View Full Version : Why NOT 300blk
dmaxfireman
02-09-12, 10:28
OK, so I sucked it up and bought a pre ban lower to keep my options 100% open for my next build. Now while I am putting together the cash for the upper I am reading about the 300blk that I want to build.
Seems like a lot of people love it and a lot of people hate it. I am having trouble figuring out why people do not like it aside from the cost. So before I drop the coin a build myself a 300blk upper tell me why I should or shouldn't.
Leaning towards a KISS carbine A1 upper with A2 aperture 16" with removable flash hider, and maybe a TA45 red triangle ACOG
Advantage - lower cost than other alternative cartridges.
Disadvantage - bullets function best within 300 yards - not optimum for long range.
Is this going to be your only AR, or one of many? It appears that you own others, so the question should be "WHY?" not "WHY NOT?" and should answer itself pretty readily. What requirement are your current ARs not meeting that the 300 would meet, and meet better than other "alternative cartridges"?
If you're like most AR owners the goal is to have as many as possible in the safe, and the acquisition is the "fun", in which case all the "why nots" in the world do not matter. It will meet those criteria:
1) you will have more ARs
2) you will get to "build" it
Seems like a lot of people love it and a lot of people hate it.
I haven't heard of anyone who hates it.... But I agree that you'd want to ask yourself WHY?... not WHY NOT?
Hot Holster
02-09-12, 10:51
The people that I know who have 300 BLK's, some have had problems, others have not. My 300 won't cycle subsonics unsuppressed which is a slight disappointment but not a major calamity because my main intentions were to use supersonics the majority of the time anyway.
So rather than it being hate, I think the word is disappointing to some owners, being that their expectations are not being met. Once the bugs are worked out they'll be happy campers.
My 300 won't cycle subsonics unsuppressed which is a slight disappointment but not a major calamity because my main intentions were to use supersonics the majority of the time anyway.
What setup do you have which is producing issues for you? Which upper in particular?
dmaxfireman
02-09-12, 11:11
I already have a 16" 5.56 carbine. Long range is not a concern, have a 24" 5.56 varmint ar and 308 rem700. I want this to be my primary go-to gun aside from my CCW, simple and lightweight for hunting, HD, etc. I already reload .223 and .308 so brass, primers, bullets are all on hand already. Am I asking too much for this caliber or am I missing anything. I don't forsee ever needing this past 100-150yds.
I haven't heard of anyone who hates it....
The fans of the round are doing a good job of painting anyone who questions it's utility, or why they actually want it, as a "hater". Common debate technique of attempting to make your opponent look crazy when you run out of (or never stated with) and facts or answers to their questions. See also "ad hominem".
The people that I know who have 300 BLK's, some have had problems, others have not. My 300 won't cycle subsonics unsuppressed which is a slight disappointment but not a major calamity because my main intentions were to use supersonics the majority of the time anyway.
That was an decision of the company who made your barrel - I know you know this, but for the benefit of new people, not a limitation of the cartridge.
Some people care about subsonic unsurpassed, most people do not and don't see why if you had no suppressor would you choose to shoot more expensive and less effective ammo.
The flip side of the debate is - I may happen to have a subsonic round in my chamber and want it to work even if I have no can. Or I have permission to shoot low-velocity ammo at an indoor range that won't normally allow centerfire rifle.
I already have a 16" 5.56 carbine. Long range is not a concern, have a 24" 5.56 varmint ar and 308 rem700. I want this to be my primary go-to gun aside from my CCW, simple and lightweight for hunting, HD, etc. I already reload .223 and .308 so brass, primers, bullets are all on hand already. Am I asking too much for this caliber or am I missing anything. I don't forsee ever needing this past 100-150yds.
So it sounds like you just want it to want it, which is fine, but again what is your 16", or an SBR in 5.56, not doing or can't do that the 300 can or will? How many of the projectiles you have on hand for .308 are usable in 300? How many projectiles that you buy for the 300 will be usable with the .308?
It seems that the most common answer to this is "well, duh, it has a bigger/heavier projectile" but few seem to have the ability to expound on what that really means, why it's a good thing (or a necessary thing) for their application, or how that negates any downsides to it. Or why you'd want to limit yourself to the acceptable/useful range (which I think is right in line with the low end of what you mention) when other rounds can be more effectively employed at longer ranges.
The Barnes 300 BLK ammo does do well on intimidate barrier ballistic tests.
dmaxfireman
02-09-12, 11:26
rob s
That is the short-long, I am attracted by bigger projectile and more energy. Sort of like 9mm vs 45acp.
The fans of the round are doing a good job of painting anyone who questions it's utility, or why they actually want it, as a "hater". Common debate technique of attempting to make your opponent look crazy when you run out of (or never stated with) and facts or answers to their questions. See also "ad hominem".
Combine this with a few of the moderators here who appear to be part of the conspiracy..... and it feels like this site's credibility is going the way of ARFcom. :(
Not sure why anyone would buy/build anything other than a SBR using 300BLK.
I'm still scratching my head at the marketing machine that has been done on a cartridge that fills such a narrow niche.
anarchocap
02-09-12, 11:42
Just to add a couple of more +/-:
+
Bigger hole
More energy than 5.56 to 300 yards.
ALL components except barrel are the same as 5.56.
Made for 16" or less barrel performance.
It is now a SAAMI round.
The Freedom Group, Inc. has bought into the round, and you have a large firearms manufacturing base ramping up production of 300 BLK products and ammunition.
Subsonic energy and suppression better than MP5.
-
Currently limited product availability.
Twist rates are in flux.
Currently more expensive to build and shoot than 5.56.
Like someone else said, what are you going to do with it?
I think it's an exciting development. It has a whole lot of potential for new and casual shooters as well as professionals. It also has the potential to really open up the SBR and suppressed markets to the average shooter.
I personally have the popcorn out for a little while longer until I see a better picture of where some of the negatives are going. I'm just a civvie who thinks 300 BLK is a decent improvement over 5.56 for self-defense and hopes it does well.
Combine this with a few of the moderators here who appear to be part of the conspiracy..... and it feels like this site's credibility is going the way of ARFcom. :(
Tin foil brother, just gotta keep the haters civil. In regards to that a couple seem to have an ax to grind over it for various reasons I suspect.
I simply got it to hunt with, mainly for my daughter to get started and have a light adjustable carbine with mild recoil. For the range we currently have, it's well within it's power range to take the game, why use more?
I did the same with the 6.8, have one as well and my son uses it and I got stuck with the old school bolt gun.
Could we get along without either one, sure we could, but we enjoy it and it's one more thing to do together.
keep the haters civil.
and there you go. "haters" vs. "fanboys"
:sarcastic:
Failure2Stop
02-09-12, 11:53
My interest in the 300BLK is for hunting.
Minimal change required to convert calibers.
I can then use essentially my GP AR for just about everything.
Combine this with a few of the moderators here who appear to be part of the conspiracy..... and it feels like this site's credibility is going the way of ARFcom. :(
Dude, what?
Tin foil brother
Heck yes! :p
George Noory was talking about it last night!
and there you go. "haters" vs. "fanboys"
:sarcastic:
I think there's only a few select true haters, I really haven't seen the fanboy causing issues.
I do agree that a few may be getting it just to have/want it. I don't see anything wrong with that either. I think we all could freely admit that we don't "need" a lot of what we have.
Combine this with a few of the moderators here who appear to be part of the conspiracy..... and it feels like this site's credibility is going the way of ARFcom. :(
Your off topic post in tech is directly contributing to this tech forum becoming like the site you reference.
How is this related to AR Variants/Beyond 5.56 tech talk again?
It's not.
So once again, stay on topic or refrain from posting.
By enforcing this simple site rule it helps keep it from becoming ARFCOM.
You've been here long enough to know how things work. Next time I have to message you about this, I'm taking it to staff, Im not babysitting adults in here.
I think there's only a few select true haters, I really haven't seen the fanboy causing issues.
The fanboy causes issues because he has no legitimate reason for what he's doing/buying and instead get antsy when asked. What he then calls a "hater" is really just a guy pointing out that all the fanboy is doing is stuffing the safe.
"not that there's anything wrong with that" but then why don't people just be honest about it? WTF is wrong with people that everything has to have a "need". Everything I buy has to have a purpose, but that's because I don't have money to throw around on guns to collect dust and guns to shoot. They all have to be guns that do something other than simply be owned.
I do agree that a few may be getting it just to have/want it. I don't see anything wrong with that either.
From what I've seen with ARs in general, and this caliber in particular, that number is way, WAY higher than what you're implying.
I think we all could freely admit that we don't "need" a lot of what we have.
Of course not, but that's uncool, to admit that you just want something, or that frankly the only reason you're into guns at all is to fill up a safe full of shit, so they make up reasons like "I need a subsonic suppressed carbine shooting a tungsten .30 cal projectile with >X" OAL for home defense!"
Seriously? :jester:
Which, so that I don't get my peepee spanked too for taking the counter-argument here, is why I asked the OP what he thinks his current gun, or the more common choice of 5.56 or .308, won't do that 300 is going to fix.
I ordered a Noveske 8" upper recently.
Why?
For me, I want a short short gun that will reliably cycle and stabilize the bullet for close range stuff. aka home defense. Having a shorter gun makes it more maneuverable and that alone is worth the price of admission for me.
I have no delusions of grandeur, I had the extra cash and I like to reload. Currently, 5.56 is cheaper for me to buy than reload, so I don't reload it as much anymore and the 300 BLK will give me a good reason to turn on the radio, sit in the man cave and do something I find relaxing.
As an added bonus... I just think it's freakin' cool!
robs, Look, All of us are "fanboy's" and have items we don't need and we all get "excited" about certain things, especially new to the market items.
The big thing is, nobody here needs to justify their purchases to you or anyone here, regardless of what they buy. Sure we may scoff at what some things people buy, but if you don't like it, leave it be.
I'm open to legitimate questions people may have, but the constant questioning and jabs to whoever here over this caliber in particular has got to stop.
Besides why wouldn't we want this new product to succeed? It's good for the industry and all of the entities that support it.
To all--Let's all just calm down and stop the silliness, I'm over it. If you have nothing constructive to say or have a legitimate non-argumentative question, than simply be quiet.
I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying.
Nobody owes me an explanation, and I didn't say they did. But we would hope, I think, that they are at least being honest with themselves and us in terms of what they want and why. If someone is asking for help or advice, the only way to give them help or advice of any use is to understand the truth as to why they want what they want. I couldn't care less if a guy just wants to fill his safe, and I keep saying so apparently to deaf ears, but it would be easier if he'd just say that to begin with so we'd know not to waste time answering frivolous questions, or giving advice based on applications that aren't really... applicable.
They are only "argumentative" questions when the other person can't answer them, or doesn't like the path the question takes the discussion down.
I'm not anti-300, I'm not a hater, I'm just a guy with over 1600 free rounds down the pipe that is still trying to figure out the point. So I ask questions of those that seem to have discovered a use, only to find that they don't really have much in the way of an answer. and to get called a "hater".
which takes me back to the questions of the OP. What does the 300 BLK do FOR HIM that the 5.56 doesn't? If one has determined to go with a 300, what won them over vs. a 6.x or other non-standard caliber? He asked "why NOT the 300?" and I simply replied with "why?" It's not argumentative, it's a legitimate question.
Rob_S - why are you so determined to make people justify their interest? That is just about exactly like asking anyone with a nice car what it does for them that a Honda Accord does not.
Do you press people who want an Omega Seamaster because a $30 Casio tells time well?
rob, I don't class you as a hater, just you tend to want people to justify their purchases. Even if they simply want to stuff their safe with the latest and greatest, what's the big deal?
He doesn't know what it does for him because he hasn't built it. I think he was more in a search for any information that helps him form his decisions on his future purchase. He has to decide what he wants from it and build it accordingly.
To the OP, my advice is if you want it for hunting, make it easy and pick a lightweight 16" upper. Decide if you want standard handguards or a Ff rail. Pick your optic of choice and have fun.
The support of 300 seems suspect (in some instances) as many are loving it without firing it or loving it after shooting their free case(s) of ammo through their free/loaner upper.
It does make sense to me in some limited applications, but so does the new modular Colt 7.62 gun.
The support of 300 seems suspect (in some instances) as many are loving it without firing it or loving it after shooting their free case(s) of ammo through their free/loaner upper.
It does make sense to me in some limited applications, but so does the new modular Colt 7.62 gun.
I wish I had free ammo!
Off topic post removed, if its not about the 300 BLK, pros, or cons or thoughts on the round, keep ancillary posts and other things out. It only serves to derail the tech discussion and is not part of this forum. IF you really need further clarification please message me. ~ Cold
Let's focus the question a bit- What, in a practical sense, does the 300BLK do that the 5.56 or the 308 does not? What are the terminal effects on target? Considering the original mission statement of this site, Rob asks a legitimate question.
Both rounds can be run suppressed. The added bonus is that sub-sonic ammunition has been developed for the 300. How large is that advantage? While the subsonic 300 is quieter when suppressed, does it put down the target as fast or faster? The answer isn't found in ft/lbs of energy, it's found in actual terminal performance.
The claimed usable range of 300 yards for the 300 BLK is both practical and conservative. It would rare for someone to take shots in self defense at that range and when hunting game such as deer, it's generally considered ethical to stalk closer before taking a shot for a humane kill. In my opinion, it's in hunting that the 300 BLK has a real advantage in terminal performance. With it's deeper penetration, the 300 BLK is more likely to deliver a one shot humane kill than the 5.56 on medium game and larger.
The 308, in comparison, is more powerful than needed for medium game at close range, has more recoil and a 308 AR is heavier and larger than the 5.56 version.
In reality, the 300 BLK is no more a wonder caliber than any other. It's ballistics approach light 30-30 loads. The AR has become the true inheritor of the lever action carbine legacy. Light, handy, low recoil, good capacity, simple to use, it's advantages out-weigh the limitations the AR places caliber choice. To be frank, if not for the popularity of the AR, the 300 BLK, like the Whisper and other attempts to neck up the 5.56 case to take a 30 caliber bullet, would remain a novelty.
The real advantage of the 300 BLK is that it offers deeper penetration on medium and larger game than the 5.56 with less recoil and weight than the 308 while offering good power and terminal effect at reasonable hunting ranges. I do not see where I would gain any advantage using the 300 over the 5.56 if bad guys broke into my domicile or if they came to molest us while we were enjoying the outdoors
Hot Holster
02-09-12, 13:16
What setup do you have which is producing issues for you? Which upper in particular?
A 16" CMMG, carbine length.
I've tried 3 different lowers and it still won't cycle the subs. It was suggested to go to an adjustable gas block but I don't know if I want to do anything right now.
Add: My use for the 300 BLK will be for hog hunting and some plinking at the range.
A 16" CMMG, carbine length.
I've tried 3 different lowers and it still won't cycle the subs. It was suggested to go to an adjustable gas block but I don't know if I want to do anything right now.
An adjustable gas block cannot make more gas, only less gas. Probably the gas port is just too small. If the gas port is not too small, then make sure you have a C buffer. If you have a C buffer, then make sure your action spring is a normal M4 one and not some "extra power" one. If that is all in spec, then make sure your barrel spring is normal and not an extra-power one. If all that checks out, then maybe leaky gas rings or carrier key.
Something that drew me to this website was knowledge of guns, gear and tactics. Something else that drew me to this website was the attitude of the senior members who wanted to improve (not just support) the AR shooting community - both in skill and mindset.
Questioning a new product that requires a shooter to spend more money on something that they are not going to get any additional capability out of, is exactly in line with that way of thinking. Mission drives the gear right? Well if your mission is to have fun and have a lot of guns, than buy whatever you want. If your mission is to compete, than you'd be best off by focusing on that. If your mission is LE/MIL, than you'd be best off by focusing on that. .300BLK may be a better choice for some of those things, it's up to the user to decide. Same with home defense, hunting, etc.
Nobody's saying you can't spend your money on X, but rob_s IS saying that spending money on a new product isn't going to do anything for you without a reason behind it. You'll be out hundreds of dollars or more, and not be any more capable than you were before. Even if you ARE more capable because you can now shoot a subsonic .30 caliber projectile, suppressed, from a super cool SBR - than what are you going to do with it that you can't do with a 5.56mm? Okay fine, maybe nothing, but if that's what you want to own and shoot, then that's fine too.
Fact is most shooters haven't handled .300BLK but they still think it's cool and super effective even though the caliber hasn't been out long everyone's talking about it with awe = fanboys. I'll admit that I've read alot about it here on M4C and it looks good but what am I going to do with it? Like what would I do with a .50 BMG? Or what would I do with an M1 Carbine? Everything that I want to do I already have a 5.56mm to use but if for some reason I develop a need to shoot a .30 subsonic suppressed load from a short barreled rifle, than I'd consider it before anything else. For things I can't do with a 5.56mm, I'd get another caliber, but why diversify if I don't have to?
I think the questions being asked are valid, especially since it's oriented towards using the OP's response to benefit him/her. It's not rob_s just picking on the person, he's trying to put things in a different perspective, and get the OP to look at the situation from another angle.
-----
Finally, to the OP: why not 300BLK?
Because it's still new, it can't do as well when shooting far away, it's slow, and unless you're going to suppress it then it's still loud.
I could give a rats ass about the 300 BLK one way or another. But, here is my thought.
We all know that we can hit stuff at 300, 400 and 500 meters with a 5.56 SBR. What we don't know (for lack of real world incidents) is just how effective it is against people.
Along comes a caliber that according the sources and stats is alleged to be as effective as 5.56 out to a certain range and yet can still be suppressed effectively.
It seems to me that with the minimal cost involved (barrel) one could conceivably have an SBR that is able to be suppressed and yet is still effective.
So if that is what someone wants why all the hate and poo poo? Is it a niche item? Maybe. Maybe it will also lead to some other developments down the road. If the ammo prices come in line with 5.56 or close I may even decide to give it a shot as a dedicated suppressed SBR.
I want a 300 upper because I'd like something on the AR platform that cycles subsonic factory available ammo suppressed.
But I need to get a can first.
dmaxfireman
02-09-12, 14:11
OK after some though on how to word this here goes.
My 16" 5.56 is great, I like it. But in Connecticut I cannot hunt with it, so aside from my rem700 308 (which is set up as a range gun and way to heavy to practically hunt with) I do not have another caliber that I can use for rifle season at my friends hunting land. Now if I build this upper I would like it to become my primary rifle for familiarity, and muscle memory. Also I cannot hunt with a suppressor in CT.
Like stated above if this is a hunting / defense rifle, a hunting shot in the woods would probably never be over 100-150 yards. And for defense in the fair majority of cases if I were to take a shot in self defense over 10-15yards I would have bigger problems.
SO, can anybody tell me that the 300blk will not perform as well as a 5.56 in either of those situations or be not as "reliable". I am not talking about getting rid of my 5.56 all together just putting it in the safe, it has its place and in December this year for all you conspiracy theorists there will still be ammo to be found :rolleyes:.
Did not mean to stir the pot, I'm still new here and trying to learn.
Thanks for all the help everybody.
I'm interested in the .300 BLK and feel that eventually I will get one down the road.
What I'm concerned with using such a round is that I feel that it would make a decent deer hunting round out to a decent distance of 200 to 250 yards. Also some day maybe a suppressor will find its way home to me and then shoot sub sonics just for some recreational fun. Those would be my goals with it.
Now, someone engaged in door kicking might find a more legit use for it, especially suppressed and that is where it would prove very useful, in close quarters and spitting distances.
Hmmm....
I get to test and review the terminal ballistics of a lot of cartridges.
At ranges around 300 and in, .300 BLK is a useful alternative to 5.56 mm for folks using SBR's and suppressors, it has advantages over 5.56 mm for punching through intermediate barriers that are commonly present in LE OIS incidents, and is superior to 5.56 mm for those that wish to hunt medium size game with an AR15.
I would not recommend .300 BLK for a first AR15, but it can add versatility for someone already possessing a 5.56 mm AR15. When using barrels over 16" while punching paper, plinking, hunting varmints, or high round count training, 5.56 mm/.223 offers advantages over .300 BLK.
Hmmm....
I get to test and review the terminal ballistics of a lot of cartridges.
At ranges around 300 and in, .300 BLK is a useful alternative to 5.56 mm for folks using SBR's and suppressors, it has advantages over 5.56 mm for punching through intermediate barriers that are commonly present in LE OIS incidents, and is superior to 5.56 mm for those that wish to hunt medium size game with an AR15.
I would not recommend .300 BLK for a first AR15, but it can add versatility for someone already possessing a 5.56 mm AR15. When using barrels over 16" while punching paper, plinking, hunting varmints, or high round count training, 5.56 mm/.223 offers advantages over .300 BLK.
Why not recommend it as a first AR? I mean if the individual has got the money to play with ----> my advice is to go for it.
:big_boss:
My friend is in the process of buying Noveske's 8 inch LoPro in 300 BLK. He is buying it as a home defense as well as a car rifle. He works in the computer industry and has to drive to locations in the city that are in some shitty neighborhoods. A 8 inch AR with an effective round would make a pretty good tight quarters weapon. I have said before I think the 300 BLK is the best PDW on the market.
I further believe that a short SBR, 8 or 9 inch barrel, would make a great home defense weapon. It would be shorter than a Mk18 and arguably more effective.
Microalign
02-09-12, 19:53
Hmmm....
I get to test and review the terminal ballistics of a lot of cartridges.
At ranges around 300 and in, .300 BLK is a useful alternative to 5.56 mm for folks using SBR's and suppressors, it has advantages over 5.56 mm for punching through intermediate barriers that are commonly present in LE OIS incidents, and is superior to 5.56 mm for those that wish to hunt medium size game with an AR15.
I would not recommend .300 BLK for a first AR15, but it can add versatility for someone already possessing a 5.56 mm AR15. When using barrels over 16" while punching paper, plinking, hunting varmints, or high round count training, 5.56 mm/.223 offers advantages over .300 BLK.
Looks like a pretty logical rational. I don't see myself investing in SBRs or suppressors, so I don't see much need for the 300blk for my needs. Since anything outside of 5.56, 5.45, 7.62, and .308 is a reloader's market, I'd rather just stick with the 6.8 SPC and have better than 5.56 terminal effects, barrier penetration, and longer ranged capability.
My friend is in the process of buying Noveske's 8 inch LoPro in 300 BLK. He is buying it as a home defense as well as a car rifle. He works in the computer industry and has to drive to locations in the city that are in some shitty neighborhoods. A 8 inch AR with an effective round would make a pretty good tight quarters weapon. I have said before I think the 300 BLK is the best PDW on the market.
I further believe that a short SBR, 8 or 9 inch barrel, would make a great home defense weapon. It would be shorter than a Mk18 and arguably more effective.
Totally Agree! My little bitty 300BLK Noveske is so light. Feels and handles like a 2 handed pistol.
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2861/noveske3001edited.jpg
Do you press people who want an Omega Seamaster because a $30 Casio tells time well?
The Casio will keep better time, but the Omega will get you laid more. 5.56 might be more utilitarian, but 300BLK makes the lady's wet.
Timberwolf
02-09-12, 20:45
Combine this with a few of the moderators here who appear to be part of the conspiracy..... and it feels like this site's credibility is going the way of ARFcom. :(
Given your infantile and pathetic ranting when it comes to LWRC, I find this post amusing.
In the interest of keeping my post relevant, I do have a question: Is there any point to this caliber for people living in a communist state like myself (Illinois) who can have neither SBRs or suppressors?
Is there any point to this caliber for people living in a communist state like myself (Illinois) who can have neither SBRs or suppressors?
Well... to be honest you are taking away the 2 best qualities of this platform.
I suggest you move immediately. :D
In the interest of keeping my post relevant, I do have a question: Is there any point to this caliber for people living in a communist state like myself (Illinois) who can have neither SBRs or suppressors?
In places which ban new normal capacity magazines, 300 BLK is good because it works with pre-ban 5.56mm mags.
Timberwolf
02-09-12, 21:16
Well... to be honest you are taking away the 2 best qualities of this platform.
I suggest you move immediately. :D
If only I could move...I would have done so already.
As for pre-ban mags (@rsilvers)--that's oddly not an issue here.
I do not recommend a .300 BLK as a first AR15 due to the current prevalence of 5.56 mm/.223 ammo compared to .300 BLK--being able to train more often is very important.
I am all for 6.8 mm and have used it since 2002; 6.8 mm offers better terminal performance and longer range than .300 BLK. However, as rsilvers accurately points out, for individuals or agencies that are already invested in 5.56 mm mags, then the .300 BLK makes very good sense for the roles I previously outlined at ranges of 300 or so and closer:
-- SBR's and suppressors
-- Defeating intermediate barriers that are commonly present in LE OIS incidents
-- Hunting medium size game with an AR15
At longer ranges and with larger/tougher targets, I'd go with 6.8 mm in an AR15 or better yet, .308 in one of the new 16" semi-autos.
Hot Holster
02-09-12, 21:41
An adjustable gas block cannot make more gas, only less gas. Probably the gas port is just too small. If the gas port is not too small, then make sure you have a C buffer. If you have a C buffer, then make sure your action spring is a normal M4 one and not some "extra power" one. If that is all in spec, then make sure your barrel spring is normal and not an extra-power one. If all that checks out, then maybe leaky gas rings or carrier key.
Thanks for the tips. I was hoping by trying the three other lowers I would have one that cycled the subs.
One was a S&W M&P buffer, spring and BCG, the next was a PSA buffer and spring w/PSA BCG, the last was from Surplus Arms, unknown what brand buffer and spring and a SAA BCG.
The main unit is a Spikes BCG with a PSA buffer and spring. Screws are tight and staked, key feels secure. I did not order the H buffer extra so I'm guessing I received the normal carbine spring.
I'll play around a bit with other buffers and springs when I can and see if I can come up with a fix.
If it turns out to be too small of a gas port, would it be worth having it opened up a bit more?
In the interest of keeping my post relevant, I do have a question: Is there any point to this caliber for people living in a communist state like myself (Illinois) who can have neither SBRs or suppressors?
Yes. People buy 16" 6.8 rifles without silencers, for better hunting, barrier and terminal performance than 5.56.
A 16" 300 BLK without a silencer also offers better hunting, barrier and terminal performance than the 5.56.
Both have some plus and minus marks depending on your needs/wants, or you may be better off just buying a case of BH 50gr TSX for your 5.56.
Rob_S - why are you so determined to make people justify their interest? That is just about exactly like asking anyone with a nice car what it does for them that a Honda Accord does not.
Do you press people who want an Omega Seamaster because a $30 Casio tells time well?
Yes, I ask these questions all the time. and evidently you're still missing the point (which I know is not the case, but more a case of you choosing to misrepresent the point to further your interests), which is not having them "justify" but simply to have them explain it to me. I ask questions all the time, both within the shooting community and outside it, when I don't understand something. Especially when I've done my own evaluation and come to a different conclusion, or when it appears that there really isn't any rational explanation and I just want to hear them say it so I can move on and discount them as a reliable source.
I feel sorry for those people that never question anything, reverse-engineer their "needs", and simply buy into whatever well-placed and well-engineered marketing hype they are presented with.
I love the *idea* of the 300, but the features keep getting slimmer, the benefits keep getting fewer, and I still can't figure out what it's for. and rather than explain what it's for, people would prefer to resort to ad hominem instead. and I'm smart enough to know which ones do it intentionally and which ones simply knee-jerk react to a question they find they can't answer.
Hence, to keep this on track, my questions to the OP as to what he thinks (not feels, thinks) his current selections aren't doing, how he thinks the 300 solves those problems, and his take on the down sides. I keep (vainly, evidently) hoping that somebody can answer those questions one day without making it about me, or the question. I *want* a 300 too, but unlike most other people I can't afford to just buy every gun I *want*, I have to find an application to justify (to myself, not anyone else) the displaced ammo budget. In other words, is $2k spent on a 300 rifle more valuable than $2k worth of ammo and training with the 5.56?
I love the *idea* of the 300, but the features keep getting slimmer, the benefits keep getting fewer, and I still can't figure out what it's for.
See the post above:
However, as rsilvers accurately points out, for individuals or agencies that are already invested in 5.56 mm mags, then the .300 BLK makes very good sense for the roles I previously outlined at ranges of 300 or so and closer:
-- SBR's and suppressors
-- Defeating intermediate barriers that are commonly present in LE OIS incidents
-- Hunting medium size game with an AR15
Yes. People buy 16" 6.8 rifles without silencers, for better hunting, barrier and terminal performance than 5.56.
A 16" 300 BLK without a silencer also offers better hunting, barrier and terminal performance than the 5.56.
Both have some plus and minus marks depending on your needs/wants, or you may be better off just buying a case of BH 50gr TSX for your 5.56.
I was looking at using a 14.5 pinned barrel with a SDN6. Would this make a decent combination and get good performance?
SomeOtherGuy
02-10-12, 12:56
I love the *idea* of the 300, but the features keep getting slimmer, the benefits keep getting fewer, and I still can't figure out what it's for. and rather than explain what it's for, people would prefer to resort to ad hominem instead. and I'm smart enough to know which ones do it intentionally and which ones simply knee-jerk react to a question they find they can't answer.
Can you state specifically what you mean by "the features keep getting slimmer, the benefits keep getting fewer"?
All I've seen is that the bullet weight and velocity for the relatively inexpensive UMC ammo has changed since the plans a year ago. I haven't seen much else change.
wileecoyote
02-11-12, 13:22
Not sure why rob_s has such hate for the cartridge, but to each his own. I'm just looking at facts and don't have any personal predisposition. In my line of work things change very rapidly, so as a necessity I have to honestly reassess the landscape all the time. To me this is no different.
I'm looking at the facts:
1. For a given barrel length up to 16" 300 BLK has more energy out to 300 yards than a 5.56
2. It can launch at minimum a 110\125 gr bullet at something versus a much smaller 5.56 bullet and deliver 15-20% more energy
3. The extra weight should help with wind deflection
4. It's in in the same size platform\package as a 5.56
5. Comparing just energy one can go with a shorter barrel than a comparable 5.56
6. It has less muzzle flash
7. It is more accomodating for supression (which doesn't really matter to me but does to others, adding to its versatility)
8. It is superior against barriers
9. It is superior against medium size game
10. On top of it all it is compatible with every 5.56 part other than the barrel itself
Downsides vs 5.56
1. More recoil
2. Worse trajectory
3. More expensive ammo (but now UMC is pretty cheap)
4. Fewer ammo choices
5. Fewer manufacturer choices but this seems to be changing rapidly, particulary among top tier mfgs
6. For MIL\LE CQB shoothouse training could be an issue.
7. Incompatible with existing ballistic reticles
So I would ask, anyone that doesn't see the value of 300 BLK, can they refute the above points? If so I am open to the discussion and would be interested to see where I am off.
However if you can't refute the above, then you have a pretty strong set of attributes for someone looking for an effective cartridge out to 300 yards. Which for me is plenty far, more so than I'd ever need. And yes it costs more. But if you don't want to pay there is a very easy solution, don't buy it. To me the facts point to much more than marketing hype.
Lastly, for those that disagree, often times when arguing a point I find it best to invert the argument. So I would pose the question, what does 5.56 do better than 300 BLK?
Edit: not really directing this solely at rob_s but he seems to represent the opposing opinion.
Not sure why rob_s has such hate for the cartridge, but to each his own. I'm just looking at facts and don't have any personal predisposition. In my line of work things change very rapidly, so as a necessity I have to honestly reassess the landscape all the time. To me this is no different.
I'm looking at the facts:
1. For a given barrel length up to 16" 300 BLK has more energy out to 300 yards than a 5.56
2. It can launch at minimum a 110\125 gr bullet at something versus a much smaller 5.56 bullet and deliver 15-20% more energy
3. The extra weight should help with wind deflection
4. It's in in the same size platform\package as a 5.56
5. Comparing just energy one can go with a shorter barrel than a comparable 5.56
6. It has less muzzle flash.
6. It is more accomodating for supression (which doesn't really matter to me but does to others, adding to its versatility)
7. It is superior against barriers
8. It is superior against medium size game
9. On top of it all it is compatible with every 5.56 part other than the barrel itself
Downsides vs 5.56
1. More recoil
2. Worse trajectory
3. More expensive ammo
4. Fewer ammo choices
5. Fewer manufacturer choices but this seems to be changing rapidly, particulary among top tier mfgs
6. For MIL\LE CQB shoothouse training could be an issue.
7. Incompatible with existing ballistic reticles
So I would ask, anyone that doesn't see the value of 300 BLK, can they refute the above points? If so I am open to the discussion and would be interested to see where I am off.
However if you can't refute the above, then you have a pretty strong set of attributes for someone looking for an effective cartridge out to 300 yards. Which for me is plenty far, more so than I'd ever need. And yes it costs more. But if you don't want to pay there is a very easy solution, don't buy it. To me the facts point to much more than marketing hype.
Lastly, for those that disagree, often times when arguing a point I find it best to invert the argument. So I would pose the question, what does 5.56 do better than 300 BLK?
This is a very well thought out post.
For shoot houses, Barnes has RRLP (jacketed frangible) ammo.
It is worth SBRing because the cartridge is effective from even 6 inch barrels. You may have seen my 9 inch Barnes bullet expanded at 300 yards (image below). Well, it would look the same from a 6 inch barrel at 200 yards. That is amazing.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/files/2012/01/300BLK-300-small-500x336.jpg
But 16 inches makes a lot of sense also - as it surpasses a 20 inch 5.56mm - which we all know is really what a 5.56mm should have for a barrel.
And a 9 inch matches an M4 (14.5 inch).
"300 BLK: 6 - 8 inches of barrel for free"
wileecoyote
That about somes it up quite nicely!:D
leupold has a VX-R ret for the 300blk.
have shot mine supressed...never noticed recoil to amount to anything.
By Mr. Silver's own numbers posts here on M4C, the 300 Blackout has nearly 6.8 recoil. Can anyone comment on follow-up shots for supersonic 300 Blackout loads (ie, the kind we'd use for personal defense)?
-B
dmaxfireman
02-12-12, 01:12
I am sold on it now. Thanks for the push over the edge everybody. Setup my brass trimmer today and will hopefully have my dies early this week. Then just wait for the tax refund and start building the upper.
NCPatrolAR
02-12-12, 08:06
I'm going to close this now. The OP has gotten his answers and made his decision based on the information presented
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