View Full Version : Should I care about a forward assist anymore?
I mean if I'm not building a tactical rifle, should I even worry about a forward assist? Is it even necessary in a tactical AR15 nowadays?
I realize the military still uses them in their rifles, but it's not really easy for them to make the switch if they even wanted to.
Searched, couldn't find the answer, not in the FAQ.
Andrew
My theory is you never know. You could have a top notch rifle and always clean and still have a need for it like one bad round that makes the bolt not want to lock etc.. One of those ohh shit moments..
range guns? No! Safe queens? No! Battle rifles and duty rifles? Yes! I would also look into how much you clean your weapon! If you just like to dump motor oil in weapon? It wouldn't be a bad idea to have one! Thats my unaccredited opinion! haha
I just did a search for the keywords forward assist and almost every thread pertained to the need for one. Answers generally vary based on background and prior training. As to actually I think answer above is pretty much money. Then again who cares the assembly may save you ounces and its not really in the way. Even on my MUR upper its not and thats by far the biggest one on the market. My Knights M110 didnt have one and i never needed it but whos to say I wouldnt have ever needed it? Your call all the same.
Heres a link to the first and I suggest searching Forward Assist if ylu need more insight. try the orange button though. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=134
On another forum, discussions regarding the related manufacturer's Sport rifles' lack of a forward assist seem to always devolve into "the forward assist is simply a panic-button for those who don't know how to clear a jam."
Personally, I prefer to have it, just in case.
YMMV...
~Dan
The only time I ever use one is when I've taken out the buffer and spring and don't replace it before closing the carbine. Invariably I use the forward assist to nudge the bolt carrier forward enough to re open the carbine and put the buffer and spring back in.
That is true but I still like one on anything but a lightweight range toy. All of mine have them.
It's better than no forward assist. I have seen normal AR platforms need them after lots of shooting, although it's not the most important part of the gun and you can run one very hard with never needing it- depending on that gun as an individual.
I hunt with an AR-15 and find it can be important for reasons such as the ability to chamber the round slowly, as well as to get my bolt in place in whatever yucky muck situation I find my gun in by the time I need it to go bang. There are other methods of getting the bolt forward, but I think the assist just makes it much nicer.
As a data point, it was said snipers didn't like that the M-110 didn't have the assist. Whether this is true or not, I do not know. I think I'd like to make sure my bolt is set before I make a life-saving long-range shot too.
To me an upper without a forward assists just looks like it's missing something.......
Funkenstein
02-08-12, 19:30
In my experience we received a very small amount of training with them but they were mainly used in the Vietnam era.
Using it can actually do more harm than good if you aren't careful.
Les Baer makes one without a forward assist and I'm sure some other MFG's do as well.
If I pull the charging handle back slightly to check to see if there is a round in the chamber and then let it go forward, its nice to use the forward assist for assuring the bolt is completely forward. (hope that makes sense). All of mine have them.
In my experience we received a very small amount of training with them but they were mainly used in the Vietnam era.
Yup - I had an all expenses paid trip to Parris Island in 1975 and even then they were telling us it is a useless appendage even though using it was part of immediate action drills.
:)
Heavy Metal
02-08-12, 19:48
My theory is you never know. You could have a top notch rifle and always clean and still have a need for it like one bad round that makes the bolt not want to lock etc..
That's what the charging handle is for.
What other combat weapons systems have a forward assist?
If a round didn't feed the first time, is the prefered solution/immediate action to try and force it forward?
Do you need it? I think not.
My carbines have them though as they as in standard configurations. They however go unused.
Funkenstein
02-08-12, 20:11
Also, if you really don't want it but have a lower with one I think you can get a plug and save a few ounces. Just a thought.
That's what the charging handle is for.
Yeah and when you go to charge it that bent round is fte and then you possibly end up with a double feed. Better off pushing the fa before anything else.
Every time this comes up I point out the one environmental consideration that makes a F/A relevant...SNOW.
Drop your magazine in snow or accidentally drop the rifle when the bolt is locked to the rear during a reload (easy to do in ice) and see if a forward assist is necessary.
It is.
Ask me how I know.
It's faster to force the bolt into battery and thus displace the snow in an emergency than it is to fingerbang the gun (This is NOT the same as forcing an oversized / bad round into battery) I'm not talking about a ****ing shit ton of snow where there's a danger of a KABOOM, but a bit of snow keeping the bolt from fully locking into battery by just 1 or 2 MM's. The snow flash melts upon ignition and you're good to go. The fact that the snow burns off is what makes it different than debris. If your magazines get packed with snow (this DOES happen), the F/A can be very useful. Again, this is NOT the same as forcing a bad round into battery and the obvious FTE problems do not manifest.
Had to use the F/A quite often in the environment below:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/snow38.jpg
Now, if you force a damaged or deformed round into battery you're going to get a failure to extract. That's the danger of the F/A for those who use it improperly. 99% of the time it serves no purpose.
Heavy Metal
02-08-12, 20:24
Yeah and when you go to charge it that bent round is fte and then you possibly end up with a double feed. Better off pushing the fa before anything else.
You are just making shit up and don't have a clue what you are saying. Did you even think before you posted?
If you can get the bolt(extractor to be precise) to snap over the rim, you can extract it. If you cannot get the bolt to snap over the rim, you can't chamber it with the forward assist under any condition.
There is Immediate Action followed by Remedial Action. First is Tap(Push/Pull actually), Rack and Bang. If no Bang, then lock the bolt to the rear, remove the magazine, finger-**** the upper in front of the breech going up thru the mag well, drop the bolt, insert a fresh mag and cycle. That is a TRB followed by a Rip Drill. That is what reputable trainers teach or a close varation thereof. Nowhere in that is the Forward Assist mentioned or used.
I have seen M-16's locked up tight because some doofus tried to chamber an oversized round or a round with too much debris in the chamber. It wouldn't close enough to fire and was wedged it in too tight to remove without tools. He deadlined a weapon that a pull on the charging handle would have fixed in two seconds.
Pounding the Forward Assist is a huge no-go. Anything more than a gentile push and you are wrong.
It's better than no forward assist. I have seen normal AR platforms need them after lots of shooting, although it's not the most important part of the gun and you can run one very hard with never needing it- depending on that gun as an individual.
I hunt with an AR-15 and find it can be important for reasons such as the ability to chamber the round slowly, as well as to get my bolt in place in whatever yucky muck situation I find my gun in by the time I need it to go bang. There are other methods of getting the bolt forward, but I think the assist just makes it much nicer.
As a data point, it was said snipers didn't like that the M-110 didn't have the assist. Whether this is true or not, I do not know. I think I'd like to make sure my bolt is set before I make a life-saving long-range shot too.
The only purpose it would serve on a precision weapon system is for a press check. That being quiet manipulation. If I get into a situation with that weapon where I has to dump I would switch to my m4. Hands down a better fighting platform than my 110. Dirty bent, or damaged round? Get that piece of shit out of my 8000$ precision rig. My two cents.
Yeah and when you go to charge it that bent round is fte and then you possibly end up with a double feed. Better off pushing the fa before anything else.
What?
I've never needed one. I would order w/o if it was an option. http://m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=374&pictureid=1897
You are just making shit up and don't have a clue what you are saying. Did you even think before you posted?
If you can get the bolt(extractor to be precise) to snap over the rim, you can extract it. If you cannot get the bolt to snap over the rim, you can't chamber it with the forward assist under any condition.
There is Immediate Action followed by Remedial Action. First is Tap(Push/Pull actually), Rack and Bang. If no Bang, then lock the bolt to the rear, remove the magazine, finger-**** the upper in front of the breech going up thru the mag well, drop the bolt, insert a fresh mag and cycle. That is a TRB followed by a Rip Drill. That is what reputable trainers teach or a close varation thereof. Nowhere in that is the Forward Assist mentioned or used.
I have seen M-16's locked up tight because some doofus tried to chamber an oversized round or a round with too much debris in the chamber. It wouldn't close enough to fire and was wedged it in too tight to remove without tools. He deadlined a weapon that a pull on the charging handle would have fixed in two seconds.
Pounding the Forward Assist is a huge no-go. Anything more than a gentile push and you are wrong.
First nowhere was pound the forward assist said and second I was referring to a slightly bent casing on the first round of a mag when you charge it the bolt does not lock. Push on the forward assist to lock it. I have had this happen while at a range zeroing. After it was fired there was no failure to eject. I was not referring to a bent round in the middle of popping rounds off and performing immediate action.
Every time this comes up I point out the one environmental consideration that makes a F/A relevant...SNOW.
Drop your magazine in snow or accidentally drop the rifle when the bolt is locked to the rear during a reload (easy to do in ice) and see if a forward assist is necessary.
It is.
Ask me how I know.
It's faster to force the bolt into battery and thus displace the snow in an emergency than it is to fingerbang the gun (This is NOT the same as forcing an oversized / bad round into battery) I'm not talking about a ****ing shit ton of snow where there's a danger of a KABOOM, but a bit of snow keeping the bolt from fully locking into battery by just 1 or 2 MM's. The snow flash melts upon ignition and you're good to go. The fact that the snow burns off is what makes it different than debris. If your magazines get packed with snow (this DOES happen), the F/A can be very useful. Again, this is NOT the same as forcing a bad round into battery and the obvious FTE problems do not manifest.
Had to use the F/A quite often in the environment below:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/snow38.jpg
Now, if you force a damaged or deformed round into battery you're going to get a failure to extract. That's the danger of the F/A for those who use it improperly. 99% of the time it serves no purpose.
I'm really at a loss for why this explanation in this succinct fashion is something I haven't seen before...
I mean if I'm not building a tactical rifle, should I even worry about a forward assist? Is it even necessary in a tactical AR15 nowadays? I realize the military still uses them in their rifles, but it's not really easy for them to make the switch if they even wanted to. Searched, couldn't find the answer, not in the FAQ.
Andrew
The forward assist is useful in ensuring that the bolt is battery following a press check.
It can be useful in closing the bolt through soft obstructions if there is urgent need to do so.
Using the FA has a time and place. Misused, it can turn a simple stoppage into a hard obstruction.
I don't care but you make up your own mind. :dirol:
This is a completely worthless post that contributes nothing to the thread. It perfectly exemplifies the graphic in your sig line: "I have nothing to add so I'm just posting to raise my post count!" To help preserve the signal:noise ratio here at M4C, keep such comments to yourself. This is not TOS or an assortment of other boards. If you can't suppress the compulsion to make such comments, send them to the OP via PM. No one wants this crap here, and it's getting out of hand.
Been discussed numerous times. Try the search feature, there has been a lot of good discussion on this in the past.
My take in a nutshell (more detail in previous threads): The FA is crucial on a fighting rifle. The proper use of the FA is frequently misunderstood. The FA IS an administrative action undertaken when a charging handle press check is performed.
The FA IS NOT hit hard as we do not want to smash an out of spec cartridge into the chamber for obvious reasons. It IS NOT used in any malfunction clearance. It IS NOT used in any immediate action drills.
Also, I have no experience with what a0cake mentioned regarding snow but it sounds valid.
Endur - I echo a0cake ... what?
Note: The final, albeit controversial use of a FA is to chamber a round into a highly fouled weapon system. Pull trigger - mushy trigger - tilt look - bolt almost forward --> push bolt fully forward with FA. That the user allowed the weapon to reach such dismal condition is between regrettable and unforgivable. Again, the FA is not jammed hard but pushed forward to get the bolt fully forward. This will likely have to be repeated. This obviously puts you in a very bad place in a gun fight.
Edit to add: I like the way Skintop911 describes the use of FA to push through soft obstructions. That covers a highly fouled weapon as well as snow and other such "soft" obstructions.
...It IS NOT used in any immediate action drills.
Things do change over time, but it certainly used to be.
Again, the FA is not jammed hard but pushed forward to get the bolt fully forward. This will likely have to be repeated. This obviously puts you in a very bad place in a gun fight.
Another thing that may have changed, but we were trained to smack it smartly. Again, the very people training us to do that were telling us to do it because they were required to and were also telling us it was useless. All of my drill instructors had been to Vietnam and had direct experience with it.
I have a Colt that was lubed when new, fired 1400 times then put up for a year and recently fired 100 mOre times without adding lube. I like not having a forward assist. Rainier sells uppers like that.
What other combat weapons systems have a forward assist?
Well, a few you may have heard of...M-1 Garand, M-14, AK series...
You think that smacking the rear of the bolt handle isn't the equivalent of a separate 'forward assist'?
The primary reason the separate F/A was added to the AR-design was because it didn't have an bolt handle to use as a strike-point to drive the bolt closed like the M-1/M-14.
MikeN
Locutus - Yeah brother, times change. I'm not the authority on this and don't claim to be but I am pretty confident on my understanding of current procedures with the FA. I'm always willing to learn so I am all about opposing viewpoints.
Immediate actions - The reason that the FA is skipped during IA is that they, by their very nature, happen during gunfights. Taking time to hit an FA under those circumstances is hardly prudent.
Also, regardless of what you consider an immediate action drill, the full power of the buffer spring will have been used to push the bolt forward. 99.99% of the time, that will be enough to chamber a round. So is it really worth your time to dick around with the FA in a gunfight?
In those rare circumstances when this is not enough force to chamber the round, you either have a really, really, really dirty gun (hopefully rare), another soft/hard obstruction (pretty rare), or the cartridge is very out of spec (rare). The FA will probably help with the first (as mentioned above), may or may not help with the second, and can be disastrous in the third case. Again, this is for the .01% case.
Smacking FA - An out of spec cartridge can cause you to have a very bad day. If the full weight of the buffer spring has not brought the bolt fully forward or you did a charging handle press check and the bolt isn't going forward fully even though you have applied light pressure to the FA, the solution is to rack the charging handle and allow a new round to chamber (or tap-tug-rack-reacquire for consistency). If the next round doesn't chamber, there may be something more serious wrong with the weapon system.
I never use the FA when plinking at the range or shooting from the bench.
I seem to use the FA a lot more when doing press checks during 3 gun and training classes.
I have a Colt that was lubed when new, fired 1400 times then put up for a year and recently fired 100 mOre times without adding lube. I like not having a forward assist. Rainier sells uppers like that.
What does your lack of maintenance have to do with the FA? Not being a jerk, I just don't get the connection.
I'm really at a loss for why this explanation in this succinct fashion is something I haven't seen before...
Not sure, I know I never thought about it until it happened, and it was never an issue in training. We had an emergency Class V resupply come in the form of preloaded mags strapped down onto litters with no tarp (jackasses), The rotor wash from the UH had packed the mags with snow. They still worked but snow was getting stripped out of the mag along with the round. The F/A was instrumental in getting the bolt into battery every 5 rounds or so. It was a big pain in the ass. The whole thing convinced me of the necessity of the F/A. I can't blame the people who say the F/A is useless, because I was once closer to that camp.
Immediate actions - The reason that the FA is skipped during IA is that they, by their very nature, happen during gunfights. Taking time to hit an FA under those circumstances is hardly prudent.
Also, regardless of what you consider an immediate action drill, the full power of the buffer spring will have been used to push the bolt forward. 99.99% of the time, that will be enough to chamber a round. So is it really worth your time to dick around with the FA in a gunfight?
Makes sense to me. :)
In those rare circumstances when this is not enough force to chamber the round, you either have a really, really, really dirty gun (hopefully rare)
The only time I ever had a failure to chamber was not because it was dirty, but because I failed to adequately lube the BCG. I was operating under the illusion that less lube would mean less fouling to clean later. It got me tossed off the range for the day and I'm grateful I learned that lesson on the range and not someplace ugly. :)
I use the FA in the hunting field quite frequently.
1. When I have to q u i e t l y chamber a round, the FA helps to fully seat the bolt.
2. Sometimes I have to chamber the same round multiple times, so I ride the bolt home so as to not ding the primer, the FA allows you to to get the rifle into battery without marking up the cartridge.
Without the FA I'd have to use my index finger to push the bolt closed... kinda like I have to do with my S&W M&P-15/22.
What does your lack of maintenance have to do with the FA? Not being a jerk, I just don't get the connection.
The carrier goes forward without assistance even in a poorly maintained rifle.
The pros and cons have been discussed several times. Do we really need to continue beating this again?
The pros and cons have been discussed several times. Do we really need to continue beating this again?
No honestly not I've discussed this.
I just did a search for the keywords forward assist and almost every thread pertained to the need for one. Answers generally vary based on background and prior training. As to actually I think answer above is pretty much money. Then again who cares the assembly may save you ounces and its not really in the way. Even on my MUR upper its not and thats by far the biggest one on the market. My Knights M110 didnt have one and i never needed it but whos to say I wouldnt have ever needed it? Your call all the same.
Heres a link to the first and I suggest searching Forward Assist if ylu need more insight. try the orange button though. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=134
Thanks
The pros and cons have been discussed several times. Do we really need to continue beating this again?
Maybe you could include this topic in the FAQ if it does indeed come up that often?
I appreciate all the posts, all I really get from them is that most people use it because it is there. The F/A was originally added to the rifle because of the short comes of switching powders, not issuing cleaning kits, and all this going on in a police action(vietnam). The forward assist does indeed help push the bolt forward, but it shouldn't be necessary if you are properly trained on the proper function of the weapon.
That being said, if I find a great deal of an upper, and it does or does not have a forward assist, then I'm not going to be too distraught.
Not that I couldn't switch uppers easily enough though.
wetidlerjr
02-09-12, 01:58
I have never used one to any advantage so I don't care one way or the other if they are on a rifle. YMMV
You may find this thread useful.
Current Need for a Forward Assist? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92951)
:cool:
The forward assist was ordered before systemic issues appeared in Vietnam, not after.
Thanks douche
He's trying to direct you to more info, and is encouraging the use of the Search features, and that's your response?
Check your tone in any future posts you make, and check your PMs. Something is waiting there for your immediate attention.
I've seen a0cake's description no less than three times within the last 6 months, so, to anybody doesn't like getting told to search because this discussion's hapened more than once...
...build a goddamned bridge, GET OVER IT.
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