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This is Good --> Proven Good Guy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3UrHOAYX_Y)
Ok....police conduct a felony stop because someone was carrying a firearm at a mall. They handcuff him and verify his credentials. What would you have expected them to do?
Seems like a reasonable approach by the police. The other options would have been to not respond to the 911 call for a man with a gun or to use their telekenitic superpowers to verify the motorists right to carry without stopping him.
I would respectully inform the gentleman to carry concealed if he does not like the experience of being on the receiving end of a felony stop.
Ok....police conduct a felony stop because someone was carrying a firearm at a mall. They handcuff him and verify his credentials. What would you have expected them to do?
Seems like a reasonable approach by the police. The other options would have been to not respond to the 911 call for a man with a gun or to use their telekenitic superpowers to verify the motorists right to carry without stopping him.
I would respectully inform the gentleman to carry concealed if he does not like the experience of being on the receiving end of a felony stop.
Okay... Did you miss something in the video?
How about the Officer asking him if he held a conceled weapons permit?
"Why?... In the State of Ohio you don't need one to carry a firearm out in the open."
Then after seeing the man had one, he asks him if he is a convicted Felon.
"I'm just curious.. can anyone tell me exacly what States do issue conceled Weapons permits to convicted Felons?"
I personaly can't think of any... But if anyone does know of one.. I'm real curious to know about it..
Good reason not to open carry.
As far as Im concerned that dude is an idiot. He knew that he risked having loaded guns pointed at him by doing so........and if he didn't he does now!!!
I live in Alaska and I don't open carry in town, just for that reason, could be a rookie (nervous) cop with bad gun handling skills (ie finger on trigger) pointing that AR at me.
Besides why show your ace in the hole...... to the bad guys.
Okay... Did you miss something in the video?
How about the Officer asking him if he held a conceled weapons permit?
"Why?... In the State of Ohio you don't need one to carry a firearm out in the open."
Then after seeing the man had one, he asks him if he is a convicted Felon.
"I'm just curious.. can anyone tell me exacly what States do issue conceled Weapons permits to convicted Felons?"
I personaly can't think of any... But if anyone does know of one.. I'm real curious to know about it..
HGRY--
If you were the patolman, how would you have handled this? What tactics would you have used to approach an armed suspect? The cops acted appropriately in my humble opinion.
To keep it simple, I will do whatever I have to do to go home after my shift. To simply walk up to that attention starved bafoon would be reckless and stupid. You have to assume he is a threat until proven otherwise. The one time you don't, you will pay the ultimate price for being careless.
Great advise.. Thanks.. Now can anyone tell me what States issue Conceled Weapon permits to convicted felons?
HGRY--
If you were the patolman, how would you have handled this? What tactics would you have used to approach an armed suspect? The cops acted appropriately in my humble opinion.
If it had been me.. I would have never pulled him over to start with unless I knew of a reported crime that he might be a suspect in.
There is nothing criminal about a man carrying a firearm.. From what I understand someone called the Police and reported that had one on his person.. I see nothing wrong with that, in the world we live in I think ever Law abiding citizen should carry at least one firearm on their person at all times out in public.
This man wasn't doing anything illegal, as a patrolman I would have had no reason to pull him over..
Now if he had of just robbed the petro store he had just left from.. I would have certainly stopped him the exact same way the Officers in the video did, he would have without a doubt been a threat to me, and the safety of the general public.
But being he was just being a normal American citizen.. "As he was" I would have just let him be..
If it had been me.. I would have never pulled him over to start with unless I knew of a reported crime that he might be a suspect in.
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But being he was just being a normal American citizen.. "As he was" I would have just let him be..
Not handling a 911 call for service is not an option for cops. The video states "he was spotted with a weapon in a local petrol station".
Even in states that allow open carry it is reasonable for cops to stop people (felony stop) if they are armed and to verify that they are in lawful possession of the firearm.
Once again, how would you ahve stopped him???
If it had been me.. I would have never pulled him over to start with unless I knew of a reported crime that he might be a suspect in.
There is nothing criminal about a man carrying a firearm.. From what I understand someone called the Police and reported that had one on his person.. I see nothing wrong with that, in the world we live in I think ever Law abiding citizen should carry at least one firearm on their person at all times out in public.
We have to. If someone calls 911 we are required to respond. Even if they say "oops, I'm sorry I misdialed the numbers." An officer goes. Dispatchers can not just fail to dispatch a call because they interpret that no crime as been committed. A patrolman has to do that after arriving on scene and evaluating the situation first hand.
Now if he had of just robbed the petro store he had just left from.. I would have certainly stopped him the exact same way the Officers in the video did, he would have without a doubt been a threat to me, and the safety of the general public.
But being he was just being a normal American citizen.. "As he was" I would have just let him be..
How do you know he didn't? You would be amazed at how many arrest are made before the crime is reported. That is the astonishing thing about the job. You absolutely never know what you are going to get. There are traffic stops when I just am 100% sure I am going to get into something good and well, all is just peachy. Then there are the traffic stops for say a simple brake light on a middle class car and all hell breaks loose. You never know.
It comes down to what I mentioned in my initial post in this thread. You know he has a gun. The public as felt the need to contact law enforcement. You have to treat him as a threat until proven otherwise or it will be the last call you go on and your family will be getting "The Knock" that evening. If I inconvenience You for the sake of my safety, I will not think twice because regardless, I am going home and You will be too.
I have mixed feelings on this. On one hand it was the guy's right to carry but on the other the PD received a 911 call. It looked like police did the right thing but asked some questions that made them look uneducated on the law. Had there not been a 911 call I would feel differently.
I carry open sometimes and understand that I may have to go through this, sadly it comes with the territory due to all the violent crime that has made big news lately.
I still don't understand why anyone won't answer this one question, the Officer that did question the man he pulled over, asked him if he had ever been charged with a felony.. Of course everyone clearly heard him answer saying that in the State of Ohio. "Like it is here in North Carolina" you can't get a conceled carry permit if you are a felon.. But clearly the Officer would not have asked that question unless there are some States that actully do issue them to felons.
Can anyone tell me what States do issue c.w. permits to convicted felons?
Just real curious.
Hi all. Just found the forum and this is my first post. Looks like this is a good place to get my feet wet!
When I moved to Indiana last summer I applied for my carry permit right away. As I was waiting for the permit I asked local LEO about local SOP.
I knew Indiana was an 'open carry' state and I have visited many other states that offer OC, but it has always given me pause, I guess for the same reasons that the suspect above was reported.
As it turns out, almost every LEO I talked to said that while OC is certainly allowed, it is generally frowned upon because the 'sheeple' tend to over-react when they see anybody with a weapon except LEO.
That suited me OK, since my motto has always been, I carry and nobody needs to know that I carry.
I tend to agree with ZGXtreme, the guy was likely an 'attention starved bafoon'. Sure it's his right to carry, but one can't cause a panic in a crowded community just because you have the right to carry.
Common sense is at a premium. Ignorance is the most expensive commodity in America.
I still don't understand why anyone won't answer this one question, the Officer that did question the man he pulled over, asked him if he had ever been charged with a felony.. Of course everyone clearly heard him answer saying that in the State of Ohio. "Like it is here in North Carolina" you can't get a conceled carry permit if you are a felon.. But clearly the Officer would not have asked that question unless there are some States that actully do issue them to felons.
Can anyone tell me what States do issue c.w. permits to convicted felons?
Just real curious.
You can be CHARGED with a felony after receiving a concealed firearm permit.
Most likely because they can not vouch for any verified knowledge regarding that specific subject. Valid information is a staple of this forum.
To be quite honest with you. I have to say it is at least plausible. If one were to follow that idiots logic then all officers would be certifiable "good guys." We have our bad apples. There is always someone who will fall through the cracks.
As for the officer's question. To be honest. Who cares? It's a question. If he hasn't then answer "no." Pretty simple. As for me, I may have asked that same question. I try to stick to a script for lack of a better term when if comes to talking to people. Now obviously every situation has a little different quirks about it. But more often than not I ask the same background questions of everyone I come in contact with. One, it is an easy way for me to make sure I do not forget something and two I am a creature of habit. My little "script" has helped me a time or two when complained on because I could be 99% certain I covered something that the complainee states otherwise. This could simply just be the same thing.
I still don't understand why anyone won't answer this one question, the Officer that did question the man he pulled over, asked him if he had ever been charged with a felony.. Of course everyone clearly heard him answer saying that in the State of Ohio. "Like it is here in North Carolina" you can't get a conceled carry permit if you are a felon.. But clearly the Officer would not have asked that question unless there are some States that actully do issue them to felons.
Can anyone tell me what States do issue c.w. permits to convicted felons?
Just real curious.
The question better suited which is where the cop was going is this....
How many CCW holders have had their card revoked due to felony committed after reciept of good guy card?
The cop asked a legit question......
K.L. Davis
12-20-07, 23:03
Dude, let it go already... okay?
So the guy has a CCW... all that means is that at the time he applied for it he had not been convicted of a felony.
The cop asked if had been charged with a felony... now believe it or not, a CCW is not as you put it "proof of being a good guy" -- there is a chance that the subject could have been charged after issue.
Still with me?
Okay, if the subject was charged with a felony, violent act or drug charge, it is the automatic (albeit temporary) revocation of the CCW (in most locales)... so even if he has his "certified good guy license" it means diddly at that moment.
And believe it or not, lots of folks cops deal with actually lie to the cop! They even have fake IDs and licenses and sometimes worse! I mean as hard as it to believe, there is an outside chance that somewhere in America, right now, there is a guy that has a CCW, who should not... shocker huh?
You know... If I was to watch a show about surgeons in an ER, I doubt that I would criticize the surgical procedure... ya know why? Cause I don't jack shit about being a doctor :rolleyes:
I still don't understand why anyone won't answer this one question, the Officer that did question the man he pulled over, asked him if he had ever been charged with a felony.. Of course everyone clearly heard him answer saying that in the State of Ohio. "Like it is here in North Carolina" you can't get a conceled carry permit if you are a felon.. But clearly the Officer would not have asked that question unless there are some States that actully do issue them to felons.
Can anyone tell me what States do issue c.w. permits to convicted felons?
Just real curious.
I tend to agree with ZGXtreme, the guy was likely an 'attention starved bafoon'. Sure it's his right to carry, but one can't cause a panic in a crowded community.
I'm sure he doesn't carry out in the open to scare anyone, I certainly don't, I've carried openly for at least the past fourteen years, I've never had a problem..
It's a choice thing.. Some people don't like guns.. I don't know if you have heard but "Guns kill People" and because of that some people are scared of them..
This guy more than likely was spotted by one of those people, and that is what led up to him getting pulled over..
The question better suited which is where the cop was going is this....
How many CCW holders have had their card revoked due to felony committed after reciept of good guy card?
I don't know anyone "Personaly" that has ever even been arrested for a felony, so my answer to that question would be : I have no clue.. I still have my "good guy card" and I'm still a good guy, so I guess I'll keep it..
The cop asked a legit question......
Maybe so.. But it sounded kind of stupid on my end, I noticed the suspect was in cuffs, can you figure out what he was arrested for, I'm curious about that as well.. He was totaly compliant with the Ohio State Laws, he didn't try to run from the Police, he didn't seem to put up any kind of a fight, Was that what you would call a "legit" arrest in your opinion?
If so what would you charge him with?
I'm sure he doesn't carry out in the open to scare anyone, I certainly don't, I've carried openly for at least the past fourteen years, I've never had a problem..
It's a choice thing.. Some people don't like guns.. I don't know if you have heard but "Guns kill People" and because of that some people are scared of them..
This guy more than likely was spotted by one of those people, and that is what led up to him getting pulled over..
You state that you have carried openly for fourteen years and not had a problem, more power to you. Given your statement, one would be led to believe that there is more behind the story (as there is with everything) than what is shown in that short two minute clip. You haven't had any problems. He did, and most likely for a reason.
I don't know anyone "Personaly" that has ever even been arrested for a felony, so my answer to that question would be : I have no clue.. I still have my "good guy card" and I'm still a good guy, so I guess I'll keep it..
Maybe so.. But it sounded kind of stupid on my end, I noticed the suspect was in cuffs, can you figure out what he was arrested for, I'm curious about that as well.. He was totaly compliant with the Ohio State Laws, he didn't try to run from the Police, he didn't seem to put up any kind of a fight, Was that what you would call a "legit" arrest in your opinion?
If so what would you charge him with?
I don't believe they arrested him, didn't here them say so or read his rights. They just had the cuffs on till they were positive he is a good guy.........
Listen......if you carry in the open the posiblity of this happening to you is ALWAYS there........ You can always sue, but I doubt you'll get anywhere with that. Im a gun guy and belive anyone who isn't a felon should excercise their 2nd ammendment rights. But if sitting on a jury with these two cops as defendents I believe I would side with them......as seen on this video.
GastonG-NoVa
12-20-07, 23:42
Good reason not to open carry.
As far as Im concerned that dude is an idiot. He knew that he risked having loaded guns pointed at him by doing so........and if he didn't he does now!!!
I live in Alaska and I don't open carry in town, just for that reason, could be a rookie (nervous) cop with bad gun handling skills (ie finger on trigger) pointing that AR at me.
Besides why show your ace in the hole...... to the bad guys.
I know I am going to get flamed for this....big time, but it is a discussion board. Before I get started, let me say that I am pro second amendment and pro shall issue for concealed weapons permits....but
I REALLY don't care for the open carry laws. If you open carry in rural America, it is probly going to be a non-issue, but It make it hard on LEOs trying to figure out who the bad guys are. As was said above....why show your ace in the hole!!! I can't figure that one out.
Let me throw a little twist in the scenario. If you were the Officer that had to respond to a man with gun call. On the fly would it make a difference if the man looked like a gang banger, with some chains on and droopy pants. What if he was hispanic or black. Would it be ok then. Should he not have been drawn down on because he looked like a bunch of board members here. I am just throwing that out there to play devils advocate and muddy up the waters abit.
On most emergency calls, the LEOs get just a snap-shot of what is going on. There is no half hour briefing with all of the monday morning quarterback information that the media gets a hold of the day after.
To sum it up, I just think you place yourself and others at the risk of getting proned out by a nervous LEO if you open carry.
But what do I know:p
Hell ive been on call for "man with a gun" and it turned out to be two 18 year old kids running around with airsoft guns. We took them down via a felony stop. Those things look so real they can be easily confused as real weapons. I could sit and rant "if you have ever worn the badge you would know how it really is" but im not going to b/c most people here understand what its like to be a "sheep dog" and not one of the "herd". As far as him being in cuffs, just because he is in cuffs does not mean he is being arrested, he is simply being "detained and cuffed for his and officer safety".
I don't know about New York City, or Dallas Texas, but I do know Charlotte N.C. ~ And I do know the thugs around here do carry daily, they NEVER open carry, and I have no doubt that would be because most of these drug dealing punks are convicted felons, so of couse their not going to carry a weapon out in plain sight.
One reason I do like to carry openly is to say "I have nothing to hide." I've been told by quite a few people that is a good show of repect, the ones that scare people are these thugs that do hide them, and that is simply because their packing steel for the purpose of criminal activity, I carry to prevent them from making me one of their victims.
Police Officers carry for self protection.. So do I and many other law abiding citizens in America.
Calling 911 is a great way to report a crime after the fact.. But when you only have a second, 911 will not save you like Smith & Wesson can..
I don't know about New York City, or Dallas Texas, but I do know Charlotte N.C. ~ And I do know the thugs around here do carry daily, they NEVER open carry, and I have no doubt that would be because most of these drug dealing punks are convicted felons, so of couse their not going to carry a weapon out in plain sight.
One reason I do like to carry openly is to say "I have nothing to hide." I've been told by quite a few people that is a good show of repect, the ones that scare people are these thugs that do hide them, and that is simply because their packing steel for the purpose of criminal activity, I carry to prevent them from making me one of their victims.
Police Officers carry for self protection.. So do I and many other law abiding citizens in America.
Calling 911 is a great way to report a crime after the fact.. But when you only have a second, 911 will not save you like Smith & Wesson can..
Dude.....you gotta rethink your position a bit......ever think why off duty cops don't pack out in the open.....
Respect of what.......most gun guys, disrespect you for open carry and would regaurd you as a novice wanting respect you don't deserve
I like that you might have questions but I truly believe that your sole purpose is to stir the pot in regard to negative press/LE.
GD at TOS is the place for you. LOTS o' superpatriot crap there for you to feast on.
HGRY--
If you were the patolman, how would you have handled this? What tactics would you have used to approach an armed suspect? The cops acted appropriately in my humble opinion.
How I would have handled it, is if I received a carry about a man with a gun, in a open carry state, and the caller stated no other illegal activity was observed. I would dispose of the radio run as unnessasary.
I continue to be appalled that merely carrying a gun visibly is viewed by so many people as a legitimate reason for police officers to stop and question someone. Most won't admit it, but you're saying that possessing a gun is an indication that you have done or plan to do something illegal. That is wrong.
This is why more people should carry openly when it's prudent to do so. People, including many who claim to be very pro-RKBA, need to be re-educated that carrying a gun is not evidence of wrong-doing, criminal intent, mental problems, or some emotional need to "impress" people. It doesn't mean someone is a criminal, nor does it mean that they are a cop. It just means that they choose to carry a gun.
Respect of what.......most gun guys, disrespect you for open carry and would regaurd you as a novice wanting respect you don't deserve
I maintain that the problem there in most cases is the observer.
There is no right to "not be offended," which is what this is.
Cover officer needs to sling that rifle, rather than leave it on the hood and walk away from it.
I continue to be appalled that merely carrying a gun visibly is viewed by so many people as a legitimate reason for police officers to stop and question someone. Most won't admit it, but you're saying that possessing a gun is an indication that you have done or plan to do something illegal. That is wrong.
If they guy in question was walking down the street I guarantee that the stop would have been conducted completely different.
Cover officer needs to sling that rifle, rather than leave it on the hood and walk away from it.
I noticed that as well, but here again we have a short time to make a decison and you all have a life time to tear it apart.
Does anyone in Ohio know if concealed carry information is available when LEO's run vehicle registration? I will refrain from further comment until then.
How about a little [B]common sense[B]? That guy packing the guns was stupid. He knew that somebody was bound to call in on him because he had guns on him. If nothing else, he alarmed and disturbed another person with his actions which is illegal. Concealed carry means CONCEALED. Not out in the open. He pushed a point and got arrested for it. Was it worth it? Probably not. By now he's probably lost all of his guns and his permit to carry concealed.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 06:52
Does anyone in Ohio know if concealed carry information is available when LEO's run vehicle registration? I will refrain from further comment until then.
"Yes. When you acquire a concealed carry license the status of your license to carry is associated with your driver's license and vehicle registration through the LEADS (Law Enforcement Automated Data System) database used by every law enforcement agency in the state of Ohio.
If you are in your vehicle and pulled over the officer likely already knows you're carrying a firearm and will likely be expecting you to admit to it as he or she approaches. This fact does not eliminate your obligation to notify law enforcement immediately upon contact during a traffic stop.
It is a very good idea to share this information with anyone who may borrow or drive your vehicle regularly."
This was copyed from here: http://www.ohioccw.org/component/option,com_kb/Itemid,57/page,articles/articleid,153/
David Thomas
12-21-07, 06:53
I continue to be appalled that merely carrying a gun visibly is viewed by so many people as a legitimate reason for police officers to stop and question someone. Most won't admit it, but you're saying that possessing a gun is an indication that you have done or plan to do something illegal. That is wrong.
This is why more people should carry openly when it's prudent to do so. People, including many who claim to be very pro-RKBA, need to be re-educated that carrying a gun is not evidence of wrong-doing, criminal intent, mental problems, or some emotional need to "impress" people. It doesn't mean someone is a criminal, nor does it mean that they are a cop. It just means that they choose to carry a gun.
I will refrain from commenting on the video; however, I must say that I agree with Rhino 100% in his above referenced post. Well said, Rhino.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 07:06
How about a little [B]common sense[B]? That guy packing the guns was stupid. He knew that somebody was bound to call in on him because he had guns on him. If nothing else, he alarmed and disturbed another person with his actions which is illegal. Concealed carry means CONCEALED. Not out in the open. He pushed a point and got arrested for it. Was it worth it? Probably not. By now he's probably lost all of his guns and his permit to carry concealed.
It is LEGAL to Open Carry in the state of Ohio and this guy was not arrested just questioned. It is ILLEGAL to open carry in your vehicle without a CCW licence so this guy was legal since he had his CCW. There is nothing stupid about practicing your rights and according to the Ohio Supreme Court ruling in 2003 this is every law abiding Ohioans fundamental individual right.
FWIW: Local ordinances can still prohibit open carry but not conceal carry.
David Pennington
12-21-07, 07:27
I can't believe this thread. No one commented on the "wife beater" and suspenders. Now that's a classic look...
Some people need to put down the tinfoil.
LE cannot pick and choose what complaints to go to, secondly anyone ASSuming anyone is a good guy without personally knowing them is looking for a recipie for being dead.
[I will now go back into continuance with my policy about not posting in General Discussion]
I can't believe this thread. No one commented on the "wife beater" and suspenders. Now that's a classic look...
I read through the thread before I watched the video. As I was reading, I thought that more than likely, it was the guy's overall appearance as well as carrying a gun that made people more suspicious of him. I think his choice of attire helped with the negative impression that he made. Whether it is right or not, the reality is that society in general judges people on appearance. If he was attractive and/or well-dressed, meaning not like a gangster wannabee, the phone call to the police may not have been made.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 07:54
I can't believe this thread. No one commented on the "wife beater" and suspenders. Now that's a classic look...
HAHA! I honestly thought the dude was one of those German accordion players at first then I saw the "wife beater". Dressed like that and open carrying a gun I would pull the guy over too just to give him a dressing tip.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 08:01
Some people need to put down the tinfoil.
LE cannot pick and choose what complaints to go to, secondly anyone ASSuming anyone is a good guy without personally knowing them is looking for a recipie for being dead.
[I will now go back into continuance with my policy about not posting in General Discussion]
Shoot there has been people I knew that I assumed were "good" that turned out "not so good" and Im a pretty good judge of character. I have learned something over the years people change, sometime for the good and sometimes for the bad. Never ASSume
ETA: Im agreeing with you and adding my .02.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 08:22
I read through the thread before I watched the video. As I was reading, I thought that more than likely, it was the guy's overall appearance as well as carrying a gun that made people more suspicious of him. I think his choice of attire helped with the negative impression that he made. Whether it is right or not, the reality is that society in general judges people on appearance. If he was attractive and/or well-dressed, meaning not like a gangster wannabee, the phone call to the police may not have been made.
I have met some pretty unstable fellas that know how to dress nice even on the verge of metrosexual. When Im out and about I try to stay aware of the fruitcakes around me but always have in the back of my mind the guy/gal that looks non-threatening or "normal" so to say. I can read there appearance but not their mind or intentions. In our society dressing nice will possibly save CCW some unwanted trouble.
At the church I attend the ushers are also security. They eye people that come in dressed non church like but if a guy comes in a suit and tie he is regarded as the norm church goer. If a person really wants to to evil things in our church all they need to do if focus more on blending by simply dressing the part. Looks can be deceiving on both types trust me I know with long hair and long beard I get all kinds of looks anywhere I go and Im just a big teddy bear, that packs a pistol.;)
The only reason I'm responding to this is because anytime something like this comes up it turns into a "how dare you bash LEO's" thread, maybe that was the intention of Hgary, maybe not. What I do believe is, a reasonable dialog is important for learning of both the LEO's and citizenry that read and participates in such dialogs. It is all of our responsibilities to keep our government in check and scrutinize policy and procedure that effects us, no matter what side of the shield you are on. The end result should be a better relationship between the community and the people that serve them.
Listen to the video at the 56 second mark the LEO asks if detainee if he has his Concealed carry license with him. There is little question at the time of the stop the officers knew the following about the owner of the car; had no wants or warrants, was not a convicted felon; and has a valid CCW license. They should also know that under Ohio law open carry is not illegal.
To be fair we don't know; what was said in the 911 call, or if the owner of the car was the driver. Maybe he had his hand on his side arm while approaching the counter at the gas station. But more likely than not, it offended someones delicate sensibilities and they made the frantic call of a man with a gun and gave little detail of what happened, nor did the dispatcher ask.
I would imagine department policy to is to conduct a felony stop on all calls of that nature, but i would also imagine all speeders that are pulled over are supposed to be ticketed not occasionally let off with a warning. Maybe a little more common sense should have been used by all parties involved. Maybe the detainee was a known trouble maker and just hadn't been popped yet...i noticed red braces and tattoos.
We don't know the whole story, I will give the officers the benefit of the doubt. now to address some more comments.
Why does open carry upset everyone? Does it upset your delicate sensibilities as well? You talk about alerting people and your "ace in the whole", sorry dudes most of us give it away in the clothes we wear. Cops are often the worse offenders; union tshirts, "Gunslinger walk", badge on belt, hair cuts, pistol on cheap belt holster under an open coat. Its the very rare LEO or civilian that is totally gray when he carries concealed, or even attempts to. Quite honestly civilians take carrying concealed much more seriously, a LEO that does is the rare bird.
There is a divide between LEO's and the citizens they are sworn to serve; LEO's forget that they are there at the will of the people enforcing the rules set forth by the community, and the community snubs their nose at LEO's because the only time they have dealings with them any more is when something bad happens.
In ending no matter who you are on this site you obviously take your security and safety seriously, you are here to learn and exchange ideas....That is our common bond. Open your mind and don't be afraid to look at something for what it actually is and not what you think it is.
Sorry for rambling time for more coffee.
Oh ya and the loaded AR15/m16 on the hood of the car is bad form, Loaded guns should always secured either in a rack or in someones paws/person.
And one last thing that I'm sure will get me flamed, If you are an LEO and think violating someones rights is ok so YOU can make it home safe every night you need to find a new job.
Don Robison
12-21-07, 08:32
Listen to the video at the 56 second mark the LEO asks if detainee if he has his Concealed carry license with him. There is little question at the time of the stop the officers knew the following about the owner of the car; had no wants or warrants, was not a convicted felon; and has a valid CCW license. They should also know that under Ohio law open carry is not illegal.
How do they know the driver is the owner?
How do they know they driver is "clean"?
Is CCW tied to driver's license info in Ohio? It's not in FL, so I'm curious.
How do they know the driver is the owner?
How do they know they driver is "clean"?
Is CCW tied to driver's license info in Ohio? It's not in FL, so I'm curious.
Hey Don no offense man your reading comprehension skills are lacking, I covered your first 2 questions in my last post, and the answer to your 3rd question has been answered because I have already asked the same question.
Bulldog1967
12-21-07, 08:41
I like that you might have questions but I truly believe that your sole purpose is to stir the pot in regard to negative press/LE.
GD at TOS is the place for you. LOTS o' superpatriot crap there for you to feast on.
Nice attitude ace.
Some of us open carry for practical reasons too. :rolleyes:
I have met some pretty unstable fellas that know how to dress nice even on the verge of metrosexual. When Im out and about I try to stay aware of the fruitcakes around me but always have in the back of my mind the guy/gal that looks non-threatening or "normal" so to say. You can read there appearance but not their mind or intentions. In our society dressing nice will possibly save CCW some unwanted trouble.
At the church I attend the ushers are also security. They eye people that come in dressed non church like but if a guy comes in a suit and tie he is regarded as the norm church goer. If a person really wants to to evil things in our church all they need to do if focus more on blending by simply dressing the part. Looks can be deceiving on both types trust me I know with long hair and long beard I get all kinds of looks anywhere I go and Im just a big teddy bear, that packs a pistol.;)
As I said in my previous post, right or not, people are judged by society in general by their dress/appearance. I never said appearance had anything to do with intent, or that I judged people like that. I have a good friend that looks like a wild man, he knows who he is. ;) If I were that shallow, how would I have become his friend. I was pointing out that many people judge other people by appearance.
A couple of posters are a little new here and need to read the rules. Then take a deep breath and relax. There is no need to insult people. Posting just to piss off others, is akin to trolling. Debate is fine, resorting to personal insult and attacks is not. I don't want to have to close this thread.
crowkiller
12-21-07, 10:30
As I said in my previous post, right or not, people are judged by society in general by their dress/appearance. I never said appearance had anything to do with intent, or that I judged people like that. I have a good friend that looks like a wild man, he knows who he is. ;) If I were that shallow, how would I have become his friend. I was pointing out that many people judge other people by appearance.
I know what you was saying and agree I reckon I didnt make myself clear while agreeing and adding my .02.
I see where I might have messed up I typed "you" instead of "I" when referring to reading appearance. My bad I was still talking about myself, bear with me with this typin stuff what I think and what I type doesnt always jive with each other.
One thing that hasn't been covered. I don't know about Ohio, but here in Kentucky, courts have held that even though open carry is legal, it can be Disorderly Conduct if the person is carrying openly in an area where it causes "alarm to the general public." How do we know if it's causing "alarm to the general public?" Usually when they dial 911. If you are walking around in Louisville or Lexington with an openly carried gun, you are going to be talking to the police. Out in the rural areas, probably not. This is one of the reasons behind the CCW license in the first place. If nobody see the gun then it's not an issue.
Nice attitude ace.
Some of us open carry for practical reasons too. :rolleyes:
Deep breath taken.
I have no qualms w/ open carry.
None.
My comment was in regards to the vibe Im gettin from a certain posters comments. I could be wrong. I just feel like I'm not. I'll save it for another day.
Aplolgies to any and all who were/are offended.
the1911fan
12-21-07, 14:57
Why don't I ever see these open carry advocates slinging their AK or AR as they walk in their favorite urban area.:confused:
. . . I thought that more than likely, it was the guy's overall appearance as well as carrying a gun that made people more suspicious of him. I think his choice of attire helped with the negative impression that he made. Whether it is right or not, the reality is that society in general judges people on appearance. If he was attractive and/or well-dressed, meaning not like a gangster wannabee, the phone call to the police may not have been made.
You make an excellent point. I have participated in many discussions about open carry and one of the point I usually make is that how you are perceived when you carry openly very much influenced by your demeanor and appearance. If you conduct yourself like a civilized human being, you're going to have a lot fewer problems. Of course, the same is true if you don't carry openly, but the sight of a gun (unfortunately) lowers the threshold of suspicion for too many people (until we can change that).
If you're dressed neatly and your gun(s) is (are) carried in a proper holster, you might not even be noticed by most people.
I will refrain from commenting on the video; however, I must say that I agree with Rhino 100% in his above referenced post. Well said, Rhino.
Clearly, sir, you are an erudite and perceptive individual. :D
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:44
Bottom line, folks:
When the cops get a 911 call, they HAVE to investigate. Even if it is some hysterical ninny who dials 911 for no good reason.
Open carry is fine and dandy if you chose to go that route, but if you openly carry into a populated area BE PREPARED TO HAVE A NICE CHAT WITH THE POLICE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE CARRYING. When you do have the chat with the police do not get huffy about the fact that they initially treat you like a threat.
Guess what? They don't know you. You have a gun. You're a potential threat in their mind, and rightfully so. Be polite and professional to the officers and odds are they will figure out that you aren't up to any nefarious purposes with your blaster. They will ask for your ID and confirm that you aren't a prohibited person and then you'll be on your way.
Yes, it sucks that you have to worry about getting 911 called on you for simply exercising your God-given rights, but that's the world we live in and nobody can fix it right now.
What is important is that if you do interact with the police because some hysterical ninny dials 911 on you, that you treat the incident as an opportunity to be a good ambassador for the cause of citizens carrying a means of self defense. You don't have to be happy about the fact that you have to chat with the cops, but you also don't have to be a jerk to them.
They have a job to do and if you were wearing their duty belt you'd be doing the exact same thing. Police have to deal with combative a$$holes all the time....you'd be amazed at how they react to dealing with someone who is polite and professional with them. Treat the officers with respect and cooperate with them in helping to clear up this misunderstanding and it will go a long way to helping them realize that the person who dialed 911 was a moron.
We in Virginia have quite a bit of experience dealing with this phenomenon thanks to our idiot laws that require exposing a carry gun when in an establishment that serves alcohol. There have been several unpleasant interactions with the police and CCW holders who had 911 dialed on them because some idiot in the restaurant was terrified of a group of people who came in the restaurant with HOLSTERED WEAPONS, sat down and friggin' ordered.
Honestly....how many thug gangs do you see placing an order before they shoot the place up? The interactions went poorly either because the officers responding had BA disease, or because the CCW holders gave the officers 'tude. I don't know which because I wasn't there, but I'd wager it was a bit of both.
Nothing good comes from trying to give a cop attitude. Ever.
Open carry is NOT "attention whoring" as I've heard dunderheads on other boards put it. It is a PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE MODE OF CARRY FOR SELF DEFENSE. Open carry can PREVENT having to draw a gun to defend your life. I know of a few real life incidents where bad guys have decided not to try and victimize people who were openly carrying. If the same people had been carrying concealed they would have likely faced a situation where they needed to actually use the weapon to stop the attack. In these cases the bad guys saw that the weapon was there and the bad guys decided to find easier prey.
Open carry is a choice like any other...it has benefits and liabilities. Know what they are, figure out what makes the most sense for you, and then prepare to deal with the potential liabilities.
My 2 cents.
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:45
Please enlighten me as to where this would be legal.
It's legal in Virginia.
You'll likely have to have a nice chat with the police about the rifle slung over your shoulder while you walk down main street, but it's legal.
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:48
If you're dressed neatly and your gun(s) is (are) carried in a proper holster, you might not even be noticed by most people.
...Or if they notice they assume you are a cop.
I maintain that the problem there in most cases is the observer.
There is no right to "not be offended," which is what this is.
I am not offended with open carry, just don't have any respect for those whom are not "PRUDENT" WHERE they open carry.
Just cause something is legal don't mean it deserves respect or is right.
By the way open carry as well as owning a handgun has not been a "RIGHT" for a very long time.....its a Privilege
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:51
One thing that hasn't been covered. I don't know about Ohio, but here in Kentucky, courts have held that even though open carry is legal, it can be Disorderly Conduct if the person is carrying openly in an area where it causes "alarm to the general public." How do we know if it's causing "alarm to the general public?" Usually when they dial 911. If you are walking around in Louisville or Lexington with an openly carried gun, you are going to be talking to the police. Out in the rural areas, probably not. This is one of the reasons behind the CCW license in the first place. If nobody see the gun then it's not an issue.
There are a number of statutes about carrying weapons to "terrorize" the public in various states, but typically there are some objective requirements that have to be met before someone can be charged with that if I remember correctly.
A guy whose sole cause of concern is carrying a holstered weapon would seem to be difficult to charge with disorderly conduct...else you could make the same charges about police officers.
It's legal in Virginia.
You'll likely have to have a nice chat with the police about the rifle slung over your shoulder while you walk down main street, but it's legal.
I deleted my post instead of editing for clarification, but you're too fast for me. I was thinking of major metropolitan areas, NYC, WDC, etc.
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:52
By the way open carry as well as owning a handgun has not been a "RIGHT" for a very long time.....its a Privilege
Uhhh.....
I know it's fashionable for stupid people to believe that the right to keep and bear doesn't REALLY mean we have a right to keep and bear, but that doesn't change what the Constitution says.
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 15:54
I deleted my post instead of editing for clarification, but you're too fast for me. I was thinking of major metropolitan areas, NYC, WDC, etc.
Absolutely.
In NYC they'd burn you at the stake. Hell, they don't even let COPS carry in NYC.
...which is why most of NYC's politicians and police brass need to be demoted to cleaning up dog poo in Central Park.
Open carry is fine and dandy if you chose to go that route, but if you openly carry into a populated area BE PREPARED TO HAVE A NICE CHAT WITH THE POLICE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU ARE CARRYING. When you do have the chat with the police do not get huffy about the fact that they initially treat you like a threat.
Guess what? They don't know you. You have a gun. You're a potential threat in their mind, and rightfully so. Be polite and professional to the officers and odds are they will figure out that you aren't up to any nefarious purposes with your blaster. They will ask for your ID and confirm that you aren't a prohibited person and then you'll be on your way.
Why don't they just assume that everyone is armed or could otherwise harm them, and treat everyone equally? It seems foolish to somehow become more alert to danger when you see someone who has a gun in a holster and is otherwise non-threatening, and relax around people who you just assume aren't carrying any kind of weapon because you can't see it.
John_Wayne777
12-21-07, 17:33
Why don't they just assume that everyone is armed or could otherwise harm them, and treat everyone equally? It seems foolish to somehow become more alert to danger when you see someone who has a gun in a holster and is otherwise non-threatening, and relax around people who you just assume aren't carrying any kind of weapon because you can't see it.
Cops have to be on guard whenever they respond to a call....
But that doesn't mean they respond to each call equally...the situation dictates the response.
The same is true of any individual whether they are LE or not. If there's someone suspicious on your property, you check them out with caution even if it turns out to be the flower delivery guy. If the guy hopping out of the non-descript white van is openly packing a handgun, wouldn't you approach the situation with even more caution?
The phenomenon I was mainly referring to is the idea a lot of folks have that the cops should be able to just tell that they are a good guy and shouldn't ask for ID or bother to investigate a call for service. While police do indeed develop a good feel for scumbags and non-scumbags after some time on the job, it's not like they can feel a disturbance in the force or anything. They don't know who you are and on a "man with a gun" call they are going to be in less of a jovial mood than they otherwise might be....
Folks need to understand that possibility ahead of time and it will help their interaction with LE go more smoothly.
BushmasterFanBoy
12-21-07, 18:12
I didn't see any reason to pull out the AR, let alone point it at him. One officer could have handled the situation with a drawn handgun, that is assuming of course, if the man had even reacted violently.
Besides, there was no reason to stop him at all.
Simply because someone looks like they are doing something that is "scary" is no excuse to arrest them unless they violated the property owner's wishes (assuming they are carrying on someone else's private property), or they begin to engage in violent behavior.
Until either of those conditions are met, IMHO the police are in the wrong.
I didn't see any reason to pull out the AR, let alone point it at him. One officer could have handled the situation with a drawn handgun, that is assuming of course, if the man had even reacted violently.
Besides, there was no reason to stop him at all.
Simply because someone looks like they are doing something that is "scary" is no excuse to arrest them unless they violated the property owner's wishes (assuming they are carrying on someone else's private property), or they begin to engage in violent behavior.
Until either of those conditions are met, IMHO the police are in the wrong.
When it comes down to a person with a gun call you will never handle the call alone if other officers are available. Strength in numbers. As far as the use of the patrol rifle. The saying is the pistol is a oh crap defensive weapon. When you have the time to grab it and you know you are going into a situation where weapons are involved you grab the rifle or shotgun. Who cares if it is a bigger weapon than the subject had. We are not paid to fight fair, we are paid to win if required to do so.
People have to understand. The whole thing began with a 911 call. Please realize, we have to respond to ALL 911 calls and investigate. That is just how it is. We have no choice. That is the simple truth and fact of the matter.
Ok, 911 was called. Officer responding to the call have to contact the parties involved including the man in the car. As has been mentioned here. You do not just walk up to someone you do not know who you know has a weapon. You do that once, it will be your last time as you we be dead. We have no special powers to read someones mind and intentions. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best. I am sorry, but I am not going to handle a man with a gun call in a suicidal manner just because he may have a CCW license and I don't want to offend him. If we both go home safe that day then it worked out the best way possible.
Now, I do not recall if this subject was actually "arrested," but just because you are in handcuffs doesn't not mean he is being arrested and charged. Many times subjects are placed in restraints for their and our safety. Once the investigation is complete and we confirm they are not a threat, the cuffs come off and they are released. To merely see someone if cuffs does not mean they were automatically hailed off to jail and charged with a crime.
BushmasterFanBoy
12-21-07, 18:50
When it comes down to a person with a gun call you will never handle the call alone if other officers are available. Strength in numbers. As far as the use of the patrol rifle. The saying is the pistol is a oh crap defensive weapon. When you have the time to grab it and you know you are going into a situation where weapons are involved you grab the rifle or shotgun. Who cares if it is a bigger weapon than the subject had. We are not paid to fight fair, we are paid to win if required to do so.
People have to understand. The whole thing began with a 911 call. Please realize, we have to respond to ALL 911 calls and investigate. That is just how it is. We have no choice. That is the simple truth and fact of the matter.
Ok, 911 was called. Officer responding to the call have to contact the parties involved including the man in the car. As has been mentioned here. You do not just walk up to someone you do not know who you know has a weapon. You do that once, it will be your last time as you we be dead. We have no special powers to read someones mind and intentions. Prepare for the worst and pray for the best. I am sorry, but I am not going to handle a man with a gun call in a suicidal manner just because he may have a CCW license and I don't want to offend him. If we both go home safe that day then it worked out the best way possible.
Now, I do not recall if this subject was actually "arrested," but just because you are in handcuffs doesn't not mean he is being arrested and charged. Many times subjects are placed in restraints for their and our safety. Once the investigation is complete and we confirm they are not a threat, the cuffs come off and they are released. To merely see someone if cuffs does not mean they were automatically hailed off to jail and charged with a crime.
That's fair, but I saw no violent action by the man (granted, he was in a vehicle) that necessitated actually shouldering the rifle and aiming at him. I don't blame the officers for wanting the rifle, but the situation at that point had no need for it. No one had shot any rounds, there was no crime in progress (other than trespassing, assuming the man had been on private property against the owners wishes as a result of him displaying the open carried firearm[s]) Please tell me officers do not respond to trespassing calls with AR's at the ready?
That's fair, but I saw no violent action by the man (granted, he was in a vehicle) that necessitated actually shouldering the rifle and aiming at him. I don't blame the officers for wanting the rifle, but the situation at that point had no need for it. No one had shot any rounds, there was no crime in progress (other than trespassing, assuming the man had been on private property against the owners wishes as a result of him displaying the open carried firearm[s]) Please tell me officers do not respond to trespassing calls with AR's at the ready?
Thats how rifles are carried. On any felony or high risk stop weapons will be directed toward the vehicle and the occupant(s). Otherwise you wouldn't have the weapon out of the case and/or holster.
Just because no shots have been fired can we relax. He is armed and you do not know who he is, thus he is a threat until he is in custody and you are able to align all of the pieces and figure out exactly what is going on.
There are two sides to every story and most likely he did something to draw attention to himself aside from just tresspassing and standing on someone elses property. As far as how I would respond; if it was a tresspassing and no weapons were mentioned no I would not have a long gun. But, if a weapon was mentioned, yes, I would have the long gun out. Too often people who call 911 are distraught and make no sense. You go on a "simple" call because that is how the caller makes it appear and you arrive on scene and it is more serious than they described. To be fair, it also works vice versa.
In the short time frame that we are allowed to view the incident the officer's acted appropriately. They utilized good officer safety and did what they had to do given the situation. Now, had six officers run up and drug him from the car like they'd just been in a pursuit, then yes, we'd have problems with the whole thing.
If an LEO gets antsy and wants his weapon out, I can understand where he is coming from. I won't be happy if he POINTS it at me without a good reason, mind you, but I'm not going to flip out (right there, anyways). I've had deputies pull me over late at night (headlight was out) and call in another car for backup, and have another deputy to cover my vehicle while talking to me, but where and when I was that was a no brainer.
I don't open carry anywhere where someone who might make a scene about it can ask me to leave - malls, other retail, etc.
Until last week I was a student and worked at a job that absolutely prohibited firearms (rentacop), so I rarely carried during "everyday" sorts of stuff. Since I usually only carried while going to friends' houses, traveling, or in the outdoors, I carried openly frequently. No LEO has *ever* given me even a passing comment about it, nor have they ever commented on the carrying of long arms (AR's/NFA) when I've happened to run into them (which happens with surprising frequency).
I'm not saying to carry openly, but I draw two lessons from this;
(1) Don't look or act like a dirtbag, and LEO's won't give you a hard time.
(2) To quote Chris Rock - "OBEY THE LAW!"
... and you probably won't have trouble.
BushmasterFanBoy
12-21-07, 19:46
Thats how rifles are carried. On any felony or high risk stop weapons will be directed toward the vehicle and the occupant(s). Otherwise you wouldn't have the weapon out of the case and/or holster.
Just because no shots have been fired can we relax. He is armed and you do not know who he is, thus he is a threat until he is in custody and you are able to align all of the pieces and figure out exactly what is going on.
There are two sides to every story and most likely he did something to draw attention to himself aside from just tresspassing and standing on someone elses property. As far as how I would respond; if it was a tresspassing and no weapons were mentioned no I would not have a long gun. But, if a weapon was mentioned, yes, I would have the long gun out. Too often people who call 911 are distraught and make no sense. You go on a "simple" call because that is how the caller makes it appear and you arrive on scene and it is more serious than they described. To be fair, it also works vice versa.
In the short time frame that we are allowed to view the incident the officer's acted appropriately. They utilized good officer safety and did what they had to do given the situation. Now, had six officers run up and drug him from the car like they'd just been in a pursuit, then yes, we'd have problems with the whole thing.
I can obviously see wanting the long gun out, but to actually point it at him seems to be bringing the man's life into unnecessary danger. I wouldn't have an issue if the officers had responded with the rifle at a low ready, as we all know, it is best to bring a rifle to a (at this point potential) gunfight. But to aim the rifle at him seems to be threatening a man's life who is at this point not acting in any threatening manner. When the man becomes a threat, begins reaching for a gun, or makes a sudden movement, that's when the AR is brought on target. It's safer, and does not slow the officer down given that the suspect is currently not acting in a threatening manner.
I can obviously see wanting the long gun out, but to actually point it at him seems to be bringing the man's life into unnecessary danger. I wouldn't have an issue if the officers had responded with the rifle at a low ready, as we all know, it is best to bring a rifle to a (at this point potential) gunfight. But to aim the rifle at him seems to be threatening a man's life who is at this point not acting in any threatening manner. When the man becomes a threat, begins reaching for a gun, or makes a sudden movement, that's when the AR is brought on target. It's safer, and does not slow the officer down given that the suspect is currently not acting in a threatening manner.
You just won't see that. On felony/high risk stops, approaching high risk subjects or putting someone on the ground at gunpoint, the gun is always pointed at them (finger off the trigger obviously.) The streets are not the range and the safety rules don't always apply. That said... common sense comes into play and blantantly putting the safety of someone at risk should never be tolerated!
Anyways, as said... you just will not see an officer do that. Everytime I or someone I work with has had to go to gunpoint then the gun is on the person. If there was no threat the gun wouldn't even be out to begin with. Every tenth of a second it take you to react to an action of the subject/suspect is a tenth of a second to long. He gets inside your reactionary loop and you are screwed and on the defensive.
Disclaimer: To just get it out there. I can see where some who have no experience in law enforcement and working the streets may see these comments as over the top. But that is just the way it is. Personally, I'd rather not have to draw on someone. I honestly don't even like guns. I am not anti-gun or anti-Second Amendment I just am not into guns. I do what I do to simply be the best at my job and since weapons fall in that category I do whatever I can to own the best equipment available and the most knowledge available to emply those weapons if needed. So please, do not take any comments and/or opinions posted her as me being anti-freedom (rights, etc.), it's just an effort to relay what has to be done on the street in the tenth of a second you have a chance to widow your family or save someones life.
BushmasterFanBoy
12-21-07, 20:13
You just won't see that. On felony/high risk stops, approaching high risk subjects or putting someone on the ground at gunpoint, the gun is always pointed at them (finger off the trigger obviously.) The streets are not the range and the safety rules don't always apply. That said... common sense comes into play and blantantly putting the safety of someone at risk should never be tolerated!
Anyways, as said... you just will not see an officer do that. Everytime I or someone I work with has had to go to gunpoint then the gun is on the person. If there was no threat the gun wouldn't even be out to begin with. Every tenth of a second it take you to react to an action of the subject/suspect is a tenth of a second to long. He gets inside your reactionary loop and you are screwed and on the defensive.
Disclaimer: To just get it out there. I can see where some who have no experience in law enforcement and working the streets may see these comments as over the top. But that is just the way it is. Personally, I'd rather not have to draw on someone. I honestly don't even like guns. I am not anti-gun or anti-Second Amendment I just am not into guns. I do what I do to simply be the best at my job and since weapons fall in that category I do whatever I can to own the best equipment available and the most knowledge available to emply those weapons if needed. So please, do not take any comments and/or opinions posted her as me being anti-freedom (rights, etc.), it's just an effort to relay what has to be done on the street in the tenth of a second you have a chance to widow your family or save someones life.
I can see where you have that view. I would too if it were my job, but LEO's are given more authority in the eyes of the people. Because of this, extra care should be taken. I didn't see the situation as needing a gun to be pointed at the suspect, but I can see where officers responding to a scene with limited information may want to have the edge in firepower, but it seemed to be introducing an element of unnecessary danger when the situation, at that point , didn't call for it.
Going from my personal shooting, getting a weapon from low ready to on target at that distance should take little to no time at all, I understand every fraction of a second counts, but at the point where the officers responded, I saw no reason to have the gun on target. It's not that hard to put the rifle on target at 15 feet, it is pretty hard to justify a negligent discharge at a man who committed no violent illegal act.
BTW, about not liking guns, that's fine. No one should really have to "like guns" just because their job involves carrying one. Being good with a gun is a must, but I see no reason why a person who carries a gun should take any kind of personal interest in it beyond maintaining it or being proficient with it. IMHO, the main contribution of the "gun community" should be to make using a gun easier and more user friendly to "non-gun" people, Military, LEO, and citizen alike.
BTW, about not liking guns, that's fine. No one should really have to "like guns" just because their job involves carrying one. Being good with a gun is a must, but I see no reason why a person who carries a gun should take any kind of personal interest in it beyond maintaining it or being proficient with it. IMHO, the main contribution of the "gun community" should be to make using a gun easier and more user friendly to "non-gun" people, Military, LEO, and citizen alike.
No biggie bro, was hoping to clearify that my stance is based merely on street experience and training as opposed to wanting to go to gun point on everyone we contact on calls. Only bad thing about the errornet, the loss in translation that the text induces.
There are a number of statutes about carrying weapons to "terrorize" the public in various states, but typically there are some objective requirements that have to be met before someone can be charged with that if I remember correctly.
A guy whose sole cause of concern is carrying a holstered weapon would seem to be difficult to charge with disorderly conduct...else you could make the same charges about police officers.
The part that you missed is the "causing alarm to the public" and we know they are alarmed because they picked up the phone and called 911. I have never heard of someone calling 911 and saying they were alarmed about a uniformed police officer carrying and gun. And if a plain clothes officer is flashing his gun around, he is just as stupid as the guy in the video.
I noticed that as well, but here again we have a short time to make a decison and you all have a life time to tear it apart.
It's a training and supervision issue.
(Careful with the "you all" please. Not all of us are wearing tin foil, and some of us do what he does for a living.)
LE absolutely should check out individuals who are acting outside the social norm, no matter the legality of said actions, it is an indicator of where that persons head is at.
Should a bunch of fellas be walking through my neighborhood with baseball bats (legal), I would expect LE to inquire...
I saw a guy detained for riding a skateboard down the road with a SKS on his shoulder. Turned out completely legit, most questionable social judgement, but legal.
And, HGARY2003, your constant inflamatory vein, in numerous threads shows no common sense. I would venture to say the rubberband of your acceptance here is stretching.
If someone, an adult who should at least have the situational awareness of a 10y/o, recognizing the general emotional feelings of the public about firearms chooses to display them making others uncomfortable... the should expect the public guardians to check them out. It's pretty safe to say said individual is a loner, neighbors wonder about him, socially inept, digging oneself into further isolation by listed actions, this fits the profile of some violent offenders.
Note social norms, not legality. In many rural areas open carry wouldn't get a second thought. In suburbia, well...
John_Wayne777
12-22-07, 11:58
The part that you missed is the "causing alarm to the public" and we know they are alarmed because they picked up the phone and called 911. I have never heard of someone calling 911 and saying they were alarmed about a uniformed police officer carrying and gun. And if a plain clothes officer is flashing his gun around, he is just as stupid as the guy in the video.
The laws aren't defined that way, however. The laws aren't written so that someone dialing 911 is sufficient to meet the criteria of causing "alarm". Some of the LEOs here can give you some examples of the criteria in their jurisdictions.
Plain clothes officers in my area rarely bother to truly conceal their weapon. They walk around in business casual attire with a handgun on their hip all the time....or with a Safariland drop leg holster on.
I would venture to say the rubberband of your acceptance here is stretching.
I would have used RIPPING...
Uhhh.....
I know it's fashionable for stupid people to believe that the right to keep and bear doesn't REALLY mean we have a right to keep and bear, but that doesn't change what the Constitution says.
Dude where have you been......if it were a "Right" you could walk in any weapons store and buy one without showing ID, filling out a form 4473 and a NICS background check. I know you can still do that at a gunshow but not for long........
You would be able to carry concealed or open if it where a "Right".........instead you have to take a class and get clearence via some form of gov agency...many cities & states say you must have a permit just to buy one..Unless you live in whats left of true america ALASKA which its going down hill as we speak with fruitcakes from the left.......
As I said, most of you in America it is a "Privilege" to own a handgun , let alone carry one. Constitution or not...........
HGARY2003, your constant inflamatory vein, in numerous threads shows no common sense. I would venture to say the rubberband of your acceptance here is stretching.
If someone, an adult who should at least have the situational awareness of a 10y/o, recognizing the general emotional feelings of the public about firearms chooses to display them making others uncomfortable... the should expect the public guardians to check them out. It's pretty safe to say said individual is a loner, neighbors wonder about him, socially inept, digging oneself into further isolation by listed actions, this fits the profile of some violent offenders.
Note social norms, not legality. In many rural areas open carry wouldn't get a second thought. In suburbia, well...
I didn't post this topic to make any enemies here.. I do lean pretty far to the RIGHT.. Some have said that there are times when I lean too far that way..
I am very much pro second amendment, and in my personal view I don't believe people should be pulled over, pulled out of their car at gun point, handcuffed and questioned like a criminal just because they made a choice to exercise their legal right to carry.
Some have said he should not have open carried.. Okay go back and look at the video again, where would he have carried a concealed weapon?
I'm sorry some of you don't understand my point of view on this, I have a very good friend that is a State Trooper here, I e-mailed him that video a few weeks ago, his reply was same as mine, he would be pissed.. It doesn't make since to act that way towards a man that isn't doing anything wrong..
But people don't always see everything the exact same way, I guess that is clear and just part of the world we live in today, some poeple think that repeat child sex offenders should get longer jail terms, Bullchit" I personaly believe they should be put to death, a slow and violent death ~ I've never heard of a dead pedophile hurting a child.. But some people disagree with me because they claim messing with a child is not a death penalty crime.. Well it is when it comes to my children.. Some people don't like or agree with my views, that's fine.. Their mine..
I'm sorry if this video or topic offended anyone, I didn't post it for that purpose..
John_Wayne777
12-22-07, 18:15
I didn't post this topic to make any enemies here.. I do lean pretty far to the RIGHT.. Some have said that there are times when I lean too far that way..
Leaning to the right is one thing....
Posting about how you would break into the houses of police officers and tear the place up is quite another.
That's going to draw the kind of spotlight on you that you really don't want.
Leaning to the right is one thing....
Posting about how you would break into the houses of police officers and tear the place up is quite another.
That's going to draw the kind of spotlight on you that you really don't want.
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Wrong topic buddy.. I believe that one was closed, so your wanting to bring it here?
Besides I was talking out my ass when I said that okay.. I am not about to ever think of breaking into anyones home for any reason, that is "criminal" and I have zero tolerance for criminals..
That topic is closed, so let's leave it alone.
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Wrong topic buddy.. I believe that one was closed, so your wanting to bring it here?
Besides I was talking out my ass when I said that okay.. I am not about to ever think of breaking into anyones home for any reason, that is "criminal" and I have zero tolerance for criminals..
That topic is closed, so let's leave it alone.
You are right that you were talking out your ass, to use your words. I have to say, you are one of the main reasons the other topic was closed. Dano was giving you a wake up call. You should take it.
ETA: Dano is a respected IP here for a reason. Debate is fine, but leave at debate. The watchword on this forum is RESPECT; respect for others and their opinions.
You are right that you were talking out your ass, to use your words. I have to say, you are one of the main reasons the other topic was closed. Dano was giving you a wake up call. You should take it.
ETA: Dano is a respected IP here for a reason.
I don't need a wake up.. But thanks anyway..
I said I was wrong by what I said, I know damn well I was.. If it isn't too much trouble, Just Let it go..
Well bud, I think you do need a wake up call & here it is.....
Treat this place as if you would any other gathering of professionals having technical discourse. When you take a seat at the table, bring something with you besides a random psuedo-political diatribe.
As in any gathering of like minded: law abiding, respecting the sancity of life, individuals, you can get shown the door for expressing ill-informed &/or illegal intent.
You express how you would break into LE officers homes, torture supposed criminals, etc.
You don't "lean to the right" you swim in river kook-ville
Do note: you have no "right" to be here. This place is for free association of like minded individuals, and someone is paying the bill... if your not value added, don't let the door hit you......
Dude where have you been......if it were a "Right" you could walk in any weapons store and buy one without showing ID, filling out a form 4473 and a NICS background check. I know you can still do that at a gunshow but not for long........
*cough* Just thought I'd point out that no, you still have to do a 4473 at gunshows, when you buy from the tables... it's just the face to face private sales you (in many states) don't need it for, just like such sales anywhere else.
To Hgary2003:
You are correct. Felons are not "normally" given CCW's, altho who knows what happens on the Left Coast. And there are a few CCW holders who go out and commit felonies and lose their license. It happens to maybe 1% of permit-holders; haven't done a web-search.
ZGXtreme says it well, that he'll follow his script and do what he has to do so that he can go home each nite. One of my sons-in-law is a long-time cop, and his job isn't easy.
Perhaps the guy with the gun in the mall area was legal, but there's a heck of a lot of old women in that mall who don't know the law, and they figure a man with a gun is a threat to general safety. After the mall shootings recently, ya can't blame 'em too much. Ignorance is their excuse; you won't change it.
I have carried concealed in 6 states (legally) and noone has ever noticed my gun. However, I once knew a guy in PA who got his CCW and immediately slapped his gun on the bar when the bartender was too slow with his drink. What an ass! The bartender kicked his ass out of the bar; said "Don't come back."
Carry concealed if you're legal, but you have responsibility (under the law) to not worry the general public needlessly. That in itself is illegal in Florida under the Concealed Weapons Law, I believe.
Sonny
Don Robison
12-22-07, 23:38
Hey Don no offense man your reading comprehension skills are lacking, I covered your first 2 questions in my last post, and the answer to your 3rd question has been answered because I have already asked the same question.
No offense taken, my reading skills and comprehension are fine. At the point they made the stop they didn't know who was driving. They handled the call the way a "man with a gun" call is handled. The guy drew attention to himself both with open carry and his choice in fashion. They didn't arrest him, they detained him to check him out based on a complaint from another person. They don't get to choose which complaints they will check out.
and done.
Hgary is gone and this thread can die. The rationale has been explained - and one can debate whether or not societal norns are wrong till we are blue in the face.
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