View Full Version : Back to basics... suggestions
hey all,
So I've come to the conclusion lately that instead of being a marketers dream lately in the gun world, I want to go back to basics. I want to learn to shoot way better than I do now, and tighten my groups up and shoot longer distance. I'm looking for a good, reliable, accurate 9mm to help me get there. This will be primarily used as a range and training tool, as well as HD and POSSIBLY CCW. Any suggestions on the perfect gun for this? I was thinking G17, G19 or M&P 9FS as I love the striker designs for less perceived muzzle flips and getting a high grip.
My vote goes to the M&P9. Add an Apex DCAEK kit, night sights of your choice and spend the rest on mags and ammo.
Guinnessman
02-06-12, 09:01
For HD, CCW, and training I prefer the Glock 19. My G19 is an early 2010 model and it runs like a top! If you search the board you will see lots of good information regarding the issues with the newer Gen 3 and 4 Glocks. I have a Gen 4 G17 that was made in the summer of 2010, and after a trip back to Glock for the new ejector and RSA, it has been fine.
This week I will be picking up a new production (Nov 2011) Glock 19. We will see how it runs soon.
Thanks guys. I think the real question is which of those 3 prove to shoot the most accurate and support good training. The funny thing is, I've owned the 19 and mp9 in the past, and I always come back to the 19 for some reason. Would the 17 or FS9 promote better shooting and accuracy since its full size?
You need to go with what is comfortable for you to shoot.
The Glock, M&P, XD(m), series are all good and proven. There are features and advantages to each so the answer to your question is my first sentence in this post.
If CCW is only a distant maybe, go with a 5" model of the above guns. If CCW becomes more probable, I'd recommend the 4". A 4" with a match Bar-Sto barrel may be more accurate than a factory 5"...
Happy shooting.
Ok, so by no means do I wanna start a flame war or anything but if you HAD to choose one or the other for accuracy, would it be the M&P or the glock? I only ask because I read a few bad accuracy threads on some M&P9s....
Psalms144.1
02-06-12, 10:02
ejewels - if you get a properly working G19, it simply can't be beat for reliability, size efficiency, and shootability. I think the Glock family is a safer bet for more consistent accuracy at farther distances than the M&P.
Regards,
Kevin
ejewls didn't you post not to long ago with questions about a Hk45c and eventually got one. Why the switch ?
You mentioned you liked SFA guns. You mentioned you keep coming back to a g19. It seems to me you already have your answer. Why don't you stick to one platform and focus on that one platform and forget other pistols. I would sell the hk45c and get two older g19s. A g19 is plenty accurate for what you are wanting it for.
Ya, I keep going back and forth. I love the HK45c and will be keeping it. I think the G19 is the best choice. thanks guys...
I would sell the hk45c and get two older g19s. A g19 is plenty accurate for what you are wanting it for.
Lol. Get a glock 19, sure, but why would he sell possibly the best modern handgun in existence for two G19's?? Does he really need two identical guns, especially when he's already got a superior firearm? The accuracy and ergonomics of the HK45 are remarkable. I say keep the HK45 and get a Glock 19 to compliment it.
Without knowing the basics, you cannot say which gun will be more accurate for YOU.
The mechanics of the M&P cause me to group to the LEFT of my intended point of aim.
I shoot my Glocks dead center.
Can i shoot the same size groups with both guns? Yes but i would much rather choose the gun i shoot dead center.
No one can tell you which gun is more accurate for you. Even statistical samples of group sizes on paper mean nothing if you cannot physically manipulate the firearm.
Unfortunately, this is going to come down to you shooting each of these pistols that you are interested in...A LOT and then picking whichever one you find you shoot and manipulate better.
jmlshooter
02-06-12, 12:23
I'm not seeing the advantages of an 8-round, .45 ACP over the Glock 19. If I did, I would probably carry a 1911, not an HK45C.
The grip is very short and very slick. You pretty much have to get it stippled 360 degrees. Why they would design this neat, little gun and provide no real grip surface on the lateral portions is hard to understand. The surface on the USP is perfect.
I think i'll be getting a new g19 to compliment the HK45c. Its also cheaper to shoot and is easier to shoot well and get my basics stronger.
Why not get a hk p30 dimensionally the same as a glock 19 but with a full size grip, and more importantly it has the same manual of arms as the hk 45c , and it is extremely accurate. Just another thought to add.:)
I recommend shooting a DA/SA gun if you are trying to master the fundamentals. Mastering the DA pull will pay dividends on any other handgun you shoot since it forces you to be smooth and consistent with your trigger pull.
I feel that striker fire guns like the Glock and SA guns like the 1911 really mask poor trigger control IMO
Lol. Get a glock 19, sure, but why would he sell possibly the best modern handgun in existence for two G19's?? Does he really need two identical guns, especially when he's already got a superior firearm? The accuracy and ergonomics of the HK45 are remarkable. I say keep the HK45 and get a Glock 19 to compliment it.
I have owned both of the guns you are referencing too and currently carry a p30 LEM. "Best" is subjective to the individual. It depends what features a certain individual wants or needs. Hk's are great quality firearms but there are other platforms that get the job done as well. As many other well qualified people have recommended a older g19 is a good all around defensive gun especially for someone who does not know really what they want in a gun which is evident from the OP 's thread asking about what pistol he should get.
Does he need two guns? No
Is it wise to have a identical backup of your carry gun? Yes
Let's just say gun(x) has a issue or breakage and the gun is down or it has to be sent to the factory for repair...now what? Just go with out a gun for next few weeks?
Seriously the benifits of having two or more identical pistols that are for defensive or duty use has been discussed many times before.
Back to basics? 9mm?
Do you plan on using it to save your life from the depredations of nasty armed thugs?
There's only one: the cock and lock Browning Hi-Power 9mm.
That's the one to have with you when the fight starts.
F-Trooper05
02-06-12, 14:34
Back to basics? 9mm?
Do you plan on using it to save your life from the depredations of nasty armed thugs?
There's only one: the cock and lock Browning Hi-Power 9mm.
That's the one to have with you when the fight starts.
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're kidding...
Pick a platform and master it.
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're kidding...
2nd this
Hey Guys, I have a Gen 4 G19 that has shot great for me in the past. Is there any reason you guys are saying get an older one?
Lots of good advice so far, but I'd also recommend a 22 Ruger and a load of ammo. You can really master fundamentals cheaply that way.
Okie John
Hey Guys, I have a Gen 4 G19 that has shot great for me in the past. Is there any reason you guys are saying get an older one?
please read the other threads on this forum
hey all,
So I've come to the conclusion lately that instead of being a marketers dream lately in the gun world, I want to go back to basics. I want to learn to shoot way better than I do now, and tighten my groups up and shoot longer distance. I'm looking for a good, reliable, accurate 9mm to help me get there. This will be primarily used as a range and training tool, as well as HD and POSSIBLY CCW. Any suggestions on the perfect gun for this? I was thinking G17, G19 or M&P 9FS as I love the striker designs for less perceived muzzle flips and getting a high grip.
I believe this is the answer to what you are looking for.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1221076#post1221076
Hard to beat Glock. Either 17 or 19.
Ok so I guess the glock is pretty damn accurate enough ;)
So I did a quick search and found a few people with gen 4 19 issues, however mine has tons of rounds and never an issue. Am I missing something?
ejewels,
What is your recoil spring marked?
F-Trooper05
02-06-12, 16:07
Ok so I guess the glock is pretty damn accurate enough ;)
So I did a quick search and found a few people with gen 4 19 issues, however mine has tons of rounds and never an issue. Am I missing something?
Not sure what "tons" is, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that if yours had issues, you'd know by now.
0-4-3, November 27 2011 casing collection date
And now look in the thread that deals with Glock 9mm generation 4 problems to see if you need to change it out. If you do, call Glock and they'll mail you a new one for free.
I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're kidding...
I can assure y'all that I'm quite serious. Say what you will about the wonder gun of the month; when the fight starts on the mean streets of the big city, and a 9mm is the only thing between me and the medical examiner's knife, make mine a BHP.
There are many fine reliable choices for hardware. GLOCK is the easiest choice. But hardware isnt the issue.
I only skimmed the thread , but if it it hasn't been said yet.
Invest in quality training from a reputable instructor.
Deciding to buy a Hk P30, G17 , G19, M&P9, Walther PPQ, or any other handgun that is modern and reliable may be the hot topic on the internet, but it is a secondary concern at best, and only a concern because you need the gun to do the shooting. But the action, the shooting, is the key part.
I can assure y'all that I'm quite serious. Say what you will about the wonder gun of the month; when the fight starts on the mean streets of the big city, and a 9mm is the only thing between me and the medical examiner's knife, make mine a BHP.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Good for you although a bit dramatic. Enjoy your Hi-Power.
There are many fine reliable choices for hardware. GLOCK is the easiest choice. But hardware isnt the issue.
I only skimmed the thread , but if it it hasn't been said yet.
Invest in quality training from a reputable instructor.
Deciding to buy a Hk P30, G17 , G19, M&P9, Walther P99, or any other handgun that is modern and reliable may be the hot topic on the internet, but it is a secondary concern at best, and only a concern because you need the gun to do the shooting. But the action, the shooting, is the key part.
Well said sir..
if I could afford training, I would. I've been shooting probably once, twice a week for 2 years so I'm pretty decent. I just found myself falling victim to having the new toy rather than focusing on skill.
Is my glock credentials "safe" from having those issues? Its a nov. 2011 build date with a 0 4 3 spring... seems to run fine for me...
You have a G19 and a HK45c. Both are fantastic. Pick one. Buy mags and ammo and gear for it. Simple gear. Take a class. Bullshit you can't afford a class. Your mind changes on this forum every week. If you can afford a bunch of new platforms, you can refrain from buying new guns and take a class instead.
F-Trooper05
02-06-12, 21:39
Listen to what newyork said, bro. In your OP you said this...
I want to learn to shoot way better than I do now, and tighten my groups up and shoot longer distance.
You aint gonna get that without professional training. Bottom line.
if I could afford training, I would. I've been shooting probably once, twice a week for 2 years so I'm pretty decent. I just found myself falling victim to having the new toy rather than focusing on skill.
Is my glock credentials "safe" from having those issues? Its a nov. 2011 build date with a 0 4 3 spring... seems to run fine for me...
If you dont know if your own gun is "safe" from issues then you're not shooting enough and you're vastly over estimating your own abilities.
As shawn said, seek training.
I can assure y'all that I'm quite serious. Say what you will about the wonder gun of the month; when the fight starts on the mean streets of the big city, and a 9mm is the only thing between me and the medical examiner's knife, make mine a BHP.
Your a character, sir. But whatever floats your boat. ;)
if I could afford training, I would. I've been shooting probably once, twice a week for 2 years so I'm pretty decent. I just found myself falling victim to having the new toy rather than focusing on skill.
Is my glock credentials "safe" from having those issues? Its a nov. 2011 build date with a 0 4 3 spring... seems to run fine for me...
If I had a nickle for every guy that "has been shooting once, twice a week for 2 years" that came out to our drills or a match that couldn't hit shit...
These threads of yours are starting to get confusing. You have the Glock, or you don't? You have money for an HK, or possibly another whole new gun, but not for training?
Nephrology
02-07-12, 05:59
If I had a nickle for every guy that "has been shooting once, twice a week for 2 years" that came out to our drills or a match that couldn't hit shit...
These threads of yours are starting to get confusing. You have the Glock, or you don't? You have money for an HK, or possibly another whole new gun, but not for training?
Such truth.
I thought I was a good shot til I shot my first IPSC match a couple years ago. Wow. Eye opener. I immediately sold the gun (I think it was a Tanfoglio or something shitty) and bought another glock.
Since then its been glocks only. Don't need another gun. Won't make me shoot better. You know what does? MORE (QUALITY!) PRACTICE. I could be carrying a tiger striped desert eagle for all I care, as long as I can put rounds with it on a target when they need to be there then I don't give a damn.
Some platforms might work better for you naturally, yes, but you know what? There is nothing 'natural' about shooting a gun. They are, in the history of the human species, a relatively novel contraption. I don't believe this "waaah Glock makes me pull my shots left/right/up/down" bullshit. I had that problem, and you know what fixed it? Learning how to shoot.
So don't sweat which one you get. So long as it is reliable and you can (and do) afford to train with it, it is the gun for you.
Such truth.
I thought I was a good shot til I shot my first IPSC match a couple years ago. Wow. Eye opener. I immediately sold the gun (I think it was a Tanfoglio or something shitty) and bought another glock.
Since then its been glocks only. Don't need another gun. Won't make me shoot better. You know what does? MORE (QUALITY!) PRACTICE. I could be carrying a tiger striped desert eagle for all I care, as long as I can put rounds with it on a target when they need to be there then I don't give a damn.
Some platforms might work better for you naturally, yes, but you know what? There is nothing 'natural' about shooting a gun. They are, in the history of the human species, a relatively novel contraption. I don't believe this "waaah Glock makes me pull my shots left/right/up/down" bullshit. I had that problem, and you know what fixed it? Learning how to shoot.
So don't sweat which one you get. So long as it is reliable and you can (and do) afford to train with it, it is the gun for you.
Inspiring words. I'm gonna shoot the snot out of my glock. I wish I could find some matches here in CT and get really good, but they are hard to come by around here. Or at least I don't see 'em or hear about them. How does one get started in a beginner match? Can you take lessons on the IDPA? Or do you just sign up and give it a whirl?
I don't know how far it is but it is in your state and I do know that this guys training is worth traveling a little distance for.:)
Quality training is money well spent and honestly is not that expensive.
Scroll down to July it is a two day pistol course in CT.
http://vickerstactical.com/training-by-larry-vickers/2012-training-class-schedule/
I see many guys who have been carrying a gun for years and who may shoot them quite a bit and actually think that they are good with their pistol and in reality they may actually be decent shooters. Unfortunately most people (even the guys mentioned above) generally don't realize that they don't know what they don't know about their own skills. They usually start to realize how much they don't really know right after the first half hour +/- of actually getting quality instruction from a top notch instructor. Working on fundamentals and getting highly proficient with them may sound basic, but in reality it is a very difficult thing to accomplish, especially on your own. Hell I have been shooting for darn near 37 years with a ton of formal training under my belt and I even teach this craft at some pretty high levels and I am still continually working on honing my own fundamentals and shooting skills.
Here is an example for myself. I have never had golf lessons but I like to hack it up once and awhile. I can go out and whack away and hit ball after ball every day. I may think I am doing it correct, but I am probably not (I actually know I am not). I am having a good time and that is what matters. But if I want to get serious about this recreational activity nothing and I mean nothing is going to help me enough than good quality instruction. Then I can go home and practice what I know to be the correct and sound ways of improving my fundamentals and skills. Eventually I will need more lessons to continue my own development. I can spend $300 on whacking bucket after bucket of golf balls trying to teach myself and get minimal returns, or I can take a lesson or two for that same price and get 100X return on my skills vs money invested. Even professionals have coaches or instructors. Just something to think about.
For everyone suggesting to take classes. I've always wondered something. How many of you taking courses are LEO or military or actually use your gun for your job and not just CCW or a hobby? How many are just recreational shooters?
I've watched the magpul classes DVDs and they seem cool and all, but I would just feel a little out of place being a civvy taking tactical operator courses with LEOs and Military on board. I'd feel like a poser. I am just a hobbyist shooter and although I want to improve my skills for personal gain I wonder if some of these classes are overkill for a recreational shooter? I mean s#@t they look fun as hell tho...
Don't think of yourself as a recreational shooter, hobbyist or poser.
Think of yourself as a responsibly armed citizen who wants training.
For everyone suggesting to take classes. I've always wondered something. How many of you taking courses are LEO or military or actually use your gun for your job and not just CCW or a hobby? How many are just recreational shooters?
I've watched the magpul classes DVDs and they seem cool and all, but I would just feel a little out of place being a civvy taking tactical operator courses with LEOs and Military on board. I'd feel like a poser. I am just a hobbyist shooter and although I want to improve my skills for personal gain I wonder if some of these classes are overkill for a recreational shooter? I mean s#@t they look fun as hell tho...
If preparing myself to survive a gunfight, makes me a poser, then so be it. I think it is a good idea to maximize ones chance of getting thru a deadly force encounter, alive. Going thru a high level class, will make that much more likely. If you carry concealed, why not be as prepared as possible?
why should I go to a high performance driving school when I'm just driving to work and back? Not like I'm a racing driver.
Disregard the fact that they teach you how to drive safely, avoid accidents, how to control a car once you lose it, etc.
posers...
For the record by no means am I calling anyone a poser, I just said I might feel like one. I can def see the benefits of what I'd learn in a class.
Beat Trash
02-07-12, 16:55
For everyone suggesting to take classes. I've always wondered something. How many of you taking courses are LEO or military or actually use your gun for your job and not just CCW or a hobby? How many are just recreational shooters?
I've watched the magpul classes DVDs and they seem cool and all, but I would just feel a little out of place being a civvy taking tactical operator courses with LEOs and Military on board. I'd feel like a poser. I am just a hobbyist shooter and although I want to improve my skills for personal gain I wonder if some of these classes are overkill for a recreational shooter? I mean s#@t they look fun as hell tho...
Speaking as a LEO for the last 19 years, I wouldn't feel you were a poser just because you were seeking an advanced level training class. It would only appear that you were attempting to be something you're not if you started talking phrases you felt were "Cop jargon". Things like wearing a duty belt with handcuffs, Navy SEAL shirts w/o having been in the military, ect. would earn you some strange looks.
Trying to give tactical advice to those who've "been there and done that" based on the shooting sport or competition you partake in might not be a wise choice either. But attending training for training's sake as a recreational shooter? I'd say that if given the opportunity, go for it.
Nephrology
02-07-12, 18:58
Speaking as a LEO for the last 19 years, I wouldn't feel you were a poser just because you were seeking an advanced level training class. It would only appear that you were attempting to be something you're not if you started talking phrases you felt were "Cop jargon". Things like wearing a duty belt with handcuffs, Navy SEAL shirts w/o having been in the military, ect. would earn you some strange looks.
Trying to give tactical advice to those who've "been there and done that" based on the shooting sport or competition you partake in might not be a wise choice either. But attending training for training's sake as a recreational shooter? I'd say that if given the opportunity, go for it.
I will also add as an aside that honestly the reason that I stick to handguns (own a shotgun, some .22 rifles, whatever) and don't mess with carbines (yet!) is that, beyond budgetary reasons, I would rather spend my money on learning/maintaining/shooting the gun that I will have with me when the balloon goes up. As an average joe, this means my pistols.
I could spend the next 20 years training with the same glock and still have more to learn. As a result when I invest in serious training, it's probably not going to be a carbine class... at least, not at this point in my life.
If preparing myself to survive a gunfight, makes me a poser, then so be it. I think it is a good idea to maximize ones chance of getting thru a deadly force encounter, alive. Going thru a high level class, will make that much more likely. If you carry concealed, why not be as prepared as possible?
There is a gigantic difference between shoot schools, modern "gunfighting" classes and actual combatives classes.
If you want to learn how to survive a potential armed encounter, go to a ShivWorks class.
If you want to learn how to use the tool in your hands to make the bullets go where your sights are, take any class listed on this website. Learning this skill is the very TIP of the iceberg and it certainly is a mammoth sized iceberg when it comes to utilizing a firearm for self defense purposes.
I have been shooting and training on an obsessive level for four years and i know for a fact i am not prepared to defend myself competently in ANY area other than mindset. I WILL win no matter what the cost, if push comes to shove.
To the OP, its your money dude, no one is going to judge you and if they do, screw em, you're just as entitled to take the class as they are. Having said that, we are blessed in this industry that 90% of the people spending hard earned money on training, no matter the purpose, are all there to learn and push themselves.
Inspiring words. I'm gonna shoot the snot out of my glock. I wish I could find some matches here in CT and get really good, but they are hard to come by around here. Or at least I don't see 'em or hear about them. How does one get started in a beginner match? Can you take lessons on the IDPA? Or do you just sign up and give it a whirl?
You just show up and pay to play. I would suggest practicing at 25 yards, standing. Focus on form, trigger control, etc. Once you get accurate(4-6" maybe), then I'd look at idpa. I did my first match Sunday, it really opened my eyes. I can hit what I'm shooting at, but that is a small part of defending yourself. A very very small part. Personally, I would get good enough to shoot a respectable group (there are threads about form and trigger control here) before going to a match and/or getting professional training. I'd want to learn more than the basics for that, but whatever you need to do to get where you want.
IDPA is not training, but is a great tool to see how you perform under pressure and what needs work. At the match, I saw a few guys who could barely hit the target, let alone the a-zone. Here is an in-depth thread about my experience and what I got from it(first idpa match), if you're interested.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=98578
Nephrology
02-07-12, 19:02
Inspiring words. I'm gonna shoot the snot out of my glock. I wish I could find some matches here in CT and get really good, but they are hard to come by around here. Or at least I don't see 'em or hear about them. How does one get started in a beginner match? Can you take lessons on the IDPA? Or do you just sign up and give it a whirl?
Oh dude. I just read this. Are you kidding? We have the Metacon/NECPL (NECPL recently dissolved and is now part of metacon, kinda sorta) who I shoot with monthly (unless my education intervenes) in Simsbury, just north-ish of Hartford. We also have IDPA at the Hartford Gun Club, IDPA every thursday (tuesday?) at some range in Bridgeport whose name I forget, and then if you are closer to MA than CT, S&W runs some world-class IDPA shoots at their range up there. Even some tiny nobody range in Greenwich of all places hosts IDPA though I don't know how you get invited to them.
I just shot IDPA with Metacon last week. Great guys. Come out. No more excuses.
Our shoots are open to the public, ten dollar entry fee. You are welcome to come as a newbie. Please PM me for more information as I would be happy to help.
train of abuses
02-07-12, 19:38
No matter how complicated the sport and hand eye coordination involved, most people seem to think they don't need formal training. The funny part is the people who have received a lot of high level training and are actually good think they aren't really good enough.
Nephrology
02-07-12, 19:40
No matter how complicated the sport and hand eye coordination involved, most people seem to think they don't need formal training. The funny part is the people who have received a lot of high level training and are actually good think they aren't really good enough.
A 10 dollar entry fee is a lot easier to swallow for most than 525 dollars for a 2- day Vickers pistol class.
Is IDPA the same thing as quality instruction? no. Will it help you run the gun better at speed? Yes. Is it worth the 10 bucks? Absolutely.
Unless, of course, you are suggesting that the two are somehow mutually exclusive. Which is just silly.
train of abuses
02-07-12, 23:26
No, I wasn't addressing you. I was speaking in general terms on what the OP was saying. I was also speaking from a great deal of experience in another complex sport that involves a lot of hand eye coordination! Most people believe they do not need serious training until they are put in an environment that exposes it. I think if he entered competition shooting that would be an eye opener as well. I believe you gave him good advice just as the others telling him to get formal training did.
Ya, I keep going back and forth. I love the HK45c and will be keeping it. I think the G19 is the best choice. thanks guys...
if you like HK's a P2000 in 9mm wouldn't be a bad way to go.... the G19 is quite the gun though. I keep coming back to mine.
No matter how complicated the sport and hand eye coordination involved, most people seem to think they don't need formal training. The funny part is the people who have received a lot of high level training and are actually good think they aren't really good enough.
that's found everywhere, the less people know, the more they think they know, and the less they think there is to know about a given subject.
Nephrology
02-08-12, 06:03
No, I wasn't addressing you. I was speaking in general terms on what the OP was saying. I was also speaking from a great deal of experience in another complex sport that involves a lot of hand eye coordination! Most people believe they do not need serious training until they are put in an environment that exposes it. I think if he entered competition shooting that would be an eye opener as well. I believe you gave him good advice just as the others telling him to get formal training did.
Definitely - no offense taken - I simply wanted to reassure the OP that you can indeed start with baby steps. an IDPA match is probably a good start to getting him/her used to shooting under pressure. With a couple matches under your belt and the confidence that inspires in even rudimentary things like gun handling skills, weapons safety under pressure, and shooting while moving, I think you are better primed to really get more out of your first pistol class. A few matches won't make you a master of those things by any measure but it will get you to come out of your shell a little bit so you can really learn. Being frozen on the firing line or ultra-super-duper cautious, while good, is something you should get over to some extent before you splash out bucks on a good trainer.
There is also the intermediate of seeking local training, too.
that's found everywhere, the less people know, the more they think they know, and the less they think there is to know about a given subject.
If you ever get into biology (particularly the less fluffy subfields, i.e. Cell/Dev/Molecular or any of the IM medical fields) you will be absolutely astounded how crude out understanding of the natural world is. Sometimes I will spontaneously chuckle to myself at how much there is yet to learn. Maybe that makes me a little crazy. I guess all scientists are.
There is a gigantic difference between shoot schools, modern "gunfighting" classes and actual combatives classes.
If you want to learn how to survive a potential armed encounter, go to a ShivWorks class.
If you want to learn how to use the tool in your hands to make the bullets go where your sights are, take any class listed on this website. Learning this skill is the very TIP of the iceberg and it certainly is a mammoth sized iceberg when it comes to utilizing a firearm for self defense purposes.
I have been shooting and training on an obsessive level for four years and i know for a fact i am not prepared to defend myself competently in ANY area other than mindset. I WILL win no matter what the cost, if push comes to shove.
To the OP, its your money dude, no one is going to judge you and if they do, screw em, you're just as entitled to take the class as they are. Having said that, we are blessed in this industry that 90% of the people spending hard earned money on training, no matter the purpose, are all there to learn and push themselves.
I thought we were talking about taking the kind of class, that brings up your skill level with a pistol in a lethal force encounter?
RancidSumo
02-08-12, 10:59
I can assure y'all that I'm quite serious. Say what you will about the wonder gun of the month; when the fight starts on the mean streets of the big city, and a 9mm is the only thing between me and the medical examiner's knife, make mine a BHP.
As for me, when the chips are down and it gets ugly in the big city, make mine a 1911.
Must be dual-wielding.
Anyway as for the original thread, I'd go with the Glock. I wish I had instead of my M&P (because of the size. I prefer a G19 sized gun now that I have a little more experience)
I noticed too but was going to let it go.
I thought we were talking about taking the kind of class, that brings up your skill level with a pistol in a lethal force encounter?
We could have been but that needs to be defined.
There has been lots of talk about IDPA, USPSA etc etc. The waters are a little murky here so again, the OP needs to define exactly what his intention is, what his mindset is and what he wants to do with his tool.
Guns dont take life, people make the tool work to accomplish that goal if that is what their goal is to begin with.
We could have been but that needs to be defined.
There has been lots of talk about IDPA, USPSA etc etc. The waters are a little murky here so again, the OP needs to define exactly what his intention is, what his mindset is and what he wants to do with his tool.
Guns dont take life, people make the tool work to accomplish that goal if that is what their goal is to begin with.
Gotcha.
Would a good progression be:
1self-training
2 IDPA
3 Pistol course
4 Combatives course
?
Then cycle back? This was my plan, so for those who have more experience, does this sound solid? It would seem each one sets the foundation for the next. But I'm in between 1 and 2 so I really have no clue.
There is no good progression in my eyes other than a dedicated mindset towards being one safe mutherF*cker...
Figure out what you want to do first. Explore a lot of options and simply have fun.
There is a time and a place for everything. I compete seriously, i take classes seriously, i spend A LOT of time at the range working by myself and with friends but most of all, i smile, laugh and enjoy what i am doing.
The bottom line is that the "progression" of an individual interested in learning how to use a firearm is largely determined by mindset and the demeanor of the student.
If you have an insatiable curiosity to learn and you KNOW that you learn vicariously and you're a timid student, seek out training from a known good source. The basic idea here is that you have to be able to identify HOW you learn.
If you know you're the type of person that can read a book, look at a diagram or watch a video and repeat a particular skill then by all means, go and teach yourself. You can further supplement your own self teaching path by participating in training, IDPA, USPSA, steel shoots, law enforcement etc.
The bottom line is that there is no natural order to anything other than being safety conscious.
Why not get a hk p30 dimensionally the same as a glock 19 but with a full size grip, and more importantly it has the same manual of arms as the hk 45c , and it is extremely accurate. Just another thought to add.:)
+1 You can't go wrong with H&K.
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