View Full Version : Ak 47 vs. Ak 74 Which? and Why?
Cajun_ArLover
02-10-12, 10:57
HI all I posted this on another board but I think I'm more confused now than I was Before so maybe you can help.
Last year I was interested buying an Ak type rifle but things didnt pan out like I wanted so I had to put it on hold, but this year I'm sure I'm getting one.
I was pretty sure I was going with a 74 but after doing a little bit of research I realized that I had a better variety of ammo with the 47 and I've also been reading that there is an issue with 5.45x 39 Barrels "key-holing" due to being cut wrong, I think it would also be pertinent to mention that i already have a nice AR so maybe going with a larger caliber might be cool too. My choices in the Ak 74 are the 5.45 Waffen Werks Bulgarian Poly http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1003.aspx which will cost about $700 with shipping and transfer (not bad) , the other is Red jacket Ak 74 http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct1070.aspx which will cost around $900 with shipping and transfer but has a lifetime warranty and finally there is the Arsenal brand Ak 74 SGL31-61 http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct890.aspx which will be a bit less than $900 with S&T.
If I decide on AK47 Wafen Werks and Rj are out and I'm going with Arsenal Ak 47 SGL 21-61 http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct838.aspx which will cost right at $850 with S&T
So that's why here asking you guys the question AK47 or AK74 , which and why? Let the opinions fly! Thanks for your time.
parishioner
02-10-12, 11:21
You might find this thread helpful....https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=68044
Cajun_ArLover
02-10-12, 11:48
You might find this thread helpful....https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=68044
Thanx for that, it was.
Wait a few more weeks to see what else K-Var puts up for sale.
I was told they are getting a complete re-stock very soon.
I personally would wait for a carbine 5.45 (~12") side folder.
I already have a 12" side folder and I would get another one anyway. They are that awesome.
CumbiaDude
02-10-12, 21:30
Personally, I would recommend you get an Arsenal, whichever caliber you choose. The Waffen Werks rifle you posted has an American barrel (not hammer forged), and the Red Jacket rifle doesn't specify (plus I saw one particularly horrible Red Jacket rifle - my own builds were better quality). An Arsenal has a fresh factory barrel made on all the right tooling - you know it's good. No problems with keyholing from factory barrels.
As for 7.62x39 vs 5.45, it's a personal preference. I have one of each (that's the real answer :D) but I haven't used them enough side-by-side to give an honest opinion. 7.62x39 has a bigger hole, but more recoil and poorer ballistics. 5.45 is easier to hit at range, since your errors aren't as critical. In fact, the 5.45 tends to have half as much drop or deflection from wind as the 7.62x39 (generalilzation).
They're both great, and they're both still in use. I wouldn't worry about ammo variety, though - 7.62x39 does have a lot, but 5.45 is just now starting to get new ammo out (Hornady's VMAX, for example). I think if you were to do 5.45, better to get in now than later.
morbidbattlecry
02-10-12, 23:24
Something else to think about. If you shoot cheaply with the 5.45 your going to have to clean you gun every time you shoot. That cheap 5.45 is corrosive. That's something that turned me off to 5.45.
Just hit it with the garden hose or stick it in the sink and run hot water through it. The corrosive ammo is not a big deal.
Mike
dirt_diver
02-11-12, 00:11
Are the muzzlebreaks on the Arsenals removable? I'd like to try the Battlecomp AKBC, but I thought I'd read somewhere the Arsenal's mb is welded.
They're a pain in the ass to take off after they're carbon fouled but they are removable.
Cajun_ArLover
02-11-12, 00:28
Personally, I would recommend you get an Arsenal, whichever caliber you choose. The Waffen Werks rifle you posted has an American barrel (not hammer forged), and the Red Jacket rifle doesn't specify (plus I saw one particularly horrible Red Jacket rifle - my own builds were better quality). An Arsenal has a fresh factory barrel made on all the right tooling - you know it's good. No problems with keyholing from factory barrels.
As for 7.62x39 vs 5.45, it's a personal preference. I have one of each (that's the real answer :D) but I haven't used them enough side-by-side to give an honest opinion. 7.62x39 has a bigger hole, but more recoil and poorer ballistics. 5.45 is easier to hit at range, since your errors aren't as critical. In fact, the 5.45 tends to have half as much drop or deflection from wind as the 7.62x39 (generalilzation).
They're both great, and they're both still in use. I wouldn't worry about ammo variety, though - 7.62x39 does have a lot, but 5.45 is just now starting to get new ammo out (Hornady's VMAX, for example). I think if you were to do 5.45, better to get in now than later.
Thank you
CumbiaDude
02-11-12, 00:59
Just hit it with the garden hose or stick it in the sink and run hot water through it. The corrosive ammo is not a big deal.+1 If you look at the chemistry of potassium chloride (which I have ;)) you find that the best solvent is... water! 900 times better than ammonia.
Are the muzzlebreaks on the Arsenals removable? I'd like to try the Battlecomp AKBC, but I thought I'd read somewhere the Arsenal's mb is welded.On a standard rifle, yes. The only ones that wouldn't be removable would be perm-attached ones to avoid SBR stuff - I don't know if they have any of those.
Thank youYW, dude! Good luck :)
dirt_diver
02-11-12, 01:12
Awesome. Thanks for the answers.
I have both, if your just plinking and target shooting get the 545 ammo is cheap 10-12cents a round normally, without even looking to hard.
If you ever plan on hunting with it the 762x39 is a good cartridge for deer/boar sized animals.
Either would do for SD if needed. My 545 has almost no recoil, its fun to shoot. 762 x39 doesn't have hard recoil, it just has annoying muzzle flip. l put a jtac47 brake on mine and its much better now though.
I also recommend arsenal, or even converting a saiga. You can have a nice russian ak with a saiga for 450ish for a basic back end converted rifle. If you plan on converting the whole rifle fsb,gb,hangards,threading barrel for brake, etc, your probably better off just buying the arsenal to begin with (ask me how l know). good luck
Are the muzzlebreaks on the Arsenals removable? I'd like to try the Battlecomp AKBC, but I thought I'd read somewhere the Arsenal's mb is welded.
The AK74 muzzlebreak is fantastic. I don't know why you'd want to change it.
DeltaSierra
02-11-12, 10:36
Personally, I would recommend you get an Arsenal, whichever caliber you choose. The Waffen Werks rifle you posted has an American barrel (not hammer forged), and the Red Jacket rifle doesn't specify (plus I saw one particularly horrible Red Jacket rifle - my own builds were better quality). An Arsenal has a fresh factory barrel made on all the right tooling - you know it's good. No problems with keyholing from factory barrels.
As for 7.62x39 vs 5.45, it's a personal preference. I have one of each (that's the real answer :D) but I haven't used them enough side-by-side to give an honest opinion. 7.62x39 has a bigger hole, but more recoil and poorer ballistics. 5.45 is easier to hit at range, since your errors aren't as critical. In fact, the 5.45 tends to have half as much drop or deflection from wind as the 7.62x39 (generalilzation).
They're both great, and they're both still in use. I wouldn't worry about ammo variety, though - 7.62x39 does have a lot, but 5.45 is just now starting to get new ammo out (Hornady's VMAX, for example). I think if you were to do 5.45, better to get in now than later.
^^ Good advice .
As a user of Arsenal rifles, I find them to be very high quality, and well worth the money.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-12, 11:52
Owning both I'd say '47.
Why?
Because it's .30 caliber.
The AK74 muzzlebreak is fantastic. I don't know why you'd want to change it.
I prefer to have a flash suppressor.
With a good muzzle brake and recoil reducing stock on a 7.62x39, I don't know how you could argue about recoil anymore. The weight difference between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 mags isn't as huge as people like to think. Basing on the weights of AR mags, the difference would be about only 2 pounds for 210 rounds. For accuracy and trajectory, I'll have to give it to the 74 guys. Can't argue it's a more accurate round with a better trajectory.
dirt_diver
02-11-12, 13:19
The AK74 muzzlebreak is fantastic. I don't know why you'd want to change it.
But the AKBC is the best of both worlds, so to me the question would be why not use it?
I'm not interested in good enough, especially if I can buy better.
One more thing you might want to take into consideration is the mag issue. 74 mags are harder to come by than 47 mags. Not too many suppliers seem to have them right now and prices have been going up. A year ago, poly mags were ~13-15 bucks. Now they are hard to find for less than 20 and there is a very limited selection.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-12, 14:28
One more thing you might want to take into consideration is the mag issue. 74 mags are harder to come by than 47 mags. Not too many suppliers seem to have them right now and prices have been going up. A year ago, poly mags were ~13-15 bucks. Now they are hard to find for less than 20 and there is a very limited selection.
Truth. I got into '74s back in '04 after the AWB sunset. I bought '74 NIB never issued Bulgarian "circle 10" mil-spec mags for under $5.00 a pop.
I still have boxes of mags unopened. ;)
These days you'll be lucky if you can find them and when you do there $30-$40.
DeltaSierra
02-11-12, 14:31
One more thing you might want to take into consideration is the mag issue. 74 mags are harder to come by than 47 mags. Not too many suppliers seem to have them right now and prices have been going up. A year ago, poly mags were ~13-15 bucks. Now they are hard to find for less than 20 and there is a very limited selection.
K-Var keeps a pretty good supply of Bulgarian Circle 10 magazines for the 5.45 rifles.
If you get into the 5.45 rifles, you just have to accept that to save money on ammo, you will pay a bit more for the mags....
morbidbattlecry
02-11-12, 14:38
If your going to go with the 7.62, aim has a pretty awesome deal on "Surplus European" mags for 10 dollers a pop. They are really nice steel mags and have no rib in the back.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-12, 14:40
K-Var keeps a pretty good supply of Bulgarian Circle 10 magazines for the 5.45 rifles.
Currently they only OD Green and 45 rounders in stock.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=418
Bakelites are getting harder to come by and so are the Black "circle 10"s.
Of course one can still find the Polish Tantal steel '74 mags from time to time on various sites.
Yup. Just wanting to point out that the mag thing is definitely something to think about beforehand. I typically like to have 10 - 15 mags per firearm. When you can get ~10 dollar steel mags all day long for the 47, and mags range from 20-40 for the 74 right now, the difference is substantial. And right now, I mean if you wanted to buy mags for your 74 online today, you are stuck with OD green from Kvar, a few places with the somewhat less desirable poly polish or steel mags (~17-25), overpriced russian plum (22-30) and east german bakelite (30-40). Or you troll the marketplace everyday and hope to get lucky! The bulgarian mags, which most believe are the best, are very hard to find right now except in the forum for sale ads. And people have been pouncing on those as soon as they come up.
I am not trying to push the op towards the 47 (I just got a 74 the other week and have been slowly amassing my mag stash for a few months), just it is slim pickings right now and prices never seem to go down, even if more supply makes it into the market.
CumbiaDude
02-11-12, 17:54
The weight difference between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 mags isn't as huge as people like to think. Basing on the weights of AR mags, the difference would be about only 2 pounds for 210 rounds.Izhmash plum 5.45 loaded 513 g/18.1 oz.
steel (various) 7.62 loaded 830-848 g/28-29.91 oz.
Seven loaded 30rd plum magazines weigh 3.591 kg/7.917 lbs
Seven loaded 30rd steel magazines weigh 5.880 kg/12.96 lbs
So about 8lbs and 13 lbs. More like 5 lbs difference :)
eta: My lightest 30rd 7.62 mags weigh 798 g/28.15 oz loaded, which makes it 5.586 kg/12.32 lbs - That's only 4.4 lbs more for 7.62 :D
train of abuses
02-12-12, 22:49
From a ballistics point of view, I have seen Gary Roberts post that the 7.62 x 39 is superior to the 5.45 round.
CumbiaDude
02-13-12, 00:13
From a ballistics point of view, I have seen Gary Roberts post that the 7.62 x 39 is superior to the 5.45 round.Depends on what's meant by "ballistics". 5.45 is flatter shooting and easier to get a hit on with extended range or wind. If you mean terminal ballistics, the 7N6 5.45 round tumbles much better than the M43 7.62 round, but the M67 7.62 round tumbles about the same and leaves a bigger hole. 5.45 ricochets around in buildings where 7.62 doesn't. Neither one fragments unless you use commercial ammo.
Link to stickied post (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19885)
train of abuses
02-13-12, 01:21
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30344&highlight=ak47
I was thinking of his response on this thread when asked, "Which one would be the more practical gun for range, home, and SHTF?"
His response was:
"AK47 in 7.62x39mm."
But I see what you are saying with the other data and the variables involved with comparing FMJ to FMJ types, longer range vs better penetration up close, etc.
BullittBoy
02-13-12, 14:17
Whatever caliber you decide on please stay away from all these "cobbled" together parts guns and buy an Arsenal.
The only thing that sucks about the Arsenal is the painted on finish is not going to stand up to much and will come off if you use any aerosol cleaners. The newer guns are mostly Russian (barrel, receiver, and bolt group) and will hold its value better than any of the others out there now.
The 5.45 is way more fun to shoot, and can be shot with ease by women and children. If you have a family this is what I would recommend. The 7.62 after about 100-150 rounds may start to shove around some smaller folks or recoil sensitive folks. They both have cheap ammo in non-corrosive and the 5.45 wins if you don't mind corrosive.
The 5.45 without a doubt (and I have owned and shot about 7 of them from Romanian, Bulgarian, and Russian flavors) will outshoot a 7.62 gun at 100 yards. I have shot Chinese, Bulgarian, Romanian, and Russian 7.62's and compared to the 5.45's using same mil-spec Wolf, Uly, or Barnaul (brown and silver Bears) the 5.45 is a more intrinsically accurate round, so if this means anything to you think about it.
The 7.62 will kill stuff dead and will always have cheap mags, this is an advantage for it.
I have made AK fans with two 5.45's -an Arsenal SLR105R and a SGL-31, they both are more accurate than they have any right to be as an AK is concerned. The Bulgarian SLR105 actually has an awesome trigger and a US length stock, it is a great AK and one of the most accurate Kalashnikov weapons I have shot-it will put 20 rounds into a 2" square at 50 yards and 10 rounds into about 2-2.5" at 100.
I have shot 5 shot groups of 1.25" at 100, with Wolf 70 grain and open sights, back when I was a couple years younger and had less kids:D
Well you asked for opinions.... I think the lack of punch the 5.45 is concerning to me compared to a 7.62. If I want a 22 caliber and superior accuracy I use my AR which is already on the lower end regarding rifle type power but still better than the 5.45 in every way. I also believe at least a little bit of the famous AK reliability comes from the shape of the 7.62..some people may think I'm full of it for saying that. I also think that the advantage of a flatter shooting 5.45 is not an advantage for me because I don't expect to ever shoot more than a 100-150 maybe 200 yards for any tactical reason or situation, and the 7.62 does just fine in those distances. The actual reality is more like 5-75 being that is the size of my yard.
You don't have to buy into the Arsenal is the only way though, there are some great builders out there. The Arsenal is a great rifle and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one, but not the only choice. I would not give Red Jacket any of my money due to so many problems lately and frankly they don't deserve it, but I have heard good things about Waffen works.
Opinions are just that, so there ya go.
Something else to think about. If you shoot cheaply with the 5.45 your going to have to clean you gun every time you shoot. That cheap 5.45 is corrosive. That's something that turned me off to 5.45.
Not really. I have an AK74 that I have not cleaned in years after shooting corrosive ammo and not a spot of rust in it. Yes I am doing it on purpose and i do not recommend it for you, just saying, Your rifle is not going to turn into a ball of rust because of corrosive ammo.
Scotter260
02-14-12, 12:54
Not really. I have an AK74 that I have not cleaned in years after shooting corrosive ammo and not a spot of rust in it. Yes I am doing it on purpose and i do not recommend it for you, just saying, Your rifle is not going to turn into a ball of rust because of corrosive ammo.
Wow, I just ran 180 rounds of Russian surplus 5.45 through mine yesterday afternoon, sprayed it down pretty well with soapy water when I got home and rust was forming in the nooks and crannies this morning when I broke it down to clean it. I guess YMMV applies here.
CumbiaDude
02-14-12, 15:55
What'd you do to get the water out? Gotta use WD-40 or something to displace it :)
My 74 got some rust cuz I didn't hose it down well enough (I just popped the back open and took out the bolt carrier to hose it down). Got some rust in the muzzle brake and gas cylinder. Next time, I'll just give those a special hosing. No biggie.
I havent put any water on mine, no oil either other than on the rails. Shot it and put it away and so far NOTHING. I shot Soviet and Bulgy surplus. I don't know what to say about your rifles. Maybe I got the only good one. Seriously though, I have no idea why mine has no rust whatsoever. I just keep watching it to see. At some point I will clean it, I guess.
If you do flush yours after shooting corrosive ammo, make sure you put some oil on it though. I would also make sure the bore has plenty of oil before I put it away as well as the bolt, and the muzzle brake both inside and out. remember to wipe it off before you shoot again though.
As to the original question. I really have a hard time deciding which one is the best choice becasue these two calibers really complement each other. I really like the AK74 for its soft shooting characteristics, it also shoots very flat. In short it is an absolute joy to shoot. The AK47/AKM hits harder, and yes mags are cheaper. It would really depend what I am using it for. The real answer is one of each, but if I had to chose I would probably go with an Arsenal SGL21 and then get the SGL31 or an SLR105 if at all possible. If you are going to use it just for fun though then absolutely, without question an AK74 variant. Preferably a Saiga or SLR105 and NOT a put together kit.
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