View Full Version : Pistol Problems
So, I've noticed from just looking at the first page of the handgun section that almost every reputable gun manufacturer has been messing up. Each of the major manufacturers has been putting out guns with problems....probably in their haste to beat their competitors on some level.
Glock put out a lot of Gen4 9mm Glocks that seem to either be unreliable, eject brass straight back at the shooter's face, or have both of those issues.
Smith and Wesson's M&P line is evidently plagued by unlocking problems that are causing the guns to shoot inaccurately.
Sig has quality control issues, according to some people.
H&K has bad customer service unless you're a military or law enforcement entity.
Now, I don't have any experience concerning these manufacturers except for the fact that I have fired guns from all of them. I own two glock 19's, an M&P compact (well, it belongs to my girlfriend but it lives in the same home....), I have fired several Sigs new and old and I've fired a USP 45. All of them are great and I would own all of them if I weren't a financially insecure college kid.
So I got to thinking when I read all of these threads about why this is happening. I don't have any tangible evidence of this, but what if we look at the fact that these manufacturers are primarily marketing to more official entities than the civilian gun owner. It sort of makes sense, especially if you consider what's going on with Glock and Smith and Wesson. The 9mm models they're putting out are having a lot of problems. I haven't heard of many problems at all with the .40 S&W models. Now this could be because these models are much less popular than the 9mm versions in places like this but it definitely shows who those companies are more concerned about taking care - the bigger buyers. The vast majority of law enforcement are issued firearms chambered in .40S&W, from small localities all the way to almost all of the federal agencies.
In short I think the following makes sense:
-Manufacturers target large buyers (tens, hundreds, thousands or more units being purchased at once or over a set period)
-Large buyers mostly use .40S&W
-Manufacturers spend more R&D time and money on .40 S&W
-Assumptions are made somewhere that the new changes in whichever design will not have any effect on using 9mm
-The result is better .40S&W pistols
-Some 9mm pistols suffer from (insert problem) as a result of less R&D
So customers are left with the decision to either save up and spend twice what they used to have to spend and buy an H&K, hope you get a good Glock or M&P (or have to send them back to the factory for fixes that may not even work), buy an older Glock or Sig, or to start buying new .40S&W guns. Or turn to Beretta or one of the manufacturers mentioned further down.
Now we have two glocks and an M&P compact and neither of us find anything to be wrong with any of them. One of the Glocks is a Gen3 from 2003 and the other is a Gen4 from 2011. I just hope that the Gen4 keeps going strong.
None of these options are acceptable, but it seems that with every major pistol line out there right now there will have to some kind of compromise on the part of the customer. Either the customer will have to spend more money, spend time without their new firearm or buy more expensive (and harder kicking) ammunition.
This doesn't address guns outside the major labels. I would think those are FNH, CZ, Walther, Steyr and probably others as well. Those pistols are all great but are less popular for reasons that include being harder to find, more expensive or under-marketed.
So it just seems like that's what is going on with the the pistol market right now. I could be making connections where there are none and I could be completely wrong here, what do you think?
I don't really like any of those options, I'm not really willing to send a defective gun back to the factory, I don't want to spend $900 on a pistol (even if I could I wouldn't), and I don't like shooting .40S&W very much because I can't shoot it as accurately as 9mm.
Do you see any of this coming to an end? I see a lot of problems reported but I never see anyone coming out from a manufacturer and reassuring customers that they are working on the problem. As far as they're concerned everything is just fine.
Thanks. I've been lurking around here for a while and probably will mostly do just that since there's such a wealth of information. I don't generally like making threads or even posting but I see a lot of people sort of steering others away from manufacturers because of whatever is going on with that manufacturer. I'm frankly frustrated with the entire industry and I would like some answers from all of the manufacturers involved about why they're having problems and what they're doing to fix them. Maybe after people start replying here I will email reps from some of the companies with links to this thread and to all of the other "problem" threads.
http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo155/bsemons/MyGlocks.jpg
Here's a pic of my two G19's with the best fifty foot group I achieved last weekend. Sure have come a long way. Still could be better.
You're right in a sense but you're also thinking about this way too much.
Sig's issues have been going on for YEARS mostly because they are trying to cut costs to increase profit margins while living off of their "legendary" reputation.
The economy is in the shitter, EVERYONE is trying to increase or maintain their profit margins.
The M&P was designed as a .40 caliber pistol. Any issues with the 9mm guns can most likely be attributed to that.
The generation 4 Glocks were designed first and foremost with the .40 cal round in mind as evidenced by the over sprung AND shared RSA's between the 9mm and .40 cal guns. The fact that the 9mm guns are having problems is well, an unwanted side affect of a lot of things.
Having said this, in a roundabout way, yes, Glock and other major manufacturers wants to land contracts but to think that they dont care about the civilian populace is absurd and definitely not the case. There are MILLIONS of gun owners in the US and MILLIONS of potential gun owners. You ignore one customer base and you end up like HK although they ARE trying very hard to fix that arguably erroneous reputation.
Bottom line, cost cutting affects any and all firearms. The problem that you run into is that with a huge corporation, a mistake is like an avalanche. It starts small, grows to be HUGE and once it is over and done with the cleanup effort is massive. Corporations move slow as molasses and getting fixes into the pipeline takes forever. Heck, acknowledging issues can also take far too long.
Glock and Smith WILL fix their issues or sink but i highly doubt it is going to be the latter for either company.
Here's a thing to keep in mind.
You're going to hear a lot more people spamming forums about problems with firearms rather than how flawless they've ran (M4C takes good care of posts like these). Instead of contacting the manufacturer first and resolving the issue, people gripe and moan to anybody that will listen hoping some how the problem will be magically fixed.
Now, I'm not saying there haven't been numerous counts of flawed firearms, I just think the numbers get inflated for this very reason.
Interesting topic, I look forward to the input from everyone else.
Since Glock has been using the same platform for over 25 years, I don't understand why the 19 and 17 models are presenting with issues that are so difficult to fix. One guess is a change in manufacturing methods with new and different machinery, and the cost for "going back" is prohibitive.
jmlshooter
02-13-12, 20:26
In January 2010, I bought a Colt Lightweight Gov't XSE. It fired one round, blew past the slide stop, and seized up completely.
Could I have sent the gun back to the manufacturer? Sure. Were they going to do anything to that gun that would make me have confidence in it? Hell no.
At that point, I said, "I'm done with 1911's," (ed. I wasn't really) took it back and bought a Gen 3 Glock 17. The 17 runs great, but it will occasionally throw brass back in my face. Never had a malfunction with it.
Since then, I've bought several guns, but they were all USED guns.
They all run like they stole something. My Gen 2 G19 just throws the brass differently than my Gen 3 gun. It's throws it HARD.
We are in a dark era right now for reliability (save and except HK). You just can't get a new $500 gun that runs 100% -- guaranteed -- out of the box right now. I'm sure some on here may disagree with that.
I'm not buying anything brand new for a long time.
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the astonishingly high rate of failures right out of the box.
I'm talking rifles, pistols, shotguns. Foreign and domestic. Cheap and expensive. "Reputable" brands. The gun publications and the NRA are taking ad payola money in buckets and they won't say it, but firearms have got to be the least reliable items you can buy.
When you buy a gun you're buying a lottery ticket. If it doesn't shoot, and many won't, you have bought a warranty claim. And gun retailers, unlike almost any other, don't want to know you once they get your money. "Send it to the factory," they all say.
If lawnmowers and dishwashers had the same infant mortality rate, the companies that make them would be out of business.
This is the great dirty secret of the industry: they can make junk and keep on rolling.
An Undocumented Worker
02-13-12, 22:37
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the astonishingly high rate of failures right out of the box.
I'm talking rifles, pistols, shotguns. Foreign and domestic. Cheap and expensive. "Reputable" brands. The gun publications and the NRA are taking ad payola money in buckets and they won't say it, but firearms have got to be the least reliable items you can buy.
When you buy a gun you're buying a lottery ticket. If it doesn't shoot, and many won't, you have bought a warranty claim. And gun retailers, unlike almost any other, don't want to know you once they get your money. "Send it to the factory," they all say.
If lawnmowers and dishwashers had the same infant mortality rate, the companies that make them would be out of business.
This is the great dirty secret of the industry: they can make junk and keep on rolling.
Any firearms company I've dealt with on a waranty claim has been very helpful, and very eager to get the problem taken care of. If the problems were as widespread as you imply, I would think there would be a much higher corporate mortality rate.
I will say there are other products I have used that seem to have a much greater failure rate than firearms. Specifically mountain bikes and their related components. There are a few companies in that industry that I refuse to purchase products from due to repeated failures of my own personal equipment.
So to imply that making junk is a dirty secret isolated to just the firearms community is myopic.
Every industry has manufacturers that have a history of producing junk. And just about every manufacturer that has a history of producing stellar products for more than a decade has at one time or another produced a total flop or generally problematic model.
In January 2010, I bought a Colt Lightweight Gov't XSE. It fired one round, blew past the slide stop, and seized up completely.
Could I have sent the gun back to the manufacturer? Sure. Were they going to do anything to that gun that would make me have confidence in it? Hell no.
At that point, I said, "I'm done with 1911's," (ed. I wasn't really) took it back and bought a Gen 3 Glock 17. The 17 runs great, but it will occasionally throw brass back in my face. Never had a malfunction with it.
Since then, I've bought several guns, but they were all USED guns.
They all run like they stole something. My Gen 2 G19 just throws the brass differently than my Gen 3 gun. It's throws it HARD.
We are in a dark era right now for reliability (save and except HK). You just can't get a new $500 gun that runs 100% -- guaranteed -- out of the box right now. I'm sure some on here may disagree with that.
I'm not buying anything brand new for a long time.
I'm seeing a lot of commonality with your post and a lot of other people having issues with their guns. Without diagnosing what happened with the Colt, you're unfairly portraying the make and model as bad.
Glocks occasionally throwing brass back at the shooter is a common problem when the shooter doesn't firmly and correctly grip the gun. As a heavy user of Glocks in competition, I've seen it happen a LOT and invariably the shooter is using poor form. Your Gen 2 ejecting brass "HARD" may be a signal the gun is undersprung at this point. Changing the recoil spring may alleviate this.
There are a lot of good, reliable guns being manufactured currently. What we have is a gun market that's flooded with "pretty" or "cool" that isn't always desirable or functional as a defense gun. We also have more new users than ever before that don't understand proper care and feeding, and haven't even bothered to read the manuals that came with them.
I have a current run Gen 3 G-21SF that's 100%, with or without the X300 attached. I have a current run Colt Rail Gun that's 100%. My wife has a 9mm M&P that's 100%. I have a new to me S&W 1911PD that's 100% so far after about 400 rounds (it will be going into duty rotation after a few hundred more). I'll be getting a Gen 4 G-26 next and I expect 100% function from it (which I will verify) as well.
The outlook just isn't as bleak as some would have it be.
any manufactured product made on a large scale some lemons slip out of the factory- the car built the day after a holiday or at 5 on friday comes to mind. Often makers are definitely doing a keep up with the joneses next door thing- the gen 4 glock is a fine example, as is S&W's first competitor to the glock the sigma. As someone else noted every company is always trying to provide a good product at a lower cost or higher profit margin- hence the emergence of mim and cast parts that were once forged or machined. With newer mettalurgical technology often it is possible to make an equal or better quality part with a less costly manufacturing method, but it doesn't always work that way. Browning went to a cast frame when they started chambering the high power in .40 becasue they found it stronger than the older machined/forged version.
In combat handguns in particular, the focus for most companies is on police contracts- large numbers of guns ordered and there is the phenomenon of civlians buying the same gun adopted by xyz agency.
The dirty secret of the firearms industry is the astonishingly high rate of failures right out of the box......
Please give us some data to support your assertion, and cite some credible sources for that data.
The market is ripe for a US pistol manufacturer to step in, make a gun that runs without cutting corners, and offer great service.
People like us are looking all over for something that we can trust and not have to screw with to make them run right.
FN might have something with their new FNS, but only time will tell.
Bad Medicine
02-14-12, 13:47
Recently my Mark23 had the rubber that covered the spur of the hammer become loose and start to wiggle. I called HK up they were extremely nice, asked me if I could handle replacing the hammer myelf they told me I can try it and if all fails then just send it in and they would catch the bill. I replaced the hammer myself, but overall my impression with their customer service was very satisfied! :D
I won't quote anyone's posts here,although I agree with just about all of it. I've already expressed my total disgust with firearms manufacturers in this day and age.
I have enough handguns as it is,and I will not be purchasing any new ones either for a long time.I bought a PPQ a while back and am very pleased with it,but that's it.
Some of the best guns I own or have ever owned are older ones,many bought used.
Yeah,I'm old,but I came up shooting in an era when these kinds of ridiculous and inexcusible problems were unheard of.
S&W has been turning out airweight revolvers with locks like water from a spring,getting them to distributors and dealers for a little of nothing,and touting them as the best gun in the world for a woman,or for carry. Well......BULL FEATHERS. They will soon stop making them with locks,jack up the price and pour them out to the public and they will sell like hotcakes.
I am staying with my older,proven,S&W's,my 2nd Gen Glocks that actually work,and thank God I got rid of my late production Gen.3 19 before it started puking.
If I live long enough to see handgun production climb out of the toilet,then I may consider getting another new one of some kind.Until then it's well built ,older,and even previously owned ones for me.
It doesn't make a hill of beans how well a company treats you if you have a problem. Quality of production and out of box reliability is at an all time low and this many guns should not have to be sent back to be corrected.
Bad Medicine
02-14-12, 18:46
I won't quote anyone's posts here,although I agree with just about all of it. I've already expressed my total disgust with firearms manufacturers in this day and age.
I have enough handguns as it is,and I will not be purchasing any new ones either for a long time.I bought a PPQ a while back and am very pleased with it,but that's it.
Some of the best guns I own or have ever owned are older ones,many bought used.
Yeah,I'm old,but I came up shooting in an era when these kinds of ridiculous and inexcusible problems were unheard of.
S&W has been turning out airweight revolvers with locks like water from a spring,getting them to distributors and dealers for a little of nothing,and touting them as the best gun in the world for a woman,or for carry. Well......BULL FEATHERS. They will soon stop making them with locks,jack up the price and pour them out to the public and they will sell like hotcakes.
I am staying with my older,proven,S&W's,my 2nd Gen Glocks that actually work,and thank God I got rid of my late production Gen.3 19 before it started puking.
If I live long enough to see handgun production climb out of the toilet,then I may consider getting another new one of some kind.Until then it's well built ,older,and even previously owned ones for me.
It doesn't make a hill of beans how well a company treats you if you have a problem. Quality of production and out of box reliability is at an all time low and this many guns should not have to be sent back to be corrected.
Sorry Doc but HK is quality the rubber falling off my hammer would have effected the functionality of my pistol.
Sorry Doc but HK is quality the rubber falling off my hammer would have effected the functionality of my pistol. Understood.I was not really referencing that minor issue,but the more serious issues that are so prevalent that could actually cost someone their life.
I also understand that things just happen sometimes,but if we look at all the issues that have come to the forefront with several manufacturers,we see a definite pattern and some definite problems that are no laughing matter.The quality control is just not there.
BTW,HK is one of the few pistols that I would trust right now as they come in the package.
Bad Medicine
02-15-12, 16:55
Understood.I was not really referencing that minor issue,but the more serious issues that are so prevalent that could actually cost someone their life.
I also understand that things just happen sometimes,but if we look at all the issues that have come to the forefront with several manufacturers,we see a definite pattern and some definite problems that are no laughing matter.The quality control is just not there.
BTW,HK is one of the few pistols that I would trust right now as they come in the package.
My apologies for the misunderstanding. I agree with what you are saying. We do need to see more quality control in the handgun market. Hopefully they will come around before it is too late!
No problem,sir. No apologies necessary. Perhaps my wording in the original post was misleading.:)
H&K has bad customer service unless you're a military or law enforcement entity.
:laugh:
what? On the internet's "Because we're HK and we hate you" bandwagon?
This is certainly not true
:laugh:
what? On the internet's "Because we're HK and we hate you" bandwagon?
This is certainly not true
Good to hear. I'm certainly not one to believe that but listed it because it's commonly cited. I would absolutely love to own some of the H&K products out there.
Probably an example of what the entire original post is about - people not trusting guns because of what they've heard or read.
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