View Full Version : Shooting steel through high quality rifles
Reagans Rascals
02-17-12, 08:51
Would it be considered ok to fire steel cased ammo such as Tula, Brown Bear or Wolf through a top quality rifle such as KAC, BCM, DD, Noveske and Colt?
I've seen some pretty good deals on steel ammo and have thought about picking up a few thousand rounds just to keep around for plinking and range use.
I would think if its a high quality rifle, things should be fine, but I might not have all of the facts.
I know the steel case does not expand the same as brass and will sometimes leave a lacquer in the chamber, which could cause problems with brass extraction if not removed. However if you clean the weapon thoroughly before using brass things should be fine correct?
I don't see any reason why not, It'd be good to know that your rifle will use steel cased stuff, In the proverbial "SHTF" situation, you need to know it'll work with whatever you can find.. :D
Failure2Stop
02-17-12, 09:41
I've had no issues with it.
ForTehNguyen
02-17-12, 09:41
I do it all the time through my DD, BCM uppers. Shoot steel through my ACR fine as well. It would not be a confidence booster for me if I had a rifle that only eats the more expensive stuff. If I can shoot the lower quality stuff fine then it will shoot the better stuff fine as well.
When I take friends out to the range they shoot the cheaper steel stuff, they arent going to shoot my more expensive brass.
I used to shoot it a lot until I got my two current BCM uppers. They do NOT like steel ammo. I would not normally have an issue with it, but I'm forced into brass cased.
That's ok, though. I'd rather have a high-quality rifle that shoots only expensive ammo than a lower-quality rifle that shoots steel and brass.
I'm an RSO with the Quantico Shooting Club aboard Marine Corps Base, Quantico. It never ceases to amaze me how people will spend big bucks on a rifle and then feed it shit ammo. :eek:
I understand, because, I've found Wolf and BB to be both accurate and much cheaper. about $100 a case cheaper - and it doesn't affect the gun. That is why we do it.
I'm an RSO with the Quantico Shooting Club aboard Marine Corps Base, Quantico. It never ceases to amaze me how people will spend big bucks on a rifle and then feed it shit ammo. :eek:
Would you say it's better to shoot less with better ammo?
Seriously, feeding a gun with enough ammo to become proficient isn't cheap. If all they're doing is shooting dirt clods on the weekends, and you want your gun to last 4 lifetimes, sure buy the good stuff, but if you're sending 3-4k rounds down range per year, the 0.20 cent differential can replace anything that goes wrong by shooting steel cased ammo. (not that I've seen any ill effects over the years) The plus side is, you actually can afford to shoot the rifle rather than worry about how expensive it is to do so.
Nowadays, I can afford to buy IMI when it's available, but back in the days of pinching pennies, I shot a metric shit ton of steel cased ammo thru all sorts of guns. It kept me shooting so I didn't lose any skill thru lack of use.
Guns have and always will contain "consumable" parts. We all know the basic ones... magazines, springs, etc. but barrels and uppers fall into that category as well, just on a longer time frame.
I'd rather someone shoot what they've got with steel cased ammo than let it sit in the safe because their wallet cries every time they shoot it.
I understand, because, I've found Wolf and BB to be both accurate and much cheaper. about $100 a case cheaper - and it doesn't affect the gun. That is why we do it.
If it's reliable in your rifle and you're happy with it, then do what ya gotta do.
OTOH, I routinely see people have problems with it when I open a range and I wind up supervising someone clearing his malfunctions instead of keeping an eye on everyone else like I should be doing, so I won't waste my money on it. Federal sells Lake City M855 for a good price at Brownells and trouble-free ammo at that price is a bargain in my eyes. :)
I wouldn't own a rifle that was a picky eater. All of my rifles must eat steel ammo as well as brass to keep a spot in my safe.
Would you say it's better to shoot less with better ammo?
Seriously, feeding a gun with enough ammo to become proficient isn't cheap. If all they're doing is shooting dirt clods on the weekends, and you want your gun to last 4 lifetimes, sure buy the good stuff, but if you're sending 3-4k rounds down range per year, the 0.20 cent differential can replace anything that goes wrong by shooting steel cased ammo. (not that I've seen any ill effects over the years) The plus side is, you actually can afford to shoot the rifle rather than worry about how expensive it is to do so.
Nowadays, I can afford to buy IMI when it's available, but back in the days of pinching pennies, I shot a metric shit ton of steel cased ammo thru all sorts of guns. It kept me shooting so I didn't lose any skill thru lack of use.
Guns have and always will contain "consumable" parts. We all know the basic ones... magazines, springs, etc. but barrels and uppers fall into that category as well, just on a longer time frame.
I'd rather someone shoot what they've got with steel cased ammo than let it sit in the safe because their wallet cries every time they shoot it.
This EBR hobby is not for penny-pinchers. Also, we're shooting one of the cheapest rifle rounds in existence fer cryin' out loud. If you want to save money, buy a nice Ruger 10-22 and shoot Mini-Mags. I spend an inordinate amount of time supervising shooters clearing jams and ignoring God only knows what else because the shooter wanted to be a cheap-skate.
This EBR hobby is not for penny-pinchers. Also, we're shooting one of the cheapest rifle rounds in existence fer cryin' out loud. If you want to save money, buy a nice Ruger 10-22 and shoot Mini-Mags. I spend an inordinate amount of time supervising shooters clearing jams and ignoring God only knows what else because the shooter wanted to be a cheap-skate.
I run steel case just fine in all of my guns (Noveske, DD). Just because the people you supervise might not have a handle on things and need your help does not mean everyone does. This past summer while I was shooting Wolf for 4 days I observed more malfunctions with XM193 (5-6 from other students) than I had with steel case ammo. My gun was also 3,000 rounds deep without cleaning. This has actually been a trend in most of the classes I have taken.
This EBR hobby is not for penny-pinchers. Also, we're shooting one of the cheapest rifle rounds in existence fer cryin' out loud. If you want to save money, buy a nice Ruger 10-22 and shoot Mini-Mags. I spend an inordinate amount of time supervising shooters clearing jams and ignoring God only knows what else because the shooter wanted to be a cheap-skate.
I realize it's not a cheap mans game, but when I first got into the game, I had money I didn't know what to spend it on. Things changed as things do. Changed jobs, moved, money got tight. Shooting steel cased ammo allowed me to continue to do so until things turned around.
As far as spending time clearing jams... I'd venture to guess that they didn't spend "big bucks" on a rifle if they are experiencing jams. My Noveske's eat anything I throw at them, even steel cased ammo with nary a jam. I also think there's a vast difference between ammo you train with and ammo you keep for "unfortunate loud noise" incidents. I keep high quality ammo in the gun when it's on standby.
I much prefer to use higher quality ammo, but sometimes it just ain't available. Look at the whole IMI ammo thread here about them running out and may not be able to get more. I'm not going to let that stop me from shooting. If it becomes necessary, I'll shoot steel cased ammo again because for the most part, I can buy it anytime with very little wait.
Either way, if you got the money, shoot what you want, if you don't, realize that guns are a collection of consumable parts and steel cased ammo for training won't be the end of anyone, but not training (enough) because they hear it's bad could very well be the end of someone.
2 years ago my very first AR was a DD. I just bought it cause I wanted an AR and this one was used at $900 never knew they were considered top quality ARs. All ARs were the same to me. Anyways, I shot nothing but wolf through it in the short time I owned it and never had a problem. Only had the rifle for that one summer. Ended up selling it to fund my AK sbr.
Now I have a Colt but havent had a chance to shoot her yet
I can see saving money or shooting more rounds for the same money, but the differential does not seem to be enough for me to try it out. I shoot a lot of 45ACP and 9mm as well. If I could get twice the ammo for my money I would give it a try.. Ron
Lake City ammo doesn't cost much more and in 36 years of shooting it, I've never once had a problem with it. Remember, aside from .22LR, 5.56 is the cheapest rifle ammo I know of, and in the end, you get what you pay for.
If you're on my range and you start having malfunctions due to cheap ammo, you'll be asked to leave. However, as I said before, if it works in your gun and you like the results, then go for it.
Lake City ammo doesn't cost much more and in 36 years of shooting it, I've never once had a problem with it. Remember, aside from .22LR, 5.56 is the cheapest rifle ammo I know of, and in the end, you get what you pay for.
If you're on my range and you start having malfunctions due to cheap ammo, you'll be asked to leave. However, as I said before, if it works in your gun and you like the results, then go for it.
$260 shipped vs $190 shipped per case... Not sure what "much more" is to you but saving 27% is a pretty good deal to me.
Why would someone who has malfunctions be forced to leave your range if they clear them in a safe manner?
Cincinnatus
02-17-12, 12:05
[QUOTE=Locutus;1233205]Remember, aside from .22LR, 5.56 is the cheapest rifle ammo I know of,QUOTE]
Really?
$260 shipped vs $190 shipped per case... Not sure what "much more" is to you but saving 27% is a pretty good deal to me.
I pay $149 per can with 420 rounds already on stripper clips. That's $0.35/round. I have no doubt you can buy cheaper ammo, but compared to what 7.62 guys are paying, it's a pittance.
Why would someone who has malfunctions be forced to leave your range if they clear them in a safe manner?
Because if I am repeatedly forced to supervise the same shooter and ignore all of the other shooters, it is a safety issue.
Aren't you the guy that hasn't cleaned his rifle in over 3000 rounds? I'll have to keep my eye out for you. ;)
Because if I am repeatedly forced to supervise the same shooter and ignore all of the other shooters, it is a safety issue.
Aren't you the guy that hasn't cleaned his rifle in over 3000 rounds? I'll have to keep my eye out for you. ;)
He's also the guy who runs good rifles like Noveske. I think mine was well over 5k the last time I cleaned it and it ran just fine. :D
SpaceWrangler
02-17-12, 12:18
Confessions of an unrepentant brass scavenger...
I keep a case of Tula around in case I get invited by friends to shoot at his quarry or someplace else I don't want to be bothered with rooting around for my brass.
Otherwise I use brass cased.
He's also the guy who runs good rifles like Noveske. I think mine was well over 5k the last time I cleaned it and it ran just fine. :D
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Plain and simple, it's abuse. If you keep getting away with it, fine. OTOH, I hope you're never in a bad situation when your rifle finally decides it had all the abuse it can take.
Apricotshot
02-17-12, 12:24
This EBR hobby is not for penny-pinchers. Also, we're shooting one of the cheapest rifle rounds in existence fer cryin' out loud. If you want to save money, buy a nice Ruger 10-22 and shoot Mini-Mags. I spend an inordinate amount of time supervising shooters clearing jams and ignoring God only knows what else because the shooter wanted to be a cheap-skate.
I'd be interested in knowing the make of the rifles that are having all these failures. Most guns that I've seen not run steel cased ammo are usually the lower tier rifles with improper chamber dimentions like DPMS, Bushmaster and CMMG.
I'd be interested in knowing the make of the rifles that are having all these failures. Most guns that I've seen not run steel cased ammo are usually the lower tier rifles with improper chamber dimentions like DPMS, Bushmaster and CMMG.
I've never made a study of that, but it's definitely a good idea. :p
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Plain and simple, it's abuse. If you keep getting away with it, fine. OTOH, I hope you're never in a bad situation when your rifle finally decides it had all the abuse it can take.
Rifles. Plural. Set up the same, tested for functionality, one for training, one for bad situations. Said I had more than one earlier.
Again, I think you keep skipping over the point a bit. Rifles aren't meant to last forever. Hence "maintenance". What is steel cased ammo going to abuse in a rifle? If the chamber is so soft that soft steel will damage it, there's more to the problem than long term abuse. Extractors being abused? Change 'em. They're not expensive and should be changed on a regular basis anyways. Springs being overworked? Change 'em when you start having issues. I can honestly say I've never had a rifle "break" on me because I maintain it. Again... consumable parts!
I'm happy for you that you can afford to shoot higher quality ammo, guess what... so can I and I do... now. The only reason I'm even continuing on with this discussion is because it's an open forum. What you are saying may discourage people from shooting as much as they want because they can't afford high end ammo and that is far more dangerous than my training rifle breaking a spring/extractor. Keep in mind that some people reading this may not understand the difference and that's why I talked about maintenance and consumable parts.
I'm no expert, but I've listened to many experts on this site and have come to realize even more so that my rifles aren't heirlooms, they are tools for training with. Oh, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :D
jonconsiglio
02-17-12, 12:49
Because if I am repeatedly forced to supervise the same shooter and ignore all of the other shooters, it is a safety issue.
Aren't you the guy that hasn't cleaned his rifle in over 3000 rounds? I'll have to keep my eye out for you. ;)
So, at the range you work at, you have to supervise someone that has a malfunction? I would not come back to a range where I had to be supervised. I did that once at an indoor range in San Antonio and I'll never go back. Their ammo only and at high prices, they carry your weapons to the range, no drawing, etc. At least locally, I've found the guys the work on the range would be no different that being a English professor and having a high school student check your grammar.
Nothing against you, just the range rules. Then again, I have seen some idiots at the range that have shot the ceiling.
As for steel case, if it runs reliably, run the hell out of it. If not, ditch it. I only run brass now, but not because of issues with steel cased ammo. I now their can be issues with the coatings and from what I understand, you're more likely to experience stuck cases, but I don't have enough bad experiences with steel cased ammo to say for sure.
I used to shoot it a lot until I got my two current BCM uppers. They do NOT like steel ammo. I would not normally have an issue with it, but I'm forced into brass cased.
That's ok, though. I'd rather have a high-quality rifle that shoots only expensive ammo than a lower-quality rifle that shoots steel and brass.
Im interested to know the rest of the details on your guns. I have / had many BCM rifles, and none of them had an issue with steel, mostly Brown Bear. If I did ever have malfunction, it had nothing to do with the upper for sure... just curious, maybe we can help you troubleshoot so you can bang more.
Again, I think you keep skipping over the point a bit. Rifles aren't meant to last forever. Hence "maintenance". What is steel cased ammo going to abuse in a rifle? If the chamber is so soft that soft steel will damage it, there's more to the problem than long term abuse. Extractors being abused? Change 'em. They're not expensive and should be changed on a regular basis anyways. Springs being overworked? Change 'em when you start having issues. I can honestly say I've never had a rifle "break" on me because I maintain it. Again... consumable parts!
I never said that cheap steel ammo is abuse, only that it has in my experience caused enough weapons to jam on the firing line that it's a distraction for me as the RSO. If it does damage the weapon, then I have no sympathy, but I also don't care as long as it's not a safety issue for my other shooters.
What I do say is abuse is not cleaning a weapon on a regular basis. It's preventative maintenance that if done with proper frequency, it will eliminate or at least reduce much more costly maintenance down the road. It might even save a life if we're talking about a duty weapon.
I'm no expert, but I've listened to many experts on this site and have come to realize even more so that my rifles aren't heirlooms, they are tools for training with. Oh, and I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :D
Damn! I KNEW I shoulda stayed there! :D
coyote hunter
02-17-12, 13:06
So, at the range you work at, you have to supervise someone that has a malfunction? I would not come back to a range where I had to be supervised. I did that once at an indoor range in San Antonio and I'll never go back. Their ammo only and at high prices, they carry your weapons to the range, no drawing, etc. At least locally, I've found the guys the work on the range would be no different that being a English professor and having a high school student check your grammar.
Nothing against you, just the range rules.
As for steel case, if it runs reliably, run the hell out of it. If not, ditch it. I only run brass now, but not because of issues with steel cased ammo.
I work at a different range, But have observed many FTextracts in ARs. Every single one that I can remember involved steel case ammo, and usually a sub par gun.
At the range I work at, we have 2 range officers on the 100yd range, where most of the AR shooters spend their time. Often times the shooter will request assistance from the R.O. in clearing the malfunction. So I, or the other R.O. will help the shooter, and the remaining R.O. will continue to supervise the line. Keep in mind I do work at a public range, where the "average" AR shooter there is much different from the members of this forum.
A R.O. supervising someone with a malfunction is unfortunately much to common, mainly because the shooter with the malfunction throws away all proper safety practices and starts swinging the rifle around :suicide: Yea, we know it doesn't work, that's no reason to wave it around like the flag girls at halftime
More to the point, I don't run steel in my rifle. Because of the known negatives and increased possibility of a failure of some sort. But if you know your rifle eats it like candy, more power to ya!
So, at the range you work at, you have to supervise someone that has a malfunction?
It depends on the shooter. Since I retired from the Marine Corps, I occasionally open a range at Marine Corps Base, Quantico for recreational shooters. In exchange for getting certified as an RSO and opening ranges a few times a year, my membership is free. We have a mix of Marines and civilian members and some are more experienced than others. Shooters I see regularly, I typically feel little need to supervise; likewise, civilians that I've never seen, or in the unfortunate case of a couple that I HAVE seen, I feel a greater need to keep an eye on.
The rules on a military range are generally more strict than civilian ranges and while the Marines using the ranges during the week may bend or break the rules and get away with it, those of us using the ranges for rec-fire don't dare try to bend them. It can be a pain, but there aren't many 600 and 1000 yard ranges around this part of Virginia and there's only 5 Olympic Trap ranges in the entire country and we have all of the above.
:D
Keep in mind I do work at a public range, where the "average" AR shooter there is much different from the members of this forum.
A R.O. supervising someone with a malfunction is unfortunately much to common, mainly because the shooter with the malfunction throws away all proper safety practices and starts swinging the rifle around :suicide: Yea, we know it doesn't work, that's no reason to wave it around like the flag girls at halftime
Amen, brother.
:suicide2:
p22shooter30
02-17-12, 13:33
I shoot the wolf ammo all the time and never have any trouble, but with federal coming down in price with the wars winding down im starting to shoot up the rest of my wolf and starting to buy the federal. i do get better groups out of the wolf than american eagle 223 though. i do get sick of everytime im at the range (which is unsupervised) some idiot walks over and asks if i have a cleaning rod because he cant get the casing out of his rifle. i always say no and never bother to ask if he cleans or maintains his gun. maybe since he doesnt own a cleaning rod that answers my question. im guessing it has more to do with the dude shooting than the ammo he is shooting out of it.
No problems here with steel, Colt 6920 upper.
Cheapest ammo next to .22 is probably surplus 5.45. about $135 or $150 for 1080 rounds delivered.
The only time I have had a FTE was after shooting steel ammo and then going to brass. I have a DDM4 V3. I think the problem was that the steel case does not expand and the residue gets back by the mouth of the case, and then when I switched to brass, the case expanded and got stuck. If someone has more insight to what happened, let me know what I could do to fix the problem.
SpaceWrangler
02-17-12, 14:04
The only time I have had a FTE was after shooting steel ammo and then going to brass. I have a DDM4 V3. I think the problem was that the steel case does not expand and the residue gets back by the mouth of the case, and then when I switched to brass, the case expanded and got stuck. If someone has more insight to what happened, let me know what I could do to fix the problem.
That's a pretty well-known problem.
The solution is to clean the chamber really well before switching back to brass-case ammo.
Im interested to know the rest of the details on your guns. I have / had many BCM rifles, and none of them had an issue with steel, mostly Brown Bear. If I did ever have malfunction, it had nothing to do with the upper for sure... just curious, maybe we can help you troubleshoot so you can bang more.
One is a 16" bcm midlength on a KAC IWS lower, H2 buffer. The other is an 11.5" bcm with an A5 stock/buffer on a DPMS sbr lower. They both have issues with stuck cases when shooting steel ammo, but are both 100% with brass. I would have assumed I had a tight chamber, but these are two diff. uppers purchased over a year apart. Both were purchased as complete uppers.
I've put at least two cases of russian stuff through my LMT and she's never hiccuped. If I am abusing her I think it's safe to say she's into that sort of thing ;)
p22shooter30
02-17-12, 14:28
I've put at least two cases of russian stuff through my LMT and she's never hiccuped. If I am abusing her I think it's safe to say she's into that sort of thing ;)
love it
$260 shipped vs $190 shipped per case... Not sure what "much more" is to you but saving 27% is a pretty good deal to me.
Amen...
I'd rather shoot more cheap ammo than less "good" ammo. Would I feed Wolfe to my Noveske SS bbl'ed SPR? No, but volume fire is not that weapon's main objective. I plan on getting a LaRue PredatAR this summer and also plan on running Wolfe through it most of the time.
Guys,
Why do you feel the need to justify YOUR choice of ammo in YOUR gun to this Locutus guy?
The OP asked if you do, not why you should or should not.
On a personal note, I have a BM rifle which is viewed by M4C'ers as a sub-par gun and I have ran thousands of Wolfe rounds through it without regular cleanings or a single hick-up. So if my crap rifle can chew through that stuff w/o a problem, what the hell kind of rifles are people shooting at the range where Locutus is seeing non stop issued with stl. cased ammo?
Guys,
Why do you feel the need to justify YOUR choice of ammo in YOUR gun to this Locutus guy?
Wasn't trying to justify MY reasons, just trying to counter the blanket statement that steel cased ammo is bayyud, mmmkay.
I said it a couple of times, it's better to shoot more. If steel case ammo helps people afford to do it. Awesome!
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 14:50
I run both with no issues. Im gonna order some Hornady steel case and give it a try, it should be a decent alternative to import steel.
This issue comes up every 2 or 3 months, wonder why this thread hasnt closed yet?
jonconsiglio
02-17-12, 15:02
…snip
…snip
Gotcha, thanks guys. The only public ranges I ever frequent are very relaxed, but we seem to be fortunate with the time of people that attend. I use one of the bays mostly at the outdoor range and the indoor range is separated by solid partitions so you don't notice much of what's going on. It's also usually empty except for a couple shooters, typically hunters. We can work on our draw, a small bit of movement, etc. I also shoot on private land quite a bit which is obviously preferred.
Things were much different at the ranges in San Antonio. Horrible places and I won't go back.
As for steel case, I don't mind it, but what I didn't mention in my last post is that I typically don't use it at classes or for anything other than some basic drills. I've had good luck with Hornady steel case though I've only used it a couple times.
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Plain and simple, it's abuse. If you keep getting away with it, fine. OTOH, I hope you're never in a bad situation when your rifle finally decides it had all the abuse it can take.
Not sure if you have a handle on everything so I will just let you be.
I shoot countless rounds of Brown Bear through my stainless Nordic-Lilja barrel all the time when 3 gunning locally. The barrel actually seems to really like them; not really any appreciable difference shooting that or Federal AE under competition conditions. I don't have any trouble banging 8 inch gongs at 220 yards with them. Of course, match ammo is much more accurate but you'll not hurt anything by shooting the cheap stuff.
Suwannee Tim
02-17-12, 15:28
It's just a barrel Mr. Rascals. When it is worn out you take it off, chuck it in the worn out barrel barrel and put a new one on.
Suwannee Tim
02-17-12, 15:54
....I have seen some idiots at the range that have shot the ceiling.....
I saw one today trying to clear a malfunction from a 22 rifle with the muzzle pointed at me and gouging at the rim of the cartridge with a screwdriver.:fie:
Not sure if you have a handle on everything so I will just let you be.
Ah, the Great Gazoo will tolerate the Dum-Dums, eh? Spare me.
Ah, the Great Gazoo will tolerate the Dum-Dums, eh? Spare me.
Actually not that at all. I just don't believe you understand fully what you are saying.
Littlelebowski
02-17-12, 16:40
I'm an RSO with the Quantico Shooting Club aboard Marine Corps Base, Quantico. It never ceases to amaze me how people will spend big bucks on a rifle and then feed it shit ammo. :eek:
Because you have data showing said ammo hurts the rifles?
Suwannee Tim
02-17-12, 17:13
I don't have much experience with steel cases but I have a lot and then some experience with brass ammo. Excepting careless or idiotic reloading it is an extreme rarity for ammo to hurt a gun. Ammo is not like gasoline. You have a high performance car and put cheap gas in it you may damage it, maybe severely. Not so with ammo. Given the amplifying effect of the internet I am sure that if Tula, Wolf, et al ammo was harmful you would hear about over and over and over ad nauseum.
Actually not that at all. I just don't believe you understand fully what you are saying.
Please clue me in then. I realize that there's a huge snob factor involved with bragging about how many thousands of rounds one has put through his Noveske or DD without cleaning it, but please tell me how many times you've carried a weapon that dirty in harm's way.
If you would carry such a dirty weapon in harm's way, I suppose there's no point in continuing, but if you wouldn't, then why would you let it go so long without cleaning? Even if it's only a range gun, do you not believe that the carbon buildup will add to the overall wear and tear?
I have a BCM BFH and it's no slouch in quality, but I wouldn't dream of letting it go so long without cleaning. I have a POF P-415 that I clean regularly regardless of POF's claims. I carried an M16-A1 for ten years and an M16-A2 that I carried for another ten and even if the Marine Corps had allowed me to let it go, I would not have. Can you tell me, aside from piston gun maker's hype, which firearms makers recommend that you let preventative maintenance go? Which PD's recommend their officers let preventative maintenance go? Which military force in the world recommends their people preventative maintenance go?
Because you have data showing said ammo hurts the rifles?
Please reread - I never said cheap ammo hurts the rifle. Even if it does, I couldn't care less if the shooter damages his rifle unless it in some way endangers the other shooters. What is a problem is when my attention repeatedly drawn away from the operation of the range.
Locutus,
I know this may not be the answer you want to hear, but some of us shoot.... A LOT!
1k rounds 2k rounds... that might be a long weekend at a training class.
You get into the 5 day classes and the rounds add up. Sure, you could run back to the hotel room and clean the gun, but given there were no outward signs of it even slowing down, I'd rather go grab some good food, have a good conversation with fellow classmates, and get to bed early so you can be your best at the class that you paid for. Most times, you just drop a bit more lube in the gun and shoot shoot shoot your merry way to the end of the day!
My training gun gets dirty. When I have time, between two jobs, a wife and helping my aging parents.... I'll clean it. It's not neglect, or as you call it abuse, it's reality. If I had all day after some sort of 9-5 job, they'd all be cleaned on the daily, but I don't and I'd guess others here don't either. My defensive gun remains cleaned at all times. When it gets shot, it gets cleaned. Plain and simple.
It's not rocket surgery and it's definitely not snobbery... it's just that having put as many rounds thru MY gun as I have, I can tell when she's in need of a cleaning.
(does it make me a snob that I call it a "she"?)
Locutus,
I know this may not be the answer you want to hear, but some of us shoot.... A LOT!
1k rounds 2k rounds... that might be a long weekend at a training class.
You get into the 5 day classes and the rounds add up. Sure, you could run back to the hotel room and clean the gun, but given there were no outward signs of it even slowing down, I'd rather go grab some good food, have a good conversation with fellow classmates, and get to bed early so you can be your best at the class that you paid for. Most times, you just drop a bit more lube in the gun and shoot shoot shoot your merry way to the end of the day!
My training gun gets dirty. When I have time, between two jobs, a wife and helping my aging parents.... I'll clean it. It's not neglect, or as you call it abuse, it's reality. If I had all day after some sort of 9-5 job, they'd all be cleaned on the daily, but I don't and I'd guess others here don't either. My defensive gun remains cleaned at all times. When it gets shot, it gets cleaned. Plain and simple.
It's not rocket surgery and it's definitely not snobbery... it's just that having put as many rounds thru MY gun as I have, I can tell when she's in need of a cleaning.
(does it make me a snob that I call it a "she"?)
Last July for me was 5,000 rounds of Wolf out of one gun.
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 18:12
Last July for me was 5,000 rounds of Wolf out of one gun.
I dont have an exact number, but I bet ive done that much wolf in a month also. Maybe a little less, but not by much. I prefer brass 5.56 though.
I dont have an exact number, but I bet ive done that much wolf in a month also. Maybe a little less, but not by much. I prefer brass 5.56 though.
Ahhh, there it is. Preference is one thing, but to say something is bad or damages the gun without any other proof other than something you saw on some strangers gun at some range as an RSO? We are better than that.
My personal preference is to avoid steel and stick with brass.
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 18:20
Your right orion. In all honesty, the vast majority of malf's ive had, or seen, have been from worn extractors/springs, or mag related. Of the ammo related, handloads or old surplus has been the culprit.
SpookyPistolero
02-17-12, 18:20
Please clue me in then. I realize that there's a huge snob factor involved with bragging about how many thousands of rounds one has put through his Noveske or DD without cleaning it,
So folks here are snobs for not anally cleaning their rifles after every 500 rounds, but you're not a snob for kicking people off "your range" if they have a malfunction that you presume to be related to ammo?
but please tell me how many times you've carried a weapon that dirty in harm's way.
The weapons in point were training weapons.
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 18:21
My personal preference is to avoid steel and stick with brass.
Mine too, but ill shoot anything if its there.
I bought 1k of Wolf a few years ago when ammo was getting expensive and hard to find. Shot it all with no problem in my Noveske and BCM rifles. Not a single issue.
Only issue I have ever seen was steel cases getting stuck in tight chambers of other rifles (Bushmaster and Double Star to be specific).
GeorgiaBoy
02-17-12, 18:25
About a year ago I was anti-steel in AR's. Not that I thought that it hurts them, but because I had a bad experience with a lot of Wolf Classic.
About 6 months ago I picked up some new Wolf WPA and it shoots fine. I've put probably 2500+ rounds through both my DDM4 and BCM 14.5 with no issues. Its not the best stuff, but it does the job.
Bascially I see the biggest pro with steel is that its cheap. I could spend $150-$170 on 500 rounds of Fed AE or PMC Xtac, or spend $100 for 500 rounds of Wolf WPA. Sure, you lose some accuracy, which is why I only use steel in close range (under 50 yards) training. Anything over that I use more accurate ammo.
The downside is, your gun will get dirtier faster. I generally clean mine every 500 rounds with steel. I try to clean or at least scrub the chamger of the HD gun everytime I shoot Wolf through it. (Its a bad idea to mix up steel and brass, brass can get stuck).
Ahhh, there it is. Preference is one thing, but to say something is bad or damages the gun without any other proof other than something you saw on some strangers gun at some range as an RSO? We are better than that.
I did NOT say it damages the gun, but reading what I actually said as opposed to what you want to hear does take effort. I asked you very pointed questions, but I think it's safe to assume from your response that you've never had to rely on your weapon for anything more than a day at the range. Your such an impressive guy; why would I dare have an opinion different than yours?
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 19:09
I did NOT say it damages the gun, but reading what I actually said as opposed to what you want to hear does take effort. I asked you very pointed questions, but I think it's safe to assume from your response that you've never had to rely on your weapon for anything more than a day at the range. Your such an impressive guy; why would I dare have an opinion different than yours?
Hey friend. Im not ashamed that ive never had to use my weapon in combat, or any kind of defensive role. Does you, having used yours, make your opinion more important, or pertinant?
Ive shot a metric ton of rounds in my life. Ive taken a few classes, have trained with some of the best that most have never heard of or seen. I shoot very often. Does that not give any merit to what I have to say?
I agree, true 5.56 brass is the best way to go, by far, but it makes no differance what you use, of you dont put quality time in the rounds you put down range.
Hey friend. Im not ashamed that ive never had to use my weapon in combat, or any kind of defensive role. Does you, having used yours, make your opinion more important, or pertinant?
My comments were not directed at you because you made no condescending comments that I recall.
Ive shot a metric ton of rounds in my life. Ive taken a few classes, have trained with some of the best that most have never heard of or seen. I shoot very often. Does that not give any merit to what I have to say?
I agree, true 5.56 brass is the best way to go, by far, but it makes no differance what you use, of you dont put quality time in the rounds you put down range.
No argument here. :)
I've never shot any. As long as I can afford PPU or IMI M193 I don't intend to. Not that it would damage my weapon, I just feel it is lower quality ammo.
If you use it and it suits your needs, go with it.
I have always heard that Wolf, Tula was alot dirtier than "regular" ammo. I know that shooting suppressed with PPu or IMI M193 my weapon gets much dirtier as to be expected.
What about shooting this type ammo suppressed? Any issues?
polymorpheous
02-17-12, 19:27
It must be the ammo, because parts is parts right?!
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 19:28
My comments were not directed at you because you made no condescending comments that I recall.
No argument here. :)
I appologize then. I thought you were meaning all of us in general. Sorry.
I appologize then. I thought you were meaning all of us in general. Sorry.
No need; if you thought that, then my comments were poorly written and it's my fault.
:)
Clobbersauras
02-17-12, 19:47
So for those that shoot a lot of steel case ammo, what chemical do you do to clean the chamber? Do you notice any lacquer build up?
also do you guys use a different size brush for the chamber? I usually just run a bore snake through it a few times. Is there a better way to clean or is this satisfactory?
bsmith_shoot
02-17-12, 20:33
I use old fashioned Hoppes #9, when I clean. Most the time I just spray with clp, use the chamber brush, then pull the boresnake through a few times. After that I run a patch with clp on it through the bore. Thats it. I lube with synthetic motor oil.
Suwannee Tim
02-17-12, 20:42
So for those that shoot a lot of steel case ammo, what chemical do you do to clean the chamber? Do you notice any lacquer build up?
Automatic transmission fluid and Hoppe's Number Nine. I swab out the excess with a 45 caliber mop and some brake cleaner. 10K rounds of 5.45 and there is no buildup in the chamber. Barrel's shot but that's another story.
jonconsiglio
02-17-12, 20:44
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should. Plain and simple, it's abuse. If you keep getting away with it, fine. OTOH, I hope you're never in a bad situation when your rifle finally decides it had all the abuse it can take.
I think this is where people are getting that you claimed it was bad for your rifle and it could damage it. According to this post of yours, it would be easy to interpret that as saying steel case will damage your rifle.
I know this was in response to cleaning, but at first I assumed it was about the ammo as I skimmed through the posts.
As for carrying a dirty weapon, I have before and I was confident it would work when needed since it had never failed me before at higher round counts and it stays lubed. This is not a regular practice, just something that's happened a couple times. I also used a scumbags .32 to defend myself in a fight/carjacking that was apparently covered in rust. It got the job done, but I would have preferred at least one or two follow up shots as it failed after the first.
Plain and simple, it's abuse.
I did NOT say it damages the gun
See above, sounded like you implied the steel damages the gun. Many have gone down that path before.
And yes, I am a ****ing awesome person, you would be lucky to meet me. :cool::cool:
See above, sounded like you implied the steel damages the gun. Many have gone down that path before.
I thought that the context was clear from the flow of the discussion, but maybe not.
And yes, I am a ****ing awesome person, you would be lucky to meet me. :cool::cool:
Oh, Christ! I give! :)
As for carrying a dirty weapon, I have before and I was confident it would work when needed since it had never failed me before at higher round counts and it stays lubed. This is not a regular practice, just something that's happened a couple times. I also used a scumbags .32 to defend myself in a fight/carjacking that was apparently covered in rust. It got the job done, but I would have preferred at least one or two follow up shots as it failed after the first.
I'm glad you made it through OK.
:D
Automatic transmission fluid and Hoppe's Number Nine. I swab out the excess with a 45 caliber mop and some brake cleaner. 10K rounds of 5.45 and there is no buildup in the chamber. Barrel's shot but that's another story.
I use trans fluid and hopes as well. Trans fluid is also great for cleaning cosmoline off of steel. Just throw your surplus gun in a parts cleaner (minus plastic and wood) or a bucket pour in transmission fluid and run a toothbrush over it
I shoot the brass cases because I have a guy who reloads that will buy the empties from me, so it offsets the little extra cost involved to buy them. When its all said and done I actually pay less for brass than I would steel.
The_War_Wagon
02-17-12, 21:23
Would it be considered ok to fire steel cased ammo such as Tula, Brown Bear or Wolf through a top quality rifle such as KAC, BCM, DD, Noveske and Colt?
Sure! It's just like ordering a Ferrari 599 GTO, with an I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel mileage." :rolleyes:
Why would you drop quality coin on a quality rifle, and feed it crap? I'll NEVER fathom this line of thinking...
I've seen some pretty good deals on steel ammo and have thought about picking up a few thousand rounds just to keep around for plinking and range use.
Disclaimer: I DID 'acquire' 700 rounds of Wolf lacquered steel case ammo, as part of a larger deal, about 5 years ago. It's at the bottom of one of my 40mm cans, underneath thousands of rounds of PMC Bronze and American Eagle .223 in that particular can. It's my bottom-of-the-barrel/last stand ammo, for that hour when all the OTHER brass-cased stuff is gone, and it's either or Wolf... or my rifle becomes a club. I figure, it'll end up a club shortly, EITHER way - time to 'download' the Wolf... maybe! :o
Sure! It's just like ordering a Ferrari 599 GTO, with an I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel mileage." :rolleyes:
Why would you drop quality coin on a quality rifle, and feed it crap? I'll NEVER fathom this line of thinking...
Disclaimer: I DID 'acquire' 700 rounds of Wolf lacquered steel case ammo, as part of a larger deal, about 5 years ago. It's at the bottom of one of my 40mm cans, underneath thousands of rounds of PMC Bronze and American Eagle .223 in that particular can. It's my bottom-of-the-barrel/last stand ammo, for that hour when all the OTHER brass-cased stuff is gone, and it's either or Wolf... or my rifle becomes a club. I figure, it'll end up a club shortly, EITHER way - time to 'download' the Wolf... maybe! :o
I'd say that Tula and Hornady Steel is better than the other junk (lacquered and corrosive). Shot some Tula today and was impressed at how clean it was compared to some other brands.
Brandon
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Failure2Stop
02-17-12, 21:57
My head hurts. . .
Far more catastrophic failures have come from brass cased ammo, but nobody is denouncing brass as being dangerous.
Steel cases do expand and achieve obturation. Otherwise everyone's guns would kB on the first round. See what happens with case head separation. It obturates at a different rate than brass, and tends to leave more soot/carbon behind than most brass, but rifles with 5.56 chambers seem to handle it fine. Some weapons have issues with it because the economy steel tends to be loaded to relatively low pressure, and there can be magazine issues with feeding due to the finish on the cases, seems to be hit and miss. Weapons with non-5.56 chambers (DPMS, RRA, etc) don't handle the increase in soot and carbon well, and result in stuck cases after getting warmed up a bit.
I have personally put 10 round, 2 MOA groups on paper at 100 yards with Wolf. I have seen many others do the same. It regularly meets or exceeds my precision with M855 or M193 (3 to 4 MOA).
This has probably been asked already, but while we're on the topic of economy steel cased ammo, do the bi-metal bullets of certain brands do any more harm to the barrel than copper jacketed lead bullets?
Is Wolf bi-metal? The Silver Bear/Golden Bear stuff is bi-metal.
bsmith_shoot
02-18-12, 00:56
This has probably been asked already, but while we're on the topic of economy steel cased ammo, do the bi-metal bullets of certain brands do any more harm to the barrel than copper jacketed lead bullets?
Is Wolf bi-metal? The Silver Bear/Golden Bear stuff is bi-metal.
Not at all. The bullet is much, much, much, softer than the hard-chrome lining in your barrel.
I run Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Herter's and Wolf steel cased ammo through my LE6920 and BCM 16" Middy with no problems whatsoever. But, for the last trip to the range, I figured I would stop at Walmart and grab a couple boxes of TulAmmo for the hell of it. NEVER again will I buy that SHIT. The first 30 rds went through the LE6920 flawlessy. Got to the second mag, 1st rd went no problem, 2nd rd fired and got stuck in the chamber. Bolt carrier would not budge, it was out of battery by about 1/4". Ended up having to mortar the shit out of it to get the upper to seperate from the lower, and ram a cleaning rod down the barrel to get the stuck casing out. I have seen nothing but problems from TulAmmo. The casings were dirty as hell too....
RogerinTPA
02-18-12, 04:16
I've probably fired well over 40K rounds of Wolf (Lacquered & Polymer), Barnaul/Brown Bear, & Golden Tiger (Both lacquered), with no issues over the years through 5 ARs ( 2x 6920s, 1 LMT MRP, 1 DD Light weight Middy and 1 Colt lower with a Saber Defense Middy upper, to include having shot it in several carbine courses. As long as you have a true 5.56 chamber and keep the weapon lubed, you should be fine.
RogerinTPA
02-18-12, 04:39
About a year ago I was anti-steel in AR's. Not that I thought that it hurts them, but because I had a bad experience with a lot of Wolf Classic.
About 6 months ago I picked up some new Wolf WPA and it shoots fine. I've put probably 2500+ rounds through both my DDM4 and BCM 14.5 with no issues. Its not the best stuff, but it does the job.
Bascially I see the biggest pro with steel is that its cheap. I could spend $150-$170 on 500 rounds of Fed AE or PMC Xtac, or spend $100 for 500 rounds of Wolf WPA. Sure, you lose some accuracy, which is why I only use steel in close range (under 50 yards) training. Anything over that I use more accurate ammo.
The downside is, your gun will get dirtier faster. I generally clean mine every 500 rounds with steel. I try to clean or at least scrub the chamger of the HD gun everytime I shoot Wolf through it. (Its a bad idea to mix up steel and brass, brass can get stuck).
I really don't know why many shooters have this obsession with shooting "clean ammo", which I've personally never heard of. Once you fire the weapon, it is not "clean" anymore. A couple of years ago, I'd shoot over 4K rounds of Wolf, Brown Bear, name your Russian ammo, per each of my 5 ARs, without cleaning, just lubing them, to see where the failures started to occur (stuck cases primarily). Which started around the 4500ish round count. I did it to see if all of the internet BS of shooting Russian steel case ammo had any validity to it (Jam up, gum up, it'll destroy you chamber, KB your gun, etc...), which it did not. I've been cleaning around the 2K mark ever since, and it's a quick hose down/wipe down, punch the bore a few times, clean the BCG, bolt, etc...takes 15-20 mins. I still regularly practice with steel case ammo to this day and continue to use it in carbine courses.
If you truly have a quality rifle then it should be able to shoot steel cased ammo without any issues.
In my experience quality barrel with a chrome lined bore and 5.56 chamber works best for shooting steel cased ammo.
Reagans Rascals
02-18-12, 08:28
Sure! It's just like ordering a Ferrari 599 GTO, with an I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel mileage." :rolleyes:
Why would you drop quality coin on a quality rifle, and feed it crap? I'll NEVER fathom this line of thinking...
Disclaimer: I DID 'acquire' 700 rounds of Wolf lacquered steel case ammo, as part of a larger deal, about 5 years ago. It's at the bottom of one of my 40mm cans, underneath thousands of rounds of PMC Bronze and American Eagle .223 in that particular can. It's my bottom-of-the-barrel/last stand ammo, for that hour when all the OTHER brass-cased stuff is gone, and it's either or Wolf... or my rifle becomes a club. I figure, it'll end up a club shortly, EITHER way - time to 'download' the Wolf... maybe! :o
you sound incredibly close to being a 1-upper.... you are the greatest and best and know better than everyone else. I think paying $2500 for a quality rifle, and purchasing cheaper ammo so you can indeed shoot more often is much more ideal than buying a $2500 rifle and then shooting it 4 times a year.
The rifle is the key point here, it is the tool. Not the ammo. Why would you not pay top dollar for the weapon itself? The ammo makes no difference either way, it is a consumable. You will continue to buy it. If you have a bad batch, just buy a different type next time, which is easy to do because you bought cheap to begin with.
With your line of condescending thinking, it would be better off not shooting at all unless I can afford to feed MK262 through my rifle all day every day.
Or would you rather I bought a POS DPMS for $685 and ran the Black Hills through that? It seems like you judge the quality of the ammo more so than the rifle.
It seems as if there has been quite of bit of condescension throughout this thread regarding those who want to shoot but don't have the funds to pay $495 per 1000 rounds. A 1 time purchase of 2-3k for a rifle is not impossible to come by, and it is just that... a 1 time purchase. Spending upwards of $500 a month on ammo is not an easy thing to stomach for some, if not most.
I cannot afford to spend $700-800 a month on "quality" ammo, I can however afford to buy the same number of rounds if I go steel. I was simply asking if steel will damage the weapon. I've heard issues regarding bolt overrides and etc. when using steel and the weapon having to be sent back to the Manufacturer to be repaired, something to do with steel casings not collapsing or deforming if need be to be removed.
JMO.. A good point was made regarding "how much one shoots" I think.. I'm lucky if I get one rifle outing per month, where I'll shoot 100-150 rounds. That's $25-$35 for the month. I'd like to shoot more, but have no easy access to a rifle range. At this rate I can afford PMC, etc..
I normally shoot this much weekly in 1911 and the 9mm carbine, but I still use mostly Federal AE there as well.. It's all relative I suppose.. Ron
militarymoron
02-18-12, 09:27
Sure! It's just like ordering a Ferrari 599 GTO, with an I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel mileage." :rolleyes:
Why would you drop quality coin on a quality rifle, and feed it crap? I'll NEVER fathom this line of thinking...
i wouldn't equate a quality rifle to a Ferrari, unless you have some kind of collectible firearms that's very rare and expensive, that you baby.
my question is, why wouldn't you run cheaper ammo in your rifle if you there is no practical degradation in performance or additional wear on the rifle?
while we've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence about malfunctions, stuck cases etc, i have yet to see someone actually show evidence of accelerated wear on a barrel by shooting steel cased ammo. if there is, i'd like to see it. malfunctions, accuracy etc are all performance-related. for my purposes, i cannot tell the difference between brass and steel cased ammo. it goes 'bang' and makes a hole in the paper or rings the steel, and costs me less. if i found steel cased ammo to cause more reliability issues than brass, i wouldn't use steel, but that hasn't been the case.
so, for me, i have not seen any reason NOT to shoot steel cased ammo in my rifles, to justify spending more per hole in the paper. i had a few stuck cases with the old wolf lacquer stuff, but have not experienced anything like that with the polymer coated cases.
bsmith_shoot
02-18-12, 09:28
JMO.. A good point was made regarding "how much one shoots" I think.. I'm lucky if I get one rifle outing per month, where I'll shoot 100-150 rounds. That's $25-$35 for the month. I'd like to shoot more, but have no easy access to a rifle range. At this rate I can afford PMC, etc..
I normally shoot this much weekly in 1911 and the 9mm carbine, but I still use mostly Federal AE there as well.. It's all relative I suppose.. Ron
Thats a good point. Theres more to the equation than cost of ammo, and its quality. Time available to shoot, proximity to ranges, local laws pertaining shooting, and ranges that require the use of their over-priced ammo. All of this dictate and govern the amount of shooting, and its quality, we get to do.
It seems as if there has been quite of bit of condescension throughout this thread regarding those who want to shoot but don't have the funds to pay $495 per 1000 rounds.
...
I was simply asking if steel will damage the weapon. I've heard issues regarding bolt overrides and etc. when using steel and the weapon having to be sent back to the Manufacturer to be repaired, something to do with steel casings not collapsing or deforming if need be to be removed.
Who pays that? Yes, the guy you quoted was unnecessarily rude, but Lake City M855 green tip is going for $149/420 rounds and it comes already clipped in a sealed ammo can with an extra loading spoon. That's $0.35/round and it puts it down in handgun price ranges.
Even though I've seen several shooters have problems cycling the cheap stuff, I've never witnessed actual damage to a weapon.
If you want to shoot the cheap stuff, go for it. However, from the comments of Colt owners ("the gold standard," right?), it's clearly not just cheap rifles that have trouble with cheap ammo. If prices DO rise to what you said, then maybe I'll try it, but the good stuff is simply not that expensive if you look around.
I've had 2 failures to extract in close to 10k. I replaced the worn out $4 extractor spring.
Reagans Rascals
02-18-12, 10:51
Who pays that?
I was referring to the "best" ammo available... Black Hills 77gr. MK262
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339912049/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339114847/black-hills-remanufactured-ammunition-223-remington-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point-boat-tail
as opposed to:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/tula/1000-rds-223-hollow-point-62-grain-tula-ammo
I run Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Herter's and Wolf steel cased ammo through my LE6920 and BCM 16" Middy with no problems whatsoever. But, for the last trip to the range, I figured I would stop at Walmart and grab a couple boxes of TulAmmo for the hell of it. NEVER again will I buy that SHIT. The first 30 rds went through the LE6920 flawlessy. Got to the second mag, 1st rd went no problem, 2nd rd fired and got stuck in the chamber. Bolt carrier would not budge, it was out of battery by about 1/4". Ended up having to mortar the shit out of it to get the upper to seperate from the lower, and ram a cleaning rod down the barrel to get the stuck casing out. I have seen nothing but problems from TulAmmo. The casings were dirty as hell too....
I have had the same problem with tula in 223 and 45, I have also had issues with bad primers in Tula. However I have never had much of a problem with Wolf steel. I have sinced stopped shooting the wolf ammo only becasue I am saving brass to reload with my in-law.
polymorpheous
02-18-12, 11:09
Who pays that? Yes, the guy you quoted was unnecessarily rude, but Lake City M855 green tip is going for $149/420 rounds and it comes already clipped in a sealed ammo can with an extra loading spoon. That's $0.35/round and it puts it down in handgun price ranges.
Even though I've seen several shooters have problems cycling the cheap stuff, I've never witnessed actual damage to a weapon.
If you want to shoot the cheap stuff, go for it. However, from the comments of Colt owners ("the gold standard," right?), it's clearly not just cheap rifles that have trouble with cheap ammo. If prices DO rise to what you said, then maybe I'll try it, but the good stuff is simply not that expensive if you look around.
There are so many more variables here besides ammo and the make of the rifle and you know it.
Stop with the horseshit.
If you want to shoot the cheap stuff, go for it. However, from the comments of Colt owners ("the gold standard," right?), it's clearly not just cheap rifles that have trouble with cheap ammo. If prices DO rise to what you said, then maybe I'll try it, but the good stuff is simply not that expensive if you look around.
TulAmmo jammed one time in my Colt, only jam the rifle has ever experienced. Funny thing my buddy's Bushmaster jams on a regular basis, regardless of the ammo used...
HackerF15E
02-18-12, 12:07
You guys keep repeating all of the doom-and-gloom about steel-cased and bi-metal jacket ammo...that will keep demand and prices on it down for the rest of us, thanks.
And yes, I am a ****ing awesome person, you would be lucky to meet me. :cool::cool:
I am one lucky man!
For me - if it won't run steel, I don't keep it.
Any rifle should be able to run any "spec" ammo regardless of it's location of MFG or political slant.
You guys keep repeating all of the doom-and-gloom about steel-cased and bi-metal jacket ammo...that will keep demand and prices on it down for the rest of us, thanks.
Buy the TulAmmo!
I was referring to the "best" ammo available... Black Hills 77gr. MK262
...as opposed to:
http://www.sgammo.com/product/tula/1000-rds-223-hollow-point-62-grain-tula-ammo
That is quite a difference. Thanks!
There are so many more variables here besides ammo and the make of the rifle and you know it.
Instead of saying childish things like "Stop with the horseshit," how about you educate us poor rubes?
I don't think an AR15 should have any trouble with steel. Out of the many AR15's I shot, the only that couldn't feed steel was a Colt match HBAR. It worked with steel once I swapped the bolt with a SP-1 bolt. I can't explain it.
Personally, to hell with both steel and brass. I'm holding out for polymer cases.
Travelingchild
02-18-12, 16:59
.... the only that couldn't feed steel was a Colt match HBAR. It worked with steel once I swapped the bolt with a SP-1 bolt. I can't explain it.
Funny, My Colt Match HBAR functions just fine on a diet of wolf & tula, as long as I run it wet .. My buddies 3 bushmasters won't.
Personally, to hell with both steel and brass. I'm holding out for polymer cases.
I got a good laugh from that, but I remember about 20 years ago, there was a lot of talk about self-consuming cartridges. H&K was supposedly testing different chemicals that would be solid enough to hold the shape of a cartridge, but once ignited, burn clean enough to allow the next round to chamber after it. I wonder what ever became of that project?
:blink:
polymorpheous
02-18-12, 17:21
Instead of saying childish things like "Stop with the horseshit," how about you educate us poor rubes?
Lube?
Buffer weight?
Bolt carrier?
Chamber dimension?
Staked carrier key?
Buffer spring?
Magazine?
This is just off the top of my head.
I got a good laugh from that, but I remember about 20 years ago, there was a lot of talk about self-consuming cartridges. H&K was supposedly testing different chemicals that would be solid enough to hold the shape of a cartridge, but once ignited, burn clean enough to allow the next round to chamber after it. I wonder what ever became of that project?
:blink:
Not much I think.. Ron
Suwannee Tim
02-18-12, 18:31
Sure! It's just like ordering a Ferrari 599 GTO, with an I-4 diesel... for the, "fuel mileage." :rolleyes:
Why would you drop quality coin on a quality rifle, and feed it crap? I'll NEVER fathom this line of thinking...
I have an LMT MRP with a Spikes 22 LR barrel and bolt, total cost without optics, about $2K. The Ferrari of 22 plinkers for damn sure. What do you think I should feed it? Promotional Federal (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Federal-Ammunition-22LR-36gr-Copper-Plated-550ct/17128628)? Or Eley Tenex Ultimate Red (http://www.championshooters.com/ammo.htm)?:D
I started out with US commercial ammo then went to brass case US military ammo then to steel case Tula and now am shooting 5.45 mm milsurp almost exclusively. I guess that makes me a real bottom feeder, huh?
....I remember about 20 years ago, there was a lot of talk about self-consuming cartridges. H&K was supposedly testing different chemicals that would be solid enough to hold the shape of a cartridge, but once ignited, burn clean enough to allow the next round to chamber after it. I wonder what ever became of that project?
:blink:
Troubles. Two, IIRC were that the cartridge was not very rugged and the other being that a magazine or box of cartridges or worse a case or even worse a pallet..... cartridges in quantity burned furiously not having cartridge cases to slow the spread of ignition. In other words caseless cartridges are a very serious fire hazard.
Product Improvement Test of Cartridges, 5.56-mm, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases
"A March 1970 report from the Army Infantry Board, Fort Benning, Georgia. The purpose of the test was to determine suitability of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges to replace standard brass-cased cartridges, and to determine the physical and technical characteristics of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges. Specific test phases to which the steel-cased cartridges were subjected were physical characteristics, safety, cartridge-weapon compatibility, adverse conditions (60-day open storage period), reliability, and human factors. There were no deficiencies and one shortcoming found: the susceptibility of the test cartridges to rust. There were 47 incidents of split cases out of 21,642 steel-cased rounds fired. However, these split cases did not adversely affect the operation of the weapons. There were 71 malfunctions with weapons firing control cartridges and 53 malfunctions with weapons firing test cartridges. All malfunctions, with the exception of three, were either weapon- or magazine- caused. The blast, flash, noise, and felt recoil produced by the test cartridges were comparable to those of the control cartridges. The test cartridges ejected farther to the rear and right than did the control cartridges. It was concluded that the steel-cased 5.56-mm cartridges were compatible with the M16A1 rifle and were suitable for US Army use under intermediate climatic conditions."
I got a good laugh from that, but I remember about 20 years ago, there was a lot of talk about self-consuming cartridges. H&K was supposedly testing different chemicals that would be solid enough to hold the shape of a cartridge, but once ignited, burn clean enough to allow the next round to chamber after it. I wonder what ever became of that project?
:blink:
I remember that. I don't think it was that far back that they were still working on it. Like 10 years. The speculation at the time was problems with pressures. But no one seemed to ever know for sure.
All joking aside, if steel vs brass causes THIS much debate, any new type of case should cause a war.
Suwannee Tim
02-18-12, 19:27
.....The speculation at the time was problems with pressures. But no one seemed to ever know for sure.....
I recall reading something about fire hazard and the cartridges being fragile.:D
Reagans Rascals
02-18-12, 21:03
Product Improvement Test of Cartridges, 5.56-mm, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases
"A March 1970 report from the Army Infantry Board, Fort Benning, Georgia. The purpose of the test was to determine suitability of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges to replace standard brass-cased cartridges, and to determine the physical and technical characteristics of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges. Specific test phases to which the steel-cased cartridges were subjected were physical characteristics, safety, cartridge-weapon compatibility, adverse conditions (60-day open storage period), reliability, and human factors. There were no deficiencies and one shortcoming found: the susceptibility of the test cartridges to rust. There were 47 incidents of split cases out of 21,642 steel-cased rounds fired. However, these split cases did not adversely affect the operation of the weapons. There were 71 malfunctions with weapons firing control cartridges and 53 malfunctions with weapons firing test cartridges. All malfunctions, with the exception of three, were either weapon- or magazine- caused. The blast, flash, noise, and felt recoil produced by the test cartridges were comparable to those of the control cartridges. The test cartridges ejected farther to the rear and right than did the control cartridges. It was concluded that the steel-cased 5.56-mm cartridges were compatible with the M16A1 rifle and were suitable for US Army use under intermediate climatic conditions."
excellent post
That is basically all I am shooting out of my BushMaster and it eats it like candy :dance3: My opinion is if your rifle does not function with steel ammo than you need to find one that does :haha:
Product Improvement Test of Cartridges, 5.56-mm, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases
"A March 1970 report from the Army Infantry Board, Fort Benning, Georgia. The purpose of the test was to determine suitability of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges to replace standard brass-cased cartridges, and to determine the physical and technical characteristics of the 5.56-mm steel-cased cartridges. Specific test phases to which the steel-cased cartridges were subjected were physical characteristics, safety, cartridge-weapon compatibility, adverse conditions (60-day open storage period), reliability, and human factors. There were no deficiencies and one shortcoming found: the susceptibility of the test cartridges to rust. There were 47 incidents of split cases out of 21,642 steel-cased rounds fired. However, these split cases did not adversely affect the operation of the weapons. There were 71 malfunctions with weapons firing control cartridges and 53 malfunctions with weapons firing test cartridges. All malfunctions, with the exception of three, were either weapon- or magazine- caused. The blast, flash, noise, and felt recoil produced by the test cartridges were comparable to those of the control cartridges. The test cartridges ejected farther to the rear and right than did the control cartridges. It was concluded that the steel-cased 5.56-mm cartridges were compatible with the M16A1 rifle and were suitable for US Army use under intermediate climatic conditions."
I wonder why it was never adopted...?
Great post regarding the 1970 testing @ FT Benning.
Just to confirm before I go buy a couple cases ---> No known serious issues shooting Wolf brand ammo in quality ARs (Colt, Noveske, etc).
:D
It depends on the shooter. Since I retired from the Marine Corps, I occasionally open a range at Marine Corps Base, Quantico for recreational shooters. In exchange for getting certified as an RSO and opening ranges a few times a year, my membership is free. We have a mix of Marines and civilian members and some are more experienced than others. Shooters I see regularly, I typically feel little need to supervise; likewise, civilians that I've never seen, or in the unfortunate case of a couple that I HAVE seen, I feel a greater need to keep an eye on.
The rules on a military range are generally more strict than civilian ranges and while the Marines using the ranges during the week may bend or break the rules and get away with it, those of us using the ranges for rec-fire don't dare try to bend them. It can be a pain, but there aren't many 600 and 1000 yard ranges around this part of Virginia and there's only 5 Olympic Trap ranges in the entire country and we have all of the above.
:D
Do you have link to the website with public schedule for this range? How much does it cost to shoot there?
It may have already been said but personally I don't shoot Russian steel cased ammo through my AR's. My KA SR-15-3 is chambered and meant to run .556 ammunition and I rather not **** with shitty ammo. I did buy 2000 rounds of Wolf Military and fed it to my Robinson XCR. It ate it but when it's gone I probably won't replace it.
I understand why people buy and shoot it and on a budget I would probably do the same. That said don't wonder why your gun is not accurate and has failures when you use the shittiest ammo on the planet. :haha:
Jake Bauer
02-18-12, 22:18
Aside from about 300 rounds of various federal/remington/monarch brass, all I've ever shot out of my DDM4 is Silver bear so technically I guess all I shoot is steel cased stuff and I've yet to have a hiccup.
I hadn't ever even considered shooting any lacquered steel (brown bear, wolf, monarch steel, etc) out of my rifle, but it's good to hear many of you guys with DDs havent had any issues with them. Might have to try some out.
Do you have link to the website with public schedule for this range? How much does it cost to shoot there?
http://www.quanticoshootingclub.com/
Aside from about 300 rounds of various federal/remington/monarch brass, all I've ever shot out of my DDM4 is Silver bear so technically I guess all I shoot is steel cased stuff and I've yet to have a hiccup.
I hadn't ever even considered shooting any lacquered steel (brown bear, wolf, monarch steel, etc) out of my rifle, but it's good to hear many of you guys with DDs havent had any issues with them. Might have to try some out.
Yesterday I put 150 rounds of WPA (the new wolf) through my DDM4 without any issues. Accuracy in terms of grouping is similiar to silver bear, but it printed about 1/2 inch higher at 50 yards.
Do you have link to the website with public schedule for this range? How much does it cost to shoot there?
http://quanticoshootingclub.com/
You have to be a member to shoot unless it's a match and then you pay the match fee. There's a Garand match tomorrow.
Jake Bauer
02-18-12, 22:28
Yesterday I put 150 rounds of WPA (the new wolf) through my DDM4 without any issues. Accuracy in terms of grouping is similiar to silver bear, but it printed about 1/2 inch higher at 50 yards.
Good to know. Im getting very nice groups with silver bear at 100 yards using my eotech or irons. For the price, i'm sticking with it.
I wonder why it was never adopted...?
I don't know. Are you implying that just because it wasn't adopted means it was faulty?
I don't know. Are you implying that just because it wasn't adopted means it was faulty?
I was merely curious - the numbers seemed to support adopting it. Looking for a fight?
Travelingchild
02-18-12, 22:43
I wonder why it was never adopted...?
I skimmed the entire article " PDF Url : AD0869282" what I found interesting,
section 2.3.5.2 Quote " There was no significant difference in the bore wear of the test and control weapons"
If I read correctly, At times there was almost as many malfunctions related to the control cartridges (brass) vs the test cartridges(steel).
As far as why it was never adopted, it goes on to talk about more testing due to rust of the cartridges,
Positively Nothing about rust or damage to the weapon or the Functioning of the weapons.
Better not be looking for a fight.
The "steel-case ammo" donnybrook threads have been shut down before, when they got above-average-stupid, so let's not needlessly encourage entropy.
bsmith_shoot
02-18-12, 22:46
I was merely curious - the numbers seemed to support adopting it. Looking for a fight?
Lol! You crack me up Locutus! I would like to know why they didnt delve any dweper into it myself.
bsmith_shoot
02-18-12, 22:50
I have to say that this is the first steel case thread that ive seen go well. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, or the taco bell is startin to do its thang.
As far as why it was never adopted, it goes on to talk about more testing due to rust of the cartridges,
Positively Nothing about rust or damage to the weapon or the Functioning of the weapons.
Interesting. I wonder if polymer was being used then? I'm sure they took their inspiration from the Soviet Bloc, but I don't know how advanced they were at that point.
This has turned into a steel vs. brass debate.
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