View Full Version : Well Now I'm Really Stumped....
So I've been dithering over what optic to put on my AR, and thought I had it decided but, now I'm stumped again.
Here's the thing:
Originally when I had my first rifle, I wanted an Eotech. Long story short, I got one and liked it, but sold it to fund other things.
I WAS going to replace it with an Aimpoint, as I found an RDS really simple and easy to use.
But lately I've become interested in more precision-oriented rifle shooting, and sort of want something I can "stretch my legs" with.
I thought, well, I'll get an Aimpoint and then a Magnifier- kill two birds with one stone.
But the more I thought about, I'm not sure that really is a good idea- it's going to cost about as much as a whole RDS just for the magnifier, and then I'll have to get a mount for it. Not to mention it's another "thing" on the rifle, and possibly even more weight (combined with RDS) than a traditional scope (no, I haven't weighed it all out yet). Also, it doesn't have a reticle, so if I need to use a holdover I'm stuck guessing. I have a scoped .22 with a basic crosshair reticle, and even that sucks for holdovers.
So I was like, forget that- I'll go with a 1-4x variable scope. Only 1 thing on the rifle, same or less weight, a few good options under bank-breaking dollars, has a real reticle, and with illumination, on 1x it would seem I could get away with using it like a red dot.
Then I went to a range the other day. They had an AK with a T1 on it, and it was so simple and easy to use that I am now back to square 1- red dot only.
As I am currently underfunded, my budget is around $500- trying to keep it proportionate to the cost of a good red dot. I may adjust up to ~$700 but it would have to be a pretty darn good reason.
What's a fellow to do?
pilotguyo540
02-11-12, 23:32
I sold my trijicon 1-4x about a year ago. I regret it. I still have my aim point T1. It's real good and real handy and real light weight, but the magnification option is worth the weight.
Id have a hard time going away from a good 1-4x. Ive used eotech and an aimpoint m3 as well as a couple cheap rds and as the post above mine states, the weight is well worth it. The advantage of the rds is in compromised shooting positions. The vortex viper models are tough to beat for the price point, I love mine and have another one on order that should be here this month.
Singlestack Wonder
02-12-12, 10:13
Meopta ZD
+1......
ICANHITHIMMAN
02-12-12, 10:17
THere is no right awnser for you cause your like me. YOu have to have both optics. Just get it over with and buy both of them. I have gone through this for over 12 years now just get both plane and simple.
VIP3R 237- yes the Vortex 1-4 is currently what's on the short list.
The Meopta is interesting. Not exactly in love with that reticle though. And unless that does something better that I'm not aware of, if I'm going to spend 1k I might as well go for a NF and get my choice of reticle. Or an RDS + magnifier. Or wait on the new SWFA 1-6x and see what happens. Or buy an S&B/USO.....
Don't get me wrong- I'm not averse to spending more for a better product (learned that lesson a while ago), and compared to some of the other scopes I've been researching into these are all starting to sound cheap.
BUT I am on a budget, so as much as I would love to buy 1 of each and evaluate from there I just can't- I've got to draw a price line somewhere. Otherwise I would already have done what ICANHITHIMMAN suggested.
"the magnification is worth the weight" only if you're shooting at distances and targets that require the magnification and/or take advantage of it. I've made consistent hits at 200 yards on 8" steel with XM193, an 11.5" A1-profile barrel, and 4 MOA Aimpoint. I wouldn't be able to tell you if that target was a threat or not without magnification, but I'd also probably have a hard time defending my choice to shoot said threat at 200 yards.
If this is about shooting and not "fighting" and you enjoy shooting at distance, and the targets are of such a size and/or distance that you need magnification to get the hits, or that having magnification makes it easier to get the hits, it may be worth the weight (and cost). But I find that most people will surprise themselves as to what they are able to do with a good RDS and no magnification like an Aimpoint or Eotech.
At Kyle Defoor's class here in Florida a few weeks ago we were shooting A/C steel targets at 200, 300, and 400 yards. Pretty much only the magnification guys were hitting at 400, but once we moved in to 300 almost everyone on the line was hitting. 200 was easy day. Were they shooting little nappy-time groups on top of one another at 300? No way to know for sure, but they were also mostly shooting "milspec" barrels and cheap ammo, so what would be the point anyway?
Reagans Rascals
02-13-12, 07:59
its the most expensive solution to go with but... what about an Elcan Spectre DR?
http://www.nitevis.com/ELCAN_SU-230.htm
I didn't see where you listed a budget for this optic. Usually I hold back on my recommended variable glass because people usually put limits on what they are willing to spend.
That said, I have the Swarovski Z6i and LOVE it! Now, take that with a grain of salt as I have not used other variable scopes other than the Trijicon (don't recall the model, but it had the single "needle" looking reticle). I used it recently in the same Defoor course Rob mentioned and felt like I was just as fast up close with the Z6i as I have been previously with my Aimpoint (or with my work guns Eotech). The dot is every bit as bright as Aimpoints and has both day and night settings you can set (it remembers your settings).
When it came to distance I was having a blast. It has the BRT reticle which is a mil tree. Once I had my hold, I was in business on the steel. I wanted a rifle that could do everything and so far I think I've got it. It's a bit on the heavy side, but that has more to do with the bbl profile than the optic.
E.C.- my bad. I got caught up in bemoaning the current situation and forgot to add that in. Let's just say, for now around $500 is what I'm looking at. Trying to keep it somewhat proportionate to what a good RDS costs. I'd may adjust up to about $700, but it had better the be The One Optic to Rule Them All....:p
As much as I'd love to say otherwise, the $2k+ scopes are going to have to wait until I'm wiping my ass with dollar bills and/or can put together a serious precision rifle.
Rob- that's exactly the sort of thing that is hanging me up.
I know I could probably be fine and do just about everything I would need to do with the rifle with a standard red dot. But at the same time I'm having a bout of precision fever and would really like to start learning to use a scope better. That, and I can't see small targets at long[er] ranges. Even orange skeet discs at 100yds. are kind of tough righ now (although I am using irons, if that makes any difference).
I know I could probably be fine and do just about everything I would need to do with the rifle with a standard red dot. But at the same time I'm having a bout of precision fever and would really like to start learning to use a scope better. That, and I can't see small targets at long[er] ranges. Even orange skeet discs at 100yds. are kind of tough righ now (although I am using irons, if that makes any difference).
Sounds like you really want a variable scope. I think you should be patient and save up for a nice 1-4. If I didn't have my trijicon I'd give a serious look at the GRSC 1-6. It has a busy reticle, but I'd love to have the extra magnification. Anyway, there's plenty of quality options in the $700-$1000 range. Not so much in the $500 range.
There's older 1.25-4 accupoints on EE and Ebay for round $500 from time to time.
Failure2Stop
02-13-12, 23:01
There are no $500 low powered variables that I would trust as much as a $500 Aimpoint.
For your budget I would recommend an RDS.
johnpuga1982
02-13-12, 23:22
I was recently torn on what optic to get. I initially wanted an Aimpoint Comp M4, but after trying it I had trouble hitting the further targets past 100 yards.
Then I tried a 3.5x35 ACOG (not sure which one) and all though it was good for shooting further distances, I couldn't stand the constant magnification.
After constant debating in my head, I went ahead and purchased the Comp M4. In my opinion, adding the 3x magnifier will give me the best over all system as far as optics go. I'll be able to get up close and personal while still being able to reach out and touch someone.
There are no $500 low powered variables that I would trust as much as a $500 Aimpoint.
For your budget I would recommend an RDS.
Agreed. With an RDS and say...a 3x magnifier, your not going to get the best of both worlds. Save the cash for a dedicated variable-power optic if your looking to "stretch your legs" distance-wise.
I'm running an EoTech 553 on a Colt M4 with an (old WWII) 3x Hensoldt-Wetzlar PZ-44 behind it (with clear glass). The mag cams out of the way for CQB, but it's really not cut-out for distance behind the RDS beyond 200-300 yards except for maybe target ID. I'd rather use my MaTech rear-flip for that.
Best of luck on your decision.
E.C.- my bad. I got caught up in bemoaning the current situation and forgot to add that in. Let's just say, for now around $500 is what I'm looking at. Trying to keep it somewhat proportionate to what a good RDS costs. I'd may adjust up to about $700, but it had better the be The One Optic to Rule Them All....:p
As much as I'd love to say otherwise, the $2k+ scopes are going to have to wait until I'm wiping my ass with dollar bills and/or can put together a serious precision rifle.
I agree with other comments. Finding a quality variable for what you are able to spend is about as likely as finding a unicorn grazing in your yard next to a pot of gold, guarded by a friendly Leprechaun.
Save your money until you can afford a quality piece of glass. I used my tax return for mine, but I feel your pain. I built my rifle over a period of a couple years, buying parts here and there as I could afford it. My buddies were going to LAV and VTAC classes and giving me grief about not going, but I had other expenses at the time. Now that I'm finished and have the rifle I wanted I'm glad I didn't go cheap and quick.
My advice would be get the red dot and save up for a variable scope. You will always have another rifle that can use the red dot when it's time. I used an Aimpoint on my rifle until I got the Z6i. Now the Aimpoint is on my duty rifle.
There are no $500 low powered variables that I would trust as much as a $500 Aimpoint.
For your budget I would recommend an RDS.
Asking merely out of curiosity, what's the least expensive low-powered variable that you would trust? Thx!...
Tomac
Failure2Stop
02-14-12, 19:27
Asking merely out of curiosity, what's the least expensive low-powered variable that you would trust? Thx!...
Tomac
I have been using an SWFA 1-4 for about 7 or 8 months, and it's as low as I would recommend for a serious user of low powered variable optics, and it runs about $800 before mount.
lethal dose
02-14-12, 19:39
I have been using an SWFA 1-4 for about 7 or 8 months, and it's as low as I would recommend for a serious user of low powered variable optics, and it runs about $800 before mount.
not to undermine your expertise, but i would highly recommend the trijicon tr24 for hard use. BUT... i would never run a 1-4 if i only had one AR. aimpoint micro or trijicon reflex for me.
as rob stated, i see little to no benefit in a 1-4 for hitting targets out to 200m. i also agree that i would rarely consider something a threat at 200m unless it was actively pursuing me. otherwise... i'd wait it out.
There are no $500 low powered variables that I would trust as much as a $500 Aimpoint.
For your budget I would recommend an RDS.
This is the way I think about it also, it takes more precise & quality parts to produce a rugged well built variable magnified scope. For that price range I would rather put my faith in the Aimpoint.
not to undermine your expertise, but i would highly recommend the trijicon tr24 for hard use. BUT... i would never run a 1-4 if i only had one AR. aimpoint micro or trijicon reflex for me.
as rob stated, i see little to no benefit in a 1-4 for hitting targets out to 200m. i also agree that i would rarely consider something a threat at 200m unless it was actively pursuing me. otherwise... i'd wait it out.
He mentioned the SWFA in regards to the least expensive variable he'd trust.
A variable makes for a nice hybrid that can be used for self defense or hunting. You can do things with a variable that you can't do with a red dot and vice versa. To each their own.
lethal dose
02-16-12, 23:08
I mentioned the tr24 because it's less then the $800 swfa f2s mentioned. And, yes... to each his own, as there are also MANY things you can do with an RDS that you can't with a 1-4x.
He mentioned the SWFA in regards to the least expensive variable he'd trust.
A variable makes for a nice hybrid that can be used for self defense or hunting. You can do things with a variable that you can't do with a red dot and vice versa. To each their own.
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