View Full Version : 16" Midlength BCM won't feed steel casing. Normal or not?
I did a search for this and was not able to locate anything particular helpful. Most of the threads/posts are referring to the 14.5" Mid-length which I do understand is not reliable with crappy steel cased ammo. So, yeah, sorry if it has in fact been covered! :suicide:
To give you a little background, the rifle I'm running is:
16" BFH LW Mid-length BCM Upper
BCM Complete BCG
BCM Complete Blemished Lower (from Grant) with the standard H Buffer, etc.
Everything else is BCM including charging handle, etc, etc. In short, it's a quality BCM rifle.
I took it out for the first time and fired about 100 rounds of M193. Accurate as shit, feeds reliably. Sweet.
Next up, I put in the 62 grain Golden Bear hollow points I had a box of. The first one fired fine, but the first one fed from the mag itself would cause a failure to feed. I tried it a few times and it happened exactly the same way every time. I had to take my rifle apart and remove the BCG to get this oh-so-high-quality piece of ammo unstuck. boy, I'd hate to have to go through that in a self defense situation.
Golden Bear is obviously not great ammo. It's supposed to be "premium" Brown Bear ammo, I believe. It's steel cased ammo with a "brass coating" for reliable feeding. Yeah. Right. Anyway, I gave up on the Golden Bear hollow points and threw some more of the M193 in it.... Surprise! It functions fine.
At this point, I'm going to purchase one box of each steel cased brands out there (Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Tula, Wolf, etc) and see how those function. Has anyone else had issues with steel cased ammo specifically in a 16" Mid-length BCM? Again, I understand crappy ammo in the 14.5" is problematic but I purchased the 16" specifically for the fact that it's supposed to feed all kinds of ammo.
I understand I'll be putting crappy ammo in my BMW of AR's and everything; my main concern is that in a SHTF situation, I want to be able to fire whatever is available to me after I run through all of my NATO ammo. Beggers can't be choosers, right?
FYI: 'problem' was resolved after running around 500 or so rounds of full power 5.56 through the weapon, I no longer have short stroking issues with steel cased ammo.
ForTehNguyen
02-19-12, 14:18
all my BCMs, DD, Spikes uppers and my ACR all eat steel with no problems
It's probably the ammo but it could be a tight chamber.
It could be that it's a hollow point rather then being steel cased ammo that's making it fail. Perhaps the particular ammo might be underpowered? I doubt it though. I would try different types of steel cased ammo like you said. I don't have a mid length AR15, so I can't really talk about that. My Colt M4 upper never had trouble with Tula or wolf. I've had a Colt 20 inch match HBAR fail on steel cased Tula ammo, while the every single ar15 I fired before ran it fine. I switched the bolt to a SP-1 bolt and it ran steel cased ammo then with the HBAR. There are so many different factors that make one AR15 fail on steel cased ammo, where one will work fine.
all my BCMs, DD, Spikes uppers and my ACR all eat steel with no problems
That doesn't really help him.
Try it with a carbine buffer.
When you say "failure to feed" is it a total failure to feed (as in, fails to catch the next round in the magazine) or a partial failure to feed (as in, catches the next round but the bolt stops partway with the tip of the round stuck on the feedramp or the barrel extension lugs)?
It could be that it's a hollow point rather then being steel cased ammo that's making it fail. Perhaps the particular ammo might be underpowered?
I was thinking that too. Perhaps I'll try Golden Bear again in FMJ. I'll definitely be trying other steel cased ammo, probably also in FMJ.
I did read over on arfcom (i know..) that perhaps my gun needs to be a little bit more "broken in" and loosened up before firing the steel cased reliably. Any substance to that, or just mumbo jumbo ?
Try it with a carbine buffer.
When you say "failure to feed" is it a total failure to feed (as in, fails to catch the next round in the magazine) or a partial failure to feed (as in, catches the next round but the bolt stops partway with the tip of the round stuck on the feedramp or the barrel extension lugs)?
It does start to feed but it gets lodged in about half way with the tip sticking out.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 15:09
It's probably the ammo but it could be a tight chamber.
Not likely in a BCM upper.
I was thinking that too. Perhaps I'll try Golden Bear again in FMJ. I'll definitely be trying other steel cased ammo, probably also in FMJ.
I did read over on arfcom (i know..) that perhaps my gun needs to be a little bit more "broken in" and loosened up before firing the steel cased reliably. Any substance to that, or just mumbo jumbo ?
It does start to feed but it gets lodged in about half way with the tip sticking out.
It sounds like mumbo jumbo to me. I've had AR15's run perfectly fine out of box with steel. With the one that didn't run steel for me, no amount of break in would have changed the result. If worst comes to worst and your rifle won't run other steel cased ammo, I suppose you could try a different buffer or bolt combination.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 15:15
I did read over on arfcom (i know..) that perhaps my gun needs to be a little bit more "broken in" and loosened up before firing the steel cased reliably.
I wouldn't take stock in much you read over there.
But I suspect you know this.
Does the ammo have a laquer coating on it? Try rubbing two rounds together to see is they slide or if they stick/grab. Also, are you running GI mags or Polymer?
If the rounds stick try running a polymer mag to see if that helps. I ran into this with some Cabela's Herters 223 and will never buy that shit again. It fed better from a pmag and wouldn't feed even 2 or 3 rounds with a GI mag. Buy better i mean it would fed 5 to 6 rounds before jamming.
If you want to save money and shoot a ton of ammo get a used Dillon 550b, some once-fired and processed LC 5.56 brass, some pulled bullets, powder, and primers and go to town... You wont have any feeding issues with a quality gun/build.
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polymorpheous
02-19-12, 15:21
Does the ammo have a laquer coating on it? Try rubbing two rounds together to see is they slide or if they stick/grab. Also, are you running GI mags or Polymer?
If the rounds stick try running a polymer mag to see if that helps. I ran into this with some Cabela's Herters 223 and will never buy that shit again. It fed better from a pmag and wouldn't feed even 2 or 3 rounds with a GI mag. Buy better i mean it would fed 5 to 6 rounds before jamming.
Herters is polymer coated.
Rebranded Tula.
Rubbing 2 rounds together?
This sounds like TOS type silliness.
Does the ammo have a laquer coating on it? Try rubbing two rounds together to see is they slide or if they stick/grab. Also, are you running GI mags or Polymer?
If the rounds stick try running a polymer mag to see if that helps. I ran into this with some Cabela's Herters 223 and will never buy that shit again. It fed better from a pmag and wouldn't feed even 2 or 3 rounds with a GI mag. Buy better i mean it would fed 5 to 6 rounds before jamming.
If you want to save money and shoot a ton of ammo get a used Dillon 550b, some once-fired and processed LC 5.56 brass, some pulled bullets, powder, and primers and go to town... You wont have any feeding issues with a quality gun/build.
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He said it was brass coated. With my one AR15 that didn't run steel ammo, magazines made no difference, but I suppose it's possible that magazine could also a factor. To the OP, what magazines are you using?
I'm running strictly Pmags, currently. Again, they are steel cased rounds with supposed brass coating.
Purchased here:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/golden-bear-223-rem-62-gr-hp-240-rds.aspx?a=743102
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ1-Sb8Pl0QqnRX71q2EJ0v1P2sg_CL5CDV09-Me7HCUoi-KAZZ
edit: I'm actually a bit surprised that these do typically run in a 16" Mid-length as they feel like they are very heavily coated/lacquered. Almost to the point of looking and feeling like a fake round.
For what it is worth, my BCM upper needed about 150 rounds before it ran Wolf without hickup. I only had 2 fail to feeds which resulted in short stroking in the first 150 rounds but has eaten about 1400 wolf since then without any problems. That was only in the three months that I was actively shooting last year though.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 15:35
I have the exact same upper and lower.
I haven't run anything but m193 through it.
I can tell you that when I pulled the FSB to install a FF, the gas port read .062 on my calipers.
This isn't exactly the most accurate way to measure the port, but it told me that the gun was not likely to be overgassed.
Will it run underpowered ammo? I'm not sure, but I will try some out in the near future.
The cheapest thing you can do right now is buy a standard carbine buffer for under $10.
I assume you have the upper group well lubed?
Herters is polymer coated.
Rebranded Tula.
Rubbing 2 rounds together?
This sounds like TOS type silliness.
Not TOS silliness at all... If it was the same stuff with a polymer coating it was causing FTF coming out of the mag and I noticed it when loading and unloading the mags as well as when rubbing or sliding two rounds together as if they are being feed out of a mag.
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polymorpheous
02-19-12, 15:49
Not TOS silliness at all... If it was the same stuff with a polymer coating it was causing FTF coming out of the mag and I noticed it when loading and unloading the mags as well as when rubbing or sliding two rounds together as if they are being feed out of a mag.
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#1 Brown bear is not polymer coated.
#2 The OP was shooting Golden Bear, brass coated steel cased ammo.
#3 The issue here isn't the coating that is on the steel case.
For what it is worth, my BCM upper needed about 150 rounds before it ran Wolf without hickup. I only had 2 fail to feeds which resulted in short stroking in the first 150 rounds but has eaten about 1400 wolf since then without any problems. That was only in the three months that I was actively shooting last year though.
Interesting. Mine literally chokes on every single round that's fed from the magazine. I wish it was only twice in 150 rounds at this point :jester:
I have the exact same upper and lower.
I haven't run anything but m193 through it.
I can tell you that when I pulled the FSB to install a FF, the gas port read .062 on my calipers.
This isn't exactly the most accurate way to measure the port, but it told me that the gun was not likely to be overgassed.
Will it run underpowered ammo? I'm not sure, but I will try some out in the near future.
The cheapest thing you can do right now is buy a standard carbine buffer for under $10.
I assume you have the upper group well lubed?
Yeah, the carbine buffer is something I will be trying soon for sure. If you do shoot any poo through yours anytime soon, let me know how it runs.
If I run a carbine buffer is that going to cause any other issues or is that what I should be running in the first place?
It does start to feed but it gets lodged in about half way with the tip sticking out.
OK, followups...
my suggestion for the AR in general but especially for running steel-cased ammo is to lube, like to the point of dripping, the BCG.
Next, load one round, fire, and check to see if the bolt locks to the rear. If it does, repeat ten times or so.
CrazyFingers
02-19-12, 15:51
I've got a similar setup, standard BCM 16" midlength upper, BCM blem lower, BCM BCG, PMags. It's got over 1000 rounds of Brown/Silver Bear through it with 0 failures.
I doubt it's the ammunition.
Interesting. Mine literally chokes on every single round that's fed from the magazine. I wish it was only twice in 150 rounds at this point :jester:
Well, 14.5" LW mid-length with an H buffer and LMT spring. Nothing special, just needed to get it's moth balls out. I have ONLY run steel through the gun up to this point because I am a cheap bastard and I like shooting. I just have been broke due to several recent events that has soaked up my expendable assets that would normally have gone towards ammo.
I was just sharing my personal experience where the ammo definately WAS the problem. It was Herters... no idea what the coating was, but it was sticky as HELL. It was not the same type of "brass" coating as the OPs.
This may or may not be the OPs problem, but I thought I would share and possibly help him out.
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If I run a carbine buffer is that going to cause any other issues or is that what I should be running in the first place?
I can't say for sure, but I think any time you alter how the original system was designed to run, you always risk the chance of creating multiple/bigger problems. The midlength gas system was designed to run reliably with a midlength buffer.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 16:04
If you do shoot any poo through yours anytime soon, let me know how it runs.
Will do.
If I run a carbine buffer is that going to cause any other issues or is that what I should be running in the first place?
"H" buffers are usually standard.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 16:05
I can't say for sure, but I think any time you alter how the original system was designed to run, you always risk the chance of creating multiple/bigger problems. The midlength gas system was designed to run reliably with a midlength buffer.
What is a mid-length buffer?
What is a mid-length buffer?
I thought there was such thing as a midlength buffer?
I thought there was such thing as a midlength buffer?
Seriously?
Probably best to post when you KNOW something, not when you THINK something.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 16:13
I thought there was such thing as a midlength buffer?
Read more, post less.
Seriously?
Probably best to post when you KNOW something, not when you THINK something.
Alright, I made a mistake. Do you never make mistakes?
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 16:15
Alright, I made a mistake. Do you never make mistakes?
We all make mistakes.
It's just that this forum works hard at stopping the spread of misinformation.
Please guys, back on topic. He was trying to help and anyways I read it as an "H buffer" ;)
If you want to run the stuff now, find a CAR buffer and run that - less reciprocating weight will reduce the pressure required to reliably cycle it.
Throw more lube in too - I suspect this issue has more to do with the lower pressure from lower powered ammunition coupled with the steel casing not doing any favors during extraction - if the lubing isn't there, and the rifle isn't broken in (i.e. the phosphate parkerize on wear points hasn't worn in enough to reduce drag), it'll only run with good stuff - e.g. the M193 that the OP stated runs the rifle fine right now.
I think it'll cycle junk just fine, but only after half a case of quality brass stuff, even if lightly lubed - again, this is assuming lube wasn't the primary cause of current frustrations.
It's just that this forum used to work hard at stopping the spread of misinformation.
there.
It could be that it's a hollow point rather then being steel cased ammo that's making it fail.....
Not to back-track the thread, but
I don't understand why HP bullets would cause a problem...
Do others have issues with HP ammo?
I have had issues with FTF recently with Tula but it seems GI type mag (Fusil 30 rd.) related. Cleaned and some dry lubed the mags and it seems to fixed it so far.
Try the Carbine buffer. I have several friends with BCM Middys and they have no issues with steel cased or underpowered ammo using Carbine buffer.
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Not to back-track the the thread, but
I don't understand why HP bullets would cause a problem...
Do others have issues with HP ammo?
I have had issues with FTF recently with Tula but it seems GI type mag (Fusil 30 rd.) related. Cleaned and some dry lubed the mags and it seems to fixed it so far.
The shape of the bullet largely determines the feeding characteristics. The AR15/M16/M4 were originally designed with ball ammo in mind. Tula ammo has sporadic quality. I don't see how cleaning and lubing the magazines would fix a FTF. The round has already left the magazine and proceeded into the chamber.
polymorpheous
02-19-12, 18:10
People, this is a gas/buffer system problem.
I don't see how cleaning and lubing the magazines would fix a FTF. The round has already left the magazine and proceeded into the chamber.
I think in my situation, the mags were dry and hesitating and/or sticking.
I'm super poor, so I shoot a crap ton of steel case. My BCM middy has never given me an issue, Pmags or otherwise....
Doc Safari
02-19-12, 22:10
Another vote here for the carbine buffer. It's an eleven dollar part, for Pete's sake. At least try it and see if the problem magically goes away. It may be that you need to use a carbine buffer when shooting weaker ammo, and then switch back to the H buffer when shooting full power 5.56 ammo.
I had some occasional stoppages within the first 500 rounds or so with brown bear, to the point where I thought about sending it back to have the chamber looked at. I was pissed, because at the time my thinking was that I could spend more on the gun and save in the long run on ammo costs (most of my shooting is 10-40 yd carbine matches). After a little bit of time and learning to run it wet, I probably haven't had a stuck case in many thousands of rounds.
Both of my BCM middy's eat wolf and brown bear with no issue. Ones a 16" with H buffer and the other is 14.5" with H2 buffer. 55gr or 62gr HP Brown Bear is what I shoot most of the time.
..
I have no issues shooting Brown Bear 55gr FMJ from my 16" BCM midlength.
I do have the Vltor A5 receiver extension and buffer (standard A5 weight) installed.
IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BUFFERS AND OTHER PARTS STAY OUT OF HERE.
GeorgiaBoy
02-20-12, 00:05
I havn't seen this discussed yet in the thread so here goes:
Have you tried manually loading rounds into the chamber (as in inserting a loaded magazine, then either releasing the charging handle, or sending the bolt home from the bolt catch) and see if there is any feed problems? If the rounds are sticking at that point, its a magazine problem.
polymorpheous
02-20-12, 01:09
IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND BUFFERS AND OTHER PARTS STAY OUT OF HERE.
Thank you.
Another vote here for the carbine buffer. It's an eleven dollar part, for Pete's sake. At least try it and see if the problem magically goes away. It may be that you need to use a carbine buffer when shooting weaker ammo, and then switch back to the H buffer when shooting full power 5.56 ammo.
I have a feeling that may be what I end up having to do, as well. I'd rather just run the same buffer 24/7/365 but I guess that's part of shooting poor quality ammo. Could be worse, takes me all of about 30 seconds to swap the buffer.
I appreciate everybody's advice and help with this. I'm always amazed how quickly I can get help here. I've gone ahead and purchased a carbine buffer straight from BCM so we'll see what happens.
Another question:
I see alot of people saying that a 16" middy should almost always run a CAR but an equal amount of others saying they run an H or even heavier in theirs. This is why, until now, I have not bothered to get a lighter buffer for my setup, because I figured I'd just keep the H that BCM gives by default.
Are there any real downsides that I need to consider when running a carbine (mostly) 100% of the time in a rifle such as mine? I understand the differences and the fact that I'll be speeding my cycle rate up but I've heard alot of conflicting stories.
Most of the guys I know with Middys which wont run underpowered ammo reliably just keep the Carbine buffer in....no need to switch back and forth. Its still a soft shooting set up.
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If the bolt moves far enough back to clear the fired round and then pick up the next round only to FTF and get jammed on the feedramp or extensions why would it be a buffer issue/gas issue? Sorry if this has been answered.
So I took my rifle out again yesterday and had another malfunction. I was not using steel cased ammo. This time it was a stuck round but in this case it seemed to be a double feed. There was 2 live rights fighting for the chamber, basically. One was nearly chambered 'correctly' while another one was stuck up underneath it. I had to break my gun down, remove BCG, etc to clear this malfunction just as the I was with the steel cased ammo.
I was using Remington 223 and M193 in a PMag that's only about 2 weeks old. I don't remember for sure which ammo was in the mag at the time but I'm leaning towards the M193 that has previously been fine for this rifle. Unrelated? Rounds not seated correctly in the mag, perhaps?
Edit: These were the last two rounds in the mag that malfunctioned and did a double feed, if that says anything. After clearing the malfunction, I reloaded the same mag and shot another 45-50 rounds through it flawlessly.
How many mags do you have in rotation? Is the problem occurring with the same mags?
New rifle so I've only got a few mags in rotation with more on the way. I have not marked the mags yet although I'll remember to when I get home today. Steel casings were malfunction in numerous magazines and I've only had 1 malfunction through my black Pmag that was not steel casing.. which was the double feed...
Op, have you contacted BCM?
My BFH middy hasn't had any problems with a H buffer and weak steel case.
Op, have you contacted BCM?
My BFH middy hasn't had any problems with a H buffer and weak steel case.
No, I have not. I purchased this upper like new from a trustworthy member here. Is yours a 16" Mid-length?
No, I have not. I purchased this upper like new from a trustworthy member here. Is yours a 16" Mid-length?
Yes it is. I would still get in touch with BCM.
OP,
Try this:
1. Clean the rifle completely, use a chamber brush.
2. lube BCG generously. (wet)
3. Install original H buffer
4. Place 1 round of steel cased ammo in a known good magazine and fire. Do this 5-10 different times. Does the BCG lock back each and every time?
5. repeat above with a carbine buffer. Does it lock back each time?
BCM rifles usually ship with an H buffer to run properly with Mil-Spec ammo. EG: M193, M855 etc. If you want to run lower powered ammo you "Might" have to reduce buffer weight to do so.
Also check your magazines for feed lip damage or cracks. Check the Pmags down the rear of the rear spine and under the rear of the feed lip on the spine for cracks. I have had 3 crack and that can cause type 3 malfunctions (double feed).
Good luck and get back to us on your findings.
Darkop
Yeah you need to check your mags if you had a double feed. Might be unrelated to your previous problems.
My SS410 16" Ran like a champ with Tula and Silver Bear with a H2 buffer.
I haven't shot any steel cased since I switched to a A2 stock and rifle gas though. Next time I get a chance I think I'll grab a few boxes worth and double check.
OP,
Try this:
1. Clean the rifle completely, use a chamber brush.
2. lube BCG generously. (wet)
3. Install original H buffer
4. Place 1 round of steel cased ammo in a known good magazine and fire. Do this 5-10 different times. Does the BCG lock back each and every time?
5. repeat above with a carbine buffer. Does it lock back each time?
BCM rifles usually ship with an H buffer to run properly with Mil-Spec ammo. EG: M193, M855 etc. If you want to run lower powered ammo you "Might" have to reduce buffer weight to do so.
Also check your magazines for feed lip damage or cracks. Check the Pmags down the rear of the rear spine and under the rear of the feed lip on the spine for cracks. I have had 3 crack and that can cause type 3 malfunctions (double feed).
Good luck and get back to us on your findings.
Darkop
I inspected the mags I used and they look mint. I'm still waiting on a carbine buffer but that should be here anytime now. I will be taking my rifle out tomorrow to do some various tests with different ammo to see if I get any more malfunctions.
I e-mailed BCM about the issues I've been having and they said to send the upper into them and they will inspect and get it running properly free of charge. Is it possible that the lower, magwell, mag catch, etc could be out of spec somehow causing something like this? At this point if it's simply a different buffer that is needed, I don't want to go 2+ weeks without my rifle..
I have one of the EAG BCM uppers and FWIW it won't reliably feed Russian ammo either, and that includes with a carbine buffer. It doesn't cycle fully, and won't consistently strip the new round from the mag.
.
A double feed is a magazine problem. Try borrowing a couple USGI aluminum mags and see how it works.
Make sure the BCG is lubed up well. M193 should function perfect in the gun.
I have heard of problems with switching back and forth between steel and brass without cleaning the chamber. I think Rob_S mentioned this a while back.
If the gun is stock and clean yet malf's with M193, (other than mag related problems), I'd send it back.
But maybe it's just me...
.
When Wolf started going to shit for me (I know, some will say it was always shit, but I was well over 10k rounds in on the stuff and something changed) and I was getting super-stuck cases requiring a rod to unstick as the extractor would jump the rim, anything shot after that sticking would result in stuck cases whether brass or steel.
If, however, I hit the chamber with a brush and some solvent, I could go back to shooting 1k+ rounds of brass without cleaning.
I could easily shoot up to 200 rounds of the bad Wolf at a normal pace (like a match, with downtime between stages) but somewhere between 150 and 200 at an accelerated pace (like a class, with no real downtime) and the stuck case syndrome was a foregone conclusion.
Robb Jensen
02-25-12, 07:49
Many shooters mistake a failure to feed/chamber for short stroking. If your bolt is crushing the casing up near the bottle neck of the casing and the bolt isn't behind the case head then it's probably short stoking or you have a bad magazine.
The cycle of operations of an AR is:
1. Firing
2. Unlocking
3. Extracting
4. Ejecting
5. Cocking
6. Feeding
7. Chambering
8. Locking
To get to the root of the problem you find what it's not doing.
To test for feeding and proper bolt lock back do this: Take 10 mags and load a single round in each mag. On you AR lock the by to the rear manually. Seat the mag in the AR (which only has 1 round in it) and chamber using the bolt catch. Did it chamber and the bolt fully lock? If YES fire the round. If NO try it again with another mag.
If its not locking back every time when you do this the ammo is too weak and you may need a lighter buffer. Russian manufactured ammo is very weak (it's often hardly even SAAMI spec .223 and good ARs are chambered in 5.56mm NATO). You may also have gas leak problem if you have a hobbyist Tier AR.
You sometimes can get a top Tier AR to work with low quality barely SAAMI spec .223 pressure Russian ammo. It's same kind of the tail-chasing you might experience if you have a vehicle which calls for 92/93 octane gasoline and you're using 87 octane and complaining about a loss of performance and fuel mileage. If you want to shoot steel cased ammo in ARs I highly suggest using quality Hornady Steel Match.
I have a 16" DD midlength, lightweight barrel in a BCM upper (I am not sure of the buffer weight, and the weapon is not right next to me as I type)
It eats a steady diet of steel in both competition and drill/class type shooting
for what it is worth
Rattlehead
02-25-12, 09:50
Again, try a carbine buffer.
My 14.5" midlength BCM shoots Wolf and Tula as long as I'm using a carbine buffer.
So I took my BCM out about 20 minutes ago using my H buffer that came installed. I know, I know try the carbine buffer, but I'm still waiting to receive one in the mail. I don't have any extra buffer(s) yet. Anyways, here is what happened:
I loaded several Pmags with one round of Wolf steel casings and started the shooting. Wolf was feeding fine, etc but the bolt would not lock back about 50% of the time. I tested several different magazines and loaded them to various capacities and the results were the same.
Next up - I loaded the Golden Bear hollow points (brass coated, steel cased) ammo that was giving me the problems which prompted me to create this thread in the first place.
Same routine, loaded various Pmags with one round each, some with a couple rounds each. They actually fed and fired FINE now which is crazy to me because I could not get these things to feed from the mag no matter what the first couple of times I fired this rifle. Again though, the bolt would only lock back about 50% of the time on last round.
I then tried some PMC and M193 which all fired and functioned fine, as expected. No issues.
The part that boggles my mind is why can I now fire the Golden Bear that I couldn't before? The first time I was trying the Golden Bear, there was only about 160 rounds through the rifle in total; as of now it's seen about 450-500 rounds down the pipe.
I'm hoping to get out again later in the afternoon or this weekend for some more testing with various ammo types. I'm trying to see if I can reproduce the 'double feed' that I had previously or if that was just a magazine failure/fluke.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? :p
Robb Jensen
02-25-12, 10:51
FYI:
Double feed = two live rounds competing for the chamber. 99% of the time it's a damaged/bad magazine.
Failure to eject = one live round trying to chamber but an empty casing caused an obstruction. Can be caused by too much extractor tension or a gummed up ejector which cannot over power the extractor and push off the empty casing.
Short stroking = BCG not moving far enough for complete ejection, or enough for ejection but not far enough for the bolt to push off the next round correctly from the magazine and feed it into the chamber. Also if magazine is empty the bolt catch cannot stop on the bolt face because th BCG isn't moving far enough rearward. Can be caused weak ammo or a gas leak.
Failure to extract = extractor releases empty casing and usually results in a stuck casing in the chamber. Can be ammo related or bad/weak extractor.
Over cycling = BCG is cycling so fast that the bolt is already moving forward before the magazine can present the next round for feeding and the bolt goes home on an empty chamber or round is crushed without the bolt on the case head. This looks similar to a stoppage caused by short stroking sometimes. On full auto guns this is generally only seen above 1000 rounds per minute.
FYI:
Double feed = two live rounds competing for the chamber. 99% of the time it's a damaged/bad magazine.
This is what happened to me as I mentioned in a previous post. It happened once with I believe the M193.
FYI:
Double feed = two live rounds competing for the chamber. 99% of the time it's a damaged/bad magazine.
Failure to eject = one live round trying to chamber but an empty casing caused an obstruction. Can be caused by too much extractor tension or a gummed up ejector which cannot over power the extractor and push off the empty casing.
Short stroking = BCG not moving far enough for complete ejection, or enough for ejection but not far enough for the bolt to push off the next round correctly from the magazine. Can be weak ammo or a gas leak.
Failure to extract = extractor releases empty casing and usually results in a stuck casing in the chamber. Can be ammo related or bad/weak extractor.
Over cycling = BCG is cycling so fast that the bolt is already moving forward before the magazine can present the next round for feeding and the bolt goes home on an empty chamber or round is crushed without the bolt on the case head. This looks similar to a stoppage caused by short stroking sometimes. On full auto guns this is generally only seen above 1000 rounds per minute.
================================
Robb,
Would the Highlighted part I added below to your Short stroking definition be true also?
Short stroking = BCG not moving far enough for complete ejection, or enough for ejection but not far enough for the bolt to push off the next round correctly from the magazine, or enough for ejection but on the last round, not far enough for the Bolt Catch to grab the Bolt. Can be weak ammo or a gas leak.
.
Robb Jensen
02-25-12, 11:23
Yes it's very true when the magazine is empty. Light caffeine morning for me can you tell?
================================
Robb,
Would the Highlighted part I added below to your Short stroking definition be true also?
Short stroking = BCG not moving far enough for complete ejection, or enough for ejection but not far enough for the bolt to push off the next round correctly from the magazine, or enough for ejection but on the last round, not far enough for the Bolt Catch to grab the Bolt. Can be weak ammo or a gas leak.
.
JackFanToM
02-25-12, 11:44
I have a BCM 16" middy, and I pick my practice ammo by what's the least expensive per round. I have shot Wolf, Brown Bear, Herters, Tulammo, Silver Bear, factory 2nds, and remanufactured....only 1 issue ever (little over 7k through the rifle) and it happened during a succession of mag dumps. My extractor pulled the case lip off, leaving the case in the chamber...Herter's 55gr FMJ (which I find to be their worst ammo...their 62gr FMJ is quite a bit more accurate in my rifle).
So I took my BCM out about 20 minutes ago using my H buffer that came installed. I know, I know try the carbine buffer, but I'm still waiting to receive one in the mail. I don't have any extra buffer(s) yet. Anyways, here is what happened:
I loaded several Pmags with one round of Wolf steel casings and started the shooting. Wolf was feeding fine, etc but the bolt would not lock back about 50% of the time. I tested several different magazines and loaded them to various capacities and the results were the same.
Next up - I loaded the Golden Bear hollow points (brass coated, steel cased) ammo that was giving me the problems which prompted me to create this thread in the first place.
Same routine, loaded various Pmags with one round each, some with a couple rounds each. They actually fed and fired FINE now which is crazy to me because I could not get these things to feed from the mag no matter what the first couple of times I fired this rifle. Again though, the bolt would only lock back about 50% of the time on last round.
I then tried some PMC and M193 which all fired and functioned fine, as expected. No issues.
The part that boggles my mind is why can I now fire the Golden Bear that I couldn't before? The first time I was trying the Golden Bear, there was only about 160 rounds through the rifle in total; as of now it's seen about 450-500 rounds down the pipe.
I'm hoping to get out again later in the afternoon or this weekend for some more testing with various ammo types. I'm trying to see if I can reproduce the 'double feed' that I had previously or if that was just a magazine failure/fluke.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? :p
Did you clean the chamber with a chamber brush and solvent prior to this test?
Darkop
John_Burns
02-25-12, 12:29
I did read over on arfcom (i know..) that perhaps my gun needs to be a little bit more "broken in" and loosened up before firing the steel cased reliably. Any substance to that, or just mumbo jumbo ?
The part that boggles my mind is why can I now fire the Golden Bear that I couldn't before? The first time I was trying the Golden Bear, there was only about 160 rounds through the rifle in total; as of now it's seen about 450-500 rounds down the pipe.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? :p
Some BCG have a pretty heavy phosphate coating and need a few rounds to quit dragging in the upper and smooth out the hammer face and cocking ramp.
Keep it lubed and run it some more. Bet it starts to hum shortly.
If you can still smell anodize burning when you drop the carrier on an empty chamber then it is not broken in yet.
i agree with the "breaking it in" crowd,
i dont considered my rifles broken in until the 500-1000 of FULL powered 5.56 mark. also drown it in lube.
Did you clean the chamber with a chamber brush and solvent prior to this test?
Darkop
I cleaned it out pretty well but I didn't use a chamber brush and solvent, no. I'll probably give it another good cleaning/lube tonight and be sure to get the chamber real nice.
I have a BCM 16" middy, and I pick my practice ammo by what's the least expensive per round. I have shot Wolf, Brown Bear, Herters, Tulammo, Silver Bear, factory 2nds, and remanufactured....only 1 issue ever (little over 7k through the rifle) and it happened during a succession of mag dumps. My extractor pulled the case lip off, leaving the case in the chamber...Herter's 55gr FMJ (which I find to be their worst ammo...their 62gr FMJ is quite a bit more accurate in my rifle).
Are you running an H buffer or standard? Never had a problem with the bolt not locking back on last round?
The rifle has only seen about 200-275 rounds of full power NATO spec'd ammo through it so I'm probably going to run another couple hundred rounds of proper 5.56 and then see if anything has changed.
Honestly, I don't want to send my upper/bcg into BCM if it's just the buffer weight but I feel like it'd be foolish for me not to get a free inspection and what-not.
Plus, I keep hearing "My 16 inch BCM middy shoots steel all day with an H buffer and has no issues" so that makes me think something could possibly be out of spec, or whatever although the only issue I'm having with steel cased now is the bolt not locking back 50% of the time.
This is driving me crazy!! :shout:
edit: again, thank you everybody for your input. this has been a very informative thread with alot of good suggestions and advice. I hope others can find some useful information from this thread as well.
Please humor if you can. Buy one box of Hornady 55gr. or 75gr. Steel TAP and see what happens.
I cleaned it out pretty well but I didn't use a chamber brush and solvent, no. I'll probably give it another good cleaning/lube tonight and be sure to get the chamber real nice.
Are you running an H buffer or standard? Never had a problem with the bolt not locking back on last round?
The rifle has only seen about 200-275 rounds of full power NATO spec'd ammo through it so I'm probably going to run another couple hundred rounds of proper 5.56 and then see if anything has changed.
Honestly, I don't want to send my upper/bcg into BCM if it's just the buffer weight but I feel like it'd be foolish for me not to get a free inspection and what-not.
Plus, I keep hearing "My 16 inch BCM middy shoots steel all day with an H buffer and has no issues" so that makes me think something could possibly be out of spec, or whatever although the only issue I'm having with steel cased now is the bolt not locking back 50% of the time.
This is driving me crazy!! :shout:
edit: again, thank you everybody for your input. this has been a very informative thread with alot of good suggestions and advice. I hope others can find some useful information from this thread as well.
Please humor if you can. Buy one box of Hornady 55gr. or 75gr. Steel TAP and see what happens.
I'll see if I can find any locally but there isn't much of a selection around here, LGS or otherwise.
My Wal-mart sells the usual suspects: .223 Remington and Federal.... and... yeah that's it. The LGS sells Lake City , PMC, and Wolf. Pretty piss poor selection, all things considered.
I'll hunt some down one way or another, though. Here's hoping I'll have my standard buffer tomorrow too so I can finally put this to bed.
Rattlehead
02-26-12, 14:54
I'll see if I can find any locally but there isn't much of a selection around here, LGS or otherwise.
My Wal-mart sells the usual suspects: .223 Remington and Federal.... and... yeah that's it. The LGS sells Lake City , PMC, and Wolf. Pretty piss poor selection, all things considered.
I'll hunt some down one way or another, though. Here's hoping I'll have my standard buffer tomorrow too so I can finally put this to bed.
Order online.
polymorpheous
02-26-12, 15:34
This thread gives me an idea.
I'll see if I can find any locally but there isn't much of a selection around here, LGS or otherwise.
My Wal-mart sells the usual suspects: .223 Remington and Federal.... and... yeah that's it. The LGS sells Lake City , PMC, and Wolf. Pretty piss poor selection, all things considered.
I'll hunt some down one way or another, though. Here's hoping I'll have my standard buffer tomorrow too so I can finally put this to bed.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=TAP75P
C4
I haven't gotten any of the "better" steel cased ammo yet but I did do some shooting yesterday while I was at my brothers house. Before shooting, I swapped my H buffer with a standard buffer and lubed the BCG. I was shooting mainly Wolf steel cased and experienced two malfunctions.
Both of the malfunctions had the bolt closed on the round, about half way in. Over cycling? I'm not sure. The bolt also failed to lock back on an empty magazine some of the time, although it did lock back more often than what it did using an H buffer. I did some testing with one round in the mag/repeat and I'd say it was locking back on an empty mag 75% of the time. (bare in mind this is steel cased, but still...)
The problems for this have been all over the place so at this point I'll be shipping my upper with the bolt carrier group to BCM this weekend. I'm a little disappointed because I did not expect to see this from BCM on what is basically a brand new upper. Yes, I know I should put more 'full power' ammunition through the upper but the main reason for my wanting a 16" over the 14.5" is that I was expecting to shoot all ammo reliably. Either way it has still choked on 5.56 once with the strange double feed so that's more justification for me.
I love BCM's products but booooooo.
Grease Monkey
03-01-12, 09:41
Maybe this is why the original owner sold it???
Cincinnatus
03-01-12, 09:50
All companies have some problems in a product from time to time. BCM has fewer than most; and what's important here is that they stand behind their product. If it's the Upper, I'm sure they'll take care of it.
Maybe this is why the original owner sold it???
Ya think....LOL. that was my first thought. And instead of simply having it fixed he sold his problem off to someone else. No worries though as I'm sure they will get him all straightened out.
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RogerinTPA
03-01-12, 10:01
OK, followups...
my suggestion for the AR in general but especially for running steel-cased ammo is to lube, like to the point of dripping, the BCG.
Next, load one round, fire, and check to see if the bolt locks to the rear. If it does, repeat ten times or so.
Agreed.
Try the Carbine buffer. I have several friends with BCM Middys and they have no issues with steel cased or underpowered ammo using Carbine buffer.
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I have 3 middys (DD LW, Saber Defense and LMT MRP), all have H buffers, all also function with carbine buffers, all function just fine with steel ammo, even in carbine classes, but can't vouch for Golden Bear since I've never shot it.
All companies have some problems in a product from time to time. BCM has fewer than most; and what's important here is that they stand behind their product. If it's the Upper, I'm sure they'll take care of it.
Agreed. If the OP can't isolate and solve the issue, send the upper back. BCM will make it right.
For those saying it's the HPs are doing the deed here, it's not. I shoot Steel 62 gn HPs almost exclusively (well over 30K rounds fired) as I find them to shoot tighter groups, than the rest.
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 10:22
Some observations:
My BCM 16" middie with an A5 recoil system does not like Wolf from anything but about 10 of my well-worn magazines.
A BCM with an A5 in the hands of a very competant shooter in our last class was only getting about 200 to 300 rounds of Wolf down the tube before getting consistent stoppages.
If shooting wolf, my advice is to go with a CAR buffer, as it seems to give the best performance with the low pressure.
Ya think....LOL. that was my first thought. And instead of simply having it fixed he sold his problem off to someone else. No worries though as I'm sure they will get him all straightened out.
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Perhaps. The seller honestly has the most feedback (all positive) I've seen on this forum before. The rifle was basically brand new as described. I could tell this because the brass deflector wasn't even marked up yet. I got a good enough deal on it so even if that is the case, it was still a great deal given BCM makes it right which I'm not doubting at all. They've already sent me a prepaid label for the BCG/upper no questions asked, so everything is on track I suppose.
Useful thread none the less!
If shooting wolf, my advice is to go with a CAR buffer, as it seems to give the best performance with the low pressure.
I have now tried both buffers and while the CAR buffer does lock back more often than-not in comparison to the H buffer; I'm still experiencing issues.
Failure2Stop
03-01-12, 10:45
I have now tried both buffers and while the CAR buffer does lock back more often than-not in comparison to the H buffer; I'm still experiencing issues.
It's what happens when you have a gun that's designed to run on quality ammo.
Might also want to try out several magazines. Like I said, only 10 or so of my 90+ stash work consistently with Wolf in my BCM/A5.
Even with the occasional issues with Wolf, it's good enough to use for what Wolf is good for.
It's what happens when you have a gun that's designed to run on quality ammo.
Might also want to try out several magazines. Like I said, only 10 or so of my 90+ stash work consistently with Wolf in my BCM/A5.
Even with the occasional issues with Wolf, it's good enough to use for what Wolf is good for.
I just have everyone on here telling me their 16" midlength BCM shoots Wolf, etc reliably while mine doesn't. :confused: I do agree that it's not that big of a deal if the Wolf ammo malfunctions here and there because I'm only using it as target ammo. I would like to stock some for long term storage as well but it'd probably be worth the extra couple of dollars to go with something better.
All companies have some problems in a product from time to time. BCM has fewer than most; and what's important here is that they stand behind their product. If it's the Upper, I'm sure they'll take care of it.
Yes they will. BCM products and customer service are TOP SHELF.
...
I just have everyone on here telling me their 16" midlength BCM shoots Wolf, etc reliably while mine doesn't. :confused: I do agree that it's not that big of a deal if the Wolf ammo malfunctions here and there because I'm only using it as target ammo. I would like to stock some for long term storage as well but it'd probably be worth the extra couple of dollars to go with something better.
Something to check while your upper is being checked by BCM.
1. If using USGI/aluminum mags. Check the lower edge of the feed lips for a burr. They are stamped and sometimes the newer ones have a burr that digs into the casing of the top round causing it to drag when chambering. I have taken a little emery cloth and debarred that area on many aluminum mags.
2. When you get your upper back make sure you use a chamber brush, fixed handle rod and solvent to muck out the chamber.
3. Lastly, I have had 2 colt carbines that would not run Wolf 55g when they were new. after about 500-1000 rds of "Break in" they run Wolf or cheap steel cased stuff just fine. I know people will say that a "Properly Built Quality Rifle Doesn't need breaking in but my experience with a few different rifles is different. BCG's and bolts do "Mate" to their respective parts. I run everything I have extremely "WET" (again, in my experience)
Let us know how your rifle runs when you get it back.
Until that day,
Darkop
Something to check while your upper is being checked by BCM.
1. If using USGI/aluminum mags. Check the lower edge of the feed lips for a burr. They are stamped and sometimes the newer ones have a burr that digs into the casing of the top round causing it to drag when chambering. I have taken a little emery cloth and debarred that area on many aluminum mags.
2. When you get your upper back make sure you use a chamber brush, fixed handle rod and solvent to muck out the chamber.
3. Lastly, I have had 2 colt carbines that would not run Wolf 55g when they were new. after about 500-1000 rds of "Break in" they run Wolf or cheap steel cased stuff just fine. I know people will say that a "Properly Built Quality Rifle Doesn't need breaking in but my experience with a few different rifles is different. BCG's and bolts do "Mate" to their respective parts. I run everything I have extremely "WET" (again, in my experience)
Let us know how your rifle runs when you get it back.
Until that day,
Darkop
Thanks for the advice. It could be that it needs a nice break-in with full power 5.56 ammo but I'm going to send it to BCM to be safe. At least when I get it back I'll know for sure that it's 100%. I'm definitely to grab some more of the M193 ammo and hopefully put a few hundred through my rifle when I get it back from BCM. THEN, I'll go ahead and try the steel cased rounds again.
I know "break-in" for a high quality rifle is not a myth. This rifle was not feeding the steel cased ammo AT ALL for my first two range trips. After putting some roundage through it, it now feeds/fires the rounds but the bolt isn't locking back properly. That to me is proof because I had changed nothing for it to suddenly start feeding/firing the steel cased.
I'll resurrect this thread and let you guys know how things turned out when I receive my upper and bolt carrier group back - probably a couple of weeks. I'm so disappointed because my Troy free float rail should be arriving Saturday, after I've shipped the upper out :(
Are you using Wolf Mil-Classic in the camo box??
or the older black box made at the Tula plant??
I have 0 issues with Wolf MC in the camo box..
I have some infrequent issues with TulaAmmo in the black box.. (doesn't alwyas lock the slide back, but runs fine otherwise but soft).
(this is on a BCM 14.5" BFH Middy with Carbine Buffer that I got last November..)
Should run a few 100 rounds of NATO spec brass cased ammo 1st always.. IMHO..
then I use a brass chamber brush and scrub it out..
then I put a few drops of oil in the chamber throat..
then I run my steel cased ammo..
*side note.. also don't mix STEEL and BRASS in the same mag..
*Also if its really cold the steel cases may bind on the PMag polymer lips.. I noticed mine were hard to load and manually unload when it was 29'F the other day here.. (these mags have prior seen over 400 rounds each)
these are IMHO..
Are you using Wolf Mil-Classic in the camo box??
or the older black box made at the Tula plant??
I have 0 issues with Wolf MC in the camo box..
I have some infrequent issues with TulaAmmo in the black box.. (doesn't alwyas lock the slide back, but runs fine otherwise but soft).
(this is on a BCM 14.5" BFH Middy with Carbine Buffer that I got last November..)
Should run a few 100 rounds of NATO spec brass cased ammo 1st always.. IMHO..
then I use a brass chamber brush and scrub it out..
then I put a few drops of oil in the chamber throat..
then I run my steel cased ammo..
*side note.. also don't mix STEEL and BRASS in the same mag..
*Also if its really cold the steel cases may bind on the PMag polymer lips.. I noticed mine were hard to load and manually unload when it was 29'F the other day here.. (these mags have prior seen over 400 rounds each)
these are IMHO..
Yes, it's the camo box Wolf "mil classic". I do live in Maine so it's obviously very cold, but not bad enough to effect firearms.. at least I didn't think.. :confused: most times I've been outside shooting in 25-35F temperatures.
I've pretty much decided that I'm shipping it back. I'm taking the rifle out for one more goodbye-for-now range trip tomorrow and packin' the baby up.
transition2secondary
03-02-12, 15:22
It would be easy to simply read this thread and move on but I do feel compelled to respond to a post made regarding the origin of this upper.
I was the original owner of this upper and sold it to this gentleman through the EE. I have no problem providing the history of this upper if it may help the discussion.
The upper was purchased directly from Bravo Company on 04/09/2011. I matched this upper to a BCM lower I purchased from G&R Tactical (thanks Grant) on 04/11/2011. The lower was shipped with an H buffer.
The upper is a 16" LW mid-length. I originally purchased it because I wanted to build a light weight 16" rifle that I planned to run with iron sights only.
I cleaned and lubed the upper when I received it and took it to the range to zero it and give it a function check; the rifle had 50 rounds down the barrel at that point. I used M193 ammunition and it functioned flawlessly. The next range visit I decided to switch up the ammo and ran another 25 rounds of MK 262 Mod-1 to zero that and shoot some targets out to 200 meters on the irons.
The rifle was cleaned and then it sat in the safe. I decided to switch up to a BCM 14.5 pinned so I sold the upper here.
For the record, the rifle was in pristine condition when sold and it functioned flawlessly for the time I owned it (it literally had 75 rounds total down the barrel). This was not a case of selling off a problem; it was sold to fund another project.
I enjoy this site and rarely post, but felt this might answer some questions that were raised.
It would be easy to simply read this thread and move on but I do feel compelled to respond to a post made regarding the origin of this upper.
I was the original owner of this upper and sold it to this gentleman through the EE. I have no problem providing the history of this upper if it may help the discussion.
The upper was purchased directly from Bravo Company on 04/09/2011. I matched this upper to a BCM lower I purchased from G&R Tactical (thanks Grant) on 04/11/2011. The lower was shipped with an H buffer.
The upper is a 16" LW mid-length. I originally purchased it because I wanted to build a light weight 16" rifle that I planned to run with iron sights only.
I cleaned and lubed the upper when I received it and took it to the range to zero it and give it a function check; the rifle had 50 rounds down the barrel at that point. I used M193 ammunition and it functioned flawlessly. The next range visit I decided to switch up the ammo and ran another 25 rounds of MK 262 Mod-1 to zero that and shoot some targets out to 200 meters on the irons.
The rifle was cleaned and then it sat in the safe. I decided to switch up to a BCM 14.5 pinned so I sold the upper here.
For the record, the rifle was in pristine condition when sold and it functioned flawlessly for the time I owned it (it literally had 75 rounds total down the barrel). This was not a case of selling off a problem; it was sold to fund another project.
I enjoy this site and rarely post, but felt this might answer some questions that were raised.
Thank you for that. It's nice to know that it did come straight from BCM as expected. Again, I never questioned the round count of it because it was very obvious that you never fired it beyond a few rounds. I'm overall very happy with the upper - it has not given me issues when shooting M193 or even .223 brass, just the cheap steel cased shit. I knew some people would throw the "why do you think he sold it?!" out there but that's not my way of thinking.
I believe I got a very good deal on it since everyone else I dealt with on this forum was trying to sell me their heavily used uppers $10 less than retail; meanwhile Transition2Secondary saved me over $100 on a basically new BFH upper that I otherwise wouldn't have spent the extra cash on, plus threw in a set of mint MOE handguards. Regardless, I will be having BCM inspect/service not only the upper that I received in the deal but my BCM BCG that was purchased through Grant at G&R. Anyways, I just wanted to say that I wouldn't hesitate to deal with Transition2Secondary (or Grant) again and he's a stand up dude.https://www.m4carbine.net/images/icons/icon14.gif
So I'm supposed to be receiving my upper/bcg from the UPS tomorrow. That means it will be 6 days for me to receive my equipment back from the time BCM received it. That's pretty impressive since it does include shipping time. Scratch pretty - it's very impressive.
Here is what the most recent e-mail from BCM customers service said:
"We have received, inspected and cleaned up your upper & BCG. You should be good to go now. After some range time, please let us know your results. For ammo, we do recommend Sierra & Black Hills. Here is the tracking information........"
It seems to me they found nothing wrong. They cleaned it up, but I have already done that many times over and it's clearly not the issue. I'm happy with the service although a little disappointed that the issue was not identified.
When I receive my upper back tomorrow, I'll be switching back to running an H buffer rather than the carbine because it did not seem to make much of a difference. The only notable difference was the bolt locking back slightly more often and there was possibly an increase in felt recoil.
I think at this point, after having tried nearly everything and being unable to isolate the issue, I'll be shooting strictly nato spec ammo for a couple of months. I'm going to give the upper ample time to 'break-in' with full power ammunition before trying steel cased again. Hey who knows maybe it'll be chew through cheap ammo when I do receive it.. yeah.. wishful thinking..
So yeah, I pretty much knew deep down that they would not find a fault with the upper or BCG; I just figured why not have peace of mind and maybe get some kind of free BCM goodie in return (hat? mousepad? stickers?:)) !! I understand that some rifles will choke while others of the same exact specs will not. I just wish it made more sense (to me.. ) "buy better ammo" isn't acceptable in the long run... at least, it shouldn't be... :no:
Let me just say this. Take it for what it is worth. When the AR15/M16 was introduced, steel cased ammo was almost strictly an Eastern European thing. They have been making it for years for AK's and PKM's.
But, the AR in my opinion was not designed to function and operate with steel cased ammo. Not saying they won't but some have proven more reliable than others.
My BCM has successfully spit out 2100 rounds of steel cased ammo, all of which was Hornady steel TAP.
I think at this point, after having tried nearly everything and being unable to isolate the issue, I'll be shooting strictly nato spec ammo for a couple of months. I'm going to give the upper ample time to 'break-in' with full power ammunition before trying steel cased again. Hey who knows maybe it'll be chew through cheap ammo when I do receive it.. yeah.. wishful thinking..
So yeah, I pretty much knew deep down that they would not find a fault with the upper or BCG; I just figured why not have peace of mind and maybe get some kind of free BCM goodie in return (hat? mousepad? stickers?:)) !! I understand that some rifles will choke while others of the same exact specs will not. I just wish it made more sense (to me.. ) "buy better ammo" isn't acceptable in the long run... at least, it shouldn't be... :no:
I really wish you'd give the Wolf a try again with the carbine buffer to see if BCM did something (possibly something not detailed in the letter?) that remedied the problem. I am having the same issue that you are - relatively new BCM 14.5" lightweight upper that feeds IMI 193 flawlessly, but has constant failure to feed malfunctions with Wolf WPA that sound identical to yours. I run a carbine buffer exclusively with this setup, and feel that I should be able to fire Wolf. I'm going to follow in your footsteps and contact BCM if they did something that fixed your issue.
FWIW, I run Silver Bear 62gr HP through my BCM carbine w/ PMAGs without any hiccups. To me, a quality firearm isn't designed to only shoot quality ammo. A quality firearm should be able to chew up and spit out damn near anything and in my experience that has been the case.
Thay don't always tell you what they did to service your gun. Give 'em a chance and run it when it comes back. You might be suprised. :)
A while back I took two new BCM uppers to the range. One 20" & one 16" middy. I lubed up the bolt assy on the 16" with Slip 2000. The 20" was dry (forgot to lube it). The 16" ran Wolf 100%. The 20" choked on Wolf every third or so round. Next time out I lubed the 20" well & no problems cycling Wolf. My $.02.
Try the Carbine buffer. I have several friends with BCM Middys and they have no issues with steel cased or underpowered ammo using Carbine buffer.
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That has been my experience as well.
To me, a quality firearm isn't designed to only shoot quality ammo. A quality firearm should be able to chew up and spit out damn near anything and in my experience that has been the case.
If quality is adherence to requirements, how is it not a quality firearm if it doesn't function well with ammunition it wasn't designed for? Keep in mind that the M16 FOW does not have an adjustable gas system to ensure reliable function with a multitude of different ammunition types. This is where commercial "overgassed" barrels/gas port sizing comes from (Is it "overgassed" or of poor quality for not meeting TDP specs if it was intended to run lower pressure ammunition?) . Your choice in upper receiver and buffer selection should absolutely be driven by the ammunition that you choose to fire... until a hard use adjustable gas system is designed and introduced for the platform. Somebody work on that; Noveske, you're halfway there...
I've been working so I have not had the chance to take the rifle out yet but I will be for sure sometime this week. I'll probably try a few boxes of Wolff and see if I can replicate any of my previous malfunctions but otherwise I don't plan to shoot it too much, least not for a while.
A while back I took two new BCM uppers to the range. One 20" & one 16" middy. I lubed up the bolt assy on the 16" with Slip 2000. The 20" was dry (forgot to lube it). The 16" ran Wolf 100%. The 20" choked on Wolf every third or so round. Next time out I lubed the 20" well & no problems cycling Wolf. My $.02.
I'll definitely keep this in mind. I generally do keep it pretty well lubed but I'm going to soak it the next time I'm taking it out.
I really wish you'd give the Wolf a try again with the carbine buffer to see if BCM did something (possibly something not detailed in the letter?) that remedied the problem. I am having the same issue that you are - relatively new BCM 14.5" lightweight upper that feeds IMI 193 flawlessly, but has constant failure to feed malfunctions with Wolf WPA that sound identical to yours. I run a carbine buffer exclusively with this setup, and feel that I should be able to fire Wolf. I'm going to follow in your footsteps and contact BCM if they did something that fixed your issue.
I'll at least try that carbine buffer again and let you know what happens. The thing is, it's expected out of yours because 14.5" uppers are notorious for this problem but 16" mid-length uppers should not have this issue; at least not to this extent.
So I finally got the chance to take my rifle out again yesterday for a few minutes. First time since I received it back from BCM.... and... well.. Same old shit.
First magazine was American Eagle 223 brass. About 10 rounds in, it went click. I pulled the trigger again and it went bang. Light primer strike? Who knows. I'm not discounting anything with this rifle, at this point.
Second magazine was the same 223 - functioned fine.
Third magazine I loaded up the Wolf steel casing. Within about 5 rounds, I suffered the same malfunction that's been plaguing me since I assembled this carbine. The round makes it about half way before the BCG slammed closed on it. I cleared this malfunction by hitting the back of my stock and manipulating the charging handle. There was obviously visible dents on the round from the BCG. The bolt did not lock back after emptying this magazine.
Afterwards, I did some testing with the 1 round in each mag to see if the bolt would lock back. It didn't lock back once the whole time when shooting steel cased.
I had a standard carbine buffer in the whole time and I lubed my upper/bcg generously before heading out and added a bit more lube right before I loaded the Wolf ammo.
I have e-mailed BCM about this. I'm not particularly happy to see people with identical rifles firing the same exact ammo without issue; meanwhile I encounter on average 1-2 malfunctions per magazine.
We'll see what happens tomorrow - I'll be shooting strictly XM193 and if that malfunctions again then I'm officially ****ed.
Sounds like your simply doesn't like steel cased ammo.....
Your choice now is to keep it and stick to better ammo or replace it.
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Sounds like your simply doesn't like steel cased ammo.....
Your choice now is to keep it and stick to better ammo or replace it.
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Evidently, but the big question is why is mine the only 16" Mid-length BCM in existence that consistently chokes on it? This isn't normal. If I had a 14.5" then I'd understand but that's not the case. At this point I know there is nothing else that can be done but it'll be interesting to see how BCM responds this time around.
You're not alone ...I know if others. I also know of a few Colt, DD, LMT, etc that won't reliably digest steel cased ammo. I find it to be more of a case by case kinda thing that isn't brand specific.
You could most likely replace it with another BCM upper of the exact configuration and have no issues at all. Like I said some eat it while others choke.
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I don't know how Wolf compares to Tula, but my BCM 14.5 middy ran 40 rounds of Tula a friend gave me this past week perfectly fine. Standard spring, H buffer, A2X. The majority of those 40 rounds were in transition drills, and it locked back every time.
Try running your gun with a good amount of lube.
I read thru most of the thread and can say that in my experience shooting AR's year around in MI that temp. can adversely affect functioning with Wolf and other steel case ammo.
My M4 will not reliably run Wolf below 30 degrees, above that it's fine.
When shooting steel many factors influence whether the gun runs or not, I personally have switched to mostly Federal brass stuff just to avoid the headaches.
You may very well find your gun may never run steel or it may after a period of time.
BCM clearly tunes the gas system for good ammo and this coupled with variations of temp, lube, tightness of new gun, various buffers, how tightly you hold the rifle to your shoulder all have an impact on whether steel will run. In the end the gas port may erode a couple extra thousandths and boom it will run steel when it's 70 degrees outside, the sun is shining and the trees are dripping with beer.
You have to decide how much effort you want to put into making it run steel, if I wasn't heavily invested in steel, say 5 to 10k, I'd run the good stuff and call it good.
In the end it's your call and as always YMMV.
One other thought, if it's not locking back 50% of the time, clearly there is an energy issue, either insufficient gas for whatever reason or something is robbing the energy thru friction or something binding in the system.
I recently assmebled an upper that had a slighty off center gas tube that was binding the BCG. I might suugest you pull the CH and the bolt and make sure the BC moves smoothly in the upper and over the gas tube.
So I finally got the chance to take my rifle out again yesterday for a few minutes. First time since I received it back from BCM.... and... well.. Same old shit.
First magazine was American Eagle 223 brass. About 10 rounds in, it went click. I pulled the trigger again and it went bang. Light primer strike? Who knows. I'm not discounting anything with this rifle, at this point.
Second magazine was the same 223 - functioned fine.
Third magazine I loaded up the Wolf steel casing. Within about 5 rounds, I suffered the same malfunction that's been plaguing me since I assembled this carbine. The round makes it about half way before the BCG slammed closed on it. I cleared this malfunction by hitting the back of my stock and manipulating the charging handle. There was obviously visible dents on the round from the BCG. The bolt did not lock back after emptying this magazine.
Afterwards, I did some testing with the 1 round in each mag to see if the bolt would lock back. It didn't lock back once the whole time when shooting steel cased.
I had a standard carbine buffer in the whole time and I lubed my upper/bcg generously before heading out and added a bit more lube right before I loaded the Wolf ammo.
I have e-mailed BCM about this. I'm not particularly happy to see people with identical rifles firing the same exact ammo without issue; meanwhile I encounter on average 1-2 malfunctions per magazine.
We'll see what happens tomorrow - I'll be shooting strictly XM193 and if that malfunctions again then I'm officially ****ed.
Question, when BCM sent you the gun back, did they state that it ran fine?
C4
You're not alone ...I know if others. I also know of a few Colt, DD, LMT, etc that won't reliably digest steel cased ammo. I find it to be more of a case by case kinda thing that isn't brand specific.
You could most likely replace it with another BCM upper of the exact configuration and have no issues at all. Like I said some eat it while others choke.
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Correct. Lots of guns don't like steel cased, comm block ammo (AKA CRAP). Some companies (like LMT) specifically state that their guns are setup to work best with M855. That way, when the end user complains about short stroking, they can point to this fact.
C4
Correct. Lots of guns don't like steel cased, comm block ammo (AKA CRAP). Some companies (like LMT) specifically state that their guns are setup to work best with M855. That way, when the end user complains about short stroking, they can point to this fact.
C4
I think that's a good policy to have to keep people from bitching and moaning because they don't take into account that the "mil-spec" tier 1 guns are made to function reliably specifically with M855 and other NATO pressure 5.56 ammunition. If people want to shoot lower pressured ammo reliably they might be better served with a gun that's considered "over-gassed" since it was intended to run reliably with a wider selection of ammo. A midlength gun with a smaller sized gas port tuned to work with M855 is probably not a good choice for the steel cased .223 Russian ammo shooter. Define your requirements before you buy folks.
I think that's a good policy to have to keep people from bitching and moaning because they don't take into account that the "mil-spec" tier 1 guns are made to function reliably specifically with M855 and other NATO pressure 5.56 ammunition. If people want to shoot lower pressured ammo reliably they might be better served with a gun that's considered "over-gassed" since it was intended to run reliably with a wider selection of ammo. A midlength gun with a smaller sized gas port tuned to work with M855 is probably not a good choice for the steel cased .223 Russian ammo shooter. Define your requirements before you buy folks.
Again, its a case by case thing. I know plenty of tier 1 Middys that gobble up steel cased ammo like its going outta style.
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NavyDavy55
03-26-12, 18:01
I have a BCM Standard 16" Mid Length (LIGHT WEIGHT) upper receiver group on an Aero Precision lower, and it feeds Silver Bear 62gr hollow points all day.
I have a 16" carbine and a 16" middy. The carbine will eat Tula with an H2 buffer all day long. In fact it will throw the steel into a dinner plate sized pile at about 4 o'clock. Brass goes to 2-3 o'clock. The middy sometimes has trouble with Tula with a car buffer. Has anyone else noticed the carbine gas system is more reliable with a wider variety of ammo or is it just a case by case basis?
I have a 16" carbine and a 16" middy. The carbine will eat Tula with an H2 buffer all day long. In fact it will throw the steel into a dinner plate sized pile at about 4 o'clock. Brass goes to 2-3 o'clock. The middy sometimes has trouble with Tula with a car buffer. Has anyone else noticed the carbine gas system is more reliable with a wider variety of ammo or is it just a case by case basis?
I think that it stands to reason that the higher pressure carbine gas system is probably more forgiving of low pressured ammo at the expense of probably cycling faster with the higher pressure stuff. Or at least... it does in my mind.
Question, when BCM sent you the gun back, did they state that it ran fine?
C4
They didn't say for sure either way. The e-mail said something along the lines of "We inspected the upper/bcg and gave it a thorough cleaning; you should be all set. Let us know the results when you get to the range again". I believe I quoted the actual e-mail a page or so ago.
I did e-mail BCM back about the issue just to see what they have to say regarding it. If it chokes on steel cased here and there it's not a big deal to me but at this point I've experienced at least some sort of malfunction with every type of ammo I've used yet including XM193, Steel cased 223, Brass cased 223 so that has me a bit worried. Again, I'll (hopefully) know more when I put a few hundred rounds of 5.56 through it in the next day or so.
They didn't say for sure either way. The e-mail said something along the lines of "We inspected the upper/bcg and gave it a thorough cleaning; you should be all set. Let us know the results when you get to the range again". I believe I quoted the actual e-mail a page or so ago.
I did e-mail BCM back about the issue just to see what they have to say regarding it. If it chokes on steel cased here and there it's not a big deal to me but at this point I've experienced at least some sort of malfunction with every type of ammo I've used yet including XM193, Steel cased 223, Brass cased 223 so that has me a bit worried. Again, I'll (hopefully) know more when I put a few hundred rounds of 5.56 through it in the next day or so.
I don't remember which type of Magazines you are using but mark them. Then completely clean the chamber and BCG "AGAIN" with bore solvent and a chamber brush. Lube BCG "WET" with any of the better lubes. Use NATO spec ammo and specifically document any and all malfunctions. Take a camera, take pictures of the stoppages.
Then get back to us after your range session.
Until that day,
Darkop
constructor
03-27-12, 01:07
I think that's a good policy to have to keep people from bitching and moaning because they don't take into account that the "mil-spec" tier 1 guns are made to function reliably specifically with M855 and other NATO pressure 5.56 ammunition. If people want to shoot lower pressured ammo reliably they might be better served with a gun that's considered "over-gassed" since it was intended to run reliably with a wider selection of ammo. A midlength gun with a smaller sized gas port tuned to work with M855 is probably not a good choice for the steel cased .223 Russian ammo shooter. Define your requirements before you buy folks.
Agree.
The rifle should be tuned to the ammo you plan to run.
A rig setup to run 58000psi M193 or 855 loads may not run with 42000 psi Tula(SWAG). If a rifle is setup with a H2 buffer and Tactical Spring (red) and is ported to run with M193 it may need a plain carbine spring and buffer to cycle with Tula. Or if you can you could open the port on the barrel a few thou. like a #51 or .067 instead of the normal .062
On a rifle used for 3 gun or carbine courses I like to set it up with a H2 and Red spring and then port it to work with the load I normally use that way when it gets hot and dirty the extra force of the red spring and weight of the H2 keeps things moving even though it is hot and dirty.
Just a thought, have you tried having anouther shooter take a turn shooting you rifle using the steel case ammo? I ask because of the different shooting stances people have and shouldering, plus have you noticed any signs of gas leakage at the front port area or the gas key on the bolt carrier? Look for any UNUSUAL signs of wearing in the inside of the upper receiver as if something may be a binding point. Do you know any other AR shooters that would lend you their BCG and a head spacing gauge so that you may try your upper with a different bcg?
A side note, I am waiting for my new build upper to arrive, it is a DD light weight 16" middy and the bcg I chose is a fail zero nib (nickel borate) that I hope will allow the digesting of ALL ammo types as you were hoping for (for the same reasoning), your thread has kept me in suspense other than the ideas I have posted. I have many other AR rifles but have never tried steel cased before but I am getting ready to start.
One rifle I have I chose a 5.45x39 upper setup to take advantage of super cheap shooting... that is a success story all by itself. Good luck, Savage
Not likely in a BCM upper.
Why not? No slam to them but errors get out. We had more than one short chambered Colt.
polymorpheous
03-27-12, 17:24
Why not? No slam to them but errors get out. We had more than one short chambered Colt.
I wrote not likely.
Not never happened.
OP, have you considered that you may have a bad lot from the ammo manufacturer? Do you have a friend with a known good, properly ported, 16" midlength, preferably another BCM? I'd be curious how the ammo would run in another gun as similar as possible to yours. Russian ammo isn't exactly the most consistent from lot to lot. If it runs well on lower powered brass .223, I would be very suspicious of the ammo.
So I finally got the chance to take my rifle out again yesterday for a few minutes. First time since I received it back from BCM.... and... well.. Same old shit.
First magazine was American Eagle 223 brass. About 10 rounds in, it went click. I pulled the trigger again and it went bang. Light primer strike? Who knows. I'm not discounting anything with this rifle, at this point.
Second magazine was the same 223 - functioned fine.
Third magazine I loaded up the Wolf steel casing. Within about 5 rounds, I suffered the same malfunction that's been plaguing me since I assembled this carbine. The round makes it about half way before the BCG slammed closed on it. I cleared this malfunction by hitting the back of my stock and manipulating the charging handle. There was obviously visible dents on the round from the BCG. The bolt did not lock back after emptying this magazine.
Afterwards, I did some testing with the 1 round in each mag to see if the bolt would lock back. It didn't lock back once the whole time when shooting steel cased.
I had a standard carbine buffer in the whole time and I lubed my upper/bcg generously before heading out and added a bit more lube right before I loaded the Wolf ammo.
I have e-mailed BCM about this. I'm not particularly happy to see people with identical rifles firing the same exact ammo without issue; meanwhile I encounter on average 1-2 malfunctions per magazine.
We'll see what happens tomorrow - I'll be shooting strictly XM193 and if that malfunctions again then I'm officially ****ed.
If I understand this correctly, it sounds like you're switching back and forth between brass and steel without cleaning the chamber. I thought this was a no-no.
I'm also curious what action spring you have in the rifle. Everyone keeps talking about the buffer, but couldn't the spring play a part here as well?
If I understand this correctly, it sounds like you're switching back and forth between brass and steel without cleaning the chamber. I thought this was a no-no.
I'm also curious what action spring you have in the rifle. Everyone keeps talking about the buffer, but couldn't the spring play a part here as well?
It is a no no.
Spring does play a part and if the spring is anything OTHER than a standard USGI SS spring, that could be the cause.
C4
Why not just stop using the steel cased ammo? And just feed it M193?
Are the savings of the steel worth the trouble?
Buy once cry once?
Honest question, not trying to be a dick. :confused:
I have only had my 6920 for about four months and have already spent more on M193 than I did on the rifle, that kinda sucks. But it has had zero malfunctions.
But we work for a living, when you finally have free time and choose to spend it shooting, and you can't, how much is that time worth to you?
I had a brand new BCM 16" middy out yesterday, BCM full auto BCG, standard carbine buffer and spring.
Deliberately ran Tula 62gr thru it first, followed by brass case. No problems.
I have the Tula as I practice close range (2-50 yard) too. No need to waste $ on more accurate ammo for that.
H
If I understand this correctly, it sounds like you're switching back and forth between brass and steel without cleaning the chamber. I thought this was a no-no.
I'm also curious what action spring you have in the rifle. Everyone keeps talking about the buffer, but couldn't the spring play a part here as well?
I have not done it lately without cleaning in between. I'm using a standard USGI spring that came with my BCM lower.
So today I made it out again today for some more range time. I gave it a real thorough cleaning first and then lubed the bcg, etc dripping wet basically. I put 200 rounds of Prvi 5.56 M193 through it using an H buffer. Everything went very nice and smooth without any malfunctions up until my last magazine; it failed to lock back after the last round. This really concerns me as it should be full power ammo.
I will be getting a bit more range time in on Friday and I plan to do alot of 1 round mag loads with both 223/5.56 to see if I can replicate it and how many times.
polymorpheous
03-28-12, 22:39
I have not done it lately without cleaning in between. I'm using a standard USGI spring that came with my BCM lower.
So today I made it out again today for some more range time. I gave it a real thorough cleaning first and then lubed the bcg, etc dripping wet basically. I put 200 rounds of Prvi 5.56 M193 through it using an H buffer. Everything went very nice and smooth without any malfunctions up until my last magazine; it failed to lock back after the last round. This really concerns me as it should be full power ammo.
I will be getting a bit more range time in on Friday and I plan to do alot of 1 round mag loads with both 223/5.56 to see if I can replicate it and how many times.
Have you marked your magazines?
Do you know if you are having problems locking back on empty with 5.56 pressure ammo with all magazines or just one?
Have you marked your magazines?
Do you know if you are having problems locking back on empty with 5.56 pressure ammo with all magazines or just one?
Yes I mark my magazines. So far I have not seen any patterns that would lead me to believe I have a bad mag but I will work to eliminate this possibility next range trip.
I cannot say for certain though because this is the first time I've noticed it not locking back on 5.56 although it's not the first malfunction I've had when using M193 in this rifle; I've had at least three.
First time I took the rifle out after mating upper/lower, it jammed up on Lake City M193 but it was my buddy shooting. He's new to firearms so I assumed it was a user error when I was not paying attention. However, looking back, I believe it was a short stroke. Second malfunction with M193 was a couple of days later, it was a double feed with two live rounds fighting for the chamber. I assumed this was a fluke magazine failure or improper loading - now I'm not so sure.
Also, BCM e-mailed me back implying that it's my ammo and asking me to try the upper with some Sierra or Blackhills then get back to them. Since when is Lake City or Prvi 5.56 not good enough??!
Edit: So I just got another e-mail back from BCM because I let them know about the bolt not locking back on the 5.56. As usual, they claim it's the ammo.
Failing to lock back can also be an issue with the bolt catch in the lower.
First with the bolt forward, put an empty mag in and then pull the CH handle, does it lock open, pending the result of this test, then remove the upper and inspected the bolt cacth function?
Failing to lock back can also be an issue with the bolt catch in the lower.
First with the bolt forward, put an empty mag in and then pull the CH handle, does it lock open, pending the result of this test, then remove the upper and inspected the bolt cacth function?
It locks back fine when I insert an empty mag. Once I get home from work this evening, I will be taking a real good look at the bolt catch and buffer tube.
Just a thought, have you tried having anouther shooter take a turn shooting you rifle using the steel case ammo? I ask because of the different shooting stances people have and shouldering, plus have you noticed any signs of gas leakage at the front port area or the gas key on the bolt carrier?
I find this a bit interesting because when it failed to lock back on the last round yesterday it was my buddy shooting. Long story short, his arm was fractured awhile back and it has essentially healed "crooked". It looks like a T-Rex arm now if you know what I mean. Because of this his stance is laughable. I kept having to adjust the stock into his shoulder pocket for him, otherwise it was flopping up by practically his neck! Could something like that cause the bolt to not lock back when shooting good Prvi M193 ammo? I'm just tryin' to cover all my bases here.
The fact that BCM has already inspected the upper/bcg tells me that it'd likely have to be either A) They didn't do a very good inspection or B) Something on my lower such as the bolt catch or buffer tube out of spec.
hmmmmm...
A poor hold on the rifle could indeed cause it not to lock back, basically what happens is the energy that is normally harnessed to drive the bolt carrier to the rear is consumed by the rearward motion of the complete rifle, kinda like limp wristing a glock only writ large.
It locks back fine when I insert an empty mag. Once I get home from work this evening, I will be taking a real good look at the bolt catch and buffer tube.
I find this a bit interesting because when it failed to lock back on the last round yesterday it was my buddy shooting. Long story short, his arm was fractured awhile back and it has essentially healed "crooked". It looks like a T-Rex arm now if you know what I mean. Because of this his stance is laughable. I kept having to adjust the stock into his shoulder pocket for him, otherwise it was flopping up by practically his neck! Could something like that cause the bolt to not lock back when shooting good Prvi M193 ammo? I'm just tryin' to cover all my bases here.
The fact that BCM has already inspected the upper/bcg tells me that it'd likely have to be either A) They didn't do a very good inspection or B) Something on my lower such as the bolt catch or buffer tube out of spec.
hmmmmm...
Short answer is yes. I took a buddy shooting last year and the gun kept short stroking when he was shooting it. Ran fine when I was on the gun. His stance was bad and he was getting rocked back on his heels while shooting. Straightened him out and had him lean into it for a more stable stance & the problem went away.
trlcavscout
04-01-12, 14:50
Today me and a buddy took out my new unfired BCM 14.5" and his unfired 16" BCM both with good lowers, H buffers and all. We purposely fired some Tula ammo out of new guns before running good ammo just to see if it would run. It was like 70 degress and very dry. We used Pmags/HK steel mags/Troy battle mags/alum GI mags mixed. Firing single round loaded mags, slow fire, bursts, and rapid fire both BCM's and an R guns setup never failed. It was even grouping tight. After that we shot Fed 55gr and Fed 855 with no problems. I have never shot the steel case stuff I just wanted to see if it would run before buying a couple cases for back up. So I can't answer the question about it being normal since this was my first try but I have to say it worked in 2 good AR's and a mediocre AR today.
*Both of us bought the ammo from WM at different stores/different lots.
*I lubed both guns, mine dripping and his normal.
*several different mags.
*I was Army he was Marines (we both have a lot of shooting experience in and out of the military)
*I will buy some for cheap plinking in case the good stuff gets hard to find this year
Standbanger
04-01-12, 18:46
No Solution ?? or problem not identified yet ??
Lube? Get it wet, try a carbine buffer, get a standard carbine spring.
Shoulderthinggoesup
04-03-12, 22:46
Sorry, not to be a dick, since your advice is sound and you mean well.... but read the whole thread before posting. There are about 25 posts recomending lube,buffers, and springs clogging up this thread because people are just firing from the hip, so to speak.. All this has been tried.
It sounds like either the port is on the small side, or.. well... dunno.
just for shits and giggles you might try another bcg. maybe somthing there is off spec. BCM is awesome, but shit happens and I doubt they calipered everything when you sent it in.
I feel your pain btw. Just went through similar with a s&w bodyguard 380 (constant light strikes). 6 months later and 2 trips to sw...I finally get a new replacement. Its getting sold with the tags on.
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maddawg5777
04-04-12, 10:51
Maybe my upper is weird but heres my exp. with tula and a bcm 14.5 middy. The rifle is a spikes lower with DD lpk, Bcm 14.5 middy upper and BCG.
I started with a car buffer after reading how heavy buffers were causing short stroking. I went out and took an assortment of ammo just to see what it would run. I started out with some tula crap from walmart just to see if it would cycle. Sure enough it would feed a few rounds then short stroke. I thought ok no biggie just use better ammo. I shot the rest of the day with m193 and PMC with no issues.
After deciding to only use decent ammo I went on a search for a H buffer but the only one in town was the spikes st-2. I wasn't really a fan but said whatever Ill give it a shot.
Next time I was out (with the st-2 installed) I still had some tula in a mag so i decided to dump it. Low and behold not a single short stroke. My buddy had some wolf and bear and ran that through as well with out a hiccup.
I normally only run m193 or m855 through my rifle but has anyone else seen where a heavy buffer fixed short stroking with crap ammo? or am I just weird lol? I didn't do anything different between the range trips and I didn't even clean the rifle between since I only had gone through 200 rounds the first trip, just a re lube and go.
Maybe my upper is weird but heres my exp. with tula and a bcm 14.5 middy. The rifle is a spikes lower with DD lpk, Bcm 14.5 middy upper and BCG.
I started with a car buffer after reading how heavy buffers were causing short stroking. I went out and took an assortment of ammo just to see what it would run. I started out with some tula crap from walmart just to see if it would cycle. Sure enough it would feed a few rounds then short stroke. I thought ok no biggie just use better ammo. I shot the rest of the day with m193 and PMC with no issues.
After deciding to only use decent ammo I went on a search for a H buffer but the only one in town was the spikes st-2. I wasn't really a fan but said whatever Ill give it a shot.
Next time I was out (with the st-2 installed) I still had some tula in a mag so i decided to dump it. Low and behold not a single short stroke. My buddy had some wolf and bear and ran that through as well with out a hiccup.
I normally only run m193 or m855 through my rifle but has anyone else seen where a heavy buffer fixed short stroking with crap ammo? or am I just weird lol? I didn't do anything different between the range trips and I didn't even clean the rifle between since I only had gone through 200 rounds the first trip, just a re lube and go.
"Bolt Bounce" (high bolt speed) can be confused as short stroking. A heavier buffer can correct this problem. This is why it is a good idea to load 1 round in a known good magazine and fire to see if the bolt locks back on empty (I do this 10 times).
Every time I get or build a new AR type rifle I try different buffers. I run the heaviest buffer that will reliably cycle with the ammo I'm using when shooting off shoulder. e.g.: shot like a pistol W/O shouldering the stock. I keep a full selection of buffers from Carbine to "X" then replace the one I use on the next parts order.
Until that day,
Darkop
Maybe my upper is weird but heres my exp. with tula and a bcm 14.5 middy. The rifle is a spikes lower with DD lpk, Bcm 14.5 middy upper and BCG.
I started with a car buffer after reading how heavy buffers were causing short stroking. I went out and took an assortment of ammo just to see what it would run. I started out with some tula crap from walmart just to see if it would cycle. Sure enough it would feed a few rounds then short stroke. I thought ok no biggie just use better ammo. I shot the rest of the day with m193 and PMC with no issues.
After deciding to only use decent ammo I went on a search for a H buffer but the only one in town was the spikes st-2. I wasn't really a fan but said whatever Ill give it a shot.
Next time I was out (with the st-2 installed) I still had some tula in a mag so i decided to dump it. Low and behold not a single short stroke. My buddy had some wolf and bear and ran that through as well with out a hiccup.
I normally only run m193 or m855 through my rifle but has anyone else seen where a heavy buffer fixed short stroking with crap ammo? or am I just weird lol? I didn't do anything different between the range trips and I didn't even clean the rifle between since I only had gone through 200 rounds the first trip, just a re lube and go.
If your upper was new & unfired on the first trip, I would attribute your experience to break in of the upper & BCG.
maddawg5777
04-04-12, 15:39
Thanks for the input. Didn't really think a 14.5 middy with weak ammo would have bolt bounce, but you never know. I have over 1200 rounds through it now and rarely see issues with weak/steel case stuff, but its not the majority of what I shoot.
Just a little update:
I've been lubing the shit out of my BCG with Slip 2000 EWL-30 and I've got to say, it's the best lube I've ever used and I feel like my guns are running much smoother; especially since I was using Remoil (barf). I'm not getting my hopes up yet but I will be trying steel cased again pretty soon. We'll see what happens then but again, no malfunctions in the past few hundred rounds of random 223/223 reloads/5.56 and my bolt has been locking back pretty much 100% of the time lately as well
Again, not getting my hopes up... but... things are starting to look a bit better... see what happens 1000 rds down the road...
PS I'd recommend the EWL-30 over standard Slip2000 any day. Love it.. best $12 I've ever spent!! :dance3:
TacticalSledgehammer
04-05-12, 23:33
Sounds like you got a dud. Send it back. I feel your frustration. I wouldn't keep it without it being able to shoot steel cased ammo.
Just curious, but have you tried the Hornady steel as recommened by iraqgunz, or the black hills etc recommended by bcm? Maybe your BCM just has an expensive and refined palate like my wife.
Just curious, but have you tried the Hornady steel as recommened by iraqgunz, or the black hills etc recommended by bcm? Maybe your BCM just has an expensive and refined palate like my wife.
Honestly, no. I want to but I can't find them locally so I'll have to order online; possibly from Grant. I intend to real soon though so I'll let you know how that goes. Black Hills, though, is too expensive for me regardless. I should not have to put the absolute most expensive ammo through my rifle so I've pretty much ignored that request.
Either way, it seems as though my rifle is getting better/more reliable at feeding the steel cased as I put more rounds through it and keep it extra wet. I'll keep posted on what happens and if I am still having trouble with it locking back, etc.
If I understand this correctly, it sounds like you're switching back and forth between brass and steel without cleaning the chamber. I thought this was a no-no.
I do this frequently, going from and to Steel and Brass, on my DDM4 without any issues.
FWIW...
New BCM 16" Mid-Length Upper Assy with Hammer Forged barrel.
New BCM Blemished Lower assy.
New BCM Auto BCG.
New PMags and BCM GI Aluminum Mags.
Slip 2000 EWL applied to all parts and to the bolt dripping wet. I kept bolt wet with 4 or 5 applications.
Shot the following in this order in a couple of hours:
270 Rounds - Federal American Eagle .223 55g FMJ (8 Pmags + 1 GI) = Perfect
300 Rounds - PMC Bronze .223 55g FMJ (9 Pmags + 1 GI)= Perfect
40 Rounds - Silver Bear .223 62g HP (2 Pmags) = Perfect
60 Rounds - Wolf WPA Camo Box 62g HP (2 Pmags) = Perfect
210 Rounds - Wolf WPA Camo Box .223 55g FMJ (7 Pmags) = Perfect
40 Rounds - Tula 55g FMJ (2 Pmags) = Perfect
30 Rounds - Federal Am. Eagle 55g FMJ (1 Pmag) = Perfect
Summary -
600 Rounds Brass + 350 Rounds Steel = 950 Rounds = Perfect
I consider this a good start and I'm encouraged by the reliability. I was pleased with the performance of the steel after almost 600 rounds of brass. Likewise, I was happy to see the last Pmag of Fed A.E. brass fire off after 900 rounds of brass & steel.
With anything new which is mechanical, one can typically expect a period of break-in where parts will "smooth" to one another. Some of the best advice I have seen was to keep the bolt wet with a quality lube and first fire known quality brass to facilitate this break-in. Seems to have worked for me. Another happy member who has benefited from this site and other more knowledgeable members advice. :thank_you2:
Quote from OP: "Either way, it seems as though my rifle is getting better/more reliable at feeding the steel cased as I put more rounds through it and keep it extra wet. I'll keep posted on what happens and if I am still having trouble with it locking back, etc."
dj - I'm hoping your on your way to finding a solution. I think you're on the right track. Perhaps your's will just take a little more "smoothing out. Like you, I am impressed with the quality of the Slip 2000 EWL. Good luck on your progress.
I should not have to put the absolute most expensive ammo through my rifle so I've pretty much ignored that request.
I agree, I was thnking along the lines of determining whether it was purely an ammo issue. Perhaps bringing you a little closer to a solution.
I do this frequently, going from and to Steel and Brass, on my DDM4 without any issues.
This may work just fine for low volume shooting, where it runs into issues is, when you shoot the rifle till it's hot and then leave a steel or brass case in the chamber for a bit.
Try this drill some time with a dirty rifle, load 3 mags, 2 brass and 1 steel, dump the brass fairly quickly, to get it hot then load the steel mag and dump half of it, then set the rifle aside for a 1/2 hour or so, then fire the steel case in the chamber, you will most likely have a stuck case at this point. IF you don't I'd be impressed.
I agree, I was thnking along the lines of determining whether it was purely an ammo issue. Perhaps bringing you a little closer to a solution.
Right. Yeah so far it's really looking like my rifle needs more break-in with full power NATO spec 5.56. I can shoot shitty steel cased now but I do get an occasional malfunction with it. The malfunctions have gotten fewer and further between as I put more rounds through the upper.
I actually just purchased 500 rds of Wolf in an ammo can from SportsmanGuide for $114 shipped; basically to save for a rainy day, especially as ammo prices climb.... so yeah..... I wouldn't let this thread or my experience persuade you from getting a BCM.
I'll tell you that this BHF middy I'm running is far more accurate than I. It's really been a joy to shoot lately.
Just a little update:
I've been lubing the shit out of my BCG with Slip 2000 EWL-30 and I've got to say, it's the best lube I've ever used and I feel like my guns are running much smoother; especially since I was using Remoil (barf). I'm not getting my hopes up yet but I will be trying steel cased again pretty soon. We'll see what happens then but again, no malfunctions in the past few hundred rounds of random 223/223 reloads/5.56 and my bolt has been locking back pretty much 100% of the time lately as well
Again, not getting my hopes up... but... things are starting to look a bit better... see what happens 1000 rds down the road...
PS I'd recommend the EWL-30 over standard Slip2000 any day. Love it.. best $12 I've ever spent!! :dance3:
WAIT! Were you using "RemOil" when you had the majority of your malfunctions? and now you switched to Slip2000? and now your seeing fewer malfunctions?
I attribute RemOil closer to Mexican Ditch Water than I do real weapons lube. I wouldn't use that crap to lube the hinges in my house.
I truly hope your have taken the advice posted above and re-clean W/chamber brush and solvent and lube with the Slip and then go try the steel/brass test run again. Good luck.
Until that day,
Darkop
WAIT! Were you using "RemOil" when you had the majority of your malfunctions? and now you switched to Slip2000? and now your seeing fewer malfunctions?
I attribute RemOil closer to Mexican Ditch Water than I do real weapons lube. I wouldn't use that crap to lube the hinges in my house.
I truly hope your have taken the advice posted above and re-clean W/chamber brush and solvent and lube with the Slip and then go try the steel/brass test run again. Good luck.
Until that day,
Darkop
Yes and I was unfortunately (stupidly) using Remoil most of the time. I have it in excess amount that was given to me but at this point I've given up and retired it to "last resort" status. It works OK on handguns but you need to add more lube every 20 minutes. I have cleaned it out pretty spotless including the chamber. However, I will not be shooting any more steel casings for a few more range trips. I'm aiming to run a lot more M193 through it to over the coming days and then see what happens when I switch back to the steel.
REM OIL!!!
I had access to a lubricant testing machine 5 years ago... Rem Oil was about as bad a lube as you could possibly find.
...
...
I attribute RemOil closer to Mexican Ditch Water than I do real weapons lube....
...
====================================
Funny.
Since AR guys like acronyms, I wonder if we called RemOil "MDW" if it would catch on...?
Whether it catches on or not, sure seems like an appropiate name to me...
But maybe it's just me...
.
When Wolf started going to shit for me (I know, some will say it was always shit, but I was well over 10k rounds in on the stuff and something changed) and I was getting super-stuck cases requiring a rod to unstick as the extractor would jump the rim, anything shot after that sticking would result in stuck cases whether brass or steel.
If, however, I hit the chamber with a brush and some solvent, I could go back to shooting 1k+ rounds of brass without cleaning.
I could easily shoot up to 200 rounds of the bad Wolf at a normal pace (like a match, with downtime between stages) but somewhere between 150 and 200 at an accelerated pace (like a class, with no real downtime) and the stuck case syndrome was a foregone conclusion.
Thank you for that info, Rob_s, I'm very glad to see your post. I have the same issue using Tula/Herters in my DD 16" middy. With a clean chamber all goes well until 200 rds or so and then a stuck case. Same as you, it took a rod to remove the case, then cleaning with a chamber brush solves the problem for a while. This never happens with brass cased, just steel, usually Tula as I have a lot of it.
Inspecting the spent cases, they would be speckled with powder sediment after a hundred rounds or so - not "lacquer" as some people claim, I'm pretty sure it's powder residue. The build up gets heavier until finally a case sticks in the chamber again.
Not a real problem since we're talking practice ammo but good to know I'm not the only one with this issue. And to the OP, I hope more rounds down the bore correct your shortstroking issue with steel case.
Old thread, I know.
I just had the first malfunction in quite awhile. I have not shot my BCM as much lately because I've been trying to conserve ammo but it's probably been at the very least 400-500 rounds since the last stoppage with about 1,000 rounds total through the upper. I was shooting PMC .223 and I only ran two 30rd mags through it during this latest session.
It looked like a short stroke half way through my 2nd mag. I did a very rapid fire, firing as fast as I can move my finger. The round was half way in with the primer area still facing down towards the magazine.
This was extremely easy to clear, I just popped the mag out, pulled on the CH, and out it came. The gun was cleaned and lubed with Slip 2000 EWL-30 a few hours prior to this. Granted, I did not have it running extremely wet but it should've been enough to avoid any issues. Just not the usual dripping wet that I like to do :D
I have not seen the bolt fail to lock back in a very long time, at least. I finished off the magazine after the failure and didn't run into any further issues.
Crappy PMC? Never had problems with it before; seems like decent enough ammo. Fluke magazine failure? Does anyone else ever run into any issue shooting PMC with an H buffer in a similar setup? I feel as though it wouldn't have malfunctioned if I was not firing so quickly -- it seems like it couldn't keep up with the rate of fire almost. Who knows.
I'm going to check the gas port alignment and my BCG when I get home but I have a feeling it'll be pretty normal.
Crappy PMC? Never had problems with it before; seems like decent enough ammo.
There is a nickname for PMC: Poorly Made Cartridge.
I've had several issues with it (including one would-be squid). It is fairly weak, too. It makes okay practice ammo, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Old thread, I know.
Maybe I missed it but have you used a chamber brush to clean the chamber yet?
This is imperative when using steel case ammo since that residue really gets stuck on and needs to be scrubbed out. Simply applying solvent with a patch will not do anything.
Maybe I missed it but have you used a chamber brush to clean the chamber yet?
This is imperative when using steel case ammo since that residue really gets stuck on and needs to be scrubbed out. Simply applying solvent with a patch will not do anything.
Yes, I have. I have not really shot any steel cased in awhile, though. The LGS I get most of my ammo from only charges 50 cents more for the boxes of brass cased PMC .223 so that's what I've been doing lately for range ammo.
Well, I'm with the camp that believes if your upper can not reliably feed and fire steel case ammo, it's time to get rid of it.
I had a DPMS carbine upper years ago that would not feed and fire steel case reliably but worked well with brass case. I sold it off at a discount and don't regret it.
I refuse to limit myself to $7-$10 per box brass case ammo for practice purposes.
I have the exact same upper as the OP on an RRA lower. Yesterday I shot 60 rounds of Fed XM193, then 400 rounds of MFS zinc plated steel case. No problems at all and the BCG was lubed wet with SLP 2000 EWL. The buffer installed was an "H" buffer and standard spring. I have tried the buffer swap out (Carbine instead of H) in other ARs and it has helped with any prior issues that I was having.
MFS is nice steel cased ammo BTW.
Well, I'm with the camp that believes if your upper can not reliably feed and fire steel case ammo, it's time to get rid of it.
I had a DPMS carbine upper years ago that would not feed and fire steel case reliably but worked well with brass case. I sold it off at a discount and don't regret it.
I refuse to limit myself to $7-$10 per box brass case ammo for practice purposes.
Please. Even if it did choke on steel cased ammo, if it's just "practice ammo" then who cares? I'm not going to sell a top of the line upper to get a junk upper because it'll shoot junk ammo more reliably. I haven't had a problem with steel cased ammo in a long time anyways; it was just during the "break-in" period.
Please. Even if it did choke on steel cased ammo, if it's just "practice ammo" then who cares? I'm not going to sell a top of the line upper to get a junk upper because it'll shoot junk ammo more reliably. I haven't had a problem with steel cased ammo in a long time anyways; it was just during the "break-in" period.
Who said anything about selling your upper to get a junk upper?
I was using the DPMS upper as an example about having confidence in your rifle. I realize DPMS is considered a junk brand.
You are still having problems with your upper as per your updated post. You will always lack confidence in this particular upper for as long as you own it and that's my point. Just make sure you always keep a post-it note on this upper that says "unreliable with steel case and sometimes brass case, must use absolutely perfect ammo". :lol:
I am in the camp that says .223 ammo with steel cases is a new thing and wasn't around when the AR was invented. As long as my AR's work with brass ammo then I am good to go.
Well, I'm with the camp that believes if your upper can not reliably feed and fire steel case ammo, it's time to get rid of it.
I had a DPMS carbine upper years ago that would not feed and fire steel case reliably but worked well with brass case. I sold it off at a discount and don't regret it.
I refuse to limit myself to $7-$10 per box brass case ammo for practice purposes.
Please. Even if it did choke on steel cased ammo, if it's just "practice ammo" then who cares? I'm not going to sell a top of the line upper to get a junk upper because it'll shoot junk ammo more reliably. I haven't had a problem with steel cased ammo in a long time anyways; it was just during the "break-in" period.
The AR-15 system requires a break in period? :confused:
The AR-15 system requires a break in period? :confused:
The break-in period is only valid with top quality brass case ammo though. If you fire any steel case ammo during the break-in period you have to start over. Break-in also requires an entire case of ammo evidently...
Say what you will but I don't see much else for an explanation as to why so many AR's cannot shoot steel cased or other weak ammo for the first few hundred rounds; or they are sometimes troublesome within the first few hundred. I'm not going to pretend to know why this is but clearly it has to be some so called "Breaking in" which could include any number of things such as the gas port opening up. I'm not saying every AR needs to go through this supposed "break-in" period but it definitely does apply to some it seems.
If somebody wants to run a break-in on their gun, that's their call.
If we can please stop short of making baseless, sky-is-falling BS claims about AR pattern guns reqiuring a break-in across the board, that'd be just dandy.
It would be equally dandy if members don't automatically presume that another member making a casual, in-quotes reference to a break-in period is advocating a break-in procedure for all ARs.
Dumb arguments happen in the natural course of events; let's not actively seek them out.
RogerinTPA
05-29-12, 12:20
Please. Even if it did choke on steel cased ammo, if it's just "practice ammo" then who cares? I'm not going to sell a top of the line upper to get a junk upper because it'll shoot junk ammo more reliably. I haven't had a problem with steel cased ammo in a long time anyways; it was just during the "break-in" period.
Not required.
Now a "vetting process" is a totally different animal. It use to be said, and many of us still believe, that running 1000 to 1500 problem free rounds through an AR, and in the shortest possible time (Ideally a 3 day carbine course) will do it. Being ran that hard, it ensures that everything is operational & nothing breaks, and "vets" the weapon as being "reliable" enough to bet your life on it. It also serves to shake out & vet all the stuff you got stuck on it (Mags, Optics, ammo, etc...). It may run like a sewing machine or require you to tweak it (change ammo, mags, buffers, action & extractor springs, etc...), to get it to run more reliably.
BufordTJustice
05-29-12, 14:10
Not required.
Now a "vetting process" is a totally different animal. It use to be said, and many of us still believe, that running 1000 to 1500 problem free rounds through an AR, and in the shortest possible time (Ideally a 3 day carbine course) will do it. Being ran that hard, it insure that everything is operational & nothing breaks, and "vets" the weapon as being "reliable" enough to bet your life on it. It also serves to shake out & vet all the stuff you got stuck on it (Mags, Optics, ammo, etc...). It may run like a sowing machine or require you to tweak it (change ammo, mags, buffers, action & extractor springs, etc...), to get it to run more reliably.
THIS. +1
I have a 16" BCM mid-length std. (running with a H buffer). No issues with Silver Bear, 1000 rounds total of this ammo type (400ish rounds at a carbine course). When I got it I emailed BCM re: a break in for their uppers....answer: go out and shoot the hell out of it. Yes.
PA PATRIOT
05-30-12, 11:21
I have reviewed the entire thread and notice no one has asked this question. It appears short stroking is the major issue and the OP stated he has replaced the stock "H" buffer with a carbine buffer in the past with a 25% improvement in cycling.
So I have to ask what buffer spring are you using and is it a possibility that it could be a Extra Power Spring and not a standard mil-spec buffer spring?
Other then a under sized gas port, misaligned FSB partially blocking the gas port, damaged gas tube, loose gas key, missing gas rings which should have been discovered when BCM inspected the rifle this middie should be running even with steel case ammo.
The only other issue would be the bolt making contact with something inside the receiver as I recall the OP stated was a possibility in a past post.
I would have to ask BCM to reinspect the full rifle and ship some ammo and magazines that your using to them to see what they can find.
I have reviewed the entire thread and notice no one has asked this question. It appears short stroking is the major issue and the OP stated he has replaced the stock "H" buffer with a carbine buffer in the past with a 25% improvement in cycling.
So I have to ask what buffer spring are you using and is it a possibility that it could be a Extra Power Spring and not a standard mil-spec buffer spring?
Other then a under sized gas port, misaligned FSB partially blocking the gas port, damaged gas tube, loose gas key, missing gas rings which should have been discovered when BCM inspected the rifle this middie should be running even with steel case ammo.
The only other issue would be the bolt making contact with something inside the receiver as I recall the OP stated was a possibility in a past post.
I would have to ask BCM to reinspect the full rifle and ship some ammo and magazines that your using to them to see what they can find.
Thanks for the advice. Although my carbine has run nicely for the most part lately, I am not 100% comfortable with it, and that's not cool for having a nearly $2,000 BCM...
I think it's too soon for it to just be a "fluke" malfunction. If it had been 1,000+ rds then I may be OK with it but it's only been probably 400 rds or so since the last malfunction happened.
I still have not had much of a chance to go over everything since I last shot it. I checked out the BCG last night made sure no issues there but that's as far as I went. I'm mainly going to be checking the gas tube for any kind of blockage, possible gas port blockage, alignment, etc hopefully tonight.
I'm using the standard buffer spring that was included with my BCM lower.
I have gone over these things numerous times as has BCM and they say there is no issue. I certainly do not see any visible issues either but with the way it functions, I cannot help but think the gas port could be a hair under sized or there is some kind of burr, imperfection, or whatever else somewhere.
I understand I'm shooting relatively weak ammo but I am pretty much the only person in the world with a 16" BCM mid-length that short strokes on .223 brass and/or .223 steel -- I even see people with the same setup as me running H2/H3 buffers without issues like this!
I have seen a huge improvement in shooting steel and I wouldn't be concerned if I ran into an issue or two with it but when I'm shooting .223 brass such as PMC, Remington, American Eagle, etc there should not be frequent issues in a 16" Middy.
I'm going to double/triple/quadruple check the entire gas system and what-not. I have a class in August which will be great to see how it holds up but I do not want to wait until August, that's for sure.
I hate to have to send it back to BCM but at this point the issue needs to be fixed or at least identified and I'll do it my damn self. I've considered enlarging the gas port ever so slightly but that's really my very last resort if I have a lot of issues.
Overall, yes it has improved but with this latest malfunction I'm still wondering what the hell is going on. "Break-in" period or not, I've had more malfunctions with this AR than any other firearm I've ever owned.
Interesting note, I have not had the bolt fail to lock back in months which was a frequent issue before. It happened once a few months ago as noted in this thread but I believe it had to do with my buddy not knowing how to properly shoot an AR.
Contact BCM and send it back. You do realize that all AR's will malfunction at some point. Whether it be ammo, magazine or something with the weapon.
What needs to happen it to rule out things like, ammo, mags, etc.. and then focus on the weapon.
Thanks for the advice. Although my carbine has run nicely for the most part lately, I am not 100% comfortable with it, and that's not cool for having a nearly $2,000 BCM...
I think it's too soon for it to just be a "fluke" malfunction. If it had been 1,000+ rds then I may be OK with it but it's only been probably 400 rds or so since the last malfunction happened.
I still have not had much of a chance to go over everything since I last shot it. I checked out the BCG last night made sure no issues there but that's as far as I went. I'm mainly going to be checking the gas tube for any kind of blockage, possible gas port blockage, alignment, etc hopefully tonight.
I'm using the standard buffer spring that was included with my BCM lower.
I have gone over these things numerous times as has BCM and they say there is no issue. I certainly do not see any visible issues either but with the way it functions, I cannot help but think the gas port could be a hair under sized or there is some kind of burr, imperfection, or whatever else somewhere.
I understand I'm shooting relatively weak ammo but I am pretty much the only person in the world with a 16" BCM mid-length that short strokes on .223 brass and/or .223 steel -- I even see people with the same setup as me running H2/H3 buffers without issues like this!
I have seen a huge improvement in shooting steel and I wouldn't be concerned if I ran into an issue or two with it but when I'm shooting .223 brass such as PMC, Remington, American Eagle, etc there should not be frequent issues in a 16" Middy.
I'm going to double/triple/quadruple check the entire gas system and what-not. I have a class in August which will be great to see how it holds up but I do not want to wait until August, that's for sure.
I hate to have to send it back to BCM but at this point the issue needs to be fixed or at least identified and I'll do it my damn self. I've considered enlarging the gas port ever so slightly but that's really my very last resort if I have a lot of issues.
Overall, yes it has improved but with this latest malfunction I'm still wondering what the hell is going on. "Break-in" period or not, I've had more malfunctions with this AR than any other firearm I've ever owned.
Interesting note, I have not had the bolt fail to lock back in months which was a frequent issue before. It happened once a few months ago as noted in this thread but I believe it had to do with my buddy not knowing how to properly shoot an AR.
BravoCompanyUSA
05-31-12, 19:36
Hi DJ,
You are using the term "short stroke", but then saying "failure to feed", and "rounds half way in" and originally describing a stuck steel casing. At this point with that info (assuming I am reading accurately), its not a short stroke issue. In any event - DO NOT MESS WITH THE GAS PORT. Your warrenty is instantly void.
Please send us and email with a detailed description of what happened after you pulled the trigger, (ie: rifle went bang, ejected empty casing, cycled to rear, picked up next round from mag, round stopped half way in...)
Let us get it here in the shop and if there is an issue - we can fix it in about 3 minutes. Its no charge.
If you do not know what is wrong, please do not do the messing and guessing method. We would really rather go thru it front to back.
Thanks!
Paul
Hi DJ,
You are using the term "short stroke", but then saying "failure to feed", and "rounds half way in" and originally describing a stuck steel casing. At this point with that info (assuming I am reading accurately), its not a short stroke issue. In any event - DO NOT MESS WITH THE GAS PORT. Your warrenty is instantly void.
Please send us and email with a detailed description of what happened after you pulled the trigger, (ie: rifle went bang, ejected empty casing, cycled to rear, picked up next round from mag, round stopped half way in...)
Let us get it here in the shop and if there is an issue - we can fix it in about 3 minutes. Its no charge.
If you do not know what is wrong, please do not do the messing and guessing method. We would really rather go thru it front to back.
Thanks!
Paul
I'm not sure where I said failure to feed unless it was in one of my very early posts.
It's not a steel casing issue. I rarely if ever shoot steel cased ammo now, and I keep my chamber clean. The round will be stripped from the mag but only makes it maybe half way into the chamber before the bolt closes on it. This happens randomly with most any 223... it may happen after 300-400 rounds or it may happen within the first 50 rounds but it's the same issue every time.
You guys already did inspect it once and didn't find anything wrong with it. I'm actually in the process of sending it back to you so hopefully your armorer will be able to replicate the issue although it's so random that I'm honestly doubting you'll be able to replicate unless you keep the upper for a month and shoot it frequently.
I understand my claims have been all over the place, but that's solely because the malfunctions and issues were all over the place at first. I've experienced double feeds, short strokes, failure to feed, bolt not locking back, blah blah. Since I have put more rounds through it, the only issue I am experiencing is the occasional malfunction with most any brand of 223. I have not had the bolt fail to lock back in a long time and even when I'm experiencing the short stroking with 223, my bolt has still been locking back.
Again, I've been in contact with your CS again and will be sending the upper out again this weekend. I'd never touch the gas port unless the problem continues on and cannot be fixed. I'm crossing my fingers!
Thanks for taking the time to reply Paul.
Please tell us the follwoing specifically when you send it in.
1. Description of issues. All of them.
2. Type(s) of ammuntion that were fired. I.E.- Lake City M855, 62gr. 5.56 or PMC Bronze Line 55gr. .223
3. Any modifications made to weapon.
4. Buffer spring and buffer type.
5. Lubricant type.
6. Magazines used.
I'm not sure where I said failure to feed unless it was in one of my very early posts.
It's not a steel casing issue. I rarely if ever shoot steel cased ammo now, and I keep my chamber clean. The round will be stripped from the mag but only makes it maybe half way into the chamber before the bolt closes on it. This happens randomly with most any 223... it may happen after 300-400 rounds or it may happen within the first 50 rounds but it's the same issue every time.
You guys already did inspect it once and didn't find anything wrong with it. I'm actually in the process of sending it back to you so hopefully your armorer will be able to replicate the issue although it's so random that I'm honestly doubting you'll be able to replicate unless you keep the upper for a month and shoot it frequently.
I understand my claims have been all over the place, but that's solely because the malfunctions and issues were all over the place at first. I've experienced double feeds, short strokes, failure to feed, bolt not locking back, blah blah. Since I have put more rounds through it, the only issue I am experiencing is the occasional malfunction with most any brand of 223. I have not had the bolt fail to lock back in a long time and even when I'm experiencing the short stroking with 223, my bolt has still been locking back.
Again, I've been in contact with your CS again and will be sending the upper out again this weekend. I'd never touch the gas port unless the problem continues on and cannot be fixed. I'm crossing my fingers!
Thanks for taking the time to reply Paul.
When Wolf started going to shit for me (I know, some will say it was always shit, but I was well over 10k rounds in on the stuff and something changed) and I was getting super-stuck cases requiring a rod to unstick as the extractor would jump the rim, anything shot after that sticking would result in stuck cases whether brass or steel.
If, however, I hit the chamber with a brush and some solvent, I could go back to shooting 1k+ rounds of brass without cleaning.
I could easily shoot up to 200 rounds of the bad Wolf at a normal pace (like a match, with downtime between stages) but somewhere between 150 and 200 at an accelerated pace (like a class, with no real downtime) and the stuck case syndrome was a foregone conclusion.
Thank you for that info, Rob_s, I'm very glad to see your post. I have the same issue using Tula/Herters in my DD 16" middy. With a clean chamber all goes well until 200 rds or so and then a stuck case. Same as you, it took a rod to remove the case, then cleaning with a chamber brush solves the problem for a while. This never happens with brass cased, just steel, usually Tula as I have a lot of it.
Inspecting the spent cases, they would be speckled with powder sediment after a hundred rounds or so - not "lacquer" as some people claim, I'm pretty sure it's powder residue. The build up gets heavier until finally a case sticks in the chamber again.
Not a real problem since we're talking practice ammo but good to know I'm not the only one with this issue. And to the OP, I hope more rounds down the bore correct your shortstroking issue with steel case.
Well since the topic is BCM and steel case I wanted to add that I just bought a BCM 16" midlength upper and right about 200 rounds of Herter's/Tula had a stuck case that needed a rod to clear, just like my Daniel Defense above. In a way I'm relieved, I was slightly doubting the DD but there's no way both the DD and BCM would be a problem. Just posting because I truly believe that Rob's on to something about Wolf and in my case Tula changing for the worse recently. I had no issues using it until the large batch I bought around Nov. 2010, Herter's 55gr FMJ Lot # P-740-09. Reading through Cabelas reviews there have been dozens of complaints of stuck cases in otherwise reliable ARs.
As expected I've had no problems with either upper with brass cased ammo.
As I posted early in this thread, I was getting a failure to feed stoppages (rounds stuck partially in magazine, BCG not returning to battery) from Wolf WPA about every 5-10 rounds, and the bolt would never lock back on an empty mag. I'm running a BCM 14.5" lightweight midlength upper, and a non-BCM bolt carrier group (from a generally well-regarded company, but not BCM, DD, Colt, LMT, or Spikes).
Interesting turn of events for me. I swapped out my non-BCM bolt carrier group for a BCM BCG, which is what I wanted to purchase from the start, but it wasn't in stock at the time I built my rifle. The swap-out was prompted by a defect in the bolt carrier that I noticed which should not affect the function of the rifle (a burr at the back of the bolt carrier is chewing up my buffer, but is not inhibiting cycling). I figured I'd get the BCM BCG, send the other-brand bolt carrier back to the manufacturer for repairs, and that it would serve as a back up BCG for me....
I placed an order for the BCM BCG, and it was on my front porch 2 business days later. Went to the range yesterday to test the new BCG. I put 30 rounds of IMI M193 through it, then 120 rounds of Prvi Partisan M193, with no malfunctions or stoppages. Afterward, I decided to try some Wolf WPA. In 120 rounds through 4 magazines, I did not have a single malfunction. Bolt locked back on all 4 empty mags. I'll update again once I've had a chance to put more rounds through the rifle.
...Meanwhile, after over a month of correspondence with the other manufacturer, I still have no answer regarding whether they'll repair my bolt carrier.
So are you going to tell us who sold the BCG that seems to have caused problems?
After reading all 10 pages I am going to chime in, I am fighting a similar issue with a new BCM 14.5 middie upper, I am using the following
Spikes lower
Spikes BCG
BCM 14.5 middie upper
I have yet to be able to clear a single magazine of 55 or 62 gr. wolf in the black box, I have tried using the Spikes ST-2 buffer as well as a carbine buffer and tried feeding from 10 different pmags. I am going to give the rifle a extremely thorough cleaning tonight and then tomorrow am hitting the range with both wolf culprits, a few different selections of brass .223 and .556 as well as a bcm bcg and I am going to try and find what combination works properly. Between the different buffers I was having short stroking problems as well as failure to feed issues depending which ammo/buffer combination I was trying. If I can not get this to run on steel I am going to ditch it and go another route, I shoot alot every week and can simply not afford to only shoot brass. Hopefully I can find some winning combos tomorrow and post some range results.
After reading all 10 pages I am going to chime in, I am fighting a similar issue with a new BCM 14.5 middie upper, I am using the following
Spikes lower
Spikes BCG
BCM 14.5 middie upper
I have yet to be able to clear a single magazine of 55 or 62 gr. wolf in the black box, I have tried using the Spikes ST-2 buffer as well as a carbine buffer and tried feeding from 10 different pmags. I am going to give the rifle a extremely thorough cleaning tonight and then tomorrow am hitting the range with both wolf culprits, a few different selections of brass .223 and .556 as well as a bcm bcg and I am going to try and find what combination works properly. Between the different buffers I was having short stroking problems as well as failure to feed issues depending which ammo/buffer combination I was trying. If I can not get this to run on steel I am going to ditch it and go another route, I shoot alot every week and can simply not afford to only shoot brass. Hopefully I can find some winning combos tomorrow and post some range results.
Wolf black box is notoriously underpowered. You're just going to frustrate yourself by using the heavier ST-2 buffer since the likely result will be continuous short stroking.
After reading all 10 pages I am going to chime in, I am fighting a similar issue with a new BCM 14.5 middie upper, I am using the following
Spikes lower
Spikes BCG
BCM 14.5 middie upper
I have yet to be able to clear a single magazine of 55 or 62 gr. wolf in the black box, I have tried using the Spikes ST-2 buffer as well as a carbine buffer and tried feeding from 10 different pmags. I am going to give the rifle a extremely thorough cleaning tonight and then tomorrow am hitting the range with both wolf culprits, a few different selections of brass .223 and .556 as well as a bcm bcg and I am going to try and find what combination works properly. Between the different buffers I was having short stroking problems as well as failure to feed issues depending which ammo/buffer combination I was trying. If I can not get this to run on steel I am going to ditch it and go another route, I shoot alot every week and can simply not afford to only shoot brass. Hopefully I can find some winning combos tomorrow and post some range results.
How many rounds have you put through it? I'd definitely keep the carbine buffer in. Screw the Spikes SnakeOil buffer! :)
I only run steel thru my AK.
The AK 7.62x39 in the past had a coat of Lacquer on them. The Lacquer would heat up & melt. The AK isn't exactly a tight fit on any part. Dig a hole, fill it with dirt, dig it up & shoot.
The AR15 is a lot tighter & I know they made the polymer coating for the AK ammo.. The chamber of the AR15 may be too tight or the Steel 223 may be a little thicker because of what ever they coat them with.
In Vietnam the 7.62x39 were Copper Washed. I don't know if they make a Copper Wash steel .223-5.56?
I don't know if this helps or not.
Do you know that you are replying to a thread that's about 8 months old?
I only run steel thru my AK.
The AK 7.62x39 in the past had a coat of Lacquer on them. The Lacquer would heat up & melt. The AK isn't exactly a tight fit on any part. Dig a hole, fill it with dirt, dig it up & shoot.
The AR15 is a lot tighter & I know they made the polymer coating for the AK ammo.. The chamber of the AR15 may be too tight or the Steel 223 may be a little thicker because of what ever they coat them with.
In Vietnam the 7.62x39 were Copper Washed. I don't know if they make a Copper Wash steel .223-5.56?
I don't know if this helps or not.
Old thread suitable for reference at this point. My problem was eventually resolved after putting 1,000 rounds or so of 5.56 through my BCM, FYI.
Good to hear, djmorris. I remember this thread now and wondered how it turned out for you.
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