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View Full Version : Continuation of discussion from SME forum: "Training focus AFG / training in Europe"



a0cake
02-12-12, 17:17
I'm assuming we're still operating under the same rules where if you want to add an opinion on a question posed to an SME, you should make a new thread in a general section. So that's what this is.


Original thread posed to LAV here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1228150#post1228150

Original question by user The Swede:

I'm currently serving as an officer working with an Infantry platton in the Swedish Army. We are to deploy to AFG in
1,5 years and I'm looking to step up our training with our carbines to make me and my soldiers into better shooters.
So far focus has been on weapons manipulation and speed inside 100 yards. What do you feel is important to focus on considering
combat distance in said country? Any tips on drills to enhance capability on longer distances?

Due to ITAR, training with you or any other accalaimed shooting coach in the US is not possible. Are you aware of something of similar quality in Europe?
Looking to become a better "duty shooter" as well as stepping up my 3-Gun game with my AR15.

Hope you had a nice weekend!

My suggestions:

- LAV's point about being able to make headshots is pretty good. Thick mud walls are everywhere in Afghanistan. It is no mistake that they are built high enough to stand behind with only the head exposed. Afghan "Qualats," or compounds, are built to fight from. You will need to be able to make shots on targets with only their heads exposed. For training, you can setup the range so that only the head and neck portion of a silhouette type target is exposed. Spray paint the barrier as well as the target tan. The targets should not "pop" color wise. Make your soldiers really struggle to see the exposed heads.

- Building on my point above, focus on integrating "Target ID" into your marksmanship training. Partially obscure your targets with tall vegetation that mimics corn and marijuana fields (you will become intimately familiar with these two things). Being able to identify and engage targets behind partial concealment is of paramount importance in Afghanistan. Make it a lesson that when the Taliban are using tall grass as concealment (they will, a lot), but you can see part of them, maybe just a shoulder or a leg or a head, you can still aim center mass. Many people will try to shoot only the part they can see in these scenarios. Try to break that.

- Focus on inclination and declination marksmanship. In southern Afghanistan (Helmand and Kandahar), you will often be on relatively flat terrain. In parts of the north and especially the east, you will rarely be engaging targets on the same plane as you. You'll either be shooting down or up at relatively extreme angles. Make sure your soldiers understand that they will have to aim lower.

- Make it an SOP to carry no tracers in all but one of your magazines. That last magazine should be ALL tracers. Tracers work both ways. Only use them when you intend to (for marking targets for attack aviation assets etc.) When you need to use tracers for marking, just insert the dedicated tracer mag. When you're done, replace it with a standard magazine. It helps to identify the tracer mag in some way that can be felt at night. I use a thick wrap of tape at the bottom near the floor plate.

- Work on developing some kind of SOP for what to do when you can't PID any targets but are receiving small arms fire. Sometimes it can take a good couple of minutes to figure out where you're getting shot at from, especially in the mountains. Once you do get a general location figured out, it will take a few more minutes to bring indirect fire assets to bear. Resist the urge to just light up the whole area with small arms. Often, the Taliban will use caves or outcroppings of rock for cover. You'll get good at ID'ing which rock clusters they're likely shooting from, even though you can't really see them. Instead of just trying to shoot up an entire mountain, train your soldiers to place a few well aimed shots on the left and ride sides of large boulders, or a few shots into the recesses in the mountains, etc...basically anywhere you think they're firing from. This seems obvious, but still, some units just shoot haphazardly when they can't ID any targets.

- Long range marksmanship. Although you will have a number of systems available that are better suited to servicing long range targets than the carbine, it's still good to be proficient at ranges up to 600M. Depending where in Afghanistan you are, many if not most of your contacts are going to occur at ranges of over 400M.

- Focus on marksmanship using your vehicles as cover. Develop an SOP or at least practice having each vehicle's dismounts take up cover behind the vehicle and engaging targets. Space is limited, and you'll find that some of them are going to have to use less than ideal firing positions. Knowing which positions to take behind the vehicle before hand will save a lot of confusion and aimless wandering around when time comes. Not every right handed shooter will be able to fire from the rear or front of the vehicle in a perfect setup. That said, don't use the vehicles for cover unless you have to (sometimes you will). They're RPG magnets.

If I think of anything else Afghan specific I'll update this.

SHIVAN
02-13-12, 08:44
THANKS FOR FOLLOWING THE RULES OF THE SME FORUMS!!!

Great follow-up thread with stellar information!!!

skullworks
02-13-12, 11:09
And I'm the asshat who (once again) managed to misunderstand the rules (even though I thought my comment fell under the "clarification" rider).:agree:

Anyway, LAV did make a reply based on my comment; which was that if The_Swede or any other foreign military officer want to attend advanced training such as that provided by Vickers Tactical you should go through the chain of command and get an official letter stating that you are attending the training on the behest of the Swedish (or other friendly) Armed Forces. With official letterhead in hand ITAR is not that big of a problem.

Also, I now for a fact that several well known U.S. instructors have been invited to Sweden to train military units - it's impressive what an official invitation can do to clear ITAR red tape. ;)

Arctic1
02-13-12, 11:18
A few observations, some maybe not marksmanship specific, but still relevant:

-Optics. Make sure that your guys always have and use optics, from your top covers to guys in fighting positions on the ground. It really helps with Target ID.

-Calling targets. Make sure your guys train different methods of calling or marking targets. Like what a0cake said about the carbine being a signaling and communication device, use bullet impacts, IR lasers, tracers for leaders to mark or call targets and directing fires. Using landmarks can sometimes be difficult, as some parts are pretty featureless, especially in Balkh and Shebergan. This must also be practiced at night.

-Practice range estimation and get the guys to learn their holds for their RDS'. Most guys estimate the range as being longer than it is, and over compensate, and shooting over the target. If they are uncertain, aim at the bottom of the target, and use holds after seeing the bullet impact.

-Practice fire discipline/ammo conservation. Suppression is not achieved through noise or a high expenditure of ammo, rather it is achieved by making sure all visible targets and hidden/potential targets are covered by effective, accurate fire. Our experience was that the enemy we faced was not deterred by the sound of our weapons firing or the crack of a bullet passing a couple of meters from them. You need to hit close by, hit their position or hit them to have an effect with small arms.

Make sure your leaders manages the squads ammo, or you will run out fast. Achieve fire superiority and adjust rate of fire accordingly to maintain it.

-Make sure you run drills using all weapon systems available. If you do not train using the underslung 40mm for example, chances are they will not use it in combat.

-Make sure your leaders do what they are supposed to during a contact, namely directing the fires of the squad, and not continually staring down their sights.

-Practice, if you can, shooting from the turret of your vehicles with pistols or carbines., at close proximity targets appearing rapidly, with the vehicle moving. Some of the villages in the north have pretty narrow streets.

Hope some of it helps.

Stay safe!

Submariner
02-16-12, 10:24
- Focus on inclination and declination marksmanship. In southern Afghanistan (Helmand and Kandahar), you will often be on relatively flat terrain. In parts of the north and especially the east, you will rarely be engaging targets on the same plane as you. You'll either be shooting down or up at relatively extreme angles. Make sure your soldiers understand that they will have to aim lower.

I have been reading about inclination/declination marksmanship on the web and my eyes are glazing over.

Would you please explain the gouge on this in a paragraph or two?

"An ounce of gouge is worth a pound of knowledge." Famous Naval Saying :thank_you2:

Failure2Stop
02-16-12, 10:43
Gentlemen, I will remind everyone that our enemies have access to the internet and scour forums and blogs for information on training and tactics.
Do not post anything you would not want them to see, because they will.

a0cake
02-16-12, 11:10
I have been reading about inclination/declination marksmanship on the web and my eyes are glazing over.

Would you please explain the gouge on this in a paragraph or two?

"An ounce of gouge is worth a pound of knowledge." Famous Naval Saying :thank_you2:


Gravity obviously has a different effect on trajectory when shooting on a flat, level plane than it does when shooting up or down. When an angle between the shooter and the target is introduced, either up OR down, gravity will have less of an effect.

There are a few ways to account for this.

The first is called "The Rifleman's Rule." It uses the cosine of the shot angle multiplied by the measured range to come up with an "adjusted range."

Range X C = adjusted range
5 degrees from horizontal C = .99
10 degrees from horizontal C = .98
15 degrees from horizontal C = .96
20 degrees from horizontal C = .94
25 degrees from horizontal C = .91
30 degrees from horizontal C = .87
35 degrees from horizontal C = .82
40 degrees from horizontal C = .77
45 degrees from horizontal C = .70
50 degrees from horizontal C = .64
55 degrees from horizontal C = .57
60 degrees from horizontal C = .50
65 degrees from horizontal C = .42
70 degrees from horizontal C = .34
75 degrees from horizontal C = .26
80 degrees from horizontal C = .17
85 degrees from horizontal C = .09
90 degrees from horizontal C = 0

So, if your target is 500M away, but at a 60 degree angle (up OR down), you could using this first method, multiply 500 by .5 and come up with an adjusted range of 250M. You would then treat the target as if it was 250M away and adjust accordingly.

The next way to solve the problem is to simply apply the cosine to the adjustment instead of to the range. So if you need 5 MOA of adjustment to make a 500M shot with no up or down angle...but then use the scenario above where you have a 500M distance with a 50 degree angle, you would simply multiply 5 MOA x .5 and use 2.5 MOA of adjustment.

The two methods will usually come close, but the second way is generally preferred.

The problem is that neither of these methods are all that accurate, especially as the angles become more extreme.

Good ballistics software is able to account for an incredible amount of variables, including environmentals and the ballistic performance of individual rounds. The best solution is to plug the data into a PDA for a guaranteed first round hit.

For general purposes, just keep in mind that you will have to aim lower for a given distance if there is inclination or declination involved.

Here's a graphic representation of what's going on:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/siteart/article_images/art1_1.gif

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/siteart/article_images/art1_2.gif

a0cake
02-16-12, 11:14
Gentlemen, I will remind everyone that our enemies have access to the internet and scour forums and blogs for information on training and tactics.
Do not post anything you would not want them to see, because they will.

I tried to be pretty careful about what I put in there, but I did redact a small portion just now out of an abundance of caution since you brought it up. I don't think there's anything earth shattering here, but I suppose that could be a matter of perspective. Let me know if you think I should kill the whole thing and I'll trust your judgement.

Failure2Stop
02-16-12, 12:09
Let me know if you think I should kill the whole thing and I'll trust your judgement.

I think you're fine.
It isn't hard to find technical explainations about angle shooting, and the fact that it requires a solid shooter to start with to make a difference; not an issue in the slightest.

I put in the reminder in case of others that get a bit too excited and in the sharing mood about certain specifics that can be used against us or add to their tactics.

Submariner
02-17-12, 09:32
For general purposes, just keep in mind that you will have to aim lower for a given distance if there is inclination or declination involved.


I understand your explanation for the general rule.

Thanks.