View Full Version : Minneapolis SWAT Team Raids Wrong House
This is a screwed up situation all around:
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Minneapolis SWAT Team Raids Wrong House
Tuesday , December 18, 2007
MINNEAPOLIS —
With her six kids and husband tucked into bed, Yee Moua was watching TV in her living room just after midnight when she heard voices — faint at first, then louder. Then came the sound of a window shattering.
Moua bolted upstairs, where her husband, Vang Khang, grabbed his shotgun from a closet, knelt and fired a warning shot through his doorway as he heard footsteps coming up the stairs. He let loose with two more blasts. Twenty-two bullets were fired back at him, by the family's count.
Then things suddenly became clear.
"It's the police! Police!" his sons yelled.
Khang, a Hmong immigrant with shaky command of English, set down his gun, raised his hands and was soon on the ground, an officer's boot on his neck.
The gunmen, it turned out, were members of a police SWAT team that had raided the wrong address because of bad information from an informant — a mistake that some critics say happens all too frequently around the country and gets innocent people killed.
"I have six kids, and only one mistake almost took my kids' life," said Moua, 29. "We will never forget this."
No one was hurt in the raid Sunday, conducted by a task force that fights drugs and gangs, though two police officers were hit by the shotgun blasts and narrowly escaped injury because they were wearing bulletproof vests.
Police apologized to the family and placed the seven officers on leave while it investigates what went wrong.
Such mistakes are a fact of police work, some experts said.
"Does going to the wrong address happen from time to time? Yes," said John Gnagey, executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association in Doylestown, Pa. "Do you corroborate as best you can the information the informant gives you? Absolutely. But still from time to time mistakes are made."
One of the biggest botched raids in recent years happened in Atlanta in 2006, when police killed a 92-year-old woman in a hail of nearly 40 bullets after she fired a shot at what she thought were intruders. Police had gone to her house on a drug raid, but no drugs were found.
Prosecutors said that in obtaining a search warrant, Atlanta police falsely told a judge that an informant had confirmed drug dealing there. The scandal led to a shake-up in the department, two officers pleaded guilty to manslaughter and civil rights charges, and the city faces at least two lawsuits.
Reliable figures on the frequency of erroneous raids are hard to come by. Federal agencies, including the FBI and the U.S. Marshals Service, said they do not keep track.
A study last year by the libertarian Cato Institute said: "Because of shoddy police work, over-reliance on informants, and other problems, each year hundreds of raids are conducted on the wrong addresses, bringing unnecessary terror and frightening confrontation to people never suspected of a crime."
Gnagey disputed the reliability of the research behind those figures, and said it is impossible to know whether they are too high or too low. He said no dependable estimates exist.
"Going to the wrong home is an extreme rarity," said Mark Robbins, a law enforcement professor at Minnesota State University, Mankato. "It's just unfortunate that when it does, it often ends up in violent and even tragic incidents."
In the Minneapolis case, the nature of the tip and precisely what police were looking for were not disclosed; they have not released the search warrant. And it was not clear how far off the mark the informant was in supplying the address.
No charges were brought against Khang, a laid-off machine operator who lives in crime-ridden north Minneapolis. Khang used the shotgun for hunting, said his brother, Dao Khang. In Minnesota, no license is required to own a shotgun.
Khang, who speaks some English but used an interpreter during an interview, said he does not remember hearing any calls of "Police!" until his sons shouted. He said he would never knowingly shoot at officers.
"That's why I reacted the way I did, to protect my family and two sons," said Khang, 34, whose children are ages 3 to 15.
Lt. Amelia Huffman, a police spokeswoman, said the information in the search warrant came from a source who had been reliable in the past.
Huffman said officers who routinely work on drug and gang cases are trained to try to corroborate their information. As for why the process didn't work this time, "that's one of the things the internal investigation will go through in exhaustive detail," she said.
The Hmong are hill people from Laos who aided the CIA during the Vietnam War by fighting the Viet Cong. Hmong refugees began arriving in Minnesota in the late 1970s, and there are perhaps 60,000 Hmong in Minnesota today.
The Khang family is living with relatives until the house gets cleaned up. The raid left six windows broken and walls and ceilings pocked with pellet and bullet holes.
"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said.
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Link to the article http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317398,00.html
Joe Mamma
I've heard of so many of these stories, (to include a former Team mate who heard guys stacking & thought it was a unit prank... and put down his .45 when crashed...) I think LE should suffer highly public severe punitive actions for lack of due diligence & not properly surveailing (sp?) a house before a raid.
What a recipe for disaster.
However inconvenant, a US residence need be treated as such. IMO There is no time sensative (enough) reason on a drug raid to forgoe such basic task which ensure the public safety.
TUNNEL RAT 33
12-19-07, 18:13
you have no idea how much this happens . either from some skell lying to save his neck or some coworker being too lazy to do his job and double and triple checking the intell . its always nice to know your hitting the right place let alone that there is kids or dogs or armed citizens on location . its nice to know that nobody was hurt and this guy wasnt charged .
QuickStrike
12-19-07, 18:33
Uuh...
Never really thought of this before when it comes to home defense. :eek:
Such mistakes are a fact of police work, some experts said.
IOW, "Such 'mistakes' don't become problems for us until one of our officers is killed. As long as it's just you 'civilians' dying it's 'just a fact of police work.'"
Cops that **** up on such a grand scale should go to prison. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, straight to jail. Anybody else would, regardless of profession, why shouldn't cops?
This is appalling every time we hear about it, especially since it probably (as some have stated) happens a lot more frequently than we could ever know. Given the stakes involved, ONE mistake like this is unforgiveable. There is no legitimate way to justify this. Not one. None.
This is a striking example of why so-called "no-knock" warrants are a supremely bad idea and should almost never (if ever) be used. Being able to catch real bad guys with evidence occasionally is not worth the risk of making a mistake.
I suspect that in some juridictions, had the homeowner successfully stopped the intruders, he would would have been prosecuted for his actions. He had every right to act as he did. I'm glad no one was hurt, but had ANYONE been injured, whether part of the family or one of the cops, it would have been solely the fault and responsibility of the police officers involved from the bottom up. I doubt if the law would see it that way everywhere, but that doesn't make it wrong.
There have been topics on a variety of forums discussing what to do under such circumstance, ranging from police making a mistake to non-badge wearing criminal intruders pretending to be police. Those who participate in such topics with legitimate questions and commentary are typically ridiculed. I find that unfortunate, because such things really can and do happen and we all need a plan for it as much as we need a plan for any other kind of home invasion.
Oops...
It is an imperfect world and things happen...
That is why they call them accidents...
Dust them off, say your sorry, buy them a new door, & move on...
Just my .02
Buck
Oops...
It is an imperfect world and things happen...
That is why they call them accidents...
Dust them off, say your sorry, buy them a new door, & move on...
Just my .02
Buck
Most folks who have "accidents" that involve a degree of negligence and result in another's death and/or property destruction don't get away with just issuing a mea culpa fella.
I wonder what you'd think if a truck driver pushing to meet a delivery deadline fell asleep and creamed your family.
An "accident" is unforseeable circumstance. This is gross negligance involving lethal force.
My amigos don't spill there blood across the globe moping up terrorist intent on spilling Western blood, to have the Constitution run-over in the US... violence spilling into housholds in America, by negligant, ignorant, lazy turds, hiding behind badges...
Some guy with a shady history, needing another fix points to a house & say's "yeah, I think that's it". And, it's good enough for a no-knock raid? Ask any DA, 99% of the time testimony from these CI's isn't reputable enough to get convictions & yet a PD executes a no-knock, with extremely high likelyhood of involving or inciting violence... I hope somebody burns.
Perspective garnered from working with Fed, State & local LE, and time as a municipal Paramedic. I'm not completely blind to domestic LE issues.
Oops...
It is an imperfect world and things happen...
That is why they call them accidents...
Dust them off, say your sorry, buy them a new door, & move on...
Just my .02
Buck
It was only a matter of time until we saw this. There is always at least one. :rolleyes:
And the dust "them" off comment is just pure, indignified unprofessionalism.
Perhaps a bit of surveillance or back-up intel before heavily armed, well trained officers go in ready to kill? Too much to ask for some?
twodollarbill
12-19-07, 21:19
Living here in Wisconsin we have seen our relationships with the Hmong
be tested over the past two years.
With this happening just over the border in Minnesota.....it put it right on
the front page again.
I commend the Chief for stepping forward and saying what happen was wrong
and meeting with the family as soon as he did.
Patrick Aherne
12-19-07, 21:20
Everybody needs to throttle back on the rhetoric until the investigation is done. The Cato Institute and Radly Balko can lick my sack. These events are extremely rare and unfortunate.
I am sure there will be changes to the way these guys do business and that some careers will suffer extremely negative consequences over this action.
The officers involved, as long as we're waving the Constitution around, have some rights, too. The officers who screwed up might not be the ones who executed the raid. I read one report that said the officers were looking for a wanted felon, not executing a search warrant. However, until we see the investigation, we won't know what happened and how it can be prevented in the future.
I wonder what you'd think if a truck driver pushing to meet a delivery deadline fell asleep and creamed your family.
That is not even a rational argument… And certainly has nothing what so ever to do with what was reported above…
An "accident" is unforseeable circumstance. This is gross negligance involving lethal force.
I was unaware that you are a Doctor of Jurisprudence… To find a claim of gross negligence (spelled with an “e”) you have to show some sort of injury, and that the Officers were operating outside of their scope and practice…
The incident reported above had no injuries and it occurred during the lawful service of a search warrant, therefore, there is not any merit to your claim…
My amigos don't spill there blood across the globe moping up terrorist intent on spilling Western blood, to have the Constitution run-over in the US... violence spilling into housholds in America, by negligant, ignorant, lazy turds, hiding behind badges...
I have personally been directly involved in the anti terrorism game for quite some time both domestically, and abroad, and I would be eager to hear more of your thoughts of what your amigos might think; However, in reference to this case, I can only assume that by “the Constitution being run-over” you are more specifically referring to the 4th and 14th amendments…
Again as reported above, a Magistrate issued a valid warrant upon a finding probable cause, and the warrant was lawfully served… Both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution were followed…
Was there a mistake??? Yes… Do mistakes happen??? Yes… The world of men is an imperfect place; learn to deal with it…
Some guy with a shady history, needing another fix points to a house & say's "yeah, I think that's it". And, it's good enough for a no-knock raid? Ask any DA, 99% of the time testimony from these CI's isn't reputable enough to get convictions & yet a PD executes a no-knock, with extremely high likelyhood of involving or inciting violence... .
To be used in an affidavit of a warrant, a “CI” has to be deemed reliable by the issuing magistrate; I’m not sure what you mean by “any DA”… Do I get to pick??? I know quite a few, or can I use an AUSA and go for the big leagues??? The point is we are all human beings and sometimes things happen, … Its not like one of your anonymous amigos accidentally called in an air strike on a wedding and killed the entire bridal party…
I hope somebody burns.
I hope your struck by seagull poop…
And the dust "them" off comment is just pure, indignified unprofessionalism.
Perhaps a bit of surveillance or back-up intel before heavily armed, well trained officers go in ready to kill? Too much to ask for some?
So you shouldn’t dust them off??? Well since you can’t set the way back machine to before the warrant service was executed; I think it would be nice to take the handcuffs off of them, and try to put things back more or less where they were before the entry was made, but hey, if you just want to walk away and not clean things up, that’s up to you I guess… It is not a legal necessity…
And specifically what kind of “surveillance or back-up intel” are you hoping for??? Some thermal imaging from a secret squirrel spy satellite that can see cocaine base??? Madam Cleo’s psychic friends network??? A fixed OP across the street looking for “activity” in a location that has seven or eight people living it??? A big sign on the lawn that says “Dope R US”???
I believe they made the best decisions they could, with the information that they had… Apparently a Superior Court Judge did too… But as none of us were there, all of this is simply speculation…
TUNNEL RAT 33
12-19-07, 21:28
sorry , but dust them off ? as a LEO that type of thinking is why most people hate cops . there was a gun fight in this inocent persons home where there were several children . this situation is fubar . the swat team in my experience is probably not at fault as it is usually a detective or some narcotics unit that called them in . the guy running the investigation should be sent packing and the skell who gave the hot tip should be locked up . in my experience when you get a tip you recon the target - getting all types of intel on the house doors ,windows, landscaping , dogs , lookouts , known felons residing in the target , confirmation of illegal activity ( sending in under covers) . you dont saddle up and kick the door blind , thats how people get killed and good people whether its the cops or the home owner defending his family go to jail for a long time . sounds to me that this guy has one hell of a lawsuit
the1911fan
12-19-07, 21:33
Oops...
It is an imperfect world and things happen...
That is why they call them accidents...
Dust them off, say your sorry, buy them a new door, & move on...
Just my .02
Buck
Hey Buck we could always just do the fireman thing...ya know sit around do nothing until we are called...I kinda like that idea.;)
the1911fan
12-19-07, 21:45
That is not even a rational argument… And certainly has nothing what so ever to do with what was reported above…
I was unaware that you are a Doctor of Jurisprudence… To find a claim of gross negligence (spelled with an “e”) you have to show some sort of injury, and that the Officers were operating outside of their scope and practice…
The incident reported above had no injuries and it occurred during the lawful service of a search warrant, therefore, there is not any merit to your claim…
I have personally been directly involved in the anti terrorism game for quite some time both domestically, and abroad, and I would be eager to hear more of your thoughts of what your amigos might think; However, in reference to this case, I can only assume that by “the Constitution being run-over” you are more specifically referring to the 4th and 14th amendments…
Again as reported above, a Magistrate issued a valid warrant upon a finding probable cause, and the warrant was lawfully served… Both the letter and the spirit of the Constitution were followed…
Was there a mistake??? Yes… Do mistakes happen??? Yes… The world of men is an imperfect place; learn to deal with it…
To be used in an affidavit of a warrant, a “CI” has to be deemed reliable by the issuing magistrate; I’m not sure what you mean by “any DA”… Do I get to pick??? I know quite a few, or can I use an AUSA and go for the big leagues??? The point is we are all human beings and sometimes things happen, … Its not like one of your anonymous amigos accidentally called in an air strike on a wedding and killed the entire bridal party…
I hope your struck by seagull poop…
So you shouldn’t dust them off??? Well since you can’t set the way back machine to before the warrant service was executed; I think it would be nice to take the handcuffs off of them, and try to put things back more or less where they were before the entry was made, but hey, if you just want to walk away and not clean things up, that’s up to you I guess… It is not a legal necessity…
And specifically what kind of “surveillance or back-up intel” are you hoping for??? Some thermal imaging from a secret squirrel spy satellite that can see cocaine base??? Madam Cleo’s psychic friends network??? A fixed OP across the street looking for “activity” in a location that has seven or eight people living it??? A big sign on the lawn that says “Dope R US”???
I believe they made the best decisions they could, with the information that they had… Apparently a Superior Court Judge did too… But as none of us were there, all of this is simply speculation…
Excellent post...filled with suportive information/legal procedure..instead of all the hyperbole spewed by some in this thread
I'm still trying to figure out how yelling "Police, we have a warrant" allows you to bust down someones door and go in with SWAT. This is that Grey area bullshit that has plenty of arguments on both sides of the line, but still seems to violate our constitutional rights.
I just hope families of police officers never have to be told that their husband/father/brother died because they busted down the wrong door belonging to a heavily armed law-abiding citizen while executing a "no-Knock" warrant (or a NO INTEL warrant)...that would be death in vein.
Nathan_Bell
12-19-07, 21:57
THis home owner had a shotgun and luckily only wounded the officers, so everyone gets to go home to their loved ones.
What would have happened had the homeowner had a .30 cal or larger bolt gun and DRT one of the officers? I am thinking that we would be speaking of the late home owner. If he was not shot dead, the home owner would be looking at charges even though all he did was defend his family from an attempted home invasion.
How will this help put the public's opinion of the law enforcement community? There are already a great number of people around the country that do not like or trust LEOs, these types of actions just increase this number. Is the slow and steady destruction of the public trust that our society is based upon worth a piddly little drug conviction? How can we have an operable society if the entire country views the law enforcement profession the way that blacks in LA viewed the LAPD after Rodney King?
Excellent post...filled with suportive information/legal procedure..instead of all the hyperbole spewed by some in this thread
And your comments are an excellent example of the blind loyalty and blatant arrogance spewed by too many law enforcement personnel. Supportive information/legal procedure my ***. No facts, no nothing, other than "someone screwed up, no one was hurt, what's the big deal". Of course, if it were your home, that ridiculous attitude would be gone fast. Yes people make mistakes, but LEO's must also be accountable for them just as us "dust-offables".
And of course, Buck, we all know that a drug/suspect home has never been successfully staked out unless it has a "dope r us" sign out front. Ridiculous argument.
Unprofessional, ugly arrogance.
I realize this thread has two sides LEO's and the rest of us. We can sit around and have an internet pissing contest and debate constitutional rights. This was a petty drug raid- not a Counter Terrorism Raid (kind of a big difference there). Put yourselves in the Home Owner's shoes. I don't think anything would have happened to him had he killed an officer or two. Not to sound cold, but it would not have been his fault at all. Maybe if the cops would have waited one more day to do the raid, they would have had competent surveillance of a mother putting her children on the school bus and a father going off to work...
I'm just sayin...
Excellent post...filled with suportive information/legal procedure..instead of all the hyperbole spewed by some in this thread
Oh, so you are saying that after SWAT destroys my front door and comes in my house putting my family on the ground a gun point, then tearing my house apart looking for drugs in my house that are not there, I should be understanding about the whole situation.
Maybe I should stand by the front door and give all the SWAT guys pats on the back and say "keep your chin up, you'll get 'em next time".
No Sir, I'll be ****ing seething- collecting names, badge number, and calling my lawyer who will probably spew his legal hyperbole until someone has to become a fireman.
And of course, Buck, we all know that a drug/suspect home has never been successfully staked out unless it has a "dope r us" sign out front. Ridiculous argument.
Unprofessional, ugly arrogance.
That is why they call it "probable cause" and not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt"...
The probable cause standard for the issuance is a search warrant is a honest belief, not a certainty...
This is not a discussion of tactics, as I personally am a big fan of the surround and call out, VS the dynamic entry; However, I have personally been the Affiant on dozens of search warrants based solely on the reliance of information received from a CRI, and I know of which I speak...
The world is imperfect and there are times that a "stake out" is not reasonable, and I am still not sure what kind of activity you think they should be looking for???
That being said, this is the system of laws spelled out in our Constitution, and codified in the various USC and PC statutes that our civilization is governed by... If you are unhappy with them, write your congressman and ask him to change the law, or follow Patric Henry's example, but do not try to Monday morning quarterback others with knee jerk reactions...
And the quote for the day...
"There is no nice way to arrest a potentially dangerous, combative suspect. The police are our bodyguards; our hired fists, batons and guns. We pay them to do the dirty work of protecting us. The work we're too afraid, too unskilled, or too civilized to do ourselves. we expect them to keep the bad guys out of our businesses, out of our cars, out of our houses, and out of our faces. We just don't want to see how its done." -Charles H. Webb, Ph.D.
In all of this, I am greatly relived that no one was seriously hurt, lets learn from our mistakes and move on...
In all of this, I am greatly relived that no one was seriously hurt, lets learn from our mistakes and move on...
There you go. :)
That is the dignified, professional, decent attitude one would hope all our brave men and women in law enforcement would share. Not a lot to ask from you, Buck. Thanks, though.
TUNNEL RAT 33
12-19-07, 23:08
a mistake is getting a cream donut instead of a jelly donut - in todays world the leo is not allowed any mistakes . you must be 100% at all times because people have seen rodney king, rubee ridge , oj , any every other negative incident and or have been hassled ruffed up or just plain yoked up by the police and are fed up and dont want to give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore .
NCPatrolAR
12-19-07, 23:10
It is interesting how everyone of these "botched raid" threads turn into people pissing and moaning about "no knock" warrants like they are the most commonly used type of warrant service in play today. In fact, they are pretty rare, but people seem to fail to realize this.
Anyways, I'm more interested in what kind of warrant was being served and the work-up that was done prior to the service. Everyone else feel free to continue pissing and moaning about other non-related matters.
This is just bad all the way around, bad for the home-owner, and bad for the SWAT team. Neither of the two wanted that outcome. I'm amazed it turned out as well as it did too.
People rant about how much of an agenda and bias the media has UNTIL the media does a piece on something they support, then, they put total, blind trust that whatever is printed is gospel. Folks, you can't have it both ways, the media is an entertainment business with multiple political agendas. In the past 17 years I can't recall a single media story about a call I was involved in that was ever done completely correct, and usually, it's nowhere near correct.
Wait for the investigation.
TUNNEL RAT 33
12-19-07, 23:21
well said DOC !!
variablebinary
12-20-07, 01:13
Guy is lucky he didnt have a dog.
READS TO ME LIKE THERE ARE SOME WHO WRIGHT, "LETS LEARN FROM OUR MISTAKES AND MOVE ON", THEN THEY GIVE EXCUSSES FOR THE MISTAKES AND SAY LETS MOVE ON.
I'm still trying to figure out how yelling "Police, we have a warrant" allows you to bust down someones door and go in with SWAT. This is that Grey area bullshit that has plenty of arguments on both sides of the line, but still seems to violate our constitutional rights.
Not really gray area bullshit... it is called the 4th amendment to the Constitution of the United States...
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This was a petty drug raid- not a Counter Terrorism Raid (kind of a big difference there).
Not in the eyes of the law... The law protects us all equally, regardless of our crimes, and the Constitution is very specific in this matter... The lessons of Sir Thomas More were well reflected on after the Civil War...
AMENDMENT XIV
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Oh, so you are saying that after SWAT destroys my front door and comes in my house putting my family on the ground a gun point, then tearing my house apart looking for drugs in my house that are not there, I should be understanding about the whole situation.
Maybe I should stand by the front door and give all the SWAT guys pats on the back and say "keep your chin up, you'll get 'em next time".
No Sir, I'll be ****ing seething- collecting names, badge number, and calling my lawyer who will probably spew his legal hyperbole until someone has to become a fireman.
Well thus the saying that you are sorry and the dusting off... However; by your posts is likely that you could/would sue, that the City will settle and pay you off, and you and your neighbors trash fees and property taxes would pay the settlement, and life would continue...
In the end we are all human beings, and the world is not perfect... However infrequently, accidents do happen, mistakes are made, You will never truly appreciate the freedoms you have, and the price paid for them, until you see the mess the rest of the world is in...
Just my .02
Buck
You will never truly appreciate the freedoms you have, and the price paid for them, until you see the mess the rest of the world is in...
Buck
I am currently in Iraq as an IC, and before that, a Marine in active combat operations. I've seen enough of the world to know what a shit hole it is, and appreciate the freedoms I have considering I have actually fought for them.
vicious_cb
12-20-07, 09:39
In the end we are all human beings, and the world is not perfect... However infrequently, accidents do happen, mistakes are made, You will never truly appreciate the freedoms you have, and the price paid for them, until you see the mess the rest of the world is in...
Just my .02
Buck
That just doesnt cut it after I'm dead because I either:
A: Did NOT choose to defend myself at the sound of a crashed door because I thought it was just the police making a mistaken raid on my house and it turned out to be a criminal after my life and property.
or
B: I chose to defend myself and was subsequently gunned down by SWAT officers after they mistakenly raided my house.
How will I appreciate my freedoms then?
It should be noted that one can only comment on the story from the perspective of as presented, & how this presentation mirrors ones similar personal experiences and background.
IMO the individuals aren't being crucified the mechanism & culture is.
I made no claim of having garnered a J.D., and no mention was made of making any legal "claim". In my opinion (as an individual who gets paid to implement varying levels of violence, to include lethal force, on behalf of state interest) ethically, morally, and operationally, this is gross negligence.
The "Blue line" close minded, group think, testosterone festival culture, leads to cowboy-ish actions as I suspect happened here. If more often LE officers felt free to voice: ah... is this the right thing to do? Less questionable incidents would happen.
As a whole I firmly believe LE does a good job, but the need to rigorously apply "common sense" to actions at the lowest level is essential. If actions listed alienate a person like me with a natural affinity toward LE, worked numerous times with the spectrum of agencies, how will this affect much broader public segment & the ability of LE to work effectively?
No one who knows me would accuse me of being anything but forward leaning, perpetually pushing to slay the right savages, however: I've previously been cleared hot to engage specific targets numerous times, but didn't have complete confidence in the totality of the situation to possibly slay non-players. Additionally, I can't count the times, over the last few years, ROE would have permited lethal force, but it actually wasn't appropriate to the situation.
Bottom line do the right thing; NO rule, law or ordinance, should be used to hide behind, when executing ones duties, esp. when lethal force is involved.. no replay button.
I've never terminally guided ordinance on a question mark target, but have seen numerous claims of "bombed wedding parties" with pieces of AK's, RPG's, all male bodies, etc. Wow, figure the odds...
Not familiar with the cheap shot regarding one of my supposed "amigos".. And, I see alot of AAR's. How long from ord dropped, to the claims of wrongful targeting? Were there eyes on the entire time?
IOW, "Such 'mistakes' don't become problems for us until one of our officers is killed. As long as it's just you 'civilians' dying it's 'just a fact of police work.'"
Cops that **** up on such a grand scale should go to prison. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, straight to jail. Anybody else would, regardless of profession, why shouldn't cops?
Doctors regularly cut off the wrong limbs, remove the wrong organs and leave surgical instruments inside patients. They don't go to prison for their mistakes...but the cops should. No wonder there is such an us vs. them mentality.
I'm sure the family will be well compensated (hell they just hit the lottery) and yes the officers involved should face punishment..but prison...no.
ETA: After reading the rest of the posts there is so much here that I'd like to comment on individually but would only result in my blood pressure going up and a urination contest of epic proportions.
Human beings make mistakes. Police officers are human therefore mistakes will happen. Should the officers walk away w/o any type of accountability? NO. Find the weal link in the intell gathering or target ID on the location or whatever it might have been and deal with that person or persons. Days off...hell weeks, remove him from the unit, put him in a position where he's not swearing out search warrants anymore. Prison? Not unless you can prove it was done maliciously and with intent.
No Knock warrants are fraught with risk, that's why so few of them are actually issued. Trust me, when you know the guy you are trying to arrest is armed and travels armed, you're gonna want that no knock warrant. Good luck getting the judge to issue it.
Don't tell me how cops "get away with this stuff all the time". My career was seriously damaged by a greed driven amoral lying scumbag attorney who only saw dollar signs as the result of a warrant service and shooting (which was deemed justified by the State Police, Attorney Generals office and the Justice Department who refused to do any further investigation on after reviewing the reports). I'm the warning to all the guys that do follow the rules and don't fight the administration, as I still got staked out as the sacrificial goat so don't tell me how "the cops always get away with it". I followed the rules and still got shit on because the other side put on a better show and (believe it or not) the jury thought it wasn't "fair" because I had a bigger gun then the guy who shot at me first...go figure.
People who are not in Law Enforcement have no idea of the hurdles we have to run every day to try and keep them safe. All they see is what the media and scumbag lawyers portray us as.
I am currently in Iraq as an IC, and before that, a Marine in active combat operations. I've seen enough of the world to know what a shit hole it is, and appreciate the freedoms I have considering I have actually fought for them.
Well at least we have that in common... ;-)
Semper Fi...
Doctors regularly cut off the wrong limbs, remove the wrong organs and leave surgical instruments inside patients. They don't go to prison for their mistakes...but the cops should. No wonder there is such an us vs. them mentality.
I'm sure the family will be well compensated (hell they just hit the lottery) and yes the officers involved should face punishment..but prison...no.
You are correct. For what it's worth, I also would not say that the entry team should be jailed, unless they were shown to have done something criminal or incredibly negligent. If they were following orders and had no direct part in the investigation leading to the raid, then who's orders were they following? Why were those orders not better founded? Judge the guilty according to what their responsibility level was.
I look at it this way, this is a family with children in the home. Simple surveillance should have shown that. Maybe there was a pressing need to get in the suspect home right away before some evidence might disappear, but that is when one must use the most caution. Still again, maybe it was a simple clerical error. Just FUBAR any way you look at it, and someone somewhere screwed up bad.
the1911fan
12-20-07, 11:20
Minneapolis police apologize for raid that led to gunfire
By DAVID CHANEN, Star Tribune
Last update: December 18, 2007 - 12:52 AM
Sunday's high-risk search by Minneapolis police of a house on the city's North Side was to be one of the last pieces in a long-term investigation focused on violent gang members.
But minutes after a SWAT team entered the house about 12:30 a.m., things went awry. The homeowner, a father of six, thinking the intruders were burglars, fired at them through a bedroom wall. He hit two officers, one in the back and one in the head, but both were uninjured because they were wearing protective armor. Police shot back, but did not hit him.
Hours later, police officials were apologizing to the homeowner, Vang Khang, admitting that they had erred based on bad information from an informant.
That informant was the alleged victim of a violent crime at a house, which is in the 1300 block of Logan Avenue N.
Police said they had no reason to believe the information was inaccurate. They had the right address on the warrant, but the house wasn't occupied by anybody they wanted.
The case will be reviewed by the Hennepin County attorney's office, but authorities said it's doubtful that Khang will be charged with any crime.
"We've apologized to the family, and the city is making every effort to repair any damages to his home as quickly as possible," said Lt. Amelia Huffman, head of the homicide unit.
Huffman's unit, as well as the internal affairs unit, also will review the case.
Gang members sought
The search warrant police were working with was part of an investigation by the department's Violent Offender Task Force, which typically goes after the most violent gang members and drug dealers. In the past two years, the investigation has dismantled at least three violent gangs, with several suspects arrested and many weapons seized.
The warrant was typical for this kind of investigation, Huffman said. It was designated high-risk and "no knock" because officers expected to find weapons, which is why a SWAT team was involved.
When police entered, the officers called out, "Police!" as they searched the home's first floor. They didn't find anybody, so went to the second floor. At a small landing at the top of the stairs, they again shouted, "Police!" Huffman said.
Shots came through the walls and doors as officers searched two bedrooms, police said. It was Khang, 34, shooting from a third bedroom.
There were children in the other bedrooms, and the officers quickly realized there was a language barrier. The older children were able to communicate to their father that police were in the house and to stop shooting, Huffman said.
All six of the family's children, who range in age from 3 to 15, were home at the time.
Khang's wife, Yee Moua, said she was watching TV on the first floor when she heard voices and windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.
Khang said he grabbed a gun from a closet and fired three shots. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.
"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said.
After police interviewed Khang's family, it became clear they had no connection to the case, Huffman said. But the address listed on the warrant was the one police had gotten from the informant.
"This house was part of a package of very credible information that resulted in other successful enforcement actions," she said. "This was the end of a chain of things, and there was no reason to question the credibility of the information."
All relieved no one was hurt
On Monday, officers involved in the shootout were on paid administrative leave, standard in such cases.
Meanwhile, the Khangs' back door and several windows were boarded up.
Ron Edwards, co-chairman of the Police Community Relations Council, questioned what police do when informants pass on bad information.
"It wasn't a very pleasant situation up there," he said. "I'm glad police had all that protective armor on. With so many children inside, it was lucky nobody was injured."
The Associated Press contributed to this report. David Chanen • 612-673-4465
HolyRoller
12-20-07, 11:39
Well I am a Juris Doctor (JD), although there is some difference depending on who(m?) you ask as to whether JD really stands for Doctor of Jurispridence or whether that term should be reserved for the JSD aka Doctor of Juridicial Science, the highest degree conferred in law, which only a very few JDs have earned. I occasionally write a blog on Fourth Amendment law and I read most published U.S. Court of Appeals search and seizure cases. I'm also a rookie part time (hopefully full time soon) LEO, and my AO is pretty quiet and we don't see nearly the mess of a big city, but stuff does happen now and then.
Search and seizure law shouldn't be as complicated as it sometimes is. Courts say all the time that the key word in the Fourth Amendment is "unreasonable," and reasonability is the go-to principle. The Constitution allows LEOs to make good faith reasonable mistakes, and they do happen all the time, without getting their evidence thrown out or themselves successfully sued. The Supreme Court ruled in the Hudson opinion http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/05pdf/04-1360.pdf that violation of the knock-and-announce rule is not grounds for suppression of evidence. Knock and announce has at least three benefits--allowing the resident to open the door instead of having it breached, preservation of basic dignity such as a chance to get dressed, and much less possibility of "violence in self-defense by the surprised resident." Every now and then the Supremes say something sensible. However, since unconsitutional no-knock searches don't uncover any more evidence than otherwise, and it's very hard to judge in hindsight what a reasonable time to wait before breaching, evidence can't be thrown out on grounds of illegal no-knock searching.
But the opinion expressly left open civil suits against officers who unreasonably don't knock. I don' t know nearly enough about the facts to guess whether the officers' actions were reasonable mistakes, but my very good guess as to the outcome is a six or seven-figure settlement to the homeowners.
In my opinion, the "dust ourselves off, buy a new door, move on" attitude is a no-go. Where I live, LEOs do not see ourselves as a breed apart, especially those of us who work for elected sheriffs in small counties. We're just regular folks who happen to have 600 hours of basic training and no major background problems.
Bottom line do the right thing; NO rule, law or ordinance, should be used to hide behind, when executing ones duties, esp. when lethal force is involved.. no replay button.
I do not think anyone here is trying to hide behind "the laws"or a badge, thats why I am here discussing this topic, and I am a big believer of "common sense" on the lowest possible level...
I have no first hand knowledge of the events that led to this but just from what was reported... They received information that at the time they believed to be reliable, they acted correctly upon the information, and the information was wrong...
Remember, although these things do not happen often, they do happen... Space shuttles blow up, planes fall from the sky, submarines sink, cars crash, stuff catches on fire, it happens... Demanding someones head on a spike every time they do, regardless of the reasons behind incident, is unreasonable.
If you find yourself in the City of Angeles, drop me a line, We can go shooting and then have a few beers and talk about cars, guns, & girls... (not necessarily in that order)...
Buck
Submariner
12-20-07, 12:03
I was unaware that you are a Doctor of Jurisprudence… To find a claim of gross negligence (spelled with an “e”) you have to show some sort of injury, and that the Officers were operating outside of their scope and practice…
The incident reported above had no injuries and it occurred during the lawful service of a search warrant, therefore, there is not any merit to your claim…
Gee, I seem to remember something in Torts for Tots regarding negligent infliction of emotional distress. Negligible damages? I'll bet there are expert witnesses who can put a dollar figure on the psychological scarring of the husband, wife and children.
If they find a skilled personal injury attorney, I'm reasonably certain he/she will find a theory or two under which they can sue. Then will those responsible want a jury trial or to settle?
Sad...
Negligence: Duty; Breach of that Duty; Breach of which is the Proximate Cause of Damages; and Damages can be measured in dollars.
Well at least we have that in common... ;-)
Semper Fi...
It's a small world.
Semper Fi Bro :D
In a case like what happened to this Indiana woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyAvLFE0oo), I would make it a point to find out where every officer that raided my home lives, Then I would break into their homes, armed, and tear all their shit out and throw it on the floor, then when finnished, I would tell them this is your mess..... You clean it up..
What would they do, arrest me? They would get laughed out of court.. There is no way in this Country even as a Police Officer you could think it would be okay to break into someones home, trash it, and walk away thinking it would just be forgoten about..
Payback is a bitch..
What would they do, arrest me? They would get laughed out of court..
Payback is a bitch..
To answer your question, absolutely yes. And no, they would not get laughed out of court. Yes, payback would be a bitch, but especially so in your case.
To answer your question, absolutely yes. And no, they would not get laughed out of court. Yes, payback would be a bitch, but especially so in your case.
OH I TOTALY FORGOT..
The double standard, it's okay to break into people's homes and terrorize them, and their families if you carry a badge, it's called..
Their Job.
But if you don't carry a badge, it's called something else, correct me if I'm worng here but I believe if you break into a house and Terrorize people and their families without a badge it's called..
Criminal.
-----------------------------------
But what about the police doing "Their Job" to people like this Indiana woman that doesn't at all deserve it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyAvLFE0oo
Does it make it all okay because Hey, their Police Officers, they were just doing their jobs" does that make it all okay and acceptable to bust into her home, trash it, and her property, and leave it for her to clean up, when she never deserved it to start with?
If so why wouldn't it be acceptale for her to go break into their homes and trash their property?
I think it would be totaly fair, and justified for her to give a little back to the Law Enforcement community that did so much for her.. After all, they have it coming..
If the cops busted into my home, half of them would have left in body bags.. I don't play the stupid shit.. If I have it coming fine, if you screw up and kick my door in by mistake, you will find out all too quick just what a very bad mistake it was..
I work damn hard to make an honest living, I don't drink or smoke, dope will never be tolerated, there are laws of this land, and rules under this roof, no kind of law enforcement would ever have reason to kick any of my doors in, so that being the case, it best never happen.
Patrick Aherne
12-20-07, 14:19
hgary2003,
Why don't we just agree to stick with the topic of discussion instead of your rants about some other case?
From looking at other stories about this incident, it looks like the coppers well and truly screwed the pooch and hit a completely uninvolved residence. The Chief has apologised to the family, publically, and the PD is paying to fix the damage.
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1107/474003.html
This really ticks me off as well, here is where some County Deputies went on a raid at a home of two people that were just trying to enjoy a quite night at home watching t.v. and their dog get's shot because it was barking at the Deputies.
I'm sorry but I would have to give them a reason to lock me up after something like that, I might go to jail, but if you shoot my dog, I will shoot you!
hgary2003,
Why don't we just agree to stick with the topic of discussion instead of your rants about some other case?
From looking at other stories about this incident, it looks like the coppers well and truly screwed the pooch and hit a completely uninvolved residence. The Chief has apologised to the family, publically, and the PD is paying to fix the damage.
Sorry man, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that this does happen way to often, I have nothing at all against cops, I have a few good friends that are Local Police Officers, what I do have a problem with is the standard that some Police can do what ever they want to, if they make a mistake and someone innocent gets hurt, then so what, mistakes happen.
I don't think it should be that way.. I'm accountable to my actions, everything I do, if I'm driving into town and hit a jogger or a kid on a bike because I'm not paying attention, then for that I must be accountable, I can't just write it off as a fluke and expect it to be forgotton about..
Most cases I've read or heard about concerning police making bad choices, or bad mistakes that have led to people getting hurt or people having property damage done that didn't deserve it, in most cases the Police will admit they made a mistake, but that's pretty much it, there never has been a whole lot of effort put into fixing their mistakes, they never accept the accountability of their actions, they just move on and expect everyone to just forget it, and move on as well.
And that is wrong.
OH I TOTALY FORGOT...The double standard...
I do not advocate that double standard, not at all. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I was critical of the fact that some police are relieved of both responsibility and guilt when these things happen. Still, your reaction would be an overreaction and would ruin your life (if you survived the raid, of course).
I do not advocate that double standard, not at all. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I was critical of the fact that some police are relieved of both responsibility and guilt when these things happen. Still, your reaction would be an overreaction and would ruin your life (if you survived the raid, of course).
What do you mean by that?
If the Police Kicks in your door, assults you, your wife, or whoever else might be inside the home, shoots your dog, goes directly into desroying your home, you are telling me you will not fight back?
I personaly would give them a reason to arrest me, as I noted it would be their first mistake to kick in the door of a Law abiding American like myself, but it would be one mistake they would never EVER forget..
It should be noted that one can only comment on the story from the perspective of as presented, & how this presentation mirrors ones similar personal experiences and background.
IMO the individuals aren't being crucified the mechanism & culture is.
I made no claim of having garnered a J.D., and no mention was made of making any legal "claim". In my opinion (as an individual who gets paid to implement varying levels of violence, to include lethal force, on behalf of state interest) ethically, morally, and operationally, this is gross negligence.
The "Blue line" close minded, group think, testosterone festival culture, leads to cowboy-ish actions as I suspect happened here. If more often LE officers felt free to voice: ah... is this the right thing to do? Less questionable incidents would happen.
As a whole I firmly believe LE does a good job, but the need to rigorously apply "common sense" to actions at the lowest level is essential. If actions listed alienate a person like me with a natural affinity toward LE, worked numerous times with the spectrum of agencies, how will this affect much broader public segment & the ability of LE to work effectively?
No one who knows me would accuse me of being anything but forward leaning, perpetually pushing to slay the right savages, however: I've previously been cleared hot to engage specific targets numerous times, but didn't have complete confidence in the totality of the situation to possibly slay non-players. Additionally, I can't count the times, over the last few years, ROE would have permited lethal force, but it actually wasn't appropriate to the situation.
Bottom line do the right thing; NO rule, law or ordinance, should be used to hide behind, when executing ones duties, esp. when lethal force is involved.. no replay button.
I've never terminally guided ordinance on a question mark target, but have seen numerous claims of "bombed wedding parties" with pieces of AK's, RPG's, all male bodies, etc. Wow, figure the odds...
Not familiar with the cheap shot regarding one of my supposed "amigos".. And, I see alot of AAR's. How long from ord dropped, to the claims of wrongful targeting? Were there eyes on the entire time?
The message above was so good I decided to quote it so everyone could read it again. :D
Doctors regularly cut off the wrong limbs, remove the wrong organs and leave surgical instruments inside patients. They don't go to prison for their mistakes...but the cops should. No wonder there is such an us vs. them mentality.
Are you sure none of them have gone to prison? The example you cite are unforgiveable mistakes (i.e. negligence) and in some of those cases I think prison would be appropriate. And even if the doctor has "bad intel," the one holding the knife (or syringe) is the one who is ultimately responsible for what happens.
In any case, your analogy is weak. A far more comparable situation would be if a doctor broke into your house and tried (or completed) a surgical procedure on you that you didn't need and didn't request. It may sound absurd, but it's the only way to link your example to this topic.
What do you mean by that?
I was refering to your earlier statement about you hunting each officer down who participated and invading their homes armed. :rolleyes:
If police raided my home, I would do my best to verify who they before I shot at anyone. However, if for whatever reason they decided to attack me blindly, then rather than die I would surely fight back.
That said, you sound like you could use a good therapist, or maybe a beer...
I was refering to your earlier statement about you hunting each officer down who participated and invading their homes armed. :rolleyes:
If police raided my home, I would do my best to verify who they before I shot at anyone. However, if for whatever reason they decided to attack me blindly, then rather than die I would surely fight back.
That said, you sound like you could use a good therapist, or maybe a beer...
Okay.. I copy.. Let me get your opinion on this though..
Why is it okay for them to kick your door in, kill your dog, go through your personal property, and wreck your house..
Yet if you do it to them, you would be considered as a dangerous criminal?
Does this not sound kind of one sided to you.. I could see doing this to a criminal, or even doing it at a dope house.. But I'm not a criminal, and there isn't ever going to be any kind of illegal dope here, for any reason..
Very Simple Question : Why would it be okay if the Police raided this home, but it would be illegal for me to raid theirs?
Very Simple Question : Why would it be okay if the Police raided this home, but it would be illegal for me to raid theirs?
If you do not know the answer to that question, then I really don't think I can help you. I'll just say that no one ever said it was OK for the police to raid your home without a very good reason, especially me. I'm fairly sure the rest is self explanatory to anyone over 12. Sorry.
If you do not know the answer to that question, then I really don't think I can help you. I'll just say that no one ever said it was OK for the police to raid your home without a very good reason, especially me. I'm fairly sure the rest is self explanatory to anyone over 12. Sorry.
For whatever reason, you still aren't getting what I'm saying, the Police don't really have to have a good reason to kick your door in and assult you and your family, they can do it anytime they so choose.. And when they finnish you best best just get over it and forget it ever happened.
Their Police Officers.. And their only doing their Job.. End of story..
There is in fact a double standard in place in this Country, I can't do shit like that for the very clear reason being that it is illegal, and if I were to kick someones door in and enter their home, I would become a criminal by my own actions of burglary.. Now just because I can't do that doesn't mean the Police can't, because they are the Police, they can bust your door down and claim they had a good tip that you were cooking meth.. And there is NOTHING you can do about it but smile accept what ever they tell you, and if you owned a dog, then you can go get yourself another one, because there would be a pretty damn good chance your current dog is dead.
Nothing personal.. Just Police Business.. It happens every day..
Check this out -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOHJfY2hQ2c
Welcome To America..
Are you sure none of them have gone to prison? The example you cite are unforgiveable mistakes (i.e. negligence) and in some of those cases I think prison would be appropriate. And even if the doctor has "bad intel," the one holding the knife (or syringe) is the one who is ultimately responsible for what happens.
In any case, your analogy is weak. A far more comparable situation would be if a doctor broke into your house and tried (or completed) a surgical procedure on you that you didn't need and didn't request. It may sound absurd, but it's the only way to link your example to this topic.
I have NEVER heard of a physician going to PRISON for making an error in the operating room. I'm pretty sure that would make national news.
My analogy in on the mark. A mistake is made and people suffer as a result. Your point of view is slanted and nothing I say or argument I make will change that.
After twenty years there are days were I wonder if people are really worth the effort anymore. These types of arguments don't help. Law Enforcement is held to a higher degree of accountability then you can imagine. Everybody knows how to do our job better then we do, but suprisingly enough I don't see any of those who have no problem demonizing us standing next to me when I'm doing my job. Again...it just reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality that people seem to love to bandy about.
Wow! I'm still new here and trying to figure out the feel of this particular forum, but this thread sure makes me wonder if I'm in the wrong place.
Did anybody ever stop to think that the reason things like this are big news is because they just don't happen that often? And contrary to what some of you think, when mistakes of this magnitude happen there is punishment for those responsible.
HGary2003,
You have absolutely no clue about the things you are ranting about. There is a big double standard for cops. We are held to a much higher standard. We have to put up with people like you complaining on us if we drive too fast, look at you wrong, speak to you in a way you don't like. We get sued when we hit BACK or shoot BACK. Whatever, I better shut up before you find my house and trash it.
Wow! I'm still new here and trying to figure out the feel of this particular forum, but this thread sure makes me wonder if I'm in the wrong place.
Did anybody ever stop to think that the reason things like this are big news is because they just don't happen that often? And contrary to what some of you think, when mistakes of this magnitude happen there is punishment for those responsible.
HGary2003,
You have absolutely no clue about the things you are ranting about. There is a big double standard for cops. We are held to a much higher standard. We have to put up with people like you complaining on us if we drive too fast, look at you wrong, speak to you in a way you don't like. We get sued when we hit BACK or shoot BACK. Whatever, I better shut up before you find my house and trash it.
Come off that man, as I noted I have some friends of mine that are Police Officers, but these are a couple of dudes that if they were involved in something like a search warrant and they busted down the wrong door, they would do the right thing and fix their mistake, and not tell the homeowner the busted door is not their problem.. And walk away trying to pull off an act of "I did nothing wrong.."
I have no problem with Cops.. I do have a problem with ANYONE that doesn't have a certain degree of respect for their fellow man, now when I say respect for their fellow man, I'm only talking only about the people that deserve such respect, I'm not talking about criminals, as far as I'm concerned criminals don't deserve any respect of any kind.. After all their criminals..
But honest hard working citizens such as myself, and many others that just work an honest 40 + each week to support our families and put food on the table, for people like me to be treated as a criminal just beause a Police Officer made a "mistake" that is crazy.. I would never kick anyones door in by mistake.. I'll be totaly honest about it, I would be scared to death that there could be someone on the other side of that door "Like me" that would blow my head off..
Patrick Aherne
12-20-07, 22:57
Most cases I've read or heard about concerning police making bad choices, or bad mistakes that have led to people getting hurt or people having property damage done that didn't deserve it, in most cases the Police will admit they made a mistake, but that's pretty much it, there never has been a whole lot of effort put into fixing their mistakes, they never accept the accountability of their actions, they just move on and expect everyone to just forget it, and move on as well.
And that is wrong.
On my planet, the sky is blue. I have no idea about your frame of reference or what planet you live on.
In these United States, when an officer or department violates an honest citizen's rights, there are stampedes of ambulance chasers that quickly try to get the case to federal court. Most times, when there isn't even any violation of rights, they still sue and try to get the case into federal court. Like the Neo-nazi who tried to sue me for 1.25 million bucks because I was racist against whites. Figure that one out.
There are something like 750,000 law enforcement officers in this country. Many of them have numerous citizen contacts per day, yet still, use of force incidents are rare. Even more rare, is the misuse of force. When this happens there are usually severe consequences, to include termination and probably prosecution in local courts.
Police make mistakes, we're human. However, your statement that there are never consequences or accountability is unadulterated bullshit.
As I understand that story, the PD was taking responsibility and fixing the people's house and apologized. In this case, that is really all they can do for the family. They certainly do have to conduct and investigation into why this happened and hopefully learn lessons to keep it from happening again.
The problem I have with your posts is that it seems like you think hitting the wrong house is an everyday occurence and that nobody faces any consequences for it. That's just not the case.
If I was on that team and nobody else went after the people that wrote up that warrant, then I would do it myself. Nobody wants to kick in the wrong door.
My personal and professional opinion is that there really is no excuse for hitting the wrong house, just like there's no excuse for negligent discharges. They both still happen.
Patrick,
I got sued for 5.5 mil for false arrest by a guy I didn't even arrest! I wrote him a citation for shoplifting. If people only knew.
Okay now I don't know of every single case that happens where as the wrong home get's hit, but here is one that just recently happened in Indiana where the Local Police raided and turned a home upside down, and after it was over all they had to say to the their victim is "It's your mess ~ You clean it up."
Don't take my word for it... Look for yourself..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyAvLFE0oo
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39de88ad6893.htm
AP Top News
Cops Kill Man, Raid Wrong House
by VICKI BROWN
Associated Press Writer
LEBANON, Tenn. (AP) -- A 61-year-old man was shot to death by police
while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug raid on the
wrong house.
Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug
informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night.
They intended to raid the home next door.
The two officers, 25-year-old Kyle Shedran and 24-year-old Greg Day,
were placed on administrative leave with pay.
''They need to get rid of those men, boys with toys,'' said Adams'
70-year-old widow, Loraine.
John Adams was watching television when his wife heard pounding on
the door. Police claim they identified themselves and wore police jackets.
Loraine Adams said she had no indication the men were police.
''I thought it was a home invasion. I said 'Baby, get your gun!,'' she said,
sitting amid friends and relatives gathered at her home to cook and
prepare for Sunday's funeral.
Police say her husband fired first with a sawed-off shotgun and they
responded. He was shot at least three times and died later at Vanderbilt
University Medical Center in Nashville.
Loraine Adams said she was handcuffed and thrown to her knees in
another room when the shooting began.
''I said, 'Y'all have got the wrong person, you've got the wrong place.
What are you looking for?'''
''We did the best surveillance we could do, and a mistake was made,''
Lebanon Police Chief Billy Weeks said. ''It's a very severe mistake, a
costly mistake. It makes us look at our own policies and procedures to
make sure this never occurs again.'' He said, however, the two policemen
were not at fault.
The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is investigating. NAACP officials
said they are monitoring the case. Adams was black. The two policemen
are white.
Family members did not consider race a factor and Weeks agreed, but
said the shooting will be ''a major setback'' for police relations with the
black community.
''We know that, we hope to do everything we can to heal it,'' Weeks said.
Johnny Crudup, a local NAACP official, said the organization wanted to
make sure and would investigate on its own.
Weeks said he has turned the search warrant and all other evidence over
to the bureau of investigation and District Attorney General Tommy
Thompson. A command officer must now review all search warrants.
vicious_cb
12-20-07, 23:56
I'm noticing this US vs THEM mentality going on here. All the cops on this forum generally contend that mistakes do happen, fix mistakes, train harder and hope its doesnt happen again. With non-LE thinking that once is one time to many.
In a case like what happened to this Indiana woman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyAvLFE0oo), I would make it a point to find out where every officer that raided my home lives, Then I would break into their homes, armed, and tear all their shit out and throw it on the floor, then when finnished, I would tell them this is your mess..... You clean it up..
What would they do, arrest me? They would get laughed out of court.. There is no way in this Country even as a Police Officer you could think it would be okay to break into someones home, trash it, and walk away thinking it would just be forgoten about..
Payback is a bitch..
Your kidding, right?
You need to relax. Take a Valiuum. Theyr're in the bottle next to your tinfoil hat.
Yes you would be arrested.
No, no laughing. Color of law and all that. Valid warrant, signed by a judge. hell, you dont care. Just stay the way you are, angry.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 07:49
I honestly do not think that there is a "good" excuse for raiding the wrong house. When this kind of crap does happen someone somewhere dropped the ball and that someone needs to be punished the same as a non-leo would be for neglect. Why would someone take an "informant's" word on something without checking and then double checking? I do not know the details of this case but from the "mistake" (neglect IMO) alone someone needs to get their act together.
Seems to me that if YOU are a PROFESHIONAL that would mean YOU KNOW what your job is and you know how to do it correctly, and safely.
No job is too important that you cannot take the time for safety first.
Unfortunately for LE, THEY WILL ALWAY'S have the PUBLIC looking at their EVERY move, and thus might want to hold themselves to a higher standard of PROFESHIONALISIM than normal. Sure that sucks, but these things are going to go with the job, just like what goes with ALL our jobs/professions.
Now lets quit beating this to death and move on. NEXT.
I realize this thread has two sides LEO's and the rest of us. We can sit around and have an internet pissing contest and debate constitutional rights. This was a petty drug raid- not a Counter Terrorism Raid (kind of a big difference there). Put yourselves in the Home Owner's shoes. I don't think anything would have happened to him had he killed an officer or two. Not to sound cold, but it would not have been his fault at all. Maybe if the cops would have waited one more day to do the raid, they would have had competent surveillance of a mother putting her children on the school bus and a father going off to work...
I'm just sayin...
This sums it up pretty well. There is no need for personal attacks as some have done instead of debate, so I'm closing the thread.
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