View Full Version : The two biggest problems with using a knife for personal protectiion
The thing that pisses me off with all the knife fighting BS out there is that they continually to ignore the two biggest issues when it comes to using a knife for personal protection.
#1 Defining for the student exactly what situations would actually cause them to draw their knife. In firearms this shoot/don't shoot training. A knife is deadly force option, so if my understanding of use of force is correct you would have to be defending against deadly force. Lets look at a few possible scenarios. They all start with your knife in your pocket.
A) You are attacked open handed, at least in my eyes this is not justification to produce your knife.
B) You are attacked with an impact weapon. Even a short impact weapon like a tire iron is going to give your attacker the advantage of distance. If you manage to identify the threat and get your knife out and attempt a cut or a stab, it is likely to be much less effective then their blow to your skull.
C) They have a knife, this really all comes down to range, but this is the one that so many people like to train for and proclaim knife fighting prowess.
D) They have a gun, and if they are holding it on your and not shooting, you going for your knife and then attempting to close distance will likely get you shot.
E) You are attacked by more than one person, but none of them are armed. The law is on your side if you pull the knife. If you manage to single one out and cut or stab him and the others can see they will likely be inclined to leave. But it is more likely that they will rush you not seeing the knife. The knife requires motion to be effective, and once they are on top of you it will be hard to create that motion.
While working the street I made it habit during all walk up contacts to have my closed ASP in my hand. I would have rather carried a straight stick but we were not allowed. With a flick of the wrist I had what I believe is the best tool to deal with spontaneous open hand, edged weapon, or impact weapon attacks. If the threat,time and opportunity allowed I practiced dropping my baton and in the same motion drawing my pistol.
It made sense to me to walk up using a tool that could subtly carry in my hand that gave me the most options for dealing with threats that were not obvious deadly force situations.
#2 Showing the student exactly how hard it is to deploy a knife under stress.
Just as I am not impressed by someone who can draw a pistol on the buzzer and dump a magazine into the A zone of an IDPA target, I am not impressed with someone who is fast as lightening with a knife already in their hand. The goal is decisive, defensible decision making, and the ability to get your knife out if you ever have the chance.
IDPA is a sport, not a life or death situation in which someone is trying to impress you.
But yes, a knife is among the poorest of self-defense implement choices.
But yes, a knife is among the poorest of self-defense implement choices.
For most, yes, because the training and discipline to become proficient is very intense. Steve Tarani might have a different view of the value of a knife in self defense.
I will stick with my pistols because I don't have the mindset to master the knife.
I respectfully disagree. The people committing the vast majority of edged weapon assaults and homicides do so with little or no formal training using mostly box cutters and steak knives. According to my research whether a POS in or out of prison they usually carry a weapon with with a cutting surface of sub 3 inches.
IMHO edged weapon survival should be based on dealing with spontaneous, violent, cyclic attacks using open hand skills. This as a tool to bridge you to another force option.
Judging from much of the training offered, a uninformed person would believe that they should spend their time training on a knife fight and not edged weapon survival.- George
In the county i live in, in NY concealed carry is basically non-existant. Batons are also illegal.
That leaves me with a blade, which even then is a legal gamble depending on which way the wind is blowing that day.
So unfortunately I can't even debate it all. Yea.... If it were up to me I'd walk the dog with a Glock as my companion and leave toe blade to house chores.
For me a knife is a last ditch weapon. If the guy is crawling all over me and there's no way for me to reasonably draw and shoot, or it's a gun grab attempt, I may use the offhand with a fixed blade to cut them off me. I'd still prefer to shoot from the two, but that may not be an option.
I have deep respect for knives and the scars to prove it. That doesn't give me any illusions that I'm a master knife fighter. I have an acute aversion to being cut, therefore getting into a knife fight is very high on my list of things to not do. I figure my best option to avoid it is situational awareness and as always, watch the hands.
HawaiianM4
02-03-12, 23:43
For most of us a knife is really the only thing we can carry on the street. I usually have a flashlight as well. I have had situations where I had a knife in my hand unopenned and ready. It is easy to put it back in your pocket. And were I have had to open and fight with it I have walked away.
I think if would be rather difficult unless very well trained to pull a knife after a situation has already developed.
How it can be used in a law enforcement vs civilian situation I think is different as well. Law enforcement is follow some department guidelines. Civilian carry is by state laws.
If you need to be that close your elbow to their throat will be more effective. They can't kill you if they can't breathe and you can get away fast before they are completely asphyxiated. Just don't hit them in the wrong spot or you might as well not have done it in the first place. On second thought that might be just as hard as using a pocket knife.
After the damge I've inflicted upon myself, especially the most resent 8 stitch incident I deff have a deep respect for what a blade can do.
And not to get more off topic but there's been a lot of random dog attacks on my block lately and I've bumped into more than one stray pit with no colar on at 3am while walking my dog. I've had to draw it before and feel extremely naked without my blade.
When income permits I'll trade in the hoods for the woods.
I respectfully disagree. The people committing the vast majority of edged weapon assaults and homicides do so with little or no formal training using mostly box cutters and steak knives. According to my research whether a POS in or out of prison they usually carry a weapon with with a cutting surface of sub 3 inches.
Reflecting on your comments, I do agree with you on surviving rather than fighting with a knife, ..... or pistol when you are too close to the assailant. I believe your original premise of the shorcomings of a knife for self defense is not reflective of the real dialogue here.
And, come to think of it, a large portion of Tarani's class is movement to avoid the attack if possible, and blocking the attack to gain space for survival.
A mutt as you described who is 10' away with a concealed knife and the intent to do you harm in a sudden attack will most likely make contact to your body somewhere with his blade.
A skilled knife operator like Tarani, with the element of surprise, could cut both your femoral and brachial arteries, your throat, and kiss you goodbye before you could draw and shoot him.
Old but informative video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5231BF743921C505
You are more likely to face a convicted felon high on meth than a "trained" knife fighter. In that case you have a few things going for you.
First, most edged weapons the goblins carry are either good at slashing or stabbing and seldom both. This coupled with what I have found to be primitive vs trained motion will have them attack violently and repeatedly in one of two basis ways.
Angle #1 which is a slash traveling high right to low left for a right handed attacker. Will look like a round house punch.
Angle #1 is a stab at any angle. It will most often be overhand but in some cases underhand.
Once they make contact it is likely that task fixation will set in and they will continue the same angles of attack. Here (http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/combatives/defending-against-the-modern-edged-weapons-threat/) his something I wrote a while ago on dealing with edged weapons.
Cesiumsponge
02-04-12, 09:11
My question with the knife training out there is that a lot of it starts off as a scenario with two people with knives in their hand facing one another. It comes from the assumption this is some sort of mutual combat or duel when a reasonable and prudent law-abiding citizen is never going to agree to mutual combat. Does this come from the sporting mentality of martial arts?
Traditional knife fighting has its roots in cultural martial arts and the military. Neither had laws or civil suits to worry about. They also allowed the used to be on the offensive. Another key element is that they all used fixed blades....big fixed blades. You can see how this is a radical departure from our reality.
We have to worry about departmental (police), criminal, and civil issues.
We are going to be on the defensive.
Because of state or local laws, company/departmental policy, and easy of carry the vast majority of people carry a folder of some sort.
The one on one training your are referring to, with both people having exposed blades and starting at a distance is what I call "knife dancing'. And boy, does it sell.
My thing is open hand, stick, edged weapons, and the pistol within seven yards. This is what I call 7 X 7. If I had to pick one thing that we concentrate on more than the other it would be open hand skills. The will allow you to deal with the vast majority of situations, provide the initial response allowing you to get deploy a weapon, and are you final option if your weapon fails.
Since I started teaching full time over the last five years I have found that people who turn up at classes are either guncentric or knifecentric. They have put a lot of time and money into one of the other and during force on force have a tendency to try to shoehorn them into every scenario, even when it just does not fit.
I would imagine that even those reading this who do not consider their knife as a weapon would not hesitate to use it as such to survive. That said can you imagine carrying a pistol around that you had never attempted to draw under stress and engage a threat? Silly right, but most people carrying knives are doing exactly that.
I have not been around this forum much, and don't want to be seen as self-promoting when I am only trying to provoke more discussion on training over tools. However I did create something called Inverted Edge Tactics as down and dirty option that is fast to learn for anyone who wants to know how to effectively cut someone off of them. It all started a few years back when buddy of mine who worked for a federal agency that only allowed them to carry a Spyderco Rescue Jr came to me asking how he could use it as a back up weapon.
I will write more about it soon for those of you who don't want to study cultural knife fighting but rather gain a skill set to use what you already carry.- George
The thing that pisses me off with all the knife fighting BS out there is that they continually to ignore the two biggest issues when it comes to using a knife for personal protection.
Thanx for that info. My limited experience made me conclude a knife was not a good choice as a defense weapon. The short course work I did made me feel I was better spending time learning empty hand defense for a knife, then viewing it as a defense tool per se.
I will say the instructor was very honest about that, and mirrored much of your comments. You were very unlikely (at least in the US) to face a well trained person, and as a rule, unless trained with a knife to a very high level, best not get into knife/knife encounters, and best to work on empty hands.
I will say, growing up in Brooklyn NY in the 70s, seen my fair share of knives with ill intent. Didn't like it one damn bit.
Going slightly OT, one observation I have noted (and I'm sure it's not an original observation) is that those with a gun when faced with a knife, become "gun centric" and it puts them at a serious disadvantage in that under 21ft distance.
The vid posted shows exactly that it seems. Other observation not in favor of the person with the gun, via that vid is, the vid makes two assumptions that figures 21 ft min distance to draw and get shots off effectively:
(1) the shooter will actually hit the target, which charging at you trying to kill you much easier said then done. My experience using things like air soft, moving targets coming at you quickly in IDPA, etc, has shown me it's not hard to miss at all from that fast closing distance
(2) That those shots that hit meat will actually stop the person who is charging at you. As you know, many perps have been shot before, and don't just fall down on being shot, and unless the shots hit something that forced them to stop the attack, will not.
The above makes me want to be about 100 yards away, but that's not possible of course. :cool:
Thoughts?
Cesiumsponge
02-04-12, 09:55
People get too fixated on 21 feet. Tueller never claimed that 21 feet is a magic number. It was his average findings during that particular exercise he developed. It's really the fault of the gunrag writers and such that gave the 21 foot "rule" a life of it's own. As mentioned, that radius is going to grow or shrink depending on environmental factors. It also doesn't take into account how individuals will react to your applied stopping power. Like you said, some folks are going to keep fighting until the last drop of blood is gone and some folks will see they've been wounded and mentally shut down. It's an unknown.
Taking legalities into consideration, the only thing you can do is react on your training as each situation is different and dynamic. Ultimately the responsibility falls into your lap to articulate to law enforcement and the legal system on your course of actions, how it was legally justifiable, and back it up with training and education that make your decisions credible. Most training systems concentrate on the fighting part and not so much the legal aftermath. I've seen some batshit insane "systems" where you go on to attack downed threats with lethal moves, which would be considered murder because the lethal threat has ceased. Seems some folks are bringing old school military combatives to the civilian side haven't bothered to modify the program to properly fit in a civilian role. We can't go around snapping the necks of sentries
Using the 21 foot drill as a tool (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1219008#post1219008)
sandsunsurf
02-04-12, 11:08
I believe it's a bad idea to have anything in your hand when making a subject stop, even if you train to drop shit, it slows you down.
I look at the knife as a last resort tool- either close range and I'm slashing and stabbing the guy to get him off me or if somehow I've allowed a bad guy to get close enough to pull a gun and rob me. Almost the same response as with a gun: pin the attacker's hand/gun to his body and drive forward like a freight train. Shoot or stab/slash violently and aggressively.
Interesting thread. I really appreciate the realistic discussion on having people work through the scenarios when (or even IF) you'd deploy a knife. I think there's a tendency for everybody to carry a folder thinking I'll use this as a last ditch defense, but then when you realize how long and clumsy the process of deploying it is, if you're truly in a "last ditch" situation, you have to wonder how realistic it is that you could even deploy it in time. We've had this similar discussion here in another recent thread.
Along with that, I don't believe that "gear" is really the answer to how you analyze or solve this tactical challenge. But a PART of the answer might be in how you set up your gear. Recently, I've started experimenting with moving away from the idea of a folding knife as a "last ditch" fighting tool, mainly because I don't think it's realistic that I'd get it deployed in time in the kind of situations where I'd need it.
What I've done instead is go to a short fixed blade, and currently I'm carrying it Mercop's own "Mercharness" which is a paracord setup with a few rubber keepers that lets you sling a sheathed/fixed blade across your shoulders and hang it under your arm. It is very, very quick to draw my small fixed blade from this position, and because there is not an additional step of "opening" the blade, the deployment problem is much improved. This doesn't help you answer the question of WHEN (and in what situations) to deploy your blade, but if you have to, at least this carry method makes it fast enough to be a viable alternative. And I'm not sure if the traditional "folder clipped to the pocket" truly is a realistic alternative.
I have taken a few 'knife classes' always got cut, always got hurt, extremely difficult, to say the least,if not practically impossible to defend against a surprise attack, instructor, 99% of time, got student first, BUT instructor also got 'cut'. Stay alert and keep your distance, edged weapon defense/mastery is rare.
The fact is that proficiency with edged weapons is much harder than using a firearm.
The thing that pisses me off with all the knife fighting BS out there is that they continually to ignore the two biggest issues when it comes to using a knife for personal protection.
#1 Defining for the student exactly what situations would actually cause them to draw their knife. In firearms this shoot/don't shoot training. A knife is deadly force option, so if my understanding of use of force is correct you would have to be defending against deadly force. Lets look at a few possible scenarios. They all start with your knife in your pocket.
A) You are attacked open handed, at least in my eyes this is not justification to produce your knife.
B) You are attacked with an impact weapon. Even a short impact weapon like a tire iron is going to give your attacker the advantage of distance. If you manage to identify the threat and get your knife out and attempt a cut or a stab, it is likely to be much less effective then their blow to your skull.
C) They have a knife, this really all comes down to range, but this is the one that so many people like to train for and proclaim knife fighting prowess.
D) They have a gun, and if they are holding it on your and not shooting, you going for your knife and then attempting to close distance will likely get you shot.
E) You are attacked by more than one person, but none of them are armed. The law is on your side if you pull the knife. If you manage to single one out and cut or stab him and the others can see they will likely be inclined to leave. But it is more likely that they will rush you not seeing the knife. The knife requires motion to be effective, and once they are on top of you it will be hard to create that motion.
While working the street I made it habit during all walk up contacts to have my closed ASP in my hand. I would have rather carried a straight stick but we were not allowed. With a flick of the wrist I had what I believe is the best tool to deal with spontaneous open hand, edged weapon, or impact weapon attacks. If the threat,time and opportunity allowed I practiced dropping my baton and in the same motion drawing my pistol.
It made sense to me to walk up using a tool that could subtly carry in my hand that gave me the most options for dealing with threats that were not obvious deadly force situations.
#2 Showing the student exactly how hard it is to deploy a knife under stress.
Just as I am not impressed by someone who can draw a pistol on the buzzer and dump a magazine into the A zone of an IDPA target, I am not impressed with someone who is fast as lightening with a knife already in their hand. The goal is decisive, defensible decision making, and the ability to get your knife out if you ever have the chance.
i don't mean to disrespect in any way when i say this, and this is just an observation, i make no claim to know knife fighting, but it seems your reasoning is based on the myopia of i-have-a-knife-and-therefore-it's-the-only-weapon-i-have-at-my-disposal. this is described in the art of jeet kun do by bruce lee. one philosophical tenet of fighting (in bruce lee's mind) is that your whole body is a weapon. just because you have a knife in your pocket doesn't mean that's your only implement. focusing on the knife as your only weapon actually gives the advantage to the person who views their entire body as a weapon. there are ways to react to all the above situations sans knife, the knife in the end will give you one more tool at your disposal, hopefully when you have right time and opportunity to employ it, which doesn't have to be immediately.
You should just keep it concealed in your hand as you walk in the day, you don't have to conceal it at night because it's dark then.
This is of course assuming you're walking somewhere that you need a knife or other weapon on hand. You should also be able to break an opponent with your bare hands as well. That increases your chances of survival in any sort of street brawl.
Evil Colt 6920
02-10-12, 02:27
.....
i don't mean to disrespect in any way when i say this, and this is just an observation, i make no claim to know knife fighting, but it seems your reasoning is based on the myopia of i-have-a-knife-and-therefore-it's-the-only-weapon-i-have-at-my-disposal. this is described in the art of jeet kun do by bruce lee. one philosophical tenet of fighting (in bruce lee's mind) is that your whole body is a weapon. just because you have a knife in your pocket doesn't mean that's your only implement. focusing on the knife as your only weapon actually gives the advantage to the person who views their entire body as a weapon. there are ways to react to all the above situations sans knife, the knife in the end will give you one more tool at your disposal, hopefully when you have right time and opportunity to employ it, which doesn't have to be immediately.
None taken. I actually favor open hand combatives, impact weapons, firearms, and as a last resort edged weapons, but would do whatever needed to be done.- George
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