View Full Version : Open Carry RANT
I want to get on my Soap Box for a few about open carry. But first let me State that I believe and support the Second Amendment 110%. My Bitch is with how some people abuse the privilege of Open Carry. But come on folks let’s do it right and not Look like a Jack Wagon while open carrying in public.
I was in Chick-fil-A in Chantilly today for lunch and this Jack Wagon was open carrying, first thing I noticed his Revolver hanging off his belt it looked like an S&W N/L frame, second thing was his the belt was all stretched and would not support the weight of the revolver it was all flapping in the wind, next was his holster……..It looked like something Barney Fife would carry. I am glad it had a thumb snap to hold to keep the revolver from falling out. He was getting looks from everyone who saw his handgun and a few moms moved their kids away from him as he walked by, he was totally oblivious to his surroundings and how he carried his gun.
Please when you go out in public carrying either open or concealed take some Pride in yourself and being an armed citizen. Be aware of your surroundings and how people around you are reacting to you and don’t act like a Jack Wagon with you gun on your hip for the whole world to see!
Now Come on Guys; this is what gives all of us a big black eye in the public and gives Gun Owners a bad rap.
A little about me, I have been carrying a handgun almost every day for the last 20 years and been carrying concealed the last 10+ years as a FED LEO and would NEVER go out in public looking like this guy.
Last but least get out and Vote and support the organizations that support and fight for our 2nd Amendment rights.
Rant off fee free to Bash me all you want, I have really thick skin.
Dave
Littlelebowski
02-16-12, 15:19
Agreed 100%, Dave. The open carry forum is ****ing whacked. They're all about going shopping and eating and getting noticed.
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Evil Colt 6920
02-16-12, 15:55
Im with you 100%. I live in an open carry state and its extremely rare to see someone open carry here. It has always bothered me that people dont exercise their right to carry. BUT THEN I went to Pa. around Christmas to visit n-laws and saw a guy in a gas station wearing jogging pants, a sweater and house shoes(looked like his PJ's) with a glock flopping around on his hip. Thats when it hit me that if open carry were more common, we would have a lot of morons participating to make the rest of us look bad :suicide2:
Open carry legal around here too. Only time I can recall seeing people open carry though is around the time the sheepherders come down for supplies and that ain't very often.
Once in a blue moon you'll see this one jackass walking down main street, eating an ice cream cone that he bought on the corner, carrying a bag from the thrift store, where he also went in to buy something, on his way to go eat some fried macaroni and cheese at the deli down at the end of the street. He makes sure to go into every store just to see if anyone hasn't noticed how bad ass he is yet.
Everybody knows who he is, he's already used up his 10 seconds of notoriety and everyone pretty much ignores him. I hope he tries to come into the bar where I work on weekends someday. He'll get an earful.
Oh, and being I forgot to mention it, he's about as jumpy as a tick on a drowning dog. Kinda actually scares me!
I couldn't agree more.
I live in Nebraska and we are an open carry state also. I fully support the right to do so, but why is it always the dipshits that decide to do it?
I can't imagine a single benefit over carrying concealed, other than to get attention. Do these people not realize that the attention they garner is not at all the kind they want?
Is it some kind of "I want to look like a cop without all the work & stuff" disorder?:haha:
Cesiumsponge
02-16-12, 17:20
I see folks open carry maybe once every other month. To me, its like the folks with the giant gaudy brand stickers all over their car. Thanks for advertising to the world exactly what you got. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. I CAN walk around with a pointy white hood on my head, but I have enough common sense not to (actually I could probably pull it off since I'm not caucasian :D)
Unless you have the badge and uniform to go with it, open carry is a bad idea from a tactical standpoint. CCW is effective because of the element of surprise and in CCW states, the BGs can never be sure who is armed.
And yes, you pretty much look like a douche. As a general rule, you should downplay your badassedness. Avoid being a billboard for your hobbies and political affiliation/beliefs. Something about being the 'grey man'...
Voodoo_Man
02-16-12, 17:23
Around here (PA) most people know better than to open carry (even though its legal) they are asking for bad publicity so they just conceal carry. Why have the headache and be labeled a douche-wagon...?
I was talking to one of my buddies about this the other day. I saw my first OC'er at the liquor store a few weeks ago and he really stuck out. Young guy, well dressed in a "Polo" and slacks, looking perfectly presentable, but the fact that his situational awareness was an absolute zero and he acted like the gun on his hip was either a fashion accessory or a cell phone really didn't inspire much confidence in his ability to openly carry a firearm.
After a bit of discussion and thought on the matter I think most of the OC guys were picked on in high school, they're socially retarded and carrying openly gives them a sort of confidence that they lack on their own. My perception is that they're afraid to go out, interact with other people and are what most people would consider "nerdy" and are in fact very intimidated by most other people in society and probably border on being recluse.
I also think in their minds that it gives them an opening to speak to other people that they wouldn't normally have the courage to associate with. They're often well versed on the technicalities of the law and when given the opportunity like to educate people on the subtleties of laws pertaining to the open carrying of firearms. Little do they realize most people don't give a shit and just feel uncomfortable around the guy with the black trench coat sporting his Hi-Point in his nylon Uncle Mike's tactical thigh holster.
I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general and wouldn't want anyone to infringe on their rights but I do think most of them are living in a bit of a fantasy world. I've had to OC a few times out of necessity and nobody's even noticed when I did but the fact remains that I think most people should conceal their firearm. I really don't feel any different about the wingnuts with badges who sport their G26 in a Serpa to go have lunch by my house either. Nobody gives a shit that you're a cop in plain clothes so put your pea shooter away.
Voodoo_Man
02-16-12, 18:02
I'm a staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment and gun rights in general and wouldn't want anyone to infringe on their rights but I do think most of them are living in a bit of a fantasy world. I've had to OC a few times out of necessity and nobody's even noticed when I did but the fact remains that I think most people should conceal their firearm. I really don't feel any different about the wingnuts with badges who sport their G26 in a Serpa to go have lunch by my house either. Nobody gives a shit that you're a cop in plain clothes so put your pea shooter away.
I am just speculating here, but those cops might have to do so per their dept. policy. I know it sounds stupid and lord knows no one agrees with it, but police brass/admin usually think up this type of thing on the regular.
I am just speculating here, but those cops might have to do so per their dept. policy. I know it sounds stupid and lord knows no one agrees with it, but police brass/admin usually think up this type of thing on the regular.
That's cool and I understand. However, when I took my wife and son to Fuddrucker's the other day for lunch there was about a dozen of them in there and I thought it was an open carry convention, seriously. No one was wearing a badge by their Serpa and they all had little Metro ID badges, not very visible, hanging on dogtag chains.
Either way you cut it they looked like the typical OC'er, including their dress, and many people were giving them sideways glances.
A guy I know posted this on his facebook the other day in regards to the Starbucks buycott.
"Went into the SBC on XXX HWY, Shoulder rig, XD 40 SC with 3 Xtended mags, TCP on my hip IWB... Donning my (local gun forum) shirt :O)"
I bought Starbucks as well, while concealing a weapon. I didn't have to tell anyone.
What the **** is the point of OC'ing your back-up gun?
I agree with all of you. May I add my own observation:
I think the open carry thing is akin to showing your penis in public. Since that is illegal, the gun is the closest phallic symbol.
JBecker 72
02-16-12, 19:27
You should have seen the guys who open carried unloaded firearms out here, what a joke that was.
Little do they realize most people don't give a shit and just feel uncomfortable around the guy with the black trench coat sporting his Hi-Point in his nylon Uncle Mike's tactical thigh holster.
LMAO
You should have seen the guys who open carried unloaded firearms out here, what a joke that was.
I understand the reason the vast majority of people were open carrying in Kalifornia and it's a much bigger issue than just "open carrying" for the sake of doing it. For them it truly is a political reason and they're trying to gain attention to the fact that they can't get a concealed carry permit. I don't necessarily agree with their tactics but I do understand their position and it's a valid one.
Now if the dipshit, scumbag, piece of shit politicians and police chiefs who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution would support the 2nd Amendment and grant those people permission to exercise their RIGHTS there wouldn't be nearly the amount of knuckleheads wearing unloaded weapons in public and it wouldn't be an issue.
I think the vast majority of people make a mountain out of a mole hill concerning OC anyways. The vast majority of people who aren't involved in the gun culture probably have no clue about it other than a 2 minute blurb on the evening news and they forgot about that as soon as the spot on who Kim Kardashian's banging came on.
Eurodriver
02-16-12, 20:48
OC is 100% illegal in my state.
Today I saw a man in slacks, a white dress shirt and a tie walking down the street. You can imagine my surprise when I saw a gun on his hip.
He looked very professional, his holster was securely fastened to his belt and it looked very neat and tidy.
...then I saw his badge. But for a minute I thought "Its too bad everyone who OC'd isn't like him..."
I've heard stories like the OPs. Guys with AK47 pistols slung across their back and all sorts of crazy shit.
I would never OC but I wouldn't mind if everyone OC'd if they were as presentable as that LEO.
Utah is an OC state. Back in 94 I did it some but have not since I got my permit around 96.
I have seen a few people in Wal-Mart or around OC but not very often. They usually have decent holsters and a 1911 or something similar. Nothing that would embarrass me as a gun owner. Usually older (middle age or older) guys.
For some people, they OC around their ranch and stuff and going down to the store to go shopping is just another place they go. They basically OC everywhere as part of their daily routine. (That is what they looked like -- who knows if these particular people had a ranch or did it regularly). I've only seen a few in the 9 years since I moved back to Utah.
-
All rights can be abused.
Freedom of speech means the KKK and Black Israelites are free to voice their hate and stupidity.
Freedom of religion means we have to deal with stupid people who believe Xenu and thetans actually exist.
Stupid people are allowed to vote and idiots can buy and carry guns.
These things are the price of freedom, and if you start restricting them you lay the groundwork to be restricted. There is no perfect solution or we'd already be doing it.
I personally would rather have some Bubba retard open carrying his Barney Fife rig in my Chic Fil A than have somebody killed in a robbery because they didn't have a means to protect themselves. Doesn't sound like he did anything to anyone and open carry is no more offensive than a Malcom X t shirt.
You may find his carry setup substandard, I might even agree with you. But I guarantee no matter how you or I carry, somebody somewhere will find it substandard and have a poor opinion of us as a result and many more think we should not be allowed to carry at all. Even more don't even think we should have guns in the first place.
So next time you see Barney Fife, instead of being upset, remind yourself how lucky you are that you don't live in some place where it simply wouldn't be allowed like Chicago, DC or LA. And if it really bothers you still, maybe do something proactive like suggest a better carry rig.
OC is 100% illegal in my state.
Today I saw a man in slacks, a white dress shirt and a tie walking down the street. You can imagine my surprise when I saw a gun on his hip.
He looked very professional, his holster was securely fastened to his belt and it looked very neat and tidy.
...then I saw his badge. But for a minute I thought "Its too bad everyone who OC'd isn't like him..."
I've heard stories like the OPs. Guys with AK47 pistols slung across their back and all sorts of crazy shit.
I would never OC but I wouldn't mind if everyone OC'd if they were as presentable as that LEO.
So well dressed people can exercise their rights but people in jeans and t shirts should not? Is that really the position you want to advocate?
Think it is often a case of far end laziness. To lazy to get a permit, do the class, or what ever the state law is and/or find CC to uncomfortable because of gear selection or to time consuming. Next step up the evolutionary chain is the once a blue moon CC crowd.
Now some have other reasons, issues, and needs that will drive this decision and they can be very legitimate or retarded but I have to nod with SteyrAUG in that as long as its being done and doable then its a plus. Hopefully education will improve as I think it has been over the years and we won't see the stupid stuff as much over time although we will probably see it more before it becomes less.
DeltaSierra
02-16-12, 22:59
So well dressed people can exercise their rights but people in jeans and t shirts should not? Is that really the position you want to advocate?
Reminds me of a thread you started a while back...
Now some have other reasons, issues, and needs that will drive this decision and they can be very legitimate or retarded but I have to nod with SteyrAUG in that as long as its being done and doable then its a plus. Hopefully education will improve as I think it has been over the years and we won't see the stupid stuff as much over time although we will probably see it more before it becomes less.
Well if the prevailing attitudes here get there way there will never be an improvement because they're won't be open carry. Much like with CCW improvement comes with acceptance.
Back in the 80s those who could conceal carry typically put a revolver in their pants pocket or a 1911 in the small of their back. The closest thing to a CCW holster was some Galco $5 hunk of crap which very few people used. Guys with a lot of money might buy a Miami Vice shoulder rig for cool points. But only the most serious guys (those writing books) were using anything beyond what could be purchased at Kmart.
As for open carry, I started with a 1911 in a GI flap holster on a GI duty belt long, long ago. I've learned a few things and made some changes for the better since then. As with virtually everything they're are significant advantages and disadvantages related to open carry firearms. Given the tropical climate in S. Florida I wish we had the option. But even if we did have OC, I would still conceal a great deal of the time.
We also need to get past perceptions, if we take Barney Fife in the original story and he drops his S&W in his pants pocket what has really changed? Is he now safer, more competent, better able to defend himself and less of a threat to those around him? The reality is he is exactly the same person and the only thing that changed is now you do not KNOW he is armed. So why are so many here fearing the gun? I kinda appreciate the fair warning when somebody who may be a dumbass shows me they are armed. It can be really scary to find out at the last minute with no warning.
Tactically, open carry is not a good idea. Politically, open carry is necessary. Like the OP states, use your friggen head when you OC!
Here's some food for thought....
If I were surrounded by a bunch of thugs that wanted to kick my arse and no one in the group was armed, I would pick the biggest guy in the group and smash his effin face in. This would most likely cause the rest of the group to back off.
Take this analogy into your local fast food joint where some lard ass open carrying his Taurus 8 inch 357 in an Uncle Mike's nylon hunting holster. A bad guy walks in fixing to rob the place and I can guarantee that the bad guy is going to shoot lard ass in the face before he can drop his 6 double cheeseburgers and protect himself with his open carry glory rig.
Last weekend at a rather large gun show in Philly, there was a dealer walking around carrying a Sig Pro pistol. There were thousands of people in attendance. I will briefly describe his dress.....
Boonie Hat, T shirt, khaki BDU shorts, 6 inch boots, untied with the tongues hanging out and the Sig Pro in some kind of leather holster that didn't fit with the thumb break unsnapped (because the gun didn't fit in the holster). I literally wanted to strip him of his pistol just to prove that he was not aware of his responsibilities while carrying a firearm in a populated public place. Not all gun show attendees are law abiding citizens!
For the record, I was open carrying a Glock 34 with a TLR1 and 2 spare mags. All equipment was carried in a custom kydex holster and mag pouch. My belt is reenforced and tightened and when I was walking through the crowd, my arms were down and my forearm was touching the butt of my pistol and my head was on a swivel.
I know i've said this before, but open carry does about as much for gun rights as assless chaps do for gay rights.
dress appropriately for what you're doing. raising society's ire toward your lifestyle is not in your best interest.
I've actually only run across one open carry guy in my time in colorado (never saw it in NY of course). Fella carrying a sig in the grocery store. to his credit he did seem to have a decent holster and belt and wasn't acting like a yahoo. Still i don't think people who are on the fence about guns see that and think "wow i'd sure like to see more guys with guns in public"
I understand the thought process...carrying guns in the open to support and exercise our rights.
From a tactical standpoint why the hell would you would people seeing your gun before you see them. Survival 101 is to blend in, hard to blend in when people are staring at you because you are wearing a gun.
It seems that many of the people out there who open carry are the same ones that get interviewed by the news camera after a tornado.
There is an epidemic of people wearing $500-$700 guns in $10 holsters, and a church belt out of their closet. Luckily most of them conceal it.- George
Eurodriver
02-17-12, 08:22
So well dressed people can exercise their rights but people in jeans and t shirts should not? Is that really the position you want to advocate?
No. I'm saying only white, handsome, Christian, middle aged males should be allowed to OC. (If you're going to make dumb assumptions, you might as well go all the way bro)
Cesiumsponge
02-17-12, 09:16
Folks here mention all the oblivious folks open carrying. I would posit that just as many concealed carry people are equally oblivious to their environment. In fact, since CCW is more prevalent than OC, the gross numbers of oblivious CCW folks is higher than Bubba with his shiny six shooter in a floppy fruit of the loom holster. We pass by these oblivious CCW folks daily.
Resorting to the "what if" game of OC drawing criminals or deterring them is a question we'll never have figures to back up; its all conjecture. Please believe, if Joe Bob OCing got his gun taken by a punk and the poop went down, the media would be all over that story. I haven't ever come across such a story to date. Can anyone cite to such a story? I'm simply glad we live in a country where the pressing topic of the day are the folks exercising their rights in possibly goofy ways.
Please believe, if Joe Bob OCing got his gun taken by a punk and the poop went down, the media would be all over that story. I haven't ever come across such a story to date. Can anyone cite to such a story?
This is the only one I'm aware of. http://youtu.be/zx_YUO4SzcY
Raven Armament
02-17-12, 10:01
My state is an OC state and I like it. If I'm riding my motorcycle and the wind blows my shirt or jacket up a bit, I'm still legal. If I reach up a little bit more than usual and my shirt rides over the holster, I'm still legal. If I bend weird and my gun prints, I'm still legal. Nice to have that.
I've OC'd a few times in town, like after hunting or doing a demo at the range and was in too much of a rush to put on a jacket to walk in and pay for gas and grab a candy bar for my son. And no I'm not decked out in camo. I wear normal clothes and an orange hat when required and when I leave the woods the hat comes off.
In the cases where I OC, I've got a gun belt that is tight and a quality holster with retention and my situational awareness is always turned up when I'm awake. Same as when it's concealed.
Folks here mention all the oblivious folks open carrying. I would posit that just as many concealed carry people are equally oblivious to their environment. In fact, since CCW is more prevalent than OC, the gross numbers of oblivious CCW folks is higher than Bubba with his shiny six shooter in a floppy fruit of the loom holster. We pass by these oblivious CCW folks daily.
Resorting to the "what if" game of OC drawing criminals or deterring them is a question we'll never have figures to back up; its all conjecture. Please believe, if Joe Bob OCing got his gun taken by a punk and the poop went down, the media would be all over that story. I haven't ever come across such a story to date. Can anyone cite to such a story? I'm simply glad we live in a country where the pressing topic of the day are the folks exercising their rights in possibly goofy ways.
While I understand what you are getting at, if people can't SEE the gun, there's a lot less likelihood of a gun grab.
I'm all for people exercising their rights, but there is something to be said about dressing a little sharper, carrying yourself a little more professionally and knowing what the hell is going on around you... rather than walking the streets waiting for a cop to pull up on you so you can flip on your camera and be an internet (z)hero. They're sending a message alright, whether it's the right one or not is the question. Take a look at Youtube someday for these guys. Some are educated in the laws of their area, others are just trying to see how many "hits" they can get on their videos so they can collect the $3.28 check from in vid advertising at the end of the year. (actually, you have to break $100 before Youtube will cut you a check, last time I checked).
Like I said earlier, it doesn't happen all that much around where I live, but I've been places where it does and they generally fall into the categories being bandied about in this thread. Unkempt, unaware, and kinda smelly. Not all the time but enough to cause a stereotype.
Stay safe out there!
So well dressed people can exercise their rights but people in jeans and t shirts should not?
I took it to mean that he was dressed and equipped in a manner the exact polar opposite of the typical OC doucher, and that the badge explained why that was the case. Particular evidence being the posted statement of "Its too bad everyone who OC'd isn't like him..."
That was a lament, not advocacy. In my own locale, I only WISH the prototypical OC halfwit would do T-shirt and jeans. Unfortunately, it's more like a "People of Wal-Mart" slideshow...
Do I care about what they wear, in and of itself? Hell, no.
Do I strongly question the decision-making process that led that individual to their choices of clothing, hygiene (i.e., its lack), behavior....? Hell, yes.
May help to actually ask questions, instead of belting out statements poorly dusguided as questions. Being in set in type as it is, hanging a question mark on the end of what's pretty clearly a conclusion you've arrived at is the bad toupee of rhetorical tricks, especially since it's designed to get a rise out of another.
I support the right to open carry where legal, but agree that it's usually not a great idea, and if you're going to do it, at least use some common sense.
Open carry is legal in WA state, so you do see it here, more in the smaller towns and suburbs, almost never in Seattle. Some guys I've seen who open carry, and I'm thinking especially of one I know from my work, seem to have a sort of emotional disorder. They're angry at the world about a lot of things, and they have this need to tell (and show) everybody that "I don't give a @#$% about your standards: I'm armed and proud of it."
The fact that some have this approach, doesn't mean that OC is entirely bad. However, I never do it anymore. It just didn't seem tactically, or practically, all that effective. I know the arguments pro and con, but I just am not that convinced. If societal conditions change, if there's a massive social breakdown such as the aftermath of some disaster, there MIGHT be cases where OC would make sense in that context.
Cesiumsponge
02-17-12, 11:24
Others seeing or not seeing the gun is irrelevant because an armed CCW wandering in condition white is just as likely to fall victim to crime as Mrs. Daisy. If you're oblivious and toss out the pre-flight checklist, you're a potential mark. Having a gun isn't very useful for when you already have a knife against your neck.
People keep referring to the gun grab. I want to know how often this phenomena takes place. Yes, it is a rational tactical fear on paper but it doesn't seem to manifest in real life. I think we all agree that the daydreaming OCer has a poor chance at retaining their firearm but I simply don't see criminals grabbing guns of OCers on any sort of trendable basis. We've seen videos of it happen to law enforcement but their job is to go looking for bad guys. It's different for civilians.
Wearing a nice peak lapeled three-piece suit while open carrying isn't going to change the opinions of onlookers. If you're a suited civilian OCing, people will assume you're executive security or some other suit-bearing LEO. I've also found that if you dress like a gentleman, you get a lot more attention than going casual. The ladies love it but folks think you're wealthy which isn't necessarily the kind of attention I like.
Again I don't particularly care for OC. I like having an ace up my sleeve. I don't care for some of the OCers I've seen, but I also don't care for a lot of questionable gun owners I've seen either. It's just the way things are.
Cesium... agreed. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you, just pointing out the other side of the coin.
I don't dress to the 'nines' all the time, but what I wear is deliberate. That may have been a better way of getting across what I meant. Deliberate. Of the OC guys I've seen that have given me the vision I have in my head right now, nothing about their dress or attitude seemed to be deliberate. Like they just woke up, grabbed whatever clothes where handy and slapped a gun on, while forgetting to grab their "situational awareness" off the nightstand.
Cesiumsponge
02-17-12, 11:40
Zhurdan, yeah I think most of us feel similar..."we support OC but meh". I wasn't picking on anyone. I agree there are some real mutants out there who own firearms but its ultimately the price we pay for a less regulated second amendment and I fan live with that.
I think sloppy dressing applies to most Americans nowadays, not just the OCers. Holy hell, I'm tired of seeing grown men and women in pajamas in public. That's a rant for another day though.
This is the only one I'm aware of. http://youtu.be/zx_YUO4SzcY
People keep referring to the gun grab. I want to know how often this phenomena takes place. Yes, it is a rational tactical fear on paper but it doesn't seem to manifest in real life.
If you're not going to read people's responses then you shouldn't pose questions.
CarlosDJackal
02-17-12, 11:53
Agreed 100%, Dave. The open carry forum is ****ing whacked. They're all about going shopping and eating and getting noticed.
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Most of the people I know who open carry do it for one of two reasons. The first and most prevalent is as has been said above - to get noticed. They might insist that they are just practicing their Second Amendment rights. But in reality they harken back to their childhood where wearing a particular hat, uniform or equipment makes them feel more than they are.
The second reason is they are just plain lazy. Too lazy to take the time to throw on a jacket or a loose shirt. A good friend of mine does this and the last time I met him to dinner the waitresses started asking him if he was the Police. I literally stepped away from him so as not to get caught in the crossfire but the same waitress made the assumption that I was also carrying (I was carrying concealed). He could have avoided the whole thing by throwing on a shirt or his jacket and leaving it on (like he use to all the time).
I have since made every effort not to go to a restaurant or anywhere in public with anyone who likes to carry openly.
CarlosDJackal
02-17-12, 12:09
...People keep referring to the gun grab. I want to know how often this phenomena takes place. Yes, it is a rational tactical fear on paper but it doesn't seem to manifest in real life...
For THIS INDIVIDUAL (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/news/2011/dec/03/4/teen-homicide-suspects-had-felony-convictions-ar-1510369/) it happened one too many times.
I grew up in a third world country when permanently placing a school parking sticker on your car can result in it somehow catching fire in certain neighborhoods or locations. A government access sticker on your car is also a invitation for the anti-government forces to try and take you out regardless of what your job or position is in.
This is why My dad never did any of those things and is the same reason I do not have anything on my car that indicated I am a Gun Owner or a member of the NRA.
If I were a scumbag who was robbing a store or a bank and there was someone there who was open carrying; I would paying that individual special attention. And if I belonged to the 1% that has no problem murdering anyone who got in my way; I would immediately put a bullet into that OC's head and take his or her gun away.
What are the chances that this would ever happen? Pretty damned slim. But then again so are the chances of two teenage thugs grabbing your OC gun and using against you and some other poor sap. But there you have it. Because the first victim decided not to exercise his right to carry concealed, a second person was killed using his stolen gun.
I'd be willing to bet the family of the second victim is wondering why the original victim did not take full advantage of his Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP). I am more impressed with those who can effectively conceal the handgun they have than those who carry one openly. JM2CW.
Tactically, open carry is not a good idea.
There is both a deterrence and an invitation to danger factor that is hugely subjective to the parties involved and their location.
If you have a Granny OC a really nice 1911 in a bad area people are going to line up to hit her over the head and take her gun. If you have a guy who looks like Mike Tyson OC a Glock in the business district of Vegas nobody is gonna mess with him.
But even in the worst scenario, you are more at risk by wearing a 10,000 watch than open carrying a firearm. And there are plenty of Rolex watches out there.
Raven Armament
02-17-12, 12:22
Most people won't notice an openly carried handgun because 95% of the population doesn't go around looking at people's hips to check for a weapon. Dressing around the gun is just as important with OC as it is with CC. White shirt OCing a Glock in a black holster will stand out much more than if one were wearing black pants and a black shirt with the same setup.
It is rather interesting how society's view on carrying weapons has changed over the decades, namely in the 20th century.
No. I'm saying only white, handsome, Christian, middle aged males should be allowed to OC. (If you're going to make dumb assumptions, you might as well go all the way bro)
I didn't make any assumptions. I asked questions and provided an opportunity for clarification. I did that because I wasn't positive that was the POV you wanted to advocate, but it did read a LOT like that.
I took it to mean that he was dressed and equipped in a manner the exact polar opposite of the typical OC doucher, and that the badge explained why that was the case. Particular evidence being the posted statement of "Its too bad everyone who OC'd isn't like him..."
That was a lament, not advocacy. In my own locale, I only WISH the prototypical OC halfwit would do T-shirt and jeans. Unfortunately, it's more like a "People of Wal-Mart" slideshow...
OK, I missed that. I keyed in on the business attire thing mostly. If Euro was only addressing decent holsters and such that is completely different and I would agree. Sadly there will always be guys who lower the bar enough so that it can be walked over.
Even in the CCW crowd there are those who drop a pistol in their pocket or purse.
The second reason is they are just plain lazy. Too lazy to take the time to throw on a jacket or a loose shirt.
I'd like the option to OC during the hottest summer months. August in S. Florida really isn't jacket or second shirt weather. Right now I just use a reporters vest but even that traps more than a little heat.
There is both a deterrence and an invitation to danger factor that is hugely subjective to the parties involved and their location.
Agree that the deterrence argument is an interesting (and possibly a valid) argument for OC. You cannot directly make the leap from residential scenarios to OC on your person, but there have been studies indicating a certain deterrent effect when, for instance, robbers planning a break-in know that the occupants of a building are armed.
How effective this deterrent is, and whether it would apply in a case of an individual doing OC, and whether it applies to many different criminal scenarios, is hard to say. But it's an idea I've always found interesting. It would be cool if somebody has done a study to confirm if OC really has this deterrent effect.
For myself, I still see enough tactical "advantage" in the approach of folks not knowing whether I carry or not. The idea of OC'ing, both for personal reasons (convenience, etc.) and also with the idea of "deterrming BG's in public", still seems more fraught with unnecessary risks IMO, as opposed to just having a CCW.
Cesiumsponge
02-17-12, 13:20
If you're not going to read people's responses then you shouldn't pose questions.
I saw that. Holy hell, stop the presses! I appreciate the link, but even you state its the only one you've come across. We have tallied enough cases to count on one hand with fingers to spare. I stated curiosity in how common this was and the answer so far seems to be, "not very". Maybe I should start giving credibility to the Brady Campaign's arguments that a criminal will just take your gun if you encounter them with a gun because it happens once in a blue moon? The streets aren't running red with the blood of innocents gunned down by criminals taking guns from open carriers.
I saw that. Holy hell, stop the presses! I appreciate the link, but even you state its the only one you've come across. We have tallied enough cases to count on one hand with fingers to spare.
I'm with you and think it's over blown as well. Kinda like Steyr was saying... Plenty of people walking around with expensive watches and jewelry on who have their heads in the clouds. I'm not sure what's more appealing to a criminal though.
Hey everyone thanks for all the great replies and thought on the subject. I cross posted this same thread on a few other sites I frequent and by FAR this site understands where I was coming from. If you are going to OC in public do it SAFLEY for God’s sake………
I did go and speak to the jack Wagon and kindly told him to get his Shit together and how he was being Unsafe carrying in such a manner, he was totally oblivious to what I was saying. BTW I was wearing a fleece vest covering my Sig 229, 2 spare mags, cuffs, surefire, and a Blackberry all on my belt and no one even had a Clue I was carrying.
Like I posted on another site; go get a decent Belt and even an Uncle Mikes holster that fits to your body, hell it would cost about as much as eating out for a week…..
Littlelebowski
02-17-12, 16:41
How did the talk with him go?
Belmont31R
02-17-12, 16:57
While I have my own personal opinions on attire and gear if I, myself, were going to open carry (if it were legal here), I didn't realize there was a dress code to exercise one's rights.
If you're worried about anti's getting all uppity it makes no difference. If the public at large is so short sighted they are going to become anti-gun because a person OC'ed who wasn't well dressed then we have bigger issues to worry about within the electorate than if someone didn't holster their gun in an expensive piece of leather and didn't have on pressed slacks.
Concealed Carry is not perfect for every situation, either. Id like to see someone get a gun out of their IWB holster from the seated position in a car like mine with form fitting seats, a over shirt, seat belt on, ect. Ive tried it, and even without the stress of say a car jacker at the window it takes me 4-5 seconds + I have to lean forward and to the side awkwardly.
I am for all types of carry and I don't really care of some brain dead scared of everything soccer mom doesn't like it. She is far more dangerous in her huge SUV yacking on the phone all day not paying attention to the road than any average OCer.
Hey everyone thanks for all the great replies and thought on the subject. I cross posted this same thread on a few other sites I frequent and by FAR this site understands where I was coming from. If you are going to OC in public do it SAFLEY for God’s sake………
I did go and speak to the jack Wagon and kindly told him to get his Shit together and how he was being Unsafe carrying in such a manner, he was totally oblivious to what I was saying. BTW I was wearing a fleece vest covering my Sig 229, 2 spare mags, cuffs, surefire, and a Blackberry all on my belt and no one even had a Clue I was carrying.
Like I posted on another site; go get a decent Belt and even an Uncle Mikes holster that fits to your body, hell it would cost about as much as eating out for a week…..
Not trying to create a problem, but what exactly was unsafe about his carry rig? Which of the four rules of gun safety was violated by his crappy belt and holster? Had a thumbsnap so unless his belt gave way he had control of the weapon.
And while a flappy, crappy holster might end up pointing at somebody if he sat down, it is less likely than with a shoulder holster setup and I don't see anyone complaining about cops who use such holsters (even though I personally prefer not to sit or stand behind them).
I guess I'm just not understanding why everyone is so bothered. If they had any understanding about how many people CCW by just sticking a gun in the small of their back or go Mexican carry their heads would probably explode. But I guess if you can't see the problem you don't worry about the problem.
Would you have really found more acceptance if this same guy put the same gun in a jacket pocket loose or in the small of his back?
How did the talk with him go?
He was really pissed that I called him out. He was upset that I called him UNSAT and how UNSAFE his carry method was. I asked him if he had any formal training, he was NO I don't need that crap. I just Smiled and gave him a Ear full and wished him a Good day.
Not trying to create a problem, but what exactly was unsafe about his carry rig? Which of the four rules of gun safety was violated by his crappy belt and holster? Had a thumbsnap so unless his belt gave way he had control of the weapon.
And while a flappy, crappy holster might end up pointing at somebody if he sat down, it is less likely than with a shoulder holster setup and I don't see anyone complaining about cops who use such holsters (even though I personally prefer not to sit or stand behind them).
I guess I'm just not understanding why everyone is so bothered. If they had any understanding about how many people CCW by just sticking a gun in the small of their back or go Mexican carry their heads would probably explode. But I guess if you can't see the problem you don't worry about the problem.
Would you have really found more acceptance if this same guy put the same gun in a jacket pocket loose or in the small of his back?
Well anyone could of it pulled out of his holster without him knowing. He had Zero Situational Awareness of himself or surroundings.
I started this tread about Open Carry and how Jack Wagons like this guy is making the Fight for 2nd Amendment rights even harder.
Belmont31R
02-17-12, 17:39
He was really pissed that I called him out. He was upset that I called him UNSAT and how UNSAFE his carry method was. I just Smiled and gave him a Ear full and wished him a Good day.
Mind your own business would be my advice. I am sure you would be upset if some liberal showed up on the range telling you your AR15 was unsat and unsafe for humanity's sake.
Maybe next time give the guy a thumbs up but mention if he wants to OC theres better ways of doing it. Tell him you'd be happy to go to a range and show him a variety of carry methods he could use with his pistol if he wanted to and that you're just trying to look out for gun owners in general. If he declines then go on your way and thats that. No need to be the OC police.
Well anyone could of it pulled out of his holster without him knowing. He had Zero Situational Awareness of himself or surroundings.
I started this tread about Open Carry and how Jack Wagons like this guy is making the Fight for 2nd Amendment rights even harder.
Well that makes him vulnerable, not unsafe. The same easily applies to people who wear expensive watches or carry lots of cash.
And would you really feel any better if he had simply dropped a handgun in his coat pocket or had it in the small of his back?
Also it is your "opinion" that he harms gun rights. Some would suggest if such things became commonplace that it would become normal and our rights would become more secure. There is obviously some validity to both points of view but the truth is that it is very subjective to the individual and the population where the individual is.
There are parts of the country where Mr. Jackwagon could sit down and the only thing he would be asked is what he wanted to order for lunch. In other parts of the nation every single person would dial 911.
I just don't think it does much good for gun rights when supposedly "pro gun" people champion the views of the anti gun crowd. The reality is he wasn't really doing anything "unsafe" nor was he doing anything that put anyone "in danger." As noted I've seen people carry concealed in a far more dangerous manner.
He would be exactly the same person with exactly the same problems if his firearm was concealed. I just don't understand why everyone freaks out over a visible "gun." The reality is the gun was a revolver in a clasped holster. You could probably throw a S&W revolver against a wall and it won't discharge. The primary risk sounds like his belt might explode at any moment at which point the gun in the holster would fall to the floor and NOT discharge.
This is far preferable to women who drop Glocks into their purse to swim around with all the other shit and you hope a lipstick or brush doesn't find it's way inside the trigger guard. But at least that is concealed so I don't hear any complaints about those people.
If I get the jist of what SteyrAug is saying, I agree. Rights not exercised are at risk of being lost through complacency. If it is a right today it should always remain so whether you personally choose to exercise it or not. We should side with those persons too because the right we like may be next on the list. The old foot in the door approach.
What "they" cannot take away outright, is slowly taxed out of existence etc etc.
Lack of formal training or knowledge of "proper" holster has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, it is a right. If we start to side with the proper training crowd to eligible to exercise our right; then we become dependent of the government to decide on the training, deciding what we can carry, pay for license etc etc.
I say let it be and nature may cull the herd but leave our rights alone.
And yes, I respond get dispatched to those calls from snowbirds and Yankees who visit our sun in the winter and are shocked by those who open carry.
I say let it be and nature may cull the herd but leave our rights alone.
I don't see anybody suggesting that rights to carry be restricted. Or if they did, I missed it.
I think the discussion is mainly about how OC folks conduct themselves, and the wisdom or effectiveness of doing it, not its legal status or whether someone has a right to it.
Belmont31R
02-17-12, 21:06
I don't see anybody suggesting that rights to carry be restricted. Or if they did, I missed it.
I think the discussion is mainly about how OC folks conduct themselves, and the wisdom or effectiveness of doing it, not its legal status or whether someone has a right to it.
That always ends up being a reason why even stout gun owners don't support OC.
Littlelebowski
02-17-12, 21:31
I know kittyhawk personally and I guarandamnedtee you that if he says it's unsafe and unsat, it is. He's a humble, good shooter that is committed to our 2A rights.
kittyhawk, what no SIG P250 :D
I know kittyhawk personally and I guarandamnedtee you that if he says it's unsafe and unsat, it is. He's a humble, good shooter that is committed to our 2A rights.
kittyhawk, what no SIG P250 :D
And to be clear, I am not trying to start a beef. Hell I didn't even intend to upset Euro, I was only asking for clarification. But in both cases, I only have what they wrote to go on. And it "seemed" like Euro was saying something he may not have intended and from what kittyhawk wrote I didn't read anything unsafe.
I still don't see how a revolver in a snapped clasp holster can be deemed unsafe even if it is worn around the neck on a rope. Stupid as all get out for sure, but not unsafe.
And I'm willing to accept his description of Mr. Jackwagon as 100% accurate and if I saw him I'd probably roll my eyes and groan a bit. The only thing I'm suggesting is we think long and hard before we start down the road with the suggestions that Mr. Old Fuddydutty shouldn't be allowed to do this or that because we don't approve of how he does it.
I really do wish that all gun owners were safe and carried in a responsible manner. But that is right up there with wishing all drivers were safe and considerate and all cops were honest and incorruptible. It ain't gonna happen.
The bottom line is more than a few gun owners are retards who do questionable things. The only difference between the CCW retards and the OC retards is the OC retards give you more warning because we can see they are armed. That really is the only point I'm trying to get across.
Other than that I hate to see the firearm community divide itself. I hate when people talk of "Fudds" in reference to all hunters / outdoorsmen. I understand many use the term exclusively in the context of people who support hunting and trap shooting but think AR 15s should be banned, but not everyone recognizes that distinction. Obviously I hate when the duck hunting crowd thinks nobody needs a AR-15 or an Uzi.
I hate when the CCW crowd is derisive of those who OC, and if I saw instances of the OC guys being derisive of those who CCW that would bother me just as much. Basically I hate it when we allow ourselves to be divided over what constitutes an "acceptable firearm" or "permissible carry." There is actually NOTHING in the Constitution regarding the governments right to limit "what arms" are acceptable or how we may "bear them."
It's bad enough the anti gun crowd attempts to limit freedoms along such lines, it's even worse that our government has passed laws such as the 1968 GCA with the "sporter clause" which actually DOES limit our freedoms, the only thing worse is when we buy into it.
While I personally think OC should be legal in every state, I also understand the reality of things and the fact that it isn't. I also completely understand that CCW is a viable and effective means for most people to "lawfully bear arms" that didn't exist for many of them only a decade ago. So I of course understand the caution to not upset the applecart. But let's not be so cautious that we provide validity and support to those who would disarm all of us.
ThirdWatcher
02-18-12, 01:11
Open carry is legal in WA state, so you do see it here, more in the smaller towns and suburbs, almost never in Seattle.
OC really isn't that common in WA because CCP's are readily available to every adult that can pass the required background check. I live & work on the dry side and I've only seen it once (a snubnose revolver worn in a belt holster by a bicyclist).
BTW, I'm not trying to start anything but the OP refers to OC as a privilege... that could be so in some jurisdictions, but it is a right in this state.
That was a lament, not advocacy. In my own locale, I only WISH the prototypical OC halfwit would do T-shirt and jeans. Unfortunately, it's more like a "People of Wal-Mart" slideshow...
Here in Tucson, AZ, besides gun store employees, the vast majority of the open carry folks that I have seen have been at Walmart. :sarcastic:
OC really isn't that common in WA because CCP's are readily available to every adult that can pass the required background check.
I'd venture to guess that in EVERY state that has both OC and concealed carry laws, more carry concealed--because it seems (to most of us, anyway) like the more effective option. However on the West side of the Cascades, I'm seeing more OC every year.
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