View Full Version : How do I stop a friend...
TeamGrazzi
02-09-12, 14:39
Ok so I have a problem... I have a few very good friends that just won't listen when I try to lead them tword more information and a better selection of quality weapons. How do I educate them without sounding like an ass?
Raven Armament
02-09-12, 14:41
If they won't learn the easy way, let them learn the hard way.
TeamGrazzi
02-09-12, 14:49
I am just worried that the "hard way" lesson will be learned when they need to rely on the weapons they have decided to put their lives in the hands of.
deadlyfire
02-09-12, 14:52
I am just worried that the "hard way" lesson will be learned when they need to rely on the weapons they have decided to put their lives in the hands of.
Are your friends MIL/LE or friends looking for prospective CCW weapons?
DeltaSierra
02-09-12, 15:01
Here is the best way to deal with this situation.
If your so-called "friends" don't respect you enough to listen to you, get new friends....
Simply point them to quality websites (like this one, and www.pistol-forum.com for example), teach 'em how to use the search function, and then let them come to their own conclusions...that way you're helpful, but not the bad guy-and your ego isn't on the line.
Best, Jon
Ok so I have a problem... I have a few very good friends that just won't listen when I try to lead them tword more information and a better selection of quality weapons. How do I educate them without sounding like an ass?
I have friends like this. For years, I suggested that they spend a bit more to get the best guns, sights, holsters, ammo, etc., but they still bought shit. When they tried my gear, to no one's surprise but theirs, it worked better. A couple of them are slowly coming around.
So if your friends can handle guns safely, let them buy what they want and take them to the range. Teach them what you can about shooting well and sound tactics. Outshoot them severely and often. They'll figure out the rest soon enough.
If they can't handle guns safely, find new friends.
Okie John
I have one friend like this. He wants to buy quality stuff, and sometimes does, but in the end, he usually goes with his "cheap" impulse first and foremost, and that pushes him into the wrong decision.
As was suggested, I don't think you will be able to convince anybody ultimately. You just point them to good info, say "it's your decision, it's your money," and let them make up their own mind. It's all you can do.
Ok so I have a problem... I have a few very good friends that just won't listen when I try to lead them tword more information and a better selection of quality weapons. How do I educate them without sounding like an ass?
You can't. If they're interested in your help the first time you offer it then good for them and you should help them out. If they're not then leave them to go waste their money on whatever they want to.
The one exception I make to this is Serpa holsters. My best friend and main training buddy was hearing good things about them from mutual friends who were serving in the Middle East, and was about to buy one.
I gave him a BladeTech--best $60 I ever spent.
Okie John
The one exception I make to this is Serpa holsters. My best friend and main training buddy was hearing good things about them from mutual friends who were serving in the Middle East, and was about to buy one.
I gave him a BladeTech--best $60 I ever spent.
Okie John
Yeah, I've done the same thing. When my brother in law wanted an AR, I pointed him here and tried to engage him about the differences. When he was going to buy a crappy one anyway, I paid for a BCM lower and upper for him.
Yeah, I've done the same thing. When my brother in law wanted an AR, I pointed him here and tried to engage him about the differences. When he was going to buy a crappy one anyway, I paid for a BCM lower and upper for him.
Can I be your brother-in-law?
Can I be your brother-in-law?
Not unless they legalize polygamy....
Not unless they legalize polygamy....
It never hurts to ask. :D
This is a tough situation, and I've been through it with friends and family. Not that I am an expert by any means, but I have identified sites like this one, and pinpointed the respected and knowledgeable members, and read and read and read and applied. Pursued the training recommended and applied.. rinse and repeat.
Trying to get others to do the same is tough sometimes.
I have a friend who I went through this with just recently... he wanted to get into shooting and buy a gun and holster etc for concealed carry. Wow he was hard headed. Emailed him links, URL's etc and he couldn't be bothered reading them. He picked himself up an XD, after all, the gun store clerk said it is basically and upgraded Glock.
It got even worse when he got into the police academy... good grief now he is a small arms expert and a self defense and combatives expert. I've been training martial arts since I was 8... don't know what the quality of firearms training is in most police academies, but the self defense, arrest and control techniques etc leave a lot to be desired. Anyways, I really hope a more seasoned officer with some savvy helps him out, he won't listen to me, especially now that I'm just a "civie".
TeamGrazzi
02-09-12, 16:22
They are not law enforcement or military just civi's. I tried to point them to this site for more information but they went and bought a Ruger LCP for CC use before I could get them to see the light. :cray:
Nephrology
02-09-12, 16:42
Been there done that.
When they ask advice, you give. When they ignore it, you laugh. They can only learn the hard way. Guns bring a LOT of ego to the table and people get very touchy. You can't cram your views down their throat, even if it probably would do them some good.
F-Trooper05
02-09-12, 16:48
They are not law enforcement or military just civi's. I tried to point them to this site for more information but they went and bought a Ruger LCP for CC use before I could get them to see the light. :cray:
Sounds exactly like my two best friends who are both Feds. I've pointed literally dozens of people I know to pistol-forum.com, which IMO is the single best message board regarding handgun info, period. Not one of them has ever taken a look at it. Oh well, ignorence is bliss.
Nephrology
02-09-12, 17:12
Sounds exactly like my two best friends who are both Feds. I've pointed literally dozens of people I know to pistol-forum.com, which IMO is the single best message board regarding handgun info, period. Not one of them has ever taken a look at it. Oh well, ignorence is bliss.
Thats OK. Invite them to an IPSC match and burn down the course of fire while they still struggle to draw their Taurus from their blackhawk SERPA. Then see how smug they are.
dirt_diver
02-09-12, 17:53
Thats OK. Invite them to an IPSC match and burn down the course of fire while they still struggle to draw their Taurus from their blackhawk SERPA. Then see how smug they are.
Assuming they don't shoot themselves first...:help:
There are those who will be unchangeable in "bad gun purchases" for various reasons. One group that I see being a lost cause is the "I took the CCW class and still do 50 rounds every so many years and own a gun that can (note: this is not will) go a full 2 magazines without failure (which is good because I hate bothering the range master with every malfunction, you know since I don't know what is happening or how to solve it) and can hit the man sized target at 21 feet half the time so I am ready" crowd since you have several issues to deal with.
For the most part though, if they are sensible, they can be guided. For one I think it has to viewed as guiding them which is you taking them and leading them towards good decisions and away from the bad ones, it might sound lame but if your in the mentality of schooling or teaching someone then you can often end up with resistance either because their ego is challenged, think your an ass, think your extreme, etc.
Figure out why they are choosing X item and lead them to Y with reasoning and logic, use their ego instead of challenging it, its a two way conversation not a lecture, you might be pulling the strings but design it so they think it was their decision, etc.
TeamGrazzi
02-09-12, 19:35
The odd thing is they are world class martial artists and do tons of research to find the best way to do this or that technique but with firearms... Very little. Maybe that is the way I need to approach this, compare it to what they know so maybe the light bulb will come on.
I tell you that is one thing I don't like about Chicago guns are the devil here so there isn't a lot of places you can go for knowledge and even fewer places for good training. When I was picking up my new M&P the clerk was telling the guy next to me that a Sig or Berreta was just as good as a Glock or HK.
Hogsgunwild
02-09-12, 20:06
Last year I was drinking at the hotel bar in Germany with five other gun enthusiast / co-workers. Two had Kimbers and three had XD-Ms.
It was painful being subtle. You just can't go from year one to year twenty or from A to Z in one (or several) conversations with those that are new to firearms. One FFDO (great guy all around) has an XD and preaches how great that one douche bag, "the Millionaire Patriot, Ignatius Piazza" is. So, so painful to hear / discuss. Newbies are attracted to XDs and Kimbers like flies to shit. Just keep your own pudding covered up from their flies and hope they learn.
I have a couple of really smart friends that actually learned at a rapid pace by using the internet and started out with quality / reliable guns like the Glock and bypassed all of the firearms marketing campaigns that suck so many in.
Just be happy you have friends that are into guns!!!
when it comes to stuff like guns, cars, watches, toys etc. guys usually like to buy whatever they feel like buying.
9/10, when someone is not "balls deep" in a hobby or activity, they take the usual perspective that shiny = better. which is why people love buying bushmaster ACR's and tac'd out deltons with tons of knock off lights/lazers and shit hanging off them.
people have to learn the hard way. let them buy the cheap flashy shit and figure out a couple thousand rounds down the line that they bought the wrong thing.
Hogsgunwild
02-09-12, 20:35
So true. I wish I had the internet when I was first into shooting (40 years ago?). It can save you money if you are patient, a good listener and good at deciphering BS. Otherwise you can bang your head against the wall and learn the hard way or hope you have experienced friends that can help you (and be smart enough to heed them).
Cesiumsponge
02-09-12, 20:40
when it comes to stuff like guns, cars, watches, toys etc. guys usually like to buy whatever they feel like buying.
9/10, when someone is not "balls deep" in a hobby or activity, they take the usual perspective that shiny = better. which is why people love buying bushmaster ACR's and tac'd out deltons with tons of knock off lights/lazers and shit hanging off them.
people have to learn the hard way. let them buy the cheap flashy shit and figure out a couple thousand rounds down the line that they bought the wrong thing.
The car world is even worse. People will drop $3k into a set of powder coated, polished "street suspension" package which is complete rubbish and rides like a rock while the same cash can get you fantastic track suspension that come with actual important data like force/velocity response dynos and a plush ride because of fantastic low speed rebound response. Seriously, folks with giant wings for "downforce" On FWD cars?! I'd take the retardation in the gun world over the retardation I see in the car world, any day.
This is a problem I'm sure we've all had to deal with a time or two. Ignorance won't allow people to enjoy the quality products we all know and love, they'd rather cheap out and buy the same product 3 times over. Let them try out your great gear and hopefully they learn how much time and money they've wasted on inferior products.
Be like
"Dude, these are top tier!"
"Dude, this exploded!"
Friends are smart so long as you help them be. . . well, some times...
ok that's a lie...
But I think you probably know some alright people.
OR introduce them to this forum, show them how to search topics.. stuff like that. It'll help them help themselves.
Alaskapopo
02-10-12, 01:20
Can I be your brother-in-law?
I feel like buying a DPMS could you save me from myself and get me a Noveske!:sarcastic:
Seriously your friends and family are lucky to have you.
Pat
I wish I would have had shooting friends that would have pushed me to get quality too. My first AR was a Douchmaster, and my second was a DPMS. Both of them were bought on the advice of a guy that works at my LGS that I've known for years. Boy was I a retard.
I finally started doing my own research and figured out how much money I wasted on both of those rifles. Now I have a Colt and I'm really happy with it, and eventually will pick up a Noveske, just because of all the good things I hear about them.
Man did I lose my ass for not doing research....
Idiots buy shit gear.
I do not make a point of making friends out of idiots.
Alaskapopo
02-10-12, 04:10
Idiots buy shit gear.
I do not make a point of making friends out of idiots.
Everyone has made an idiot move at one point in there life. I am not so shallow as to disown someone because they made a poor gear choice.:rolleyes:
David Thomas
02-10-12, 05:51
Thats OK. Invite them to an IPSC match and burn down the course of fire while they still struggle to draw their Taurus from their blackhawk SERPA. Then see how smug they are.
Bingo.
But it doesn't have to be a match. They may be too intimidated by a match. The key elements include a timer, a scoreable target, and an opportunity to shoot a better gun so that performance can be compared. Those three things have proven to a couple of friends of mine that their choice of handgun was not the right one and was limiting their performance. Funny how the Glock that "didn't fit their hand as good as brand xyz" was the gun that they shot better and faster with.
Nephrology
02-10-12, 06:56
Bingo.
But it doesn't have to be a match. They may be too intimidated by a match. The key elements include a timer, a scoreable target, and an opportunity to shoot a better gun so that performance can be compared. Those three things have proven to a couple of friends of mine that their choice of handgun was not the right one and was limiting their performance. Funny how the Glock that "didn't fit their hand as good as brand xyz" was the gun that they shot better and faster with.
I know a guy who has gone through literally DOZENS of pistols, including no less than FIVE glocks because "they dont fit his hand." Waah waah waah. He keeps selling them in hopes of the one finding the best gun that "fits his hand."
He last ended on a Bersa P3000 or something shitty like that. It didnt function properly. He is now buying a glock and I am exhorting him witha ll of my might to NOT sell the gun because of some pansy subjective bullshit. By his words they are plenty accurate in his hand. I ask him what else is important in the gun beyond reliability and I get some vague handwavy bullshit that reminds me of the same criteria one would use when selecting wines. "Oh, but this one has notes of cherry blossom and a strong finish!"
I told him to shoot at least a dozen IPSC/IDPA matches before he even considers selling THIS glock...
edit: but yes, to address your point, it need not be a formalized match with other shooters. Any series of targets - even just 3 standard bullseyes at varied distances - that ave to be engaged in a specific order under time will give one an idea as to how well you can shoot under pressure.
Any chance you have something out of your personal collection you can sell them for the peace of mind? A few of my friends, I would tell them what to buy and if they buy something else that’s on them.
But a couple of my closest friends, if one was really considering buying a HiPoint or Sigma or something as their only gun, and was hell bent on it, I’d probably offer sell him my Glock 19 for a similar price as a new Sigma, then I’d go buy another one. Sure, I’d be out a few bucks, but amongst best friends (like best man in my wedding a vice versa), it’s really nothing.
Idiots buy shit gear.
I do not make a point of making friends out of idiots.
i have a hard time respecting people who own shitty guns. the cost thing isn't really even much of an issue, we're talking firearms that will last decades and fire 20 cent+ cartridges. 100 dollars or so evaporates quickly in those terms. Besides, XDs are the same price as glocks. Taurus is a tiny bit cheaper. I've got less than a grand into my 2 carry guns. glock 19 and a smtih 642, both bought brand new at local shops. barely a grand into my AR15... (used and blem)
ah well, i guess you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
What specifically are you trying to steer them away from? A Glock is only 400 bucks or so, you really don't have to spend much to get stuff that works great....
tfltackdriver
02-11-12, 08:18
I tell you that is one thing I don't like about Chicago guns are the devil here so there isn't a lot of places you can go for knowledge and even fewer places for good training. When I was picking up my new M&P the clerk was telling the guy next to me that a Sig or Berreta was just as good as a Glock or HK.
I would agree with the clerk.
Price should not be your first consideration, but it is also possible to get too hung up on *your* brand as the solution for everyone. Once you have a quality, reliable pistol, effective shooting is more of a software issue.
You can give me the most raced-out STI and give Kyle Defoor a Makarov and I promise you he will slay me every time.
TeamGrazzi
02-11-12, 08:36
What specifically are you trying to steer them away from? A Glock is only 400 bucks or so, you really don't have to spend much to get stuff that works great....
They both are going to buy a Ruger LCP. I have read nothing but bad things about Rugers and was tryin to get them to do some research to maybe find a better quality weapon
It sounds to me like they really aren't serious about a carry weapon and you can't educate a lack of desire.
They both are going to buy a Ruger LCP. I have read nothing but bad things about Rugers and was tryin to get them to do some research to maybe find a better quality weapon
Oh.. Yeah. As a general rule, Ruger autos are pretty iffy. I have an LCR and it's pretty nice for what it is...
Make your recommendation, if its followed, great: if not, then, "stupid should hurt" as the saying goes....
Its kinda funny, but I have a friend who is always asking me for gun/gear advice, and for the first year or so, he never took it! Needless to say, that he went through a few holsters, chest rigs, and guns before he went full circle back to my original suggestion...funny how that happens...
RogerinTPA
02-11-12, 10:21
If he's that "thick", you can't, so stop trying. It reminds me of the three things men think they are masters of, shooting, driving & ****in. With some ego's and emotional attachment, you can't tell them shit (BM vs Colt). Sometimes, people have to have an epiphany before forward progress is made.
Ok so I have a problem... I have a few very good friends that just won't listen when I try to lead them toward more information and a better selection of quality weapons. How do I educate them without sounding like an ass?
====================================
What are you recommending?
.
TeamGrazzi
02-11-12, 11:12
====================================
What are you recommending?
.
I was telling him to look into the Glock 19 / 26 or the M&P 9c. I also told them to look into HK as I don't know much about them yet
Here is the best way to deal with this situation.
If your so-called "friends" don't respect you enough to listen to you, get new friends....
This is The best and my personal favorite.
I used to worry myself SO much about what my friends would buy and when it broke, I had to fix it.
I got the attitude that, If they dont care then why the **** do I?
A friend is breaking gas rings left and right on his YHM right now.
He didnt listen either
Been there done that.
When they ask advice, you give. When they ignore it, you laugh. They can only learn the hard way. Guns bring a LOT of ego to the table and people get very touchy. You can't cram your views down their throat, even if it probably would do them some good.
+1 The hardest folks to help are adult American males with minimal shooting experience but plenty of cinema/gaming time. Worse if they were good athletes. :lol:
vietboy1st
02-11-12, 12:35
I know you sound like a good friend. But your friend is a hard head person. Just let him do what whever he wants. He will learn. Here is the quote for your buddy." You can take a horse to a River, but you can't make them drink " .
They both are going to buy a Ruger LCP. I have read nothing but bad things about Rugers and was tryin to get them to do some research to maybe find a better quality weapon
I was telling him to look into the Glock 19 / 26 or the M&P 9c. I also told them to look into HK as I don't know much about them yet
Seems to me you can throw a compromise solution out there with something like a Kahr CM9 or PM9. Would help bridge the gap in terms of quality and performance (including getting away from 380) if price isn't the issue and their motives actually revolve around ease of concealment and other issues.
If price is an issue to them and they truly are martial artists (will recognize the value of practice, having something work every time as much as possible (guns it goes bang, hand to hand it is a technique that will work most the time by its own merit/not luck based), etc) then bring up the fact they will put thousands of rounds through the guns and do many drills and that the cost of a better CC piece, lower part breakage and failure rates, better training satisfaction, etc will make those extra hundreds of $ spent on the gun unimportant as well as insignificant compared to money spent of ammo.
Find out why they are wanting the Ruger and then try and lead them to the Glock 19 and M&P9c by addressing their concerns (not as hard to conceal as they may think, what ever reasons they are leaning towards LCP over them) as well as pointing out any short comings of the LCP (not as easy to handle, not as reliable, lower capacity, a round that is regarded as risky in terms of performance, etc). Then if its still not flying offer up the Kahrs and Glock 26 as more inline with the LCP but better, helps show your concern, willingness to accept alternatives, etc.
tfltackdriver
02-13-12, 14:48
Oh.. Yeah. As a general rule, Ruger autos are pretty iffy.
Honest to God, I've been shooting for more than 20 years and this is absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone question Ruger pistols' reliability. I haven't had a lot of first-hand experience with the full-size SR series, though. I've shot the crap out of everything else they've made, and have the entirely opposite impression.
Don't get me wrong, I think there are almost always better alternatives, but "iffy" just strikes me as the wrong word.
To the OP, I had an LCP for a while. The only reason I got rid of it was because .380 was almost impossible to find for a long time. It goes places even a J-frame won't go. If he can carry something bigger, your friend is a fool not to. But, if he can become proficient with it and WILL carry it everywhere instead of leaving the Glock 19 at home more often than not, which is the right pistol for him?
People who carry a .38 in a 2-inch barrel, but take a dump on a .380's ballistics coming out of a 2.75-inch auto -- I don't get it. Take a dump on it because it's not as reliable -- point taken, your revolver probably isn't going to have a malfunction. You can laugh up until your 5 shots are spent. :dance3:
Alaskapopo
02-13-12, 15:02
Honest to God, I've been shooting for more than 20 years and this is absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone question Ruger pistols' reliability. I haven't had a lot of first-hand experience with the full-size SR series, though. I've shot the crap out of everything else they've made, and have the entirely opposite impression.
Don't get me wrong, I think there are almost always better alternatives, but "iffy" just strikes me as the wrong word.
To the OP, I had an LCP for a while. The only reason I got rid of it was because .380 was almost impossible to find for a long time. It goes places even a J-frame won't go. If he can carry something bigger, your friend is a fool not to. But, if he can become proficient with it and WILL carry it everywhere instead of leaving the Glock 19 at home more often than not, which is the right pistol for him?
People who carry a .38 in a 2-inch barrel, but take a dump on a .380's ballistics coming out of a 2.75-inch auto -- I don't get it. Take a dump on it because it's not as reliable -- point taken, your revolver probably isn't going to have a malfunction. You can laugh up until your 5 shots are spent. :dance3:
A +P 135 grain .38 special round at 900 fps (power factor of 121) has a hell of a lot more momentium than a 90 grain .380 bullet at 950 (power factor 86) . That momentium allows the .38 special to drive a expanded bullet deep enough to get to the vital organs. The .380 is best with ball because with JHP rounds it does not penetrate deeply enough. The .38 special clearly outclasses the .380. Doc has a good article on it here. As for reliablity out of Ruger autos its best described as iffy. My friends LCP malfunctions about 1 shot per 50 rounds. I have seen their full size P94 have issues as well.
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