Taper Crimping your Carry Ammo and "Murphy's Law"

[toddackerman]

About 28 years ago, I was involved in IPSC quite heavily, and was surrounded by many shooters from Gunsite. One particular instructor who taught there "Seasonally" gave me some advice that that I remember clearly, but didn't necessarily heed. The advice was....

"Taper Crimp your factory carry ammo, because there is a chance that on ejection, the spent case "Head" could catch on the case mouth "Rim" of the top round in the Mag., causing enough resistance that the extractor claw will rip right through the spent case rim causing a bad FTE."

Because 99.9% of the 100,000 rounds I have fired have been my Dillon reloads, I always taper crimped "robustly", but never took the sage advice of my Gunsite instructor friend to Taper Crimp my factory SD rounds before deploying them.

Well, as many of you know, I am starting to play around with new Mag., Follower, and spring combo's (because my SHTF Mags. are worn out). Experimenting with Wilson ETM's and Tripp "Super 7 Upgrade Kits" etc. I received my Tripp upgrades last week, and got to try them in my older Wilson 7round #47 Mags today. The springs are very "Stout" from Tripp! At least twice as stiff as the traditional Wilson #47 Mag. springs. I mention this as a side note to keep in mind as my saga continues....

As "Murphy would have it, I experienced my first FTE today in my current 1911 that has around 10,000 rounds on it with NO ISSUES. The cause....the ejected round case head hung up on the case neck of the top round in the mag. and the extractor ripped a piece of the ejected case head out, and left the case in the chamber area. After analyzing the situation, it was VERY apparent from the ejected case being ripped "inside" the case head at 3:00, and the "outside" of the same ejected case being "gouged" at 6:00 that the "Old Man's" advice hit home.

I never really thought this could/ would happen which is why I haven't taper crimped my factory ammo. Maybe the extra Tripp Mag spring tension has something to do with it...I dunno. But, needless to say, I taper crimped 400 rounds of 230 Gn. Ball this afternoon and returned it t my SHTF stash.

Any thoughts?

[jmart]

Try a more conventional spring.

Really. If you are going to go through the hassle of crimping factory ammo, you might as well reload.

[Trim2L]

Any thoughts?

It is not true. The slide keeps the first round in the magazine below the extracting cartridge until after the empty case has already been pull from the chamber. The gouge is probably from feeding.

[ST911]

Any thoughts?

A pistol that required such action for reliable function with factory loaded defensive ammunition seems to need a fix. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Such a gun wouldn't be found in my holster, much less in my collection.

[jmart]

A pistol that required such action for reliable function with factory loaded defensive ammunition seems to need a fix. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Such a gun wouldn't be found in my holster, much less in my collection.

[vincent vega]That's a BOLD statement![/vincent vega]

[toddackerman]

A pistol that required such action for reliable function with factory loaded defensive ammunition seems to need a fix. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Such a gun wouldn't be found in my holster, much less in my collection.

Yeah...very bold!


Well...like I said it has 10,000 rounds on it without fail until this ONE incident. It could be the new Mag spring. There were no other issues in the 250 rounds tested with this Mag. Have you ever shot that many rounds through one gun without fail?

Also, this is a machine, and machines can and do malfunction once in awhile, which is why we practice drills.

[toddackerman]

It is not true. The slide keeps the first round in the magazine below the extracting cartridge until after the empty case has already been pull from the chamber. The gouge is probably from feeding.

Well the gouge on the INSIDE of the case head is from the extractor ripping past it. That's the only thing that contacts the case inside the rim. I have increased the tension on the extractor at the range when it happened, and it didn't happen again. The gouge on the bottom (6:00) is too small to be from the bottom of the slide engaging the top round upon going into battery. It's more like a small "nick". But the combination of the 3:00 inside gouge and 6:00 outside gouge on the spent case still leads me to be believe that somehow it met resistance coming out and created the FTE. Clearly the extractor slipped past the rim.

I'll do some manual testing to see exactly when the case head passes the top round case mouth to see if you're right about the slide keeping it below the point we're discussing. Thanks for the input.

[toddackerman]

Try a more conventional spring.

Really. If you are going to go through the hassle of crimping factory ammo, you might as well reload.

JMART...Please read my post. I already reload a bunch! We just have to see if this argument ha credibility. I'll do some manual tests today to see if what I described is possible. I have also increased the extractor tension at the range, and didnlt have any other issue. Of course....I never had ANY issues over 10,000 rounds with this gun. The only NEW part of the equation was the introduction of the Tripp "Super 7" follower and VERY STRONG Mag spring.

[Trim2L]

Well the gouge on the INSIDE of the case head is from the extractor ripping past it. That's the only thing that contacts the case inside the rim. I have increased the tension on the extractor at the range when it happened, and it didn't happen again. The gouge on the bottom (6:00) is too small to be from the bottom of the slide engaging the top round upon going into battery. It's more like a small "nick". But the combination of the 3:00 inside gouge and 6:00 outside gouge on the spent case still leads me to be believe that somehow it met resistance coming out and created the FTE. Clearly the extractor slipped past the rim.

I'll do some manual testing to see exactly when the case head passes the top round case mouth to see if you're right about the slide keeping it below the point we're discussing. Thanks for the input.

The slide holds the top round in the magazine well below the extracting case so they can not contact each other. It sounds to me like you have some sort of mechanical failure, what kind of pistol is it?

[toddackerman]

The slide holds the top round in the magazine well below the extracting case so they can not contact each other. It sounds to me like you have some sort of mechanical failure, what kind of pistol is it?

It's a Colt Series 70 1911 with proper Ramp and Throat, Relieved ejection port, Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor and Ejector, Ed Brown Slide Stop, stock thumb safety, barrel etc. that has been flawless until this only incident.

Guys...I'm pretty sure it's not the gun, but possibly the Mag. Spring Tension. That's the ONLY change that was made.

If it's a "Mechanical Failure" what could it be other than a weak extractor that has now been tightened a bit? BTW...the Extractor Claw is not worn.

Again...I think that this is just one of those failures that was due to come along after 10,000 rounds.

I'm going to talk to Hilton Yam about it today and see what he says. I want to talk to Virgil Tripp about it as well.

Thanks for the replies!

[ST911]

Yeah...very bold!

I'm familar with many of the recommended tweaks to get 1911s to run properly with wider ranges of ammo. I've not encountered this before.

In my mind, one shouldn't need to tweak ammo in this way to get it to function. Much less premium defensive ammunition, which should be as expertly manufactured as anything. That seems to be a gun problem.

I don't own such guns. I like to take mine out of boxes, stuff them with bullets, and be troubled only by refilling them, ala G21.

Educate me. Like I said, perhaps I'm missing something.

[jmart]

.... Much less premium defensive ammunition, which should be as expertly manufactured as anything....

You'd think so, but it ain't always the case.

[toddackerman]

I'm familar with many of the recommended tweaks to get 1911s to run properly with wider ranges of ammo. I've not encountered this before.

In my mind, one shouldn't need to tweak ammo in this way to get it to function. Much less premium defensive ammunition, which should be as expertly manufactured as anything. That seems to be a gun problem.

I don't own such guns. I like to take mine out of boxes, stuff them with bullets, and be troubled only by refilling them, ala G21.

Educate me. Like I said, perhaps I'm missing something.

I've never encountered this problem before, so for now we're trying to diagnose it. Remember that this is something that was suggested to me 30 years ago, and it might be total BS. There might not be a cause that we can replicate. Kind of like when your car only "Pings" until you take it to the mechanic.

BTW...I've had 2 Glocks that FTE'd on occasion, so it's not an isolated 1911 issue.

I'm inquiring with Hilton Yam and Tim Lau on the 10-8 forum to see what they think. I'll let everyone know if they believe this situation and it's "guessed at" cause are even possible.

[toddackerman]

I just talked with Virgil Tripp from Tripp research. For those of you who don;t know Virgil, he is a truly "Good Guy" in the industry and one of the most knowledgeable on Mags.

To make a long story short, Virgil hasn't heard of the ejected case head contacting the top round case mouth in the Mag, but said that when the extractor slips off...everything becomes a train wreck.

After talking, and going over the ignition, extraction, ejection, and feeding scenarios 3 times, I suggested that the 6:00 "Ding" on the top round in the Mag case head could have come from the "Train Wreck" when a Class III "Double Feed" started to occur with the extractor jumping off the case head, and the top round in the Mag being jammed up into the unejected round in the chamber area (the top round rim against the ejected round case head edge), and THAT's when the "gouge' on the outside of the rim of the ejected case at 6:00 occurred. Sorry this is so "Wordy".

Virgil thought that this was much more likely. Brilliant!