View Full Version : Free M16s!
I walked into the station today and there was a big box in my office. Finally! After almost 2 years we received our program rifles. I only unpacked one from the vacuum seal. It appears to be the one in the worst condition.
Upon initial inspection, two of them are in the 4 million serial number range and one is in the 3 hundred thousand range. All have the same roll mark on the receivers.
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010230.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010231.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010234.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010240.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010241.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010237.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010238.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010239.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010233.jpg
Was rather hoping this was a giveaway thread, but nice. Heh.
Littlelebowski
02-08-12, 19:46
I've got a gooseneck Picatinny rail adaptor for that carry handle if you want it. Let me know.
The only markings on the upper receiver is this. It appears to be a square with a 0 inside and a triangle under it....
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010242.jpg
I've got a gooseneck Picatinny rail adaptor for that carry handle if you want it. Let me know.
Thanks, but we are going to use the lower receivers and make them carbines. I was thinking 11.5. My K9 guy suggested 12.5.
Was rather hoping this was a giveaway thread, but nice. Heh.
Pretty sneaky sis! :sarcastic:
Thanks
Littlelebowski
02-08-12, 19:53
Thanks, but we are going to use the lower receivers and make them carbines. I was thinking 11.5. My K9 guy suggested 12.5.
No prob. Let me know if anyone in your dept needs it.
No prob. Let me know if anyone in your dept needs it.
Will do! Thanks for the offer!
Are you guys allowed SSFs & BAD-CASS 3P-M16s?
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-08-12, 20:06
Cool I have not seen one of then since 03 when some airforce SF troops had them at Bagram.
Are you guys allowed SSFs & BAD-CASS 3P-M16s?
I was given the go ahead to set up whatever I could but to do it piece by piece so the boss doesn't have to get council approval. I have procured a Remington 870T, 2 BCM middy rifles and now 3 M16s for my department since 2008 using only grants and old weapon trades. We have not used "taxpayer" money for firearms since I got the department its Glock 22s in 2006. They replaced 15 year old Sig 228s. The money is out there but you gotta do a little bit of work to find it.
Is that carbon on the bolt?
I should say in the bolt and on the extractor!
I should say in the bolt and on the extractor!
No. It appears that the bolt and carrier have not been fired. I really can not tell if the rifle has been fired. There are some powder marks on the inside of the hand guard but that doesn't mean it was fired on that rifle.
The entire bolt carrier group is intriguing. The staking is different and the carrier key is a different color. There is no black insert in the extractor spring and the firing pin is not shrouded. There are brown fibers all over the rifle on the inside and outside. Looks like the cardboard box rotted away around the rifle! The rifle was vacuum sealed on 30 May 2007.
An awful lot of those LESO guns look like they were never fielded and only armory-handled. When one agency received theirs, the instructor sprayed the assembled BCG with CLP, and then students shot them for hours with no additional intention. GTG, out of the box.
The only markings on the upper receiver is this. It appears to be a square with a 0 inside and a triangle under it....
Mil proof markings. Very cool.
Scotter260
02-09-12, 08:34
I was given the go ahead to set up whatever I could but to do it piece by piece so the boss doesn't have to get council approval. I have procured a Remington 870T, 2 BCM middy rifles and now 3 M16s for my department since 2008 using only grants and old weapon trades. We have not used "taxpayer" money for firearms since I got the department its Glock 22s in 2006. They replaced 15 year old Sig 228s. The money is out there but you gotta do a little bit of work to find it.
Well, 3 out of 4 ain't bad. ;)
It would be interesting to know all the goodies Uncle Sugar has stored away considering what they can "give" away.
Well, 3 out of 4 ain't bad. ;)
It would be interesting to know all the goodies Uncle Sugar has stored away considering what they can "give" away.
Don't forget that choosing a weapon for several people with several different skill sets is not easy. The Glock is my first choice but the 22 was the best option for the whole of the department.
About 6 or 7 years ago, I met a local Sheriff out at the range to help him "sort" out his departments "free" M16s they just received from the Feds. I assumed we were going to disassemble, inspect them then test fire, noting issues and repairing/replacing parts as needed. Wrong!!
His plan was to test fire only. He said he was too busy to "fix" anything and any gun that did not work he would send back and get more because they were "free"??? literally he had a trunk full of M16s (most looked brand new) and several cases of ammo. His method was load a full mag, several shots on semi then mag dump. Then put rifle in the "good" pile or the "bad" pile. All I could do was shake my head.:confused::confused::confused:
Not the best method but I bet it was fun!
Full auto on someone elses dime always makes it more fun!
About 6 or 7 years ago, I met a local Sheriff out at the range to help him "sort" out his departments "free" M16s they just received from the Feds. I assumed we were going to disassemble, inspect them then test fire, noting issues and repairing/replacing parts as needed. Wrong!!
His plan was to test fire only. He said he was too busy to "fix" anything and any gun that did not work he would send back and get more because they were "free"??? literally he had a trunk full of M16s (most looked brand new) and several cases of ammo. His method was load a full mag, several shots on semi then mag dump. Then put rifle in the "good" pile or the "bad" pile. All I could do was shake my head.:confused::confused::confused:
Few folks do any meaningful inspection process on new acquisitions, esp LE. If they do, they may or may not know what they're really looking for or at. "Lube and shoot" is a popular test.
Not an ideal protocol. However, when you have a gun built to standard at the start, you have a much higher probability of getting by with that.
Nice. Are you replacing the uppers or just barrels? Keeping them select fire or converting to semi?
Nice. Are you replacing the uppers or just barrels? Keeping them select fire or converting to semi?
I am going to try and change everything out. I want to do a short one and a longer one to match the other guns in service.
Suwannee Tim
02-09-12, 21:08
.....His method was load a full mag, several shots on semi then mag dump......
I knew a guy who was EOD for the National Guard. His preferred method of "D" was to shoot it. That was a sweet deal while it lasted.
Put me on the list for one from the next batch.:D
Robb Jensen
02-09-12, 21:37
Some of our local LE agencies got Colts, H&Rs and GM Hydramatics from the Gov't program. All the ones I've handled were all almost new and some were new.
Morton Co.
02-10-12, 05:16
The LESO M16's that were issued in our state had new fire control parts, buffer and spring, bolt and carrier. Sealed in the wrap and it looked like they all when through a refurbishment before sealing. LESO people said this batch came from the Air Force.
My agency got a lot of the M-16's and a few M-14s years ago. All of the M-16 had been gone through at a military depot so they were reconditioned to like new then placed in storage on a depot, before being released to us. I did not see the M-14s until after they had been in service for a awhile so I do not know what condition they were received in.
viperashes
02-12-12, 09:50
Cory, if you end up getting rid of those upper receivers, I wouldn't mind taking one off you. Not sure on your department regs on selling or getting rid of equipment, but I'm looking for an old A1 slickside upper to put a 7.5" barrel on for a PDW upper build.
Cory, if you end up getting rid of those upper receivers, I wouldn't mind taking one off you. Not sure on your department regs on selling or getting rid of equipment, but I'm looking for an old A1 slickside upper to put a 7.5" barrel on for a PDW upper build.
Sorry but it won't happen. Part of the deal is that the gov't can call them back at any time and they have to be returned in the condition the gov't loaned them to the agency in.
Dan
Sorry but it won't happen. Part of the deal is that the gov't can call them back at any time and they have to be returned in the condition the gov't loaned them to the agency in.
Dan
I am not sure this is entirely correct. I called a local class 3 dealer and he said he has purchased several Uppers and furniture from local police departments in his area.
viperashes
02-13-12, 09:55
I am not sure this is entirely correct. I called a local class 3 dealer and he said he has purchased several Uppers and furniture from local police departments in his area.
Well, definitely CYA and find out first, but if it is possible and your Dept ends up selling them for a reasonable price to fund further upgrades to the rifles you are building, feel free to email me.
KalashniKEV
02-13-12, 10:40
I am not sure this is entirely correct. I called a local class 3 dealer and he said he has purchased several Uppers and furniture from local police departments in his area.
I'm not 110% familiar with the details of the program, but unless he has:
1) An MWO to convert 1 x M16A1 to ______(whatever).
2) An agreement to purchase the old CLIX parts from DRMO (similar to the Remington M24 deal)
...I think he may have made a big mistake.
Firearms and components obtained under the LESO program remain the property of the US government. It is generally permissible to make non-permanent modifications to them for local use. However, agencies must maintain the original components so that the gun can be returned to received, GI configuration upon demand of DOD.
There is peril in violating LESO rules. Don't play fast and loose with them.
I am not sure this is entirely correct. I called a local class 3 dealer and he said he has purchased several Uppers and furniture from local police departments in his area.
PD's trade guns in all the time. I just got a complete M4 parts kit (everything sans the receiver) from a LE trade-in. However, those guns were purchased by the agency; not freebies from Uncle Sam.
PD's trade guns in all the time. I just got a complete M4 parts kit (everything sans the receiver) from a LE trade-in. However, those guns were purchased by the agency; not freebies from Uncle Sam.
Let me clarify my post a little.
The Class 3 guy I spoke to said that he has bought several M16 uppers and furniture from police departments that received rifles from this program.
I spoke to my chief and he is going to call and find out exactly what can be done to these rifles. I just don't see why the government would want the rifles back let alone the old out dated uppers. These barrels aren't even the proper twist rate. The .gov is funny with a lot of things so nothing would surprise me. They called us and wanted to give us MORE rifles than we requested. We asked for 2 and they wanted to give us 4. We settled on 3. I can't see why they would want them back when they were begging us to take them.
KalashniKEV
02-15-12, 08:35
The Class 3 guy I spoke to said that he has bought several M16 uppers and furniture from police departments that received rifles from this program.
I speak with no authority on this issue, but that sounds like a definite no-go.
Unless property ownership is transferred to each little police department, property accountability still rests with whoever owns the property book.
If the owner of that set of books sought disposition instructions from the government and was told, "Yeah, just sell them" then he would be negligent not to get that on a letterhead, in a safe, with a high quality color copy framed on the wall.
I just don't see why the government would want the rifles back let alone the old out dated uppers.
Property accountability is so weird like that, maaaaaan. :big_boss:
These barrels aren't even the proper twist rate.
1:12?
Oh, well you didn't say that... yeah, just trash them.
(you're playing with FIRE)
They called us and wanted to give us MORE rifles than we requested... I can't see why they would want them back when they were begging us to take them.
LOLOLOL... well if you can just sell them and keep the receivers, why not get 1000?
You could just chuck all the spare lowers in a box in the arms room and have a hell of a picnic come springtime!
Preliminary findings with local departments that have these M16s are that they are using the rifles as is (they have no idea about twits rates) or they are upgrading and keeping all spare parts.
charmcitycop
02-19-12, 15:13
.......
Morton Co.
02-21-12, 20:32
You can modify LESO weapons to your hearts content. However your agency must retain all original parts in the event they are recalled or your agency turns them back into TACOM. LESO weapon leads are pretty adamant that they be turned in complete with all parts originally issued.
My chief called the contact person for these rifles. He had no idea if the parts needed to be kept. I spoke with several different local departments and they are all keeping the parts. I will do this also.
KalashniKEV
02-22-12, 07:53
He had no idea if the parts needed to be kept.
:lol:
So wait, wait... let me get this straight- when you started a thread called, "Free M16s!" you actually... in your mind... thought that they were "FREE?"
:lol:
So wait, wait... let me get this straight- when you started a thread called, "Free M16s!" you actually... in your mind... thought that they were "FREE?"
Nothing is free brother!
I did think that we could do what we wish with the parts (not the lower obviously) because of how they literally pushed these rifles on us. The upper parts are not useable (unsafe) with modern ammunition and in my mind serve more of a use for a collector. But who would question .gov's stupid rules, right? I will be happy to give them their 1/12 twist barrels back when/if they request them.
In my previous post, when I wrote
"He had no idea if the parts needed to be kept"
I was speaking about the contact person that sent us the rifles, not us. If we wouldn't have asked, we would have had the parts sold by now....
Magic_Salad0892
02-22-12, 19:10
Goddamnit. I thought this was a giveaway thread.
Goddamnit. I thought this was a giveaway thread.
Gotcha!....:laugh:
KalashniKEV
02-22-12, 21:33
If we wouldn't have asked, we would have had the parts sold by now....
So much for responsible stewardship of government property.
I wonder if someone else... somewhere... could be so painfully unaware, order a few hundred to strip, chuck all the lowers in a box in the arms room, and sell the parts online.
It could be like a CMP for M16s via stupidity!
...and a money printing press for whoever profits other than the accountable officer who signs for the rifles.
Damn it! Now I want to build a retro!
Damn it! Now I want to build a retro!
I can send you some parts but I may need them back! :haha:
KalashniKEV
02-23-12, 08:54
I can send you some parts but I may need them back! :haha:
Hey... I like this idea.
With an annual rental fee you could probably finance a few leather couches for the break room or perhaps even a new flat screen.
Or have a heck of a barbeque in the spring!
It sounds like it might be a better idea if I trade your department a live webcast course on AR 735-5 or it's USG equivalent though... :D
About 6 or 7 years ago, I met a local Sheriff out at the range to help him "sort" out his departments "free" M16s they just received from the Feds. I assumed we were going to disassemble, inspect them then test fire, noting issues and repairing/replacing parts as needed. Wrong!!
His plan was to test fire only. He said he was too busy to "fix" anything and any gun that did not work he would send back and get more because they were "free"??? literally he had a trunk full of M16s (most looked brand new) and several cases of ammo. His method was load a full mag, several shots on semi then mag dump. Then put rifle in the "good" pile or the "bad" pile. All I could do was shake my head.:confused::confused::confused:
that's crazy. it seems like a small amount of know how and a few parts and those guns could make a nice addition to any department.
CarlosDJackal
02-23-12, 11:45
Was rather hoping this was a giveaway thread, but nice. Heh.
You and me both!! Talk about a let down. ;)
Pretty nice. You weren't kidding when you said "M-16".
Now don't do what the local agencies did with theirs. Two had theirs converted to semi-auto and one installed a butt-ugly aluminum brass deflector (instead of issuing one of those snap-on plastic ones to left-handed shooters. They also had 20-round magazines converted to shoot 10-rounds (90% of which caused malfunctions)./
My former agency have had theirs stored in a safe for almost 7-years and the FIs all wanted to get rid of them because they insist that: "the shotgun can do everything a rifle can". I don't know if they have even shot those.
I'd go 11.5" unless you have plans to use suppressors. Then maybe the 12+" option is the better option. Good luck!!
CarlosDJackal
02-23-12, 11:48
My chief called the contact person for these rifles. He had no idea if the parts needed to be kept. I spoke with several different local departments and they are all keeping the parts. I will do this also.
I would retain. There is usually some fine print about the guvment retaining the option to ask for the equipment back in case they decide to re-issue, sell overseas or (the more likely scenario!) destroy the item so "it doesn't fall into the wrong hands".
Don't everybody jump my shit all at once :) Wouldn't you be better off with semi-auto rather than a F/A for a patrol rifle?
I know they're fun range toys but it seems to me that a S/A would be better suited to the needs of a PD from a liability and cost stand point. Please don't misconstrue my line of reasoning thinking I'm saying "Cops don't need a ...." as that isn't the case and I'd like to hear genuine answers.
Don't everybody jump my shit all at once :) Wouldn't you be better off with semi-auto rather than a F/A for a patrol rifle?
I know they're fun range toys but it seems to me that a S/A would be better suited to the needs of a PD from a liability and cost stand point. Please don't misconstrue my line of reasoning thinking I'm saying "Cops don't need a ...." as that isn't the case and I'd like to hear genuine answers.
FA and burst-fire can be tools, but have exceptionally limited use in the LE patrol environment.
Cost and liability issues are real. It's rare to find agencies purchasing/acquiring such guns that will also provide a minimally credible select-fire training program. To do so can be time and ammo intensive.
In the case of the LESO guns, most agencies will disable the FA position, or tell troops not to use it. The former is subject to tampering, the latter to troop's willingness to comply. Both are problematic.
LE has a tendency to buy good-as instead of quality guns. Add a select-fire variable, and functional issues can magnify greatly.
For a time, a surge in demand created a condition in which LE agencies could get NFA guns faster and for the same price, and many did.
My thinking was running along the same lines. Thanks Skintop.
charmcitycop
02-23-12, 18:26
.......
You must have missed the most important part...FREE. Find some of those sear blocks the military made or pay for a colt semi auto FCG. all a very cost effective way to get rifles on the street.
You must have missed the important part... I'm a taxpayer and am critical of how my hard earned money gets spent. ;) They may not have charged Cory or his department to transfer them but they definitely weren't free by any means. At one point in time they were paid for using American taxpayer dollars and as such I'd like one too. :)
Bear with me for a second as some of the time stuff is me making assumptions. If you really break it down tax dollars paid for the time to get clearance from supervisors for acquiring them, time to fill out requisitions, box'em up and shipping of the rifles, time to unbox, inspect and play with them and more than likely a lot of ammunition for dumps on full auto! WOO HOO!!! :moil:
I'm sure there's a few steps I'm missing including the time and expense of reconfiguring them with the appropriate modern barrel, handguard, muzzle piece, etc. Time that will be used BS'ing around the watercooler about the cool new machineguns that the department got.
If you take all that into account and it is in fact cheaper than buying new semi-auto versions than right on! The actual price, or lack of, isn't always as simple as "Hey, they're free!".
Again, please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I sincerely wish every Police Officer was given the proper training, on an ongoing basis, and was provided the proper tools for their job in whatever environment they're working in.
Irish, the actual cost of the rifles were $150.00 for shipping, and $150 each for an audit fee. These rifles do not appear to have been used. The government purchased them and they were never put into use. As I posted earlier, I have purchased all of our long guns that are currently in use on grants. I always try to find a way to upgrade my department's firearms with grants and such before going to our council and asking for local tax dollars. I will use my money finding skills to do the upgrades also.
To answer your question about full auto capability, I do not think it is necessary in LE to have full auto but I wouldn't say that it doesn't have its place. I can day that we are not going to increase our ammo budget because of these rifles.
Cory - All the best to you and your fellow Officers. PM sent. Stay safe.
Cool photos! Thanks for sharing them. Neat to see an A1 up close like that.
You must have missed the important part... I'm a taxpayer and am critical of how my hard earned money gets spent. ;) They may not have charged Cory or his department to transfer them but they definitely weren't free by any means. At one point in time they were paid for using American taxpayer dollars and as such I'd like one too. :)
Bear with me for a second as some of the time stuff is me making assumptions. If you really break it down tax dollars paid for the time to get clearance from supervisors for acquiring them, time to fill out requisitions, box'em up and shipping of the rifles, time to unbox, inspect and play with them and more than likely a lot of ammunition for dumps on full auto! WOO HOO!!! :moil:
I'm sure there's a few steps I'm missing including the time and expense of reconfiguring them with the appropriate modern barrel, handguard, muzzle piece, etc. Time that will be used BS'ing around the watercooler about the cool new machineguns that the department got.
If you take all that into account and it is in fact cheaper than buying new semi-auto versions than right on! The actual price, or lack of, isn't always as simple as "Hey, they're free!".
Again, please don't misconstrue what I'm saying. I sincerely wish every Police Officer was given the proper training, on an ongoing basis, and was provided the proper tools for their job in whatever environment they're working in.
Yes, our tax dollars paid for them. The military has three choices when it comes to these firearms. The can continue to store them in a depot warehouse which costs money, cut them up because they cannot sell them to individuals or release them to law enforcement agencies. All the solutions cost tax payer money.
The mag dumps you mention could be an additional cost to the taxpayers, if mag dumps are allowed. It could also be a lesson learned about how ineffective full auto fire can be. If the lesson is learned on the range then that mag dump may have saved millions in civil litigation and money paid out.
You are never going to keep officers from talking "around the water cooler," but know they are talking firearms. Good or bad?
The guns we received were issued as is. The 1/12 barrel shoots our 55 gr. duty ammo fine. The total number we received is between 400 and 600. I know the initial shipment was 400 and more were received a few years later. We also received some M-14s.
I wanted the auto sears pulled and a semi selector/safety installed, but it was not done. We have had our M-16s for 15 years and only had one issue. Fortunately no one was injured during the incident. It took 10 - 12 years for that one issue to occur.
Many officers purchased their own upper and attached them to the lower. It doesn't take long to push two pins and replace an upper. They do have to qualify with their upper on the lower.
Yes, our agency did provide training to include full-auto, but we did not perform mag dumps. With the exception of the one incident, no officer has fired one full auto in the performance of their duties, which surprises me a little. I thought they were an accident waiting to happen, but that was not the case. If it were my choice I would still convert them to semi.
Years ago I taught a carbine class to the local FBI Fugitive Task Force. The FBI agents had M-16 A1s that had the full auto deactivated by a piece of sheet metal that attached between the lower receiver and pistol grip. It prevented the selector from being placed in the full-auto position.
Yes, our tax dollars paid for them...
Rather than continuing to derail this thread further with what I was trying to convey I sent CoryCop a PM as I detailed in my last post. Sometimes it's easier to have adult discussions off line and not in a public forum where things are misconstrued and people jump to conclusions prematurely.
I'm not directing the above at you and only speaking in general terms. Please check your PM's. Best, Irish~
Scotter260
03-23-12, 01:28
The percentage for distribution is/was 20% of a department's number of full-time licensed officers/deputies or at least one of each (M16 and M14) if a department was so small it wouldn't qualify which would be my department. Mind you this was the rule back in 2005 when we got ours so I'm not sure if that's changed. Shipping at that time was $40 each for the rifles and less if you got more units.
Fast forward a couple of years and there was a freeze on the program because some chief's who didn't know s#!t were selling or had sold them to dealers to get newer, top-shelf semi-auto carbines - likely DPMS and RRA ;). Every department that had received firearms through the program had to verify that they still had them in their inventory before they'd start issuing rifles again. I never actually heard of a specific chief that got themselves bound up but a local dealer stated one chief near us brought in their M14 and tried to trade it in. The dealer had to "check" to see if that was okay and found out it was forbidden. "Gee, I'm a regular Type 1 FFL, I wonder if I can purchase and possess FA?" He's really up on his stuff.
I did the paperwork for our two rifles and there were receipts included with each. The Colt M16A1 cost $446 and the Winchester M14 cost $138 when purchased by the gov't.
As a side note, 1911A1s were available one for every officer/deputy, again, at that time, not sure where it's at now.
Ah the old DD Form 1574!
Thanks for sharing the pics. Always cool to see older rifles like that.
I had a few great guys donate some parts to the M16 project.
Thanks Roger for the Battle Arms Development M16 safety.
Thanks Mark from Percision Firearms for the Daniel Defense and Magpul parts.
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010276.jpg
None of the parts showed any signs of use...
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010280.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010278.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010288.jpg
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/M%2016/P1010283.jpg
I put my 10.3 upper on the M16 lower. It was quite controllable with the AAC Breakout.
I used my own ammo for this Irish :p
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/th_bb3a86ea.jpg (http://s1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/?action=view¤t=bb3a86ea.mp4)
I put my 10.3 upper on the M16 lower. It was quite controllable with the AAC Breakout.
I used my own ammo for this Irish :p
http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/CoryCop25/Videos/bb3a86ea.mp4
Your video's not working. :jester:
Your video's not working. :jester:
I'm bad enough with a computer let alone trying to send it from my iPhone. It's up now.
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