View Full Version : Extractor/Jamming issues
Hello guys, need your help with some jamming issues on my AR15. It is a 16in Carbine with Spikes lower and Rguns upper.
My first range trip a month ago was fine, shot about 100rds to test it out and no issues. 2nd and 3rd range trip (today) I've had some issues with not ejecting the empty cartridges.
On my 2nd trip apparently the spring on the extractor fell out (dunno how); I always field strip and clean down to the extractor after each range session. So on that range trip it would not extract the empty cartridge after every shot. RO helped me figure this out so a extractor is on order.
Today (3rd range visit) I went to the range and borrowed my roomate's BCG (Spikes) to use on my AR because I want to sight in my new scope. First mag shoots without any problems, shooting 1rd every 2seconds. The second mag I do a bit of rapid fire and around 25rds it fails to extract the empty cartridge with another round trying to load.
What could be the issue? I am using P-mags and my friend's Bolt carrier group, and the rifle is lubed. Thanks in advance!
Are your mags marked so that you can tell if it happens with the same mag?
How many rounds through it? Sounds pretty new so not sure why you've been stripping all the way down to removing the extractor....are you sure haven't damaged it?
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Are your mags marked so that you can tell if it happens with the same mag?
How many rounds through it? Sounds pretty new so not sure why you've been stripping all the way down to removing the extractor....are you sure haven't damaged it?
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Mags are not marked. I only have 3Mags right now, all P-mags. Pretty sure its not a mag issue.
About 200rds in it now. It is not new; I bought it off a guy on one of the local forums.
I always field strip it all the way down, but I was adviced just to leave the bolt so I will do that next time.
Suwannee Tim
02-13-12, 20:09
I had an issue with a 450 Bushmaster. Case wouldn't eject and was jamming the gun. Turns out the extract or was a hair too tight. I diagnosed it by simply hooking a case rim under the extractor. I expected the case to release from the extractor with little or no resistance. Mine didn't. The extractor kind of grabbed the case. My solution was to mix up some abrasive powder with grease and apply it to the inside of the rim of a case and rotate it under the extractor. It didn't take long, a couple of minutes of this treatment to fix the problem. Strangely, the problem didn't appear immediately when the gun was new, it appeared after about 100 shots. If you don't have any abrasive powder you might try a steel case with a little oil and see if that works.
I don't know that you need to take the extractor off every time you clean a 5.56. I do so every time I shoot my 5.45 which is a LOT dirtier than any 5.56 I have ever seen. I have a couple of ARs, one DI and one piston, neither have had the extractor off and both have over 5K rounds down the pipe. Maybe I ought to clean under the extractor but so far, no problem.
Magazines won't cause failure to extract.
1. What kind of ammo are you using? Steel case sometimes causes problems in some guns. Lacquered ones can glue up your chamber; plus steel doesn't obturate the bore completely, allowing powder dookie to get between the case and the chamber walls.
2. Slightly rough chamber from the factory? Smith could polish her up.
3. Replace the extractor and use the Bravo Company spring, which some people claim is better than most factory springs.
N.B.: don't overclean. Every couple thousand rounds, give your gun a bit of a scrubbing. Just keep adding lube generously.
Chambered in .223 or 5.56? Make sure you have the right ammo as mentioned above. Try a chamber reamer from Ned Christiansen.
jonconsiglio
02-13-12, 22:48
EDIT - My first thought was to start with the easiest of problems to fix and work up from there, but after a couple other posts, the chamber may very well be the issue here.
I've never heard anything about the company, so I'm basing this on others opinions.
R-Guns uppers are crap for the most part and they are known to have tight chambers. My guess is that the chamber is tight is this is causing the failure to extract issue.
jonconsiglio
02-13-12, 23:43
Good to know, I don't think I've even heard of R Guns before...
R-Guns uppers are crap for the most part and they are known to have tight chambers. My guess is that the chamber is tight is this is causing the failure to extract issue.
That's what I've heard too about Rguns. And very poor CS, i.e. guns that took six months to be returned after repairs.
... Replace the extractor and use the Bravo Company spring, which some people claim is better than most factory springs...
JusticeM4, this would be a good thing to try, especially before chancing sending your gun back to Rguns! My Daniel Defense upper very rarely would fail to extract but it was a big problem when it happened. I replaced the extractor with the BCM kit and haven't experienced the issue since. I suppose you could also try the Crane O-ring, though I don't myself.
That's what I've heard too about Rguns. And very poor CS, i.e. guns that took six months to be returned after repairs.
JusticeM4, this would be a good thing to try, especially before chancing sending your gun back to Rguns! My Daniel Defense upper very rarely would fail to extract but it was a big problem when it happened. I replaced the extractor with the BCM kit and haven't experienced the issue since. I suppose you could also try the Crane O-ring, though I don't myself.
Thank you for all the advice.
Btw i'm using 223Factory brass (Remington and American Eagle). it is marked 5.56 on the barrel.
I went to the range again today and it fires ok in the beginning, but around 80rds it starts to jam. Granted I haven't cleaned it since the 2nd range visit, it is generously lubed. Could be just a bit dirty in the chamber. I am still using my roomate's Spikes BCG.
A Spikes upgraded extractor spring is on order. hopefully this will solve the issue. I have not heard too much about Rguns, but i hope this is the only issue i encounter with this upper.
Suwannee Tim
02-14-12, 20:20
.....it fails to extract the empty cartridge with another round trying to load......
Failing to extract or failing to eject?
Barrel markings mean nothing unless it is from one of the major companies. Many of the lessor ones have been known to mark barrels 5.56 and the chambers were not.
What is "jam"? Not being facetious but jam is something you put on toast. If you want to diagnose the issue then you need to be able to articulate what the issue is.
Are you experiencing a failure to extract or a failure to eject? Is there an expended round in the chamber with a live round feeding into it?
This is what we need to know. As I stated before this sounds like classic tight chamber syndrome. 80 rounds is nothing. I have run 10 times that in my weapon without cleaning in a single day.
At the end of the day you can play with extractors, O-rings, buffers and springs and all you are doing is more than likely putting a band-aid on it.
Thank you for all the advice.
Btw i'm using 223Factory brass (Remington and American Eagle). it is marked 5.56 on the barrel.
I went to the range again today and it fires ok in the beginning, but around 80rds it starts to jam. Granted I haven't cleaned it since the 2nd range visit, it is generously lubed. Could be just a bit dirty in the chamber. I am still using my roomate's Spikes BCG.
A Spikes upgraded extractor spring is on order. hopefully this will solve the issue. I have not heard too much about Rguns, but i hope this is the only issue i encounter with this upper.
like all the above mentioned; R-guns is a no go. always number every mag you own. no reason for a detailed strip and cleaning after 3.5 mags unless you have an issue. either find a local smith to run a finishing reamer in your chamber or invest in a new barrel. an easy way to rule out your extractor is to swap complete bolt carrier groups with a friend for a range session.
RogerinTPA
02-15-12, 06:10
Hello guys, need your help with some jamming issues on my AR15. It is a 16in Carbine with Spikes lower and Rguns upper.
My first range trip a month ago was fine, shot about 100rds to test it out and no issues. 2nd and 3rd range trip (today) I've had some issues with not ejecting the empty cartridges.
On my 2nd trip apparently the spring on the extractor fell out (dunno how); I always field strip and clean down to the extractor after each range session. So on that range trip it would not extract the empty cartridge after every shot. RO helped me figure this out so a extractor is on order.
Today (3rd range visit) I went to the range and borrowed my roomate's BCG (Spikes) to use on my AR because I want to sight in my new scope. First mag shoots without any problems, shooting 1rd every 2seconds. The second mag I do a bit of rapid fire and around 25rds it fails to extract the empty cartridge with another round trying to load.
What could be the issue? I am using P-mags and my friend's Bolt carrier group, and the rifle is lubed. Thanks in advance!
As some have stated, tight chamber or bad extractor/spring or both. Get a new extractor, which you are already in the process of getting, a five coil extractor spring, with black insert, and do not use the doughnut...it's too much tension, which will leave you with again, a stuck case.
Magazines won't cause failure to extract.
1. What kind of ammo are you using? Steel case sometimes causes problems in some guns. Lacquered ones can glue up your chamber
That statement is as wrong as two boys ****in. Please stop with the internet myth/Hearsay/Bullshit. Try and use a blow torch to see if you can melt the lacquer off and report back. The ones that I have seen were due to a worn extractor, or using the doughnut + insert + a 4 coil extractor spring, or a POS gun with a tight chamber. Myself and several others have proven this myth wrong over and over and over again....It does not "melt", causing these types of failures. The closes theory is that in some instances, an uneven application of the lacquer on the case, which produces a "drip" of hardened lacquer, will cause the case dimension to be slightly increased/deformed and wedged into the chamber during the firing sequence, that "may" cause a stuck case. And that, is the best theory going, and it's still only a theory. After personally shooting over 15K of lacquered Wolf, Tiger and Brown Bear, many times in carbine courses, and in regular range sessions, through 4 ARs, I have not had one issue with that ammo, running my ARs up to 4K rounds a couple of years ago to vet my ARs, without cleaning, just lube.
From the description I'm still not sure if we're actually talking about extraction or ejection. OP, just to be sure...
Extraction is the act of extracting the empty case from the chamber as the bolt moves to the rear.
Ejection is the act of flinging the empty case free from the carbine through the ejection port.
So what you're describing is the bolt moves to the rear and picks up the next round from the magazine but does not extract the empty case from the chamber, correct? When you clear it (lock bolt to rear, magazine out, rack charging handle 3x) does the empty case then extract and eject? My guess would be that the loaded round, the one that is trying to chamber into the base of the empty case, either falls free or sticks up vertically from the magazine when you remove it?
My suggestion
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4840/Product/EXTRACTOR-SPRING-ASSEMBLY
and
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=4837/Product/EXTRACTOR
or
http://clydearmory.com/colt-ar6720.html
Robb Jensen
02-15-12, 06:59
Substandard parts = substandard performance.
Not all AR parts are equal in quality and precious few companies know how to assemble ARs correctly. It isn't rocket science, but so many screw it up or flat out refuse to do it correctly.
If I were you I'd return the upper to R-Guns for refund and buy a BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense, S&W or Colt upper assembly.
Let me clarify: it is not ejecting the spent case. It gets stuck at the ejection port and the following round is trying to load. Sorry about that.
Again, this is a used AR that was built by the seller. I've never heard of Rguns before buying this rifle, but at least it comes with a Spikes lower with T2 buffer.
I'm in the process of building a 300Blackout with quality parts (CMMG, DD, etc). This current rifle is only a plinking/range rifle so its not such a big deal that it isn't top tier. My last Bushmaster M4 worked much better than this and had no failures after a few hundred rounds.
:confused: Now I'm confused.
Let me clarify: it is not ejecting the spent case. It gets stuck at the ejection port and the following round is trying to load. Sorry about that.
Does it look like picture number 1 or picture number 2?
Picture number 1
http://i.imgur.com/emJ16.jpg
Picture number 2
http://i.imgur.com/aaOHg.jpg
Suwannee Tim
02-15-12, 15:27
Or picture number three? Which I don't have one but if I did it would show an empty case stuck in the bolt face, under the extractor with the mouth of the case jammed into the back of the barrel extension and a new cartridge being stripped from the magazine trying to occupy the same space as the fired case.
To put it differently, is the fired case stovepiped out of the ejection port as Infidel shows in his first photo or is the fired case still completely inside the receiver, parallel with the new cartridge?
Sorry i'm not familiar with all the terms (extracting vs ejecting).
It looks kinda like #2, but the next round is already trying to go into the chamber. So yes it is causing a jam as well as an extracting issue. I will take a pic next time it happens. I cleaned it pretty well today without removing the extractor from the bolt.
and yes, the RO who works for spikes says its an Extractor issue.
Suwannee Tim
02-15-12, 19:33
Extraction is jerking the fired (or unfired) case out of the chamber. Ejection is kicking it out of the gun. The extractor is the hook on the right of the bolt. The ejector is the plunger in the face of the bolt. A side point, beware, never, never depend on an extractor to remove a live round from the chamber, always look and or feel the chamber to make sure the unfired round actually did come out. Tragic accidents have happened when people assumed the extractor did it's job and removed the cartridge when in fact the cartridge was left in the chamber because the extractor failed. Back to the current issue: Do you have a fired case stuck in the chamber? This is a failure to extract. Do you have a fired case stuck in the bolt face or otherwise partially or fully still in the action? This is a failure to eject.
Let me try and clarify or explain.
1. The round must extract first before it can eject. That means that the round must fully exit the chamber and the ejector must kick it loose.
2. I don't know how the RO (whomever that is) can say it is the extractor definitively. If the chamber is tight (and they are known to be) that will slow down or stop the extraction process which means that the bolt can still travel to the rear, strip another round and then attempt to fed it.
3. If that isn't happening and it is simply not ejecting then you to change the ejector spring.
The problem is that you have purchased a used upper of unknown origin (in that you don't know how many rounds were through it) you probably don't know if it truly functioned ever (most people sell uppers for one or two reasons, you guess what they are) and without having a competent person to examine it, you are simply chasing your tail.
If you have a known quality BCG and it is doing the same thing then the issue is almost certainly the chamber. I would also throw that Spike's buffer in the trash and get a real one. Also, check the buffer spring, measure it and tell us how long it is.
Sorry i'm not familiar with all the terms (extracting vs ejecting).
It looks kinda like #2, but the next round is already trying to go into the chamber. So yes it is causing a jam as well as an extracting issue. I will take a pic next time it happens. I cleaned it pretty well today without removing the extractor from the bolt.
and yes, the RO who works for spikes says its an Extractor issue.
sounds like you have an excellent excuse to upgrade to a different upper, any excuse is good as my gun safe will attest. seriously though just buy a quality NEW upper by a reputable company and you will not be dissapointed. dont let this bad apple spoil your faith in AR15's. best of luck.
Suwannee Tim
02-16-12, 05:18
Why are we putting all this effort into helping someone who hasn't put in a little effort to learn the parts of the gun? I'm done.
if this ^^^^^ was a facebook comment i would have "liked" it, lol. im done too.
Please stop with the internet myth/Hearsay/Bullshit.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/Troubleshooting/laquerbrasscomp.jpg
I used to think so too.
Robb Jensen
02-16-12, 23:36
I used to think so too.
What brand of barrel? Chrome chamber? .223 or 5.56mm chamber? How often cleaned? What brand of ammo is that brass?
RogerinTPA
02-17-12, 00:36
Dude, I've seen this on a number of occasions...that is CARBON build up/residue, it is NOT from Lacquer. News flash, you will see that on stuck brass cases as well, where there is no Lacquer.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a264/artweaker/Troubleshooting/laquerbrasscomp.jpg
I used to think so too.
What brand of barrel? Chrome chamber? .223 or 5.56mm chamber? How often cleaned? What brand of ammo is that brass?
Oly Arms, who knows with them, most likely tight .223. Cleaned that day. American Eagle after a couple hundred rounds of late '90's geen lacquer steel.
Dude, I've seen this on a number of occasions...that is CARBON build up/residue, it is NOT from Lacquer. News flash, you will see that on stuck brass cases as well, where there is no Lacquer.
News flash for you Dude; it was lacquer, gooey, sticky, and didn't rub off on your hands. I've been doing this for a long time so those pics are from long ago.
RogerinTPA
02-17-12, 03:38
Oly Arms, who knows with them, most likely tight .223. Cleaned that day. American Eagle after a couple hundred rounds of late '90's geen lacquer steel.
News flash for you Dude; it was lacquer, gooey, sticky, and didn't rub off on your hands. I've been doing this for a long time so those pics are from long ago.
So have I. What you "think" was lacquer, is the generously applied primer sealant on all the Russian ammo, that was "gooey and sticky". It coats everything inside the gun and collects quite well under the extractor. It is also not recommended to shoot brass after steel because of a lot of folks getting stuck cases. Which leads to a second theory, that residual red primer sealant is being carried back into the chamber as the rounds are fed, causing a build up, that eventually leads to stuck cases.
What you "think" was lacquer, is the generously applied primer sealant on all the Russian ammo, that was "gooey and sticky".
I used to plow through cases of Wolf 7.62x39 with my AK without cleaning it. That damn red primer sealant would be EVERYWHERE on the inside of that weapon!
News flash for you Dude; it was lacquer, gooey, sticky, and didn't rub off on your hands. I've been doing this for a long time so those pics are from long ago.
So you naturally sent the cases off for chemical analysis to determine the material that was stuck to them... right?
Robb Jensen
02-17-12, 07:02
Oly Arms, who knows with them, most likely tight .223. Cleaned that day. American Eagle after a couple hundred rounds of late '90's geen
I'm guessing not chrome lined either. OTOH I've seen most Oly Arms barrels which look like the were rifled and chambered with a rusty dull drill bit.
The recipe for running steel cases ammo in ARs contains lots of lube, a REAL 5.56mm chamber. If its weak Russian .223 pressure ammo you may have to use a lighter than H buffer.
News flash for you Dude; it was lacquer, gooey, sticky, and didn't rub off on your hands. I've been doing this for a long time so those pics are from long ago.
"What does a fish know about the water in which it swims all its life?" - Einstein
I've been doing this for a long time so those pics are from long ago.
Ergo, they're of no pertinence in the here-and-now, and we can let the lacquer BS die the death it deserves.
...unless the fossils want to bring up some kind of argument on how mamoths make great domestic animals, or how timber-framing is a superior, more effecient method of residential home construction compared to the use of engineered lumber.
If we're gonna reside in the past in terms of technical info, let's hop in the Way Back Machine and commit to being REALLY in the past.
Or, we can drop it entirely on the basis of being an American, hearing hoofbeats and thinking "Zebras!" instead of "Horsies!" (Hint: you ain't in Africa, and exactly how the HELL many zebra herds do we have running around this joint....?)
Or, we can drop it entirely on the basis of being an American, hearing hoofbeats and thinking "Zebras!" instead of "Horsies!" (Hint: you ain't in Africa, and exactly how the HELL many zebra herds do we have running around this joint....?)
damnit, and here I was thinking "unicorns!"
:laugh:
I tried to work in unicorns, but the source of the bad gouge prompted me to go with a temporal theme ("It's 20 years later, Mr. van Winkle; shit's changed!"), vice mythical creatures.
Cincinnatus
02-17-12, 08:58
I think from the gold responses of the senior members on this page alone, that this thread is now EPIC. Good stuff and very informative, busting myths and jettisoning dead horses with efficiency and extreme predjudice. Hoorah! :thank_you2:
How about we let this one simmer down until the OP gets back to us. I would love for him to try recommends first.
Paladin801
02-18-12, 00:46
How about we let this one simmer down until the OP gets back to us. I would love for him to try recommends first.
What he said ! I was gonna recommend he contact a voodoo queen named Phylis in New Orleans if he didn't take your suggestions. If he tries all of the good suggestions given and that doesn't work, then c4 it. That is all.
Let me try and clarify or explain.
1. The round must extract first before it can eject. That means that the round must fully exit the chamber and the ejector must kick it loose.
2. I don't know how the RO (whomever that is) can say it is the extractor definitively. If the chamber is tight (and they are known to be) that will slow down or stop the extraction process which means that the bolt can still travel to the rear, strip another round and then attempt to fed it.
3. If that isn't happening and it is simply not ejecting then you to change the ejector spring.
The problem is that you have purchased a used upper of unknown origin (in that you don't know how many rounds were through it) you probably don't know if it truly functioned ever (most people sell uppers for one or two reasons, you guess what they are) and without having a competent person to examine it, you are simply chasing your tail.
If you have a known quality BCG and it is doing the same thing then the issue is almost certainly the chamber. I would also throw that Spike's buffer in the trash and get a real one. Also, check the buffer spring, measure it and tell us how long it is.
Thanks for the responses.
A few things to re-iterate:
1. It is a Rguns complete upper mated to a Spikes complete lower, so the BCG is Rguns. Not sure how many rounds was fired before I bought it, but my first range visit to test it out (~100rds) this issue didn't happen. Could've just been a fluke?
2. When I swapped the Rguns BCG out with my roomate's Spikes BCG, the issue somewhat still happens. With the Spikes BCG, the spent case will not eject all the way; it gets stuck in the open chamber. the next round isn't able to load.
3. The Buffer is Spikes T2 and is well lubed. I'm planning to upgrade to a T3 and a new spring and see if this helps.
My thoughts is that its a combination of a tight chamber and mostly just a not very good upper overall. I will take it to the range again as soon as the new parts come in and give you guys an update.
If it happened with 2 different BCG's then I am going to say that the real issue here is the barrel (chamber).
Your only real solution is to have the chamber reamed or for you to replace the barrel.
Buying more buffers, springs, etc... isn't going to solve it.
Thanks for the responses.
A few things to re-iterate:
1. It is a Rguns complete upper mated to a Spikes complete lower, so the BCG is Rguns. Not sure how many rounds was fired before I bought it, but my first range visit to test it out (~100rds) this issue didn't happen. Could've just been a fluke?
2. When I swapped the Rguns BCG out with my roomate's Spikes BCG, the issue somewhat still happens. With the Spikes BCG, the spent case will not eject all the way; it gets stuck in the open chamber. the next round isn't able to load.
3. The Buffer is Spikes T2 and is well lubed. I'm planning to upgrade to a T3 and a new spring and see if this helps.
My thoughts is that its a combination of a tight chamber and mostly just a not very good upper overall. I will take it to the range again as soon as the new parts come in and give you guys an update.
TacticalSledgehammer
02-18-12, 09:40
I'm not sure this would work, but may help some. Have you ever tried polishing your chamber with a drill, cleaning rod and brass brush? It won't do much with a tight chamber but will remove any debris, burrs that could exist in the chamber.
I'd say go sell it on gunboards. They love Rguns over there and think they're top tier.
You could see if anyone or any smiths in your area do work on ARs and if they have true 5.56 chamber reamers. Just to ensure that the chamber isn't smaller than it should be.
Since the chamber isn't likely to be chromed as it should be (which also helps avoid problems like this), you won't have to worry about damaging the chrome lining.
This sounds alot like post #42.
You could see if anyone or any smiths in your area do work on ARs and if they have true 5.56 chamber reamers. Just to ensure that the chamber isn't smaller than it should be.
Since the chamber isn't likely to be chromed as it should be (which also helps avoid problems like this), you won't have to worry about damaging the chrome lining.
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