View Full Version : Shooting off hand, how good is good?
TheCracker
02-17-12, 10:22
I'm a total AR noob and have only had my Smith and Wesson m&p 15 optics ready for 2 weeks.
Anyhow, I put a EOtech XPS2-0 on it last week and zeroed the rifle. For the heck of it I decided to do some off hand steel shooting @50 yards and it was a lot harder than I thought it would be to hold the thing still. I could hit the 8" plate with ease but really had to focus to hit the 4" plate. Obviously, I can hit the plate from a bench with ease and was getting .5" groups @50 on paper from the bench.
I am going to attempt some 100 yard shooting for the heck of it. Just for the challenge.
So, what would be acceptable off hand groups at 50, 100 yards and maybe beyond? Is there a standard that people try to get to?
I plan to start trying to build my skills for the fun of it.
militarymoron
02-17-12, 10:31
i think i'm pretty happy to hold 8-10 MOA at any distance, offhand, standing. so, that'd be approx 2.5" at 25, 5" at 50, 10" at 100 etc. this is taking my time, slow fire.
So, what would be acceptable off hand groups at 50, 100 yards and maybe beyond? Is there a standard that people try to get to?
When I was in the Marine Corps, staying inside a 12" bullseye at 200 yards with open sights was the goal and a fairly reasonable one at that (if you couldn't do the same in the sitting and kneeling positions, then you probably needed extra instruction). Now that they use ACOGs, they may have made it more difficult.
Doc Safari
02-17-12, 10:43
TheCracker, when I was a total noob I found it helpful to take up the art of "plinking", that is, shooting at actual objects (like aluminum cans) that react when shot so it gives immediate feedback. That often improves your shooting because you are not just doing the mechanical shooting at stationary targets, measuring your groups, and whatnot. If you can't hit a soda can sized target at up to 100 yards with your AR, then you need to keep working on it. Then and only then would I start worrying about "do I shoot eight inch groups or 6 inch groups."
If you can place your targets on the slope of a decent hilly backstop, then you can also start to develop your skills at shooting moving targets, as some will bounce or roll and you can try taking extra snap shots at them.
I realize all of this is from the persepctive of a civilian who started out very informally, but you sound a lot like me when I got my first long gun many, many moons ago. :secret:
As for the muzzle wobbling, you just have to practice, get used to the weight, and hit the gym if you need to.
wetidlerjr
02-17-12, 11:08
TheCracker, when I was a total noob I found it helpful to take up the art of "plinking", that is, shooting at actual objects (like aluminum cans) that react when shot so it gives immediate feedback. ..
I agree. I was going to say something similar but Doc Glockster beat me to it. :D
lifebreath
02-17-12, 11:32
I'm happy to bang a 12" plate fairly consistently at 200 yards.
How about this at 200 yards? G.H. Wentworth offhand March 27, 1886. The 10-ring measured 1.63" ... :blink:
http://ic2.pbase.com/o6/50/494150/1/70640379.kMoaxVoe.WentworthMarch271886.jpg
How about this at 200 yards? G.H. Wentworth offhand March 27, 1886. The 10-ring measured 1.63" ... :blink:
Nice. What was he shooting?
Not wanting to talk you into something that would strain your budget, but a 22LR upper would be extremely helpful and pay for itself in ammo savings after a while. Shooting at cans, clay targets on a hillside, etc is the best idea and makes learning more fun.
SpaceWrangler
02-17-12, 12:24
I like the satisfying 'bing' of hitting steel. I use a 12" diameter target gong made of 5/8-inch AR500 steel, set at 100 yards hanging from a tripod made of electrical conduit and light chain.
POW!
bing!
POW!
bing!
My offhand groups are therefore Minute of Pie-Plate, but it's still good practice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gong-Target-12-Diameter-AR500-5-8-Steel-Plate-/110620060568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c1782b98#ht_500wt_717
:cool:
I'm happy to bang a 12" plate fairly consistently at 200 yards.
How about this at 200 yards? G.H. Wentworth offhand March 27, 1886. The 10-ring measured 1.63" ... :blink:
G.H. Wentworth? Isn't it his money and doesn't he want it now? :D
1.63"? Is the 1886 date correct or was that supposed to be 1986? What was he shooting?
Either way, impressive!
Eurodriver
02-17-12, 13:42
When I was in the Marine Corps, staying inside a 12" bullseye at 200 yards with open sights was the goal and a fairly reasonable one at that (if you couldn't do the same in the sitting and kneeling positions, then you probably needed extra instruction). Now that they use ACOGs, they may have made it more difficult.
Having used both, I can confidently say that using the ACOG is easier standing at the 200. Just wait until the chevron is in the black and gently squeeze the trigger before it leaves. It only seemed easier, for me, with iron sights because the front sight did not appear to move as much.
True story, I once shot clean from the 200 yard line in all three positions, and the 300 yard slow fire. It wasn't until the 300 rapid that I dropped 2 points.
To this day if I tell a Marine I shot a 248 they will confidently say "Yeah man, well...the standing sucks!" :dirol:
Cesiumsponge
02-17-12, 13:51
1886 is correct. The crap some of these old timers pulled off with wood stocks and peep sights is unreal.
True story, I once shot clean from the 200 yard line in all three positions, and the 300 yard slow fire. It wasn't until the 300 rapid that I dropped 2 points.
I almost always cleared the 200, but the 300 rapid usually got me and I'd usually drop 2 - 3 points at the 500. I generally shot in the 230 - 234 range with 236 my highest in 20 years.
To this day if I tell a Marine I shot a 248 they will confidently say "Yeah man, well...the standing sucks!" :dirol:
Yeah man, well...the standing sucks!
:D
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nat-trophy/tro-067.pdf
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nat-trophy/tro-067.pdf
OUCH! 20 shots offhand? My only purpose there would be to make everyone else look good!
:D
TheCracker
02-18-12, 18:43
I like the satisfying 'bing' of hitting steel. I use a 12" diameter target gong made of 5/8-inch AR500 steel, set at 100 yards hanging from a tripod made of electrical conduit and light chain.
POW!
bing!
POW!
bing!
My offhand groups are therefore Minute of Pie-Plate, but it's still good practice.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gong-Target-12-Diameter-AR500-5-8-Steel-Plate-/110620060568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c1782b98#ht_500wt_717
:cool:
I'm using the AR500 targets as well. I might have a to buy a 12" for longer range off hand. I bought them for mainly pistol shooting at 15-30 yards. It would be fun to work up to 200 yards with a 12" plate.
TheCracker, when I was a total noob I found it helpful to take up the art of "plinking", that is, shooting at actual objects (like aluminum cans) that react when shot so it gives immediate feedback. That often improves your shooting because you are not just doing the mechanical shooting at stationary targets, measuring your groups, and whatnot. If you can't hit a soda can sized target at up to 100 yards with your AR, then you need to keep working on it. Then and only then would I start worrying about "do I shoot eight inch groups or 6 inch groups."
If you can place your targets on the slope of a decent hilly backstop, then you can also start to develop your skills at shooting moving targets, as some will bounce or roll and you can try taking extra snap shots at them.
I realize all of this is from the persepctive of a civilian who started out very informally, but you sound a lot like me when I got my first long gun many, many moons ago. :secret:
As for the muzzle wobbling, you just have to practice, get used to the weight, and hit the gym if you need to.
So your saying you could hit a soda can standing at 100 yards every time? That's impressive.
Partner regardless of how good you get, you can never be good enough, ever. Perfection is unattainable but strive for it. It's that extra inch, extra mile, extra shot that will always make a difference.
As for the muzzle wobbling, you just have to practice, get used to the weight, and hit the gym if you need to.
TheCracker,
One thing they (at least used to) teach at Marine Corps boot camp is that there's more than one way to skin the offhand cat. Since you are supposed to pull the trigger as you reach the bottom of an exhale anyway, try starting above the target, then exhale and as the front sight naturally passes down through the target, pull the trigger just as the front sight passes through the target. Don't forget - you're supposed to focus on the front sight post; NOT the target...
Personally, I did not do well with that method, but I'm a barely passable offhand shooter anyway. I was a rather good rifle coach in the 70's and a rather bad High Power competitor in the 80's :p and I've seen it work for many people.
Partner regardless of how good you get, you can never be good enough, ever. Perfection is unattainable but strive for it. It's that extra inch, extra mile, extra shot that will always make a difference.
The "entire post typed in oversized font" bullshit stops.
Right.
Goddamned.
Now.
Post edited to mimic being typed by an adult.
Post edited to mimic being typed by an adult.
That's is seriously unprofessional.
One plays stupid games, one wins stupid prizes.
You wanna maybe practice what you preach, by putting your editorial in a PM to me, instead of publicly posting it in an open forum?
Let's look upon it as my perceived, M4C-management-approved unprofessionalism being canceled out by your open disrespect to forum moderator staff.
Otherwise, you can eat a 20pt Disrespect to Mods/Staff infraction.
Lemme know what you wanna do. I'd advise doing so by PM, or by just dropping it.
TheCracker
02-19-12, 11:31
One plays stupid games, one wins stupid prizes.
Words of wisdom right there! LMAO!
MOUNT-N-SLOT
02-19-12, 11:40
Using the thumb over top method of forward grip Travis Haley taught me during his Disruptive Environments class last summer, I can hit a man sized plate at 400 meters consistently using my 14.5" and Aimpoint T-1 Micro with 4 MOA dot.
MOUNT-N-SLOT
TheCracker
02-19-12, 12:20
I'm guessing you are asking for a ban??
Hint: You also might want to check your grammar before questioning ones IQ!
TheCracker
02-19-12, 12:38
I havent sucked up to anyone pal! Ive just seen how it works around here.:eek:
I always find it amusing when someone tries to call someone stupid and they cant even use a comma or the correct form of words like "your" and "you're".
TheCracker
02-19-12, 12:47
Back to the topic.
Thanks for the input for everyone. Im going to deploy some of this info in my next range session.
Back to the topic.
Thanks for the input for everyone. Im going to deploy some of this info in my next range session.
Knock 'em dead! :D
SWATcop556
02-19-12, 13:26
After cleaning up all the OT bullshit in this thread one member got a vacation and others are close to joining.
If you have issues with how the site is run use the PM function and contact the Mod in question or Staff.
Posting your dissension in an open forum will NOT fly here.
This one stays on topic or it goes away.
Evil Colt 6920
02-19-12, 13:41
I did some offhand shooting for the first time in over a year this weekend. And damn its nothing like riding a bike. I did OK but was not happy. My brother on the other hand was something to laugh about. I realize there may not be a "proper stance" but does anyone have any insight to give on a stance that works well for them? Pics?
An Undocumented Worker
02-19-12, 14:03
What precisely is meant by Off Hand. Standing, sitting, prone, slung, unslung?
militarymoron
02-19-12, 14:37
i always understood it to be standing, unsupported, with or without a sling.
Terminator2003
02-19-12, 18:57
i always understood it to be standing, unsupported, with or without a sling.
that is the definition I go by also.
Doc Safari
02-19-12, 20:08
So your saying you could hit a soda can standing at 100 yards every time? That's impressive.
Ha ha, LOL...if only!:D
I can do it pretty consistently with an AR and an RDS though. I don't miss often.
With an AK that's a different story, and it's one reason I don't own an AK anymore. "Minute of Milk Jug" just wasn't cutting it, especially when I seemed to miss the milk jug more than I hit it at 100 yards.
Hitting a soda can at that distance with an AR's accuracy isn't really that hard. Just take your time.
My only point was that plinking builds your confidence because the hits are easier to obtain and the immediate feedback is encouraging.
TheCracker, ... :secret:
As for the muzzle wobbling, you just have to practice, get used to the weight, and hit the gym if you need to.
Many too many years ago I instructed new pistol shooters and all complained about the sights moving. At the time I was deep into competitive NRA style bullseye shooting and countered with: "Every target is a moving target." That thought helps you understand that to some extent you must learn your trigger and the anticipate the release. By doing so relative to your "moving" sight picture you will effectively lead the otherwise stationary target.
In regards to plinking or informal target acquisition: Hell Yeah!
Advise, burn ammo and enjoy, when you can out shoot the current platform consider upgrades, quality trigger first, sights second, and a distant third would be a match quality barrel.
I'm comfortable with consistantly hitting a 8" steel plate at 100yds from a standing, unsupported postition.
Consistantly hitting a soda can offhand at 100yds is damn good shooting.
I'm like Doc as far as plinking is concerned.
I do some dirt shooting that some think is a waste of time and ammo. It's not. It is enjoyable and should promote trigger control by simply shooting the gun. As long as you're serious about obtaining hits, a person should benifit from it.
Our property borders a river and I often times go down and just plink in the water and along the bank. Floating leaves, sticks, discolored places on the sand bank on the other side. 10 to 25yd shots.
My daugther loves to go with me and shoot the 10/22.
On a side note.......JSantoro.....is the.....King of Pain
:D
Doc Safari
02-20-12, 10:11
Consistantly hitting a soda can offhand at 100yds is damn good shooting.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, and I'm not bragging, but I'm a little surprised at these responses.
I never thought anything of it. A soda can is, what? A six inch target? If you can hit a soda can at 100 yards that's six inch groups. The target is small enough at that range that the glint of sun off the metal definitely helps in acquiring the target. I also stick to bright red or some other colored can that is a good contrast against the backstop. Sure it's easier at 50 and I prefer 50 yards.
Just to clarify I'm not saying I can hit the dead center of the can at 100 yards every time. If I hit it squarely, knock it over, or make it bounce, I'm happy. I also do miss, but not often. Say out of a thirty round mag if I miss a couple-three-four times, no big whoop.
I didn't think it was that big a big deal, but then again I've been plinking for over 20 years, so maybe all that practice has paid off. I certainly did not do that the first few times I shot my first rifle.
The inherent accuracy of the gun helps tremendously, too. It's a lot easier to hit a Coke can at 100 yards with an AR and an RDS than just about any other gun I can think of. In fact, I don't know that I have done it with any other gun. I'd have to think about that. I certainly don't remember doing it with an SKS!
It also helps that I practiced enough with the rifle until I knew where it hit at various distances with the RDS mounted. I've noticed you have to plan on being able to aim slightly below the target so you don't obscure it with the red dot. It also may be of interest to note that I normally shoot various versions of .223 which is a little more accurate than a lot of the 5.56 rounds I've used (at least in my experience and my rifle). LOL--no I can't name every brand right off hand, but I use PMC Bronze .223 a lot because it's cheap.
Seriously I'm not bragging on my own abilities but that's why I dig plinking more than paper target shooting. (I have trouble putting rounds on a paper target at 100 yards with any degree of consistency). In a word, I like offhand plinking because I suck at bench rest shooting. Bench rest shooting reminds me of tossing and turning in bed: by the time I get comfortable I've wasted so much time.....and it seems like I shift too much between shots.
Anyway, I only wanted to add these thoughts to illustrate why I'm a definite advocate of plinking. With an accurate rifle (AR), good ammo, good RDS, and plenty of practice (main thing), it should be easy. It also builds immediate confidence and makes you want to shoot more. If I had to depend on shooting paper targets all the time I might have concluded that I wasn't that interested in firearms.
If you can do it Doc....it ain't bragging. :cool:
I can hit a soda can at 100yds, just not with hits that could be called consistant. The problem with me and a upright soda can is windage. It's just not wide enough.:D
Doc Safari
02-20-12, 10:28
I can hit a soda can at 100yds, just not with hits that could be called consistant. The problem with me and a upright soda can is windage. It's just not wide enough.:D
LOL. Usually that's where I fail too. I've seen many a divot next to that pesky Coke can that just continues to stand there defiantly. But like a buddy of mine used to describe a near miss like that "if that was a human torso, he'd still be dead." :cool:
lifebreath
02-20-12, 10:59
Went to the range Saturday and banged away at a 1/2 size steel silhouette at 200 yards offhand rapid fire (10 shot strings in about 60 seconds). Hit about 90% of my shots, which I felt was pretty good, especially for not having shot for a couple of months. (Note: this was using my Trijicon TR24 at 4X. My 49 year old eyes need a little assistance!)
One thing to consider is that the more you try to hold the sights absolutely still, the more your sights will move due to trying to muscle the shot. You've got to relax a bit, let the sights move around a little and break the shot when you have a good sight picture. Many people try to wait for the "perfect" sight picture and miss the shot. With practice, you gain confidence to break the shot without hesitating when the sight picture is right.
G.H. Wentworth? Isn't it his money and doesn't he want it now? :D
Noppa - your thinking of J. G. Wentworth. It most definitely is HIS MONEY and yes, he wants it NoWWWWWWWWWW!!!
G.H. Wentworth, OTOH, was always poor. Never had any money, and he never wanted it at any time. Methinx he became a monk, or....something....
Tommato
A while back on TOS, there was some competition about shooting a grapefruit at 50 yards offhand. I decided to try it out. I added sprinting with rifle to place the grapefruit, then sprinting back to the 50 yard line, then taking the shot in less than 10 seconds upon arriving. This included charging the rifle. Open-sights, A2. I managed to hit the grapefruit something like 2 out of 3 times I did this, but only one SOLID hit. The other skinned it.
I think for practical application, one should sprint/run. If you are not mobile, there is no need to shoot anything without a rest or more stable position.
Just my .02 on the matter, adjusted for inflation.
Your individual needs will determine the distance that you need to be able to get hits. For me, around 200 yards is about right. I don't have steel, so I use a paper plate stapled to a military E-Type silhouette. 5 round groups.
I'm not an expert, but if I feel the need to increase the difficulty, I build that into the training. I will do the sprinting, the push-ups, the physical exercises. I've also put the pressure of time in there by getting a shot timer app on my phone. The last thing that I've done is make the targets smaller. One of the goofiest things I've done is to field strip the weapon, and then have to put the first 5 shots on target in a set amount of time. There are also a couple rifle competitions in my area. Set up a training routine that steps you up to where you want to be. Trust the process of taking the steps necessary.
There are plenty of ways to get increase/decrease the difficulty to get my shooting where it needs to be. That being said, off-hand is very difficult for me.
Shooting off hand is definitely a skill you need to master. When you can do this well, try practicing shooting and moving. It will give you a good idea of what a real life shooting scenario could be like, as well as make you a better shooter.
And hit the weights. ;)
I'd like to know how accurate you are off-hand with your AR. Specifically, in a "combat" stance, with nothing for support. Let's start at 25yds. Can you keep everything in a 2" dot?
Lately, I'm getting more into an "every shot counts" mindset and just wondering what a reasonable goal would be to strive for. Since my local indoor range is 25yds, that is my starting point.
Thanks, and target pics would be good to prove the point.
If shooting slow, possibly.
If shooting faster and doing triple taps, probably not- will keep two in chest and one in head somewhere.
Given the criteria that you have listed and if I'm shooting decently fast (assuming speed since you mentioned combat stance) I probably won't shoot 2 inches at 25 yards.
I suppose I have something to try out next time I'm at the range. :p
militarymoron
03-26-12, 15:13
three pages on the same subject here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=99471
Can I ask why it matters? If I shoot you at 50 yards and my group is 5 inches are you any less dead than a 2 inch group?
Cool groups are nice for competition shooting. Hitting what you are aiming at and stopping the threat is more important.
Can I ask why it matters? If I shoot you at 50 yards and my group is 5 inches are you any less dead than a 2 inch group?
Cool groups are nice for competition shooting. Hitting what you are aiming at and stopping the threat is more important.
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps another way of asking the OP's question, is there an accuracy standard that one should shoot for in combat type shooting? Something along the lines of, shooting X amount of rounds during Y time interval into a maximum of Z inches?
Where is the line drawn from competition shooting to combat shooting as far as accuracy standards?
As long as I can "quick draw" and hit a torso sized target at 100 yds. On the move, I'm happy. More accuracy doesn't equal more dead (per se).
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps another way of asking the OP's question, is there an accuracy standard that one should shoot for in combat type shooting? Something along the lines of, shooting X amount of rounds during Y time interval into a maximum of Z inches?
Where is the line drawn from competition shooting to combat shooting as far as accuracy standards?
This, yes. And thanks to whomever merged threads. I've done a couple searches, but must not have used the correct key words as this thread didn't come up.
I guess I am too simple. If you are my target (enemy) and my goal is to put you down I fire a hammer pair to the torso (if possible) and see what happens. If you keep moving I do the same and then move on to the next target.
You can't compare competition shooting to combat whooting because they aren't the same and you surely don't have people firing back at you.
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps another way of asking the OP's question, is there an accuracy standard that one should shoot for in combat type shooting? Something along the lines of, shooting X amount of rounds during Y time interval into a maximum of Z inches?
Where is the line drawn from competition shooting to combat shooting as far as accuracy standards?
I guess I am too simple. If you are my target (enemy) and my goal is to put you down I fire a hammer pair to the torso (if possible) and see what happens. If you keep moving I do the same and then move on to the next target.
You can't compare competition shooting to combat whooting because they aren't the same and you surely don't have people firing back at you.
Well, I can do that too. Does that mean I should put the gun away until such time as I find myself in a combat situation? I'm not looking to shoot high-power style all slung up and in a jacket. However, I would like to build skill and accuracy. The way your response is worded makes it sound like a worthless goal.
You should always strive to be as accurate as possible.
No matter the position, stance or environment.
There is only one way to acheive this.....practice/train.
Most everyone will shoot more accurately from a supported kneeling position than from a unsupported offhand position. I know I do.
Unless you are looking at ARs solely from a competition/match standpoint and not from a home defense / self preservation standpoint, I don't see where it matters if you can get two shots into a 2" circle at 25 yards are not.
If you can't get two fast shots off and hit a 8" circle at 25 yards....well you got trouble on both counts.
NavyDavy55
03-26-12, 16:45
I understand what you are saying, but perhaps another way of asking the OP's question, is there an accuracy standard that one should shoot for in combat type shooting? Something along the lines of, shooting X amount of rounds during Y time interval into a maximum of Z inches?
Where is the line drawn from competition shooting to combat shooting as far as accuracy standards?
I like to use center of bad guy for combat shooting whether it's pistol, rifle or shotgun. :D
Nothing really replaces, making the hits that are necessary for the situation and I am not taking into account numerous variables which cannot be factored such as a shooters actual reaction to a gunfight, Mr. Murphy moments etc. Having said that here is a broad brushstroke that many might follow....
An individual may benefit from training standards directed to where a shooter can perform at 200% of what they might find to be acceptable in a critical use situation. If that person finds that in a true critical use situation that an 8" hit zone center of upper mass to be acceptable then their training should perhaps be at a pace where they can achieve 4" hits. In other words if they go by a VERY BROAD generalization that a shooters skills or accuracy may easily diminish by 50% in a critical use situation, then 200% may be a place to start. Of course we should always be attempting to improve ourselves by pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zone and then dialing it back down. Now how fast should we be? As fast as we can get those accurate hits. A fast miss is still a miss, but a being too slow in an attempt to achieve overly extreme accuracy might just as easily get you killed also.
I am a big proponent of training on smaller sized hit zones, increasing distances beyond normal ranges and working at an exaggerated pace. Of course applying proper technique is a must when doing this while maintaining desired accuracy. This concept keeps pushing me outside of my own comfort zone which leads to improvement in my own skills.
Nothing really replaces, making the hits that are necessary for the situation and I am not taking into account numerous variables which cannot be factored such as a shooters actual reaction to a gunfight, Mr. Murphy moments etc. Having said that here is a broad brushstroke that many might follow....
An individual may benefit from training standards directed to where a shooter can perform at 200% of what they might find to be acceptable in a critical use situation. If that person finds that in a true critical use situation that an 8" hit zone center of upper mass to be acceptable then their training should perhaps be at a pace where they can achieve 4" hits. In other words if they go by a VERY BROAD generalization that a shooters skills or accuracy may easily diminish by 50% in a critical use situation, then 200% may be a place to start. Of course we should always be attempting to improve ourselves by pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zone and then dialing it back down. Now how fast should we be? As fast as we can get those accurate hits. A fast miss is still a miss, but a being too slow in an attempt to achieve overly extreme accuracy might just as easily get you killed also.
I am a big proponent of training on smaller sized hit zones, increasing distances beyond normal ranges and working at an exaggerated pace. Of course applying proper technique is a must when doing this while maintaining desired accuracy. This concept keeps pushing me outside of my own comfort zone which leads to improvement in my own skills.
Well said. While I'd be happy to shoot a 8" group at 100 yards while under duress, being shot at, or jacked up on adrenline I'm definitely not happy to shoot an 8" group in ideal conditions without the above mentioned factors to influence my shot placement.
Suwannee Tim
03-26-12, 20:38
I've never heard of anyone shooting off his hand. I imagine it would make one hell of a bloody mess. I once knew a guy who shot off the end of his finger.
when i went into the army in 07 we dident really train to shoot off hand. it was out of my mind and not that important to me at the time. in 2010 i went to sapper school. their it was required. it is very hard to learn and become consistant. what we where tought was not to start small and hope for a quick learning process. we started with 11'' groping at 100meters was the expectation, by the end of the training (on this subject) we had to keep 5'' grouping at 100 meters. start big and get good at that and work your way down you will be better in the long run and gain more from it rather then trying to be a pro from the getgo. good luck man and stick with it
If you can do it Doc....it ain't bragging. :cool:
I can hit a soda can at 100yds, just not with hits that could be called consistant. The problem with me and a upright soda can is windage. It's just not wide enough.:D
So, if you were to lay the soda can sideways and kept missing, the problem would be elevation? aka it's not tall enough! :p
I'm a total AR noob and have only had my Smith and Wesson m&p 15 optics ready for 2 weeks.
Anyhow, I put a EOtech XPS2-0 on it last week and zeroed the rifle. For the heck of it I decided to do some off hand steel shooting @50 yards and it was a lot harder than I thought it would be to hold the thing still. I could hit the 8" plate with ease but really had to focus to hit the 4" plate. Obviously, I can hit the plate from a bench with ease and was getting .5" groups @50 on paper from the bench.
I am going to attempt some 100 yard shooting for the heck of it. Just for the challenge.
So, what would be acceptable off hand groups at 50, 100 yards and maybe beyond? Is there a standard that people try to get to?
I plan to start trying to build my skills for the fun of it.
Now that this thread is over a month old now, I presume you have figured it out by now.
I will pass on what I gleaned from my recent class with Mike Pannone.
Your support side shooting should mirror your strong side in every aspect.
Balanced center of gravity, identical grip and position that you had on your strong side, ect.
Get into position, bring your rifle on target, adjust your stance to get a bit more comfortable, and hold for a few seconds. Lower your rifle, close your eyes, and bring your rifle back on target(ish). Open your eyes and see where you are at. Left or right, you need to adjust your stance (move your feet!) accordingly. Don't worry about elevation. Rinse and repeat. When you can bring your rifle on target eyes closed, you are at your body's natural aiming stance and you will have less arguing going on with your arms fighting for dominance to keep the rifle on target.
Go back to a normal standing position, and do the whole thing over again. Build that muscle memory.
A portion of the "S" drill is a good one for practice.
5 shots standing strong hand, transition to support side, fire another 5, drop to kneeling fire 5, transition back to strong side fire 5 kneeling. Use 2 different targets (one for strong, other for support) to see how they measure up. ETA - drop to sitting for both strong and support, then prone if you want to work in all the standard shooting positions. If you want to get dirty, then toss in secondary kneeling, and inverted prone (laying on your back).
If you never miss, then you are not pushing yourself hard enough. If you miss too much, then slow down till you get it right.
Nope and I never said that you should. I personally like to push myself when I shoot by extending distances (while shooting the SBR), different loadings and conditions.
Well, I can do that too. Does that mean I should put the gun away until such time as I find myself in a combat situation? I'm not looking to shoot high-power style all slung up and in a jacket. However, I would like to build skill and accuracy. The way your response is worded makes it sound like a worthless goal.
So, if you were to lay the soda can sideways and kept missing, the problem would be elevation? aka it's not tall enough! :p
That's what I'd claim anyway! :D
I usually worm up for Bullseye league by going out to the woods and just plink at unknown distances . I'm fairly new to rifle shooting (i.e. battle rifle) so I'm wondering if random distance plinking will help me with my rifle shooting like it did for bullseye .
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