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murphman
02-20-12, 07:44
Brother just send me these two links and I think they are both useful as we all have sugar and probably honey in our house.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5693114_treat-battlefield-wounds-sugar.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_5689579_use-honey-sugar-treat-wounds.html

rosalind
06-14-12, 00:43
Brother just send me these two links and I think they are both useful as we all have sugar and probably honey in our house.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5693114_treat-battlefield-wounds-sugar.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_5689579_use-honey-sugar-treat-wounds.html

Sugar effort it concern in different ways. It is normally aseptic constrain the progress of microorganisms. It absorb up humidity and thus assist decrease the swelling general to injured tissue. Sugar may also offer the vittles or boost for tissue to invigorate.

Caduceus
06-14-12, 13:50
I've heard of both, but never tried either.

However, from experience, I'd avoid granular objects - sugar, pepper, etc. It can be a real PITA to get off the wound once you're at the hospital. No, it doens't just rinse off - you get it in the congealed blood, which then has to be removed to see the wound. And then they have to get out all the pieces of stuff that you shoved onto the wound. Typically before the lidocaine goes in.

No real-life experiences on the treating end with honey.

jknopp44
06-14-12, 16:09
I've heard of both, but never tried either.

However, from experience, I'd avoid granular objects - sugar, pepper, etc. It can be a real PITA to get off the wound once you're at the hospital. No, it doens't just rinse off - you get it in the congealed blood, which then has to be removed to see the wound. And then they have to get out all the pieces of stuff that you shoved onto the wound. Typically before the lidocaine goes in.

No real-life experiences on the treating end with honey.

I would use neither. We have people come to the ER from time to time with all sorts of home remedies smeared on their wounds. Ultimately it just makes the wound harder to clean and repair. Clean, and bandaged wound. Keep other crap out of it.

Iraq Ninja
06-14-12, 16:23
I think the application is for remote, field expedient use, and not as a default protocol. Thus, is honey (with its history of use) any better than doing nothing other than irrigation?

jknopp44
06-14-12, 16:29
I think the application is for remote, field expedient use, and not as a default protocol. Thus, is honey (with its history of use) any better than doing nothing other than irrigation?

I would suggest no. I do not like the idea of putting a sugary organic material in a wound that is most likely laden with bacteria. That is just a setup for trouble.

Hmac
06-14-12, 18:24
Here ya go...here's another similarly scholarly review of something you should keep in mind for, you know, when the SHTF and it's EOTWAWKI, and your bunker mate has a gallbladder attack.

http://www.gallbladderattack.com/coffeeenema.shtml




Good lord :rolleyes:

Kokopelli
06-14-12, 18:37
Sugar will help to coagulate.. You must control bleeding to survive.. Just saying.. Ron

pmarc
06-14-12, 19:02
Sugar will help to coagulate.. You must control bleeding to survive.. Just saying.. Ron

Yes, I've heard the same.

Regarding the fear of giving sugar to bacteria, I am not sure. There is one school of thought that goes: excess sugar is used to preserve fruit, because in high concentrations, sugar makes for a hostile environment for bacteria...

I'd like to see any scientific evidence...

Kokopelli
06-14-12, 19:15
Yes, I've heard the same.

Regarding the fear of giving sugar to bacteria, I am not sure. There is one school of thought that goes: excess sugar is used to preserve fruit, because in high concentrations, sugar makes for a hostile environment for bacteria...

I'd like to see any scientific evidence...

Pub Med is a good source.. Ron

Abraxas
06-14-12, 19:41
Thanks for sharing

jknopp44
06-14-12, 20:08
Yes, I've heard the same.

Regarding the fear of giving sugar to bacteria, I am not sure. There is one school of thought that goes: excess sugar is used to preserve fruit, because in high concentrations, sugar makes for a hostile environment for bacteria...

I'd like to see any scientific evidence...

Yea I am not saying its a definite no go, just not 100% sold on the idea. The anti-coagulate properties would be a bonus, though I have never seen it put to the test. I will do some research myself. Maybe I will be surprised. I am always open for new ideas/treatments. Found a recent journal article on the issue.

http://journals.lww.com/aswcjournal/Fulltext/2011/01000/Use_of_Honey_in_Wound_Care__An_Update.11.aspx

Kyohte
06-15-12, 10:37
Coming from my experience working in the microbiology field, and my training as a first responder, I would suggest going and getting the proper equipment if you want to be prepared. Novelty is great, but when the established options are better...use them.

As far as increasing bacterial growth? I wouldn't be too concerned with that. Honey has anti-bacterial properties, and an overload of sugar does, too. Again though, this is not something that I would think of as a "primary" tool to treat anything.

Personally, I typically avoid eHow, as it seems to be full of morons offering unsound advice. Articles like that convince people not to buy things they should have on hand in favor of something that would have been ideal in the Dark Ages.

Dionysusigma
07-04-12, 12:09
I have personally used both sugar and used honey, in wounds ranging from a simple cut finger to knee/elbow scrapes to moderate gashes. Both have worked for me, but honey worked a bit better. The advantage of sugar is that it stays in place better than honey.

My preferred method is extensive irrigation and proper bandaging, though, until I can get somewhere where someone better trained than I can have a proper look at it.

Red Rezin
08-01-12, 15:59
Interesting topic.

Hmac
08-01-12, 16:46
Silly, IMHO.

redone13
08-02-12, 16:41
Interesting. Seems like a stretch though.

OMD
08-12-12, 22:15
We've used Menuka Honey - expensive but works well as nature super anti-microbial. Extra tacky and packs well.

GTF425
08-13-12, 00:12
I'm just a lowly EMT-B, but here's my opinion:

Sterility should be your main concern in a field injury. Infection is serious shit and needs to be foremost in your mind. Apart from arterial bleeding, you'll have more than enough time to apply indirect/direct pressure and properly apply a pressure dressing. If you're willing to improvise and use honey/sugar on a cut, then you should be more than willing to hold pressure while tearing a sleeve off of your shirt.

With arterial bleeding, if you're isolated and/or lost, then it's just your time to die. Unless you can make a field expedient TQ and apply it quickly, you're ****ed. (hence why I carry a CAT in my cargo pocket when hiking)

Just my .02, but I really think there are far better methods to control bleeding than this. Carry a small med kit with you with cravats and gauze and you'll be more than capable of treating all but the most severe hemmorhage.

Hmac
08-13-12, 09:27
It would be inconceivable to me that any competent EMS Medical Director would sign off on protocols that allowed EMTs to use honey or pancake syrup or any other breakfast table condiment on acute traumatic wounds. Likewise any competent ER physician or surgeon.

Gutshot John
08-18-12, 20:48
Honey is something I would definitely use as a field expedient antiseptic for minor wounds. I would never consider sugar as it might just as easily provide a growth medium for bacteria.

Using it for battlefield trauma???

Only if there isn't anything better around.

bubba04
08-18-12, 21:04
my bros German shepherdad a tumor removed on her leg. They stitched wound close but wound opened back up exposing bones and tendons.

due to amount of tissue removed and there wasn't enough skin to stitch it back together.

what is interesting is the vet is applying some sort of sugar dressing on the wound once a day. In the last 2 weeks it has made good progress healing.

Ready.Fire.Aim
08-18-12, 21:12
I remember reading that they used honey to treat burns in World War One since honey won't support fungal or bacterial growth.

RFA

Texas42
08-18-12, 22:17
Honey is something I would definitely use as a field expedient antiseptic for minor wounds. I would never consider sugar as it might just as easily provide a growth medium for bacteria.

Using it for battlefield trauma???

Only if there isn't anything better around.

Won't use sugar, but will use honey? Do you know what is in honey?

Hmac
08-18-12, 22:23
I remember reading that they used honey to treat burns in World War One since honey won't support fungal or bacterial growth.

RFA

Bearing in mind that even rudimentary wound physiology was a complete mystery then and that antibiotics were completely unheard of until 1928.

The use of honey as a field expedient in the treatment of acute wounds is stupid. No other way to say it. It is currently used occasionally in chronic wounds. I think that's basically pretty stupid too, but it is at least somewhat more rational than battlefield medics carrying a squeeze bottle of honey with them.

WillC
08-18-12, 23:17
I've also seen Copenhagen used to do the same.

GTF425
08-19-12, 03:07
I've also seen Copenhagen used to do the same.

There's nothing a good pinch can't fix.

MedicPatriot
08-26-12, 18:43
In a SHTF type of environment where you are not near an ER, this may be a legitimate treatment. Sugar packing can actually be useful in treating local infections when other methods fail. It does not help in controlling bleeding.

In this situation the wound would be packed with sugar and eventually it would for a paste. This would have to be irrigated multiple times a day, meaning completely washed out, then repacked.

I probably would try it as a last resort, but it is legitimate and isn't a "home remedy" that is complete BS like most are.

Iraq Ninja
08-26-12, 18:58
Bearing in mind that even rudimentary wound physiology was a complete mystery then and that antibiotics were completely unheard of until 1928.

The use of honey as a field expedient in the treatment of acute wounds is stupid.

Then why is there a long history of using honey in warfare? The Romans didn't have quickclot gauze, nor did the Napoleonic forces, yet they used Honey and sugar. It worked and they continued to use it.

Just because they didn't understand wound physiology doesn't mean they knew what worked and what didn't. I have used super glue to treat wounds and I am sure there are lots of people who will call me stupid, yet it worked for me very well.

Hmac
08-26-12, 19:04
Then why is there a long history of using honey in warfare? The Romans didn't have quickclot gauze, nor did the Napoleonic forces, yet they used Honey and sugar. It worked and they continued to use it.

Just because they didn't understand wound physiology doesn't mean they knew what worked and what didn't. I have used super glue to treat wounds and I am sure there are lots of people who will call me stupid, yet it worked for me very well.



I don't know why the Romans or the French used honey on wounds. Perhaps because they were more likely to have honey available than soap. Doesn't matter. We've moved on.

Super Glue is used in modern operating rooms every day.

Don Robison
08-26-12, 19:17
Then why is there a long history of using honey in warfare? The Romans didn't have quickclot gauze, nor did the Napoleonic forces, yet they used Honey and sugar. It worked and they continued to use it.

Just because they didn't understand wound physiology doesn't mean they knew what worked and what didn't. I have used super glue to treat wounds and I am sure there are lots of people who will call me stupid, yet it worked for me very well.



I don't know why the Romans or the French used honey on wounds. Perhaps because they were more likely to have honey available than soap. Doesn't matter. We've moved on.

Super Glue is used in modern operating rooms every day.


Anyone have any idea what the mortality rate was among those treated?
One number I've seen published is 45-65% mortality for battle wounds rate in a hospital setting during the 1700's. Just because they did something doesn't mean it was very effective.
Just some food for thought.

Gutshot John
08-26-12, 19:42
Honey has been used for centuries, that is true but I've never seen anything in the texts to indicate that it was used for significant hemorrhage. Likewise there is little documented modern evidence that it can effectively stop major arterial bleeding. I think honey works well on clotting minor bleeding and preventing sepsis/infection on wounds that. Using it to stop a major arterial bleed? I'll have to see some documentation before I think that's a proper substitute for direct pressure, tourniquet or other. If I had nothing else I might give it a try if it was handy, but I wouldn't waste time looking for it.

Gutshot John
08-26-12, 19:43
Actually one effective clotting agent I've heard being used was spider webs.

MedicPatriot
08-26-12, 20:01
Folks, this stuff (honey & sugar) isn't meant to clot...it's meant to help treat local infections.

99% of wounds you can stop the bleeding with nothing but direct pressure. Even major arterial bleeding can be stopped with direct pressure. If not, you can use QuickClot and direct pressure. If not you can tourniquet.

Honey and sugar is not going to help stop major bleeding. Humans have a tendency to have a need to "put something on it" instead of doing the basics. Soap and water to clean out wounds, direct pressure and the rest of the bleeding control cascade to stop the bleeding.

SteveS
08-26-12, 20:04
What is interesting as it is said Honey has anti infection{antibacterial} properties so why is it recommended not to feed honey to babies because of the chance of the baby getting botulism[?] or something poisioning.

MedicPatriot
08-26-12, 21:02
What is interesting as it is said Honey has anti infection{antibacterial} properties so why is it recommended not to feed honey to babies because of the chance of the baby getting botulism[?] or something poisioning.

You are exactly right. If honey is being used for treatment of a local infection you should "boil" it first. This is according to the physician who I asked about this stuff. I do NOT know the actual method of treating with honey, only sugar. Though I never think I will use this, I would rather go with sugar than honey. That's just me.

Iraq Ninja
08-26-12, 23:51
Anyone who has spent any length of time in a combat zone knows, you use what has proven to work. This treatment became widespread in Napoleonic times for good reason I suspect, just like certain plants were harvested for their wound packing abilities.

We all know that sugar/honey is not a primary form of treatment, but if that is all one has, the knowledge may save a life in austere conditions when primary care is days away.

I was fortunate to have primary care only a helo ride away in my real life adventures, but knew in the back of my mind what to do once the med kit ran dry.

To ignore this body of knowledge is ignorant in my opinion. To use it without experience and wisdom is stupid.

Hmac
08-27-12, 06:27
Anyone who has spent any length of time in a combat zone knows, you use what has proven to work. This treatment became widespread in Napoleonic times for good reason I suspect, just like certain plants were harvested for their wound packing abilities.

They used to bleed people in Napoleonic times too. That practice persisted into the 19th century.

benthughes
08-27-12, 23:34
A-thank you. Why bother packing honey in the off chance that it may be useful when they have products like quick clot out? If I'm dealing with acute bleeding the possibility of infection is waaaay in the back of my mind. Try to keep it clean but priorities...


Folks, this stuff (honey & sugar) isn't meant to clot...it's meant to help treat local infections.

99% of wounds you can stop the bleeding with nothing but direct pressure. Even major arterial bleeding can be stopped with direct pressure. If not, you can use QuickClot and direct pressure. If not you can tourniquet.

Honey and sugar is not going to help stop major bleeding. Humans have a tendency to have a need to "put something on it" instead of doing the basics. Soap and water to clean out wounds, direct pressure and the rest of the bleeding control cascade to stop the bleeding.

ftbear
11-03-12, 10:54
While with the MFO, I saw a Columbian soldier who had a burst appendix and the wound care that they used was based upon sugar. The wound healed beautifully.

This is not a recommendation to use sugar, only the one time that I saw it used.

ftbear
11-03-12, 11:17
This article has a nice review of the use of sugar in wounds.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956799/

Delta_co
11-22-12, 18:56
Anyone who has spent any length of time in a combat zone knows, you use what has proven to work. This treatment became widespread in Napoleonic times for good reason I suspect, just like certain plants were harvested for their wound packing abilities.

We all know that sugar/honey is not a primary form of treatment, but if that is all one has, the knowledge may save a life in austere conditions when primary care is days away.

I was fortunate to have primary care only a helo ride away in my real life adventures, but knew in the back of my mind what to do once the med kit ran dry.

To ignore this body of knowledge is ignorant in my opinion. To use it without experience and wisdom is stupid.

+1 This

barrelwrench
09-03-13, 12:18
I've heard of plastic wrap being used to dress wounds?

Gutshot John
09-03-13, 19:14
Plastic wrap can be used to dress wounds if you don't have much else.

The use of honey was never as a coagulant. Honey was indeed used as an antiseptic. It may indeed inhibit bleeding in minor cuts, but nothing more serious than that.

The use of sugar is vastly overstated. Was it potentially used? Sure, was it widely used? Nope. Granulated sugar wasn't cheap/widely available until the 19th century, likewise if improperly administered it would create a perfect environment for bacteria.

The diabetic ulcer study mentioned above I believe is using the abrasive quality of sugar to debride the wound and otherwise lessening inflammation through hypertonicity and pH affects. Likewise the article conflates sugar with honey which are not the same. Finally it's not talking about battlefield use, it's talking about wound healing, which is definitely NOT the same as wound dressing.

Caduceus
09-04-13, 04:19
This article has a nice review of the use of sugar in wounds.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2956799/

Using sugar on diabetic foot wounds? Talk about ironic...

Regarding a post a few pages, and a year, back, sugar in high concentrations causes increased urination due to a high osmotic gradient. This probably does the same with bacterial cell walls or membtanes.. This is probably why it works as an anti septic.

Hmac
09-04-13, 06:42
Nevermind. I get a chuckle out of this thread.

Sensei
09-04-13, 10:47
Nevermind. I get a chuckle out of this thread.

What? You don't strap packets of Domino Sugar on your AR next to your tourniquet?

Hmac
09-04-13, 12:09
What? You don't strap packets of Domino Sugar on your AR next to your tourniquet?


:)


.

williejc
10-11-13, 10:01
Sugar/honey has been successful in wound treatment because the sugar molecules cause water to diffuse from inside bacterial cell to the outside. Osmosis is the diffusion of water across a cell membrane from a region of higher molecular conc. of water molecules to a region of lower conc. of water molecules. Addition of sugar lowers the water molecule conc. outside the bacterial cell--relative to inside the cell. Direction of osmosis from in to out removes enough water to kill the bacterial cells. Salt works the same way but with sodium and chloride ions and not whole molecules as in sugar.

My opinion is that sugar therapy would be useful only if other care was not available, but one would have to be familiar with a protocol other than grab the sugar bowl.

Hmac
10-11-13, 12:15
That theory has been put forward relative to treatment of chronic, poorly-healing wounds. Nothing to do with an acute traumatic injury.

cdb
10-11-13, 15:08
Here's a small study that directly investigates the antimicrobial effects of sugar:

http://www.ijest.info/docs/IJEST10-02-03-24.pdf

Their results show that a 2.5% concentration of sugar effectively retards bacterial growth for several days in their test protocol.

No directly applicable to wound care, but interesting nonetheless as evidence that sugar has antimicrobial properties.

Hmac
10-11-13, 15:20
Here's a small study that directly investigates the antimicrobial effects of sugar:

http://www.ijest.info/docs/IJEST10-02-03-24.pdf

Their results show that a 2.5% concentration of sugar effectively retards bacterial growth for several days in their test protocol.

No directly applicable to wound care, but interesting nonetheless as evidence that sugar has antimicrobial properties.

So does the sulfa powder that they used in wounds in WWII. Certainly a more effective antibacterial source, not to mention quite a bit more practical. If topical antibiotics were an important component of acute wound care these days, we could certainly come up with something more effective than a breakfast condiment.

Anyway, yes. Honey is bacteriostatic. The reason it can sit edible in your cupboard for so long.

cdb
10-11-13, 15:34
So does the sulfa powder that they used in wounds in WWII. Certainly a more effective antibacterial source, not to mention quite a bit more practical. If topical antibiotics were an important component of acute wound care these days, we could certainly come up with something more effective than a breakfast condiment.

Anyway, yes. Honey is bacteriostatic. The reason it can sit edible in your cupboard for so long.

As I said, not directly applicable to wound care. Only posted for the benefit of those earlier in the thread who expressed concern that sugar increases bacterial growth.


I would never consider sugar as it might just as easily provide a growth medium for bacteria.


I would suggest no. I do not like the idea of putting a sugary organic material in a wound that is most likely laden with bacteria. That is just a setup for trouble.


Regarding the fear of giving sugar to bacteria, I am not sure. There is one school of thought that goes: excess sugar is used to preserve fruit, because in high concentrations, sugar makes for a hostile environment for bacteria...

I'd like to see any scientific evidence...

Gutshot John
10-11-13, 15:41
The problem with a specific concentration of sugar is that it doesn't maintain that concentration unless you keep adding sugar.

The osmotic effect pulls fluid from the system and dilutes the concentration, eventually becoming a medium for bugs.

Honey is always bacteriostatic by its nature. Sugar is not.

That said, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

I've yet to see anyone make a convincing case that sugar has a realistic role to play other than in coffee.