? I'm confused.
So am I. How did you come to that conclusion? That read-up is demonstrating that, aside from being free from the usual fare of piston AR myths and false facts, those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market, for one, and two, they're not compensating for a piston system by including those features. Those are just standard for their whole lineup.
Why no just use the DI system that doesn't impart carrier tilt so that I don't need an anti-tilt carrier?
If it makes you feel any better, the .300 AAC BLK PSD they developed is a DI weapon (their first one, at that.) But besides the DI system, it still has all the same features as their other rifles, further testifying to the fact that none of said aforementioned features are included for any reason having to do with or "make up for" the piston system at all.
So am I. How did you come to that conclusion? That read-up is demonstrating that, aside from being free from the usual fare of piston AR myths and false facts, those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market, for one, and two, they're not compensating for a piston system by including those features. Those are just standard for their whole lineup.
If it makes you feel any better, the .300 AAC BLK PSD they developed is a DI weapon (their first one, at that.) But besides the DI system, it still has all the same features as their other rifles, further testifying to the fact that none of said aforementioned features are included for any reason having to do with or "make up for" the piston system at all.
I seem to recall a bunch of LWRC DI BCG's being sold off for CHEAP a few years back. Everyone scrambled to get one IIRC.
I see that this is becoming (started out as?) one of those "I bought it so I'm going to defend it" things so I'll leave you to your fun.
That's strange, I don't recall them ever doing that. They only just recently developed one for the M4 PIP:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad230/Rebellious_AMG/IMG_2945.jpg
I see that this is becoming (started out as?) one of those "I bought it so I'm going to defend it" things so I'll leave you to your fun.
I don't have to defend my rifles, they can defend themselves. Seriously, I'm not trying to justify an expense, just clearing up whatever misconceptions you might have in a professional and informative matter.
DeltaSierra
02-04-12, 10:57
Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you feel about a DI AR of a similar price point? Something along the lines of KAC or Larue? Since it's essentially not doing anything better than a decent AR at twice the cost would you consider that snake oil of a different flavor or more justified of an expense than a piston gun? Thanks.
The SR-15 is fully ambidextrous, and the bolt/barrel extension has been redesigned, resulting in a longer service life. So, yes, the SR-15 does something different (arguably even 'better') than a standard Colt or BCM.
The Larue is a specialty rifle, intended for certain applications that require a high degree of precision. So yes, it is doing something 'better' than your standard Colt/BCM rifle.
When you are adding ambidextrous features, or increasing accuracy, that falls into a different category than adding cost without adding any real benefit.
Ok, I read it, assuming you compare it to a good ar that costs 1/3 up to the same price, and follows the tdp:
They mention small parts compromise of small bcg parts. Gas rings(if weapon is made well) last for 1000s or rounds. Gas keys are staked, so that's a non-issue, I've never heard of ejector parts failing from heat due to DI, could be true, but I have not experienced nor read about it.
They mention early extraction, I was under the impression that this was an over gassing problem, but I really don't know so If someone more knowledgeable could shed light, it would be appreciated.
Bolt material and testing is not mentioned. Also, is there now more risk of the bolt lugs failing due to increased stress from lack of DI?
They look like they run very clean, which is nice, and they appear remove some scheduled maintenance. I would consider these to be convenience with the extra $1k better spent on ammo or training (for my purposes). I still do not see what they do better than a DI ar, other than run cleaner(and how much does this really affect function?). If someone has or wants one, that's fine. However, the claims that the materials are better are still not backed up from sources I've seen.
The reason larues and noveskes don't have tilt-less carriers is because they use the standard DI system which doesn't cause the carrier to tilt in the first place. Stoner designed the origional anti-tilt carrier;)!
Im still not sold on them. If you want one, or buy one, I'll give you more power. They look well made, but due to the way I analyze the data I've seen, I'll stick with other options for now. That said, I will never be in a situation where I have to fire more than 400rnds without at least adding lube, or have a chance to do a wipe-down, so the only possible advantage I see does not help me any.
those are some of the best barrels/barrel assemblies on the market
Maybe I missed this part, but who makes the blanks and who finishes them? I saw no mention of the steel they use, or manufacturing process. What makes them the best?
mrosamilia
02-04-12, 11:15
I think poster was speaking of the Nicor coating of barrel and BCG
Jesus ****, can we please stop pounding upon the "LWRC sucks" drum, based upon the state of the company 4-6 years ago? Hate what you want to hate, but if it's not going to be done based upon current status, it's just a grudge, and it needn't involve anybody else but the grudge-holder.
Markm, as whimsical as it is when you do that, if you're gonna keep doing "LWRC sucks" as a stand-alone statement, without the benefit of CURRENT, verifiable evidence to back it up, you're gonna start taking dings for baiting/instigating. Your current catchphrase, as amusing as it is, is old news. Like, "Dewey Defeats Truman" headline old news....
And, OP, for the record, LWRC did not develop that thing for any aspect of the M16FoW PIP, they ginned it up for submission for consideration for the M16FoW PIP. Big difference, especially since your statement is meant to carry some wort of weight without the benefit of weight to be had.
Get it straight, if you're gonna sling these little cherry-picking answers and for-examples. The whole thread indicates that you've a lot to learn about pistons in general and LWRC in particular to speak from a position of authority in regard to either the rifle/company or what gov't entities are using them or their components.
Get what you wanna get, but unless you're gonna do any two of the following three things:
-- SBR
-- full-auto
-- suppressed
....then the money spent on any piston gun is money better spent on a correctly-outfitted DI model. If you ARE doing 2 of those 3, then have at it.
Also, IG spoke to "proprietary" parts, NOT parts service-life. He brought up parts that are only sourced from a single entity, and you may as well have responded by saying that the Mets won the '69 World Series. Completely irrelevant, and serves to highlight the making of excuses, not the passage of information.
I'd best hear a loud popping noise in the near future, indicating that your head is pried free of your poop-chute and that you're willing to ASK QUESTIONS, instead of make assertions you're clearly not qualified to make.
To the jackass that slung out "Colt = overpriced" earlier.....you need to pay more attention to better market sources than you currently are, based on that statement. Colt's got serious competitors, now, and the prices match the competitiveness of the market.
Sometimes, you guys make me reeeeeally sad. :(
Where'd you get the impression that I was speaking from a position of authority rather than years of personal end user experience and primary information from LWRC itself via their forum and employees?
I understand you're a moderator and SME, so there's no disrespect intended here, but between professionals, please don't insult my intelligence. I know what I'm talking about.
If we can agree to disagree, there's no need for hostility.
The parts where you're telling others stuff that's wrong instead of asking whether you have the right of one thing or another gave me both the impression and the confirmation that you've been attempting to speak from authority.
I already outlined a couple of areas that indicate that the "I know what I'm talking about" assertion is sketchy, at best.
It's pretty well impossible to insult an abstract concept like intelligence, having, as it does, no feelings of its own. Having pointed out that areas in which it's failing you will have to suffice in the interim during which you may or may not figure that out for yourself.
And, point of order, I got tagged as an Industry Professional, which only has bearing on being able to point out where you don't have insight on the industry (which didn't stop you from making statements along those lines).
As for Moderator, that's kinda like having a sign around my neck that says "Smartest Retard." BUT, on that basis: you got told what to do, and instead of doing it, decided to publicly pule and whine, so this is now happening as a result of your inability to follow instructions...
Just for confirmation, I was also getting ready to lock this thread for it's pretty useless signal to noise ratio.
If someone would like to re-start it, and skip all the anti-LWRC hatred, and baseless conjecture on features/needs, we can do that.
Otherwise, we can just call it a day, and let this subject die.
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