Elbow Pain.

[NightFighter]

I have noticed that lately I develop right elbow pain when I shoot approx 150-200 rounds through my XD .45 Compact. I want to know if anyone has ever had this problem and if so how do I correct the problem. :mad:

[Gramps]

Problem: Elbow PAIN when SHOOTING.

Solution: PM me for my address so you can send me ALL your FIREARMS so you will NEVER have ANY PAIN again.

Sorry, never heard of any thing like this. Is it any thing like Tennis Elbow?

[mark5pt56]

Other than unknown medical issues, are you locking your elbows to the point of stressing them? There should be a slight(slight) bend in them.

[KintlaLake]

I have noticed that lately I develop right elbow pain when I shoot approx 150-200 rounds through my XD .45 Compact. I want to know if anyone has ever had this problem and if so how do I correct the problem. :mad:

My long-limbed wife has similar issues with her right elbow, NightFighter. The first symptom often is a FTE, if you know what I mean. Glock 26. ;)

She wears a soft brace and takes Aleve, but it only helps so much.

[NightFighter]

Other than unknown medical issues, are you locking your elbows to the point of stressing them? There should be a slight(slight) bend in them.

If I mantain a slight bend in my right elbow wont I lose my ability to control the recoil of my handgun? I am trying to get my handgun to recoil straight up and down.:rolleyes:

[Robb Jensen]

It's likely 'tennis elbow', I developed in last fall after a major 3gun match in Harvard, MA. The remedy for me is to stretch my wrists well before shooting and many times during the day. Also shooting a lighter gun has made a HUGE difference. That way I don't have to muscle the gun as much. I only have it in my left elbow (I'm right handed). I also occasionally use one of the gyro hand excercisers you can get at REI. This is why I stopped shooting my heavy Limited gun as much and shoot more Production w/Glocks or M&Ps. I also and using a different form/stance and it's helped me a lot. I use a version that D.R. Middlebrooks teaches called 'reverse Weaver' with a 'roll over wrist lock' which takes some of the stress off the support hand elbow and helps you control the gun with less effort.

[NightFighter]

It's likely 'tennis elbow', I developed in last fall after a major 3gun match in Harvard, MA. The remedy for me is to stretch my wrists well before shooting and many times during the day. Also shooting a lighter gun has made a HUGE difference. That way I don't have to muscle the gun as much. I only have it in my left elbow (I'm right handed). I also occasionally use one of the gyro hand excercisers you can get at REI. This is why I stopped shooting my heavy Limited gun as much and shoot more Production w/Glocks or M&Ps. I also and using a different form/stance and it's helped me a lot. I use a version that D.R. Middlebrooks teaches called 'reverse Weaver' with a 'roll over wrist lock' which takes some of the stress off the support hand elbow and helps you control the gun with less effort.

What caliber gun did you start with and what caliber did you change to that helped your elbow? I have gotten a Gripmaster and started using that in an effort to strengthen my arm. Are M&Ps lighter than XDs? Where can I learn this different technique that D.R. Middlebrook teachs without having to so to his school. I am leaving NOVA for a while and would like to get an idea of his shooting technique before I leave.

[Robb Jensen]

What caliber gun did you start with and what caliber did you change to that helped your elbow? I have gotten a Gripmaster and started using that in an effort to strengthen my arm. Are M&Ps lighter than XDs? Where can I learn this different technique that D.R. Middlebrook teachs without having to so to his school. I am leaving NOVA for a while and would like to get an idea of his shooting technique before I leave.

My STI is a .40 and my Glock and M&P Production guns are 9mm (My STI is twice as heavier or heavier than the Glock or M&P). The Glocks, M&Ps and XDs (4") are all very close in weight. The XDs will have the most muzzle flip using the same round (higher bore axis and heavier slide). I bought D.R.s book call Fist Fire from his website, it's $20 something and worth it. If you stop by the shop I'll show you how my stance is now. It takes some getting used to as it doesn't feel natural at first. I once in a while find myself going back to modified Isosceles, so I've been doing a lot of 'dry practice' slowly drawing and doing the 'reverse Weaver' stance to ingrain it into habit.

[NightFighter]

My STI is a .40 and my Glock and M&P Production guns are 9mm (My STI is twice as heavier or heavier than the Glock or M&P). The Glocks, M&Ps and XDs (4") are all very close in weight. The XDs will have the most muzzle flip using the same round (higher bore axis and heavier slide). I bought D.R.s book call Fist Fire from his website, it's $20 something and worth it. If you stop by the shop I'll show you how my stance is now. It takes some getting used to as it doesn't feel natural at first. I once in a while find myself going back to modified Isosceles, so I've been doing a lot of 'dry practice' slowly drawing and doing the 'reverse Weaver' stance to ingrain it into habit.

What days and times do you work? Does the book have pictures showing the stance, draw and firing techniques? Has this new technique help you in your competition shooting? Is this new technique really worth me spending my time to learn?

[Robb Jensen]

What days and times do you work? Does the book have pictures showing the stance, draw and firing techniques? Has this new technique help you in your competition shooting? Is this new technique really worth me spending my time to learn?

Next week I'm there Mon, Wed, Thurs & Fri. Yes the book shows pics of the stances, grip etc. I immediately noticed better times and accuracy and control using the new techniques. If you want to be a better shooter it's certainly worth it, especially if you want to shoot with little or no pain.

[mark5pt56]

If I mantain a slight bend in my right elbow wont I lose my ability to control the recoil of my handgun? I am trying to get my handgun to recoil straight up and down.:rolleyes:

You won't loose anything, the slight bend kind of gives the weapon an avenue back, a good wrist lock will assist with managing the flip. That straight up and down is usually over emphasized by some. Yes, it moves some, but not that much. And remember the Chinese quote about the Oak and the Willow.

Why the eye roll?

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Next week I'm there Mon, Wed, Thurs & Fri. Yes the book shows pics of the stances, grip etc. I immediately noticed better times and accuracy and control using the new techniques. If you want to be a better shooter it's certainly worth it, especially if you want to shoot with little or no pain.

I Googled this to try and find images of the grip but couldn't clearly see one.

Is the weak hand wrapped around the strong hand just a little more so that the finger tips are on top of the knuckles?

[Robb Jensen]

I Googled this to try and find images of the grip but couldn't clearly see one.

Is the weak hand wrapped around the strong hand just a little more so that the finger tips are on top of the knuckles?

Here's a pic of an LEO using this technique shooting a Glock 21.

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/glock.jpg

[Joe R.]

GotM4 already hit the nail on the head. It sounds like tendinitis or "tennis elbow"

One way to help alleviate the pain is to strengthen the area around the elbow. This can be done by doing straight arm wrist curls in both a pronated (palms down) and a supinated (palms up) position. The weight should be light, in the area of 5 pounds with higher reps, 15-20. This will help strengthen the area around the wrist and elbow (believe it or not) and help reduce the pain from shooting.

As gotM4 also pointed out you should have someone with real experience check out your shooting stance. Your elbows should NOT be locked. A slight bend in the elbows will allow the gun to track right back into position and less stress on the body.

[Linea_de_Fuego]

Here's a pic of an LEO using this technique shooting a Glock 21.

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/glock.jpg

I think I got it; the strong hand thumb rides behind the weak hand thumb joint rather than in front of it.

[NightFighter]

You won't loose anything, the slight bend kind of gives the weapon an avenue back, a good wrist lock will assist with managing the flip. That straight up and down is usually over emphasized by some. Yes, it moves some, but not that much. And remember the Chinese quote about the Oak and the Willow.

Why the eye roll?

No reason. I am just trying to learn a way of shooting that will let me enjoy the activity without any pain.

[NightFighter]

GotM4 already hit the nail on the head. It sounds like tendinitis or "tennis elbow"

One way to help alleviate the pain is to strengthen the area around the elbow. This can be done by doing straight arm wrist curls in both a pronated (palms down) and a supinated (palms up) position. The weight should be light, in the area of 5 pounds with higher reps, 15-20. This will help strengthen the area around the wrist and elbow (believe it or not) and help reduce the pain from shooting.

As gotM4 also pointed out you should have someone with real experience check out your shooting stance. Your elbows should NOT be locked. A slight bend in the elbows will allow the gun to track right back into position and less stress on the body.

Thanks for the exercise suggestions. I was wondering if there was any specific exercises that would increase the strenght in my elbow. When I tried the suggested exercises I felt the area where I have the pain flex and move. it hurt a little but after a while the pain went away. Thanks a ton. I dont have anyone at this time who is an experienced shooter who can diagnosis my shooting stance and/or grip. So that is why I have to bother the people on the forum for assistance. :( I have started bringing my elbows in closer to my sides and allowing a slight bend into my elbows. I will let everyone know if all this helps over the next couple of weeks.

[Bulldog1967]

I have SEVERE tendinitus of the elbow in my shooting hand and am having surgery/therapy on it next month. NOT cool.

[Robb Jensen]

Thanks for the exercise suggestions. I was wondering if there was any specific exercises that would increase the strenght in my elbow. When I tried the suggested exercises I felt the area where I have the pain flex and move. it hurt a little but after a while the pain went away. Thanks a ton. I dont have anyone at this time who is an experienced shooter who can diagnosis my shooting stance and/or grip. So that is why I have to bother the people on the forum for assistance. :( I have started bringing my elbows in closer to my sides and allowing a slight bend into my elbows. I will let everyone know if all this helps over the next couple of weeks.


Look at Daves (Sevigny) stance (upper body only as he's moving).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/area6_full.jpg

The elbows should always be bent slightly (mark5pt56 already said this too). This gives sort of a spring for recoil, you'll have to try the method to see if it works. You maybe gripping the pistol too hard as well. The firing hand should have about as much grip pressure as you would on a baseball bat. Most of the grip pressure should come from your support hand.

Also poke around on the Brian Enos forums, here's the Tips for Improvement forum within that forum.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=17

And Handgun Techniques.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=1&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0

I also recommend getting some professional instruction since you earlier talked about getting into competitive shooting. Local to NoVA is the NRA Range (intermediate pistol) or http://www.nvtactical.com/ (from Tommy Thacker). I shoot with Tommy in USPSA a little, he's a good shooter and instructor.

[mark5pt56]

No reason. I am just trying to learn a way of shooting that will let me enjoy the activity without any pain.

Hey, with my limited excercise knowledge, I've been taught that for connective tissue, you need 30-50 reps to truly benefit them. Weight should be appropriate to work them vs. the muscle group around it.

I don't know what kind of program you do, but be careful not to overwork to where you are either injuring or on the verge of it. Soreness from workouts are actually injuries sustained to the tissue. Adequate rest and recovery is important. When I powerlifted, I could tell by week 3-4 in a program(8-9 week ones worked best for me) if I was overworking.

To avoid potential long term, I would see a good doctor to insure you aren't making it permanent. I was told by a Chiropractor that there are two types of injuries, the ones you know of right away and the ones you get when you're 60-from the stuff you did years ago.

Hope that helps

Mark

[NightFighter]

The elbows should always be bent slightly (mark5pt56 already said this too). This gives sort of a spring for recoil, you'll have to try the method to see if it works. You maybe gripping the pistol too hard as well. The firing hand should have about as much grip pressure as you would on a baseball bat. Most of the grip pressure should come from your support hand.

Also poke around on the Brian Enos forums, here's the Tips for Improvement forum within that forum.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=17

And Handgun Techniques.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=1&prune_day=100&sort_by=Z-A&sort_key=last_post&topicfilter=all&st=0

I also recommend getting some professional instruction since you earlier talked about getting into competitive shooting. Local to NoVA is the NRA Range (intermediate pistol) or http://www.nvtactical.com/ (from Tommy Thacker). I shoot with Tommy in USPSA a little, he's a good shooter and instructor.
Thanks for the hyperlinks to Brian Enos site. I am going out to west coast for a while. I will try to make a few trips to Gunsite or another good school while on the west coast.

[NightFighter]

Hey, with my limited excercise knowledge, I've been taught that for connective tissue, you need 30-50 reps to truly benefit them. Weight should be appropriate to work them vs. the muscle group around it.

I don't know what kind of program you do, but be careful not to overwork to where you are either injuring or on the verge of it. Soreness from workouts are actually injuries sustained to the tissue. Adequate rest and recovery is important. When I powerlifted, I could tell by week 3-4 in a program(8-9 week ones worked best for me) if I was overworking.

To avoid potential long term, I would see a good doctor to insure you aren't making it permanent. I was told by a Chiropractor that there are two types of injuries, the ones you know of right away and the ones you get when you're 60-from the stuff you did years ago.

Hope that helps

Mark
I will definitely be checking in with my doctor while I am getting this problem under control. I am in the health care field and have access to physical therapist and doctors and I will definitely take advantage of their knowledge once I go back to work.

[Joe R.]

If you are having pain across the elbow doing the straight arm wrist curls use a lighter weight...or none at all for the time being. Don't forget to stretch the forearms and wrists. The stretches are a bit tougher to explain via a written description (at least for my limited skills).

[Impact]

you need rest.
I have tennis elbow from boxing and it comes on and off depending how hard I train.
acupuncture and deep muscles massages seem to work for me.
usually it's because your muscles around your elbow are too tense so I try to relax them

[blackscot]

All of the above sounds like good stuff, and I'm sure very much worth checking out, but.......

I don't know your age, but I do know that you are getting older at the same rate we all are. At the risk of diverging philosophically, things wear out, including us.

Shooting -- along with an occupation and other personal interests that involve exposure to outdoor elements and use of various weight equipment -- have left me with a few decades of some definite mileage (I'll spare you the list of pinched this and torn that). I'm not complaining. It has been/still is a hellavu life, and I wouldn't trade places with anyone. But there is a cost to everything that it's best to be realistic about.

My shooting, work, and other activities have adjusted over time. Sure, there are some things I miss and would rather not give up, but likewise plenty of latitude can usually be found to still accomplish a lot and have fun doing it. As far as shooting, I now generally use smaller caliber, lighterweight guns, and otherwise have resolved to just accept that I can see the targets with only about a third of the acuity I once could. Sacrifices in other areas have also been made, including getting more regular daily excersize (yes, the boring kind that's good for you) and even better regulating my diet (gas can get very, very tedious......:rolleyes: ).

So, sorry again if taking too different an angle on this issue, and by all means do check out the many good steers given above. I'm just suggesting that we might all try to regard problems related to our "shooting mileage" more in the broader life context.

[markm]

You're shooting too much. Stop at around a hundred rounds, and save some ammo for the rest of us. :p

[toddackerman]

It's likely 'tennis elbow', I developed in last fall after a major 3gun match in Harvard, MA. The remedy for me is to stretch my wrists well before shooting and many times during the day. Also shooting a lighter gun has made a HUGE difference. That way I don't have to muscle the gun as much. I only have it in my left elbow (I'm right handed). I also occasionally use one of the gyro hand excercisers you can get at REI. This is why I stopped shooting my heavy Limited gun as much and shoot more Production w/Glocks or M&Ps. I also and using a different form/stance and it's helped me a lot. I use a version that D.R. Middlebrooks teaches called 'reverse Weaver' with a 'roll over wrist lock' which takes some of the stress off the support hand elbow and helps you control the gun with less effort.

I have experienced the same as gotM4 over the years, and it doesn't get better with age. It is aggravated by "Torquing" the tendon in your arm in a certain way (different for everyone), and the heavier guns of course require more torque to muscle them.

The pain comes from swelling. Period. Ice, and anti-inflammatory meds work wonders, but if you are really hurting, you need to lay of for a couple of weeks to let ALL of the swelling subside. The real PITA, is that once you develop a tendency for this type of condition in a specific tendon, it will always be vulnerable to re injury. Stretching helps, but I have found that there are certain little movements under load that I avoid as much as possible. I,e, the way you hoist your rifle, move it in and out of the "Work Space" etc.

Damn...come to think of it, it's starting to ache as I type this!

[blackscot]

......Damn...come to think of it, it's starting to ache as I type this!

Prolonged computer time definately does not help.

[HolyRoller]

Hey, with my limited excercise knowledge, I've been taught that for connective tissue, you need 30-50 reps to truly benefit them. Weight should be appropriate to work them vs. the muscle group around it.

30-50 reps?!? Says WHO?!? According to my own results for over 3 years now, and even according to people who know what they're doing, the principles for safe and effective weight training are: do it RIGHT (good form), do it SLOW (muscles, not momentum, moving the weight), and do it to FAILURE (no longer able to do it right). As you get stronger, you cause failure by adding more weight, not more reps. 8-12 reps is the target for failure. More than 15 reps, and you're violating the third principle and almost certainly the second. If it's an exercise that doesn't need extra weight but is still meant for strength building, such as pushups or crunches, then you may do a lot more reps, but you still do them slow and right.

In the gym, I see people all the time slinging around tiny dumbbells like candy, their joints going from lock to lock, and they wonder why they never get any stronger but their joints are hurting. It's because they aren't making their muscles fail and therefore grow back stronger, just going too fast and injuring their joints.

About locking the elbow, I shoot bullseye, where you need to lock the elbow, and when I first started I got a very sore elbow for a few days, but it went away on its own (the soreness, not the elbow). Now that I weight-train regularly, I don't hurt at all. I'm no instructor, but the way I've always seen the Weaver demonstrated, neither arm is locked--the support arm is sharply bent and the firing arm is slightly bent. I believe the Chapman stance is where you lock the firing elbow and have the support hand pull the firing arm back like a rifle stock, but so far the Weaver does everything I need it to do so I'm not proficient with the Chapman.

[zrider]

I had the same issue last year. Went to an Ortho Dr and he perscribed meds used at the same time as PT. The PT clinic knows exactly what exercises to do and when. Some exercises recommeded online aren't always the best ones for your particular problems and is sometimes best to work up to the correct ones for you. Get an experts advise and follow it.
Z

[blackscot]

30-50 reps?!?........As you get stronger, you cause failure by adding more weight, not more reps. 8-12 reps is the target for failure........

In the gym, I see people all the time slinging around tiny dumbbells like candy, their joints going from lock to lock, and they wonder why they never get any stronger but their joints are hurting. It's because they aren't making their muscles fail and therefore grow back stronger, just going too fast and injuring their joints.......

That's very interesting. Since last year I have been trying to do more to maintain condition. I'm not trying to "build" anything, just keep what I've got from falling apart really. With now more than a few years under the belt, I'd just like to walk around comfortably and not feel run-down all the time.

At home using just a small bar and a floor pad, it's taken some experimentation to see what effect various approaches have. At first I was doing slow, low-rep presses and curls along with to-failure ab crunches, and was pleased with getting fairly immediate results. Then a couple of months ago I shifted gears a bit and started a faster-paced routine based around a larger number of reps. As a result though, I have not gained any additional strength and I think maybe even lost some. Especially important, I am now experiencing strain in my joints, tendons, and even my back (!!! :eek: ), that was not happening under the prior regimen.

Starting this week, I'm going back to the slow, to-failure program in the hopes of clearing up the inflammation that the high-rep routine appears to have created.

[DRM]

Here's a pic of an LEO using this technique shooting a Glock 21.

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/images/glock.jpg

Notice the empty case exiting the Glock 21 .45...

It's just leaving and the gun is in FULL RECOIL.:eek:

And here's a testimonial from that 'Manly Man' in the photo above... ;)


“I have trained with some top name instructors who advocate the Weaver and Modified Isosceles stances. But because I suffer with tendinitis, I found it difficult and painful to shoot using those other methods…

However, after two full days of training in the FIST-FIRE System, and firing over 1,000 rounds of full power .45, I had absolutely no joint or tendon pain whatsoever. I also learned how to shoot better, faster, how to coach myself and how to practice the right way.

The system also integrated well with the Mixed Martial Arts we teach at our gym. I am convinced that FIST-FIRE is the very best, most complete system of handgun shooting available today.”

Officer Paul Sharp, Illinois
Mixed Martial Arts Instructor
Straight Blast Gym of Illinois
www.ISRMatrix.org

Seriously, I suffered for years with tendinitis and lime disease until I finally figured out a better way to control a handgun. Been doing fine ever since, and so have my students.

Cheers, :cool:

D.R. Middlebrooks
Tactical Shooting Academy
www.TacticalShooting.com