View Full Version : Form 1, no engraving?
I have a friend who is going to help me with an sbr build. I currently have a complete LMT rifle, which I will be using to start the process. I will be purchasing an LMT 10.5" upper when all is approved.
My buddy works at a gun store and they say with a form 1, I don't need to have the lower engraved because is was purchased as an assembled lower from LMT.
I know ignorance of the law does not excuse breaking it, so I wanted to ask all of you. Does that sound right?
polymorpheous
02-20-12, 16:12
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82616
I have a friend who is going to help me with an sbr build. I currently have a complete LMT rifle, which I will be using to start the process. I will be purchasing an LMT 10.5" upper when all is approved.
My buddy works at a gun store and they say with a form 1, I don't need to have the lower engraved because is was purchased as an assembled lower from LMT.
I know ignorance of the law does not excuse breaking it, so I wanted to ask all of you. Does that sound right?
No, it's not right. The manufacturer of the receiver (LMT) has to engrave with a serial number and their company name and location. You, as the maker of the SBR, have to engrave with your name, city, state too.
Read the thread here on M4C www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26703 "Dumbest things overheard at the gun store". Your buddy's advice qualifies for that thread.
NoveskeFan
02-20-12, 16:24
You are "manufacturing" a SBR with the Form 1, and must engrave it. This is why the form has a "Box h."
You are "manufacturing" a SBR with the Form 1, and must engrave it. This is why the form has a "Box h."
BATFE, in the NFA Handbook, distiguishes between being a "manufacturer" and a "maker".
That's what I thought. Thanks guys.
Note that the BATFE allows a lot of latitude in engraving. The engraving itself can be as small as a 1/16th inch high font, and you can engrave in an inconspicuous location, as long as it's visible without disassembling the gun. My SBRs are all engraved inside the trigger well.
NoveskeFan
02-20-12, 17:34
BATFE, in the NFA Handbook, distiguishes between being a "manufacturer" and a "maker".
My error with the lingo.
Not to be too pedantic about it, and not really in disagreement with anyone, but from ATF Form 1 instructions, under section 1. Definitions:
i: Make. The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under the NFA) , putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.
If you own it on a form 1, it needs engraved. If it is on a form 4, you dont need to engrave.
Not to be too pedantic about it, and not really in disagreement with anyone, but from ATF Form 1 instructions, under section 1. Definitions:
:)
Thank you for the clarification.
Makes you wonder what other bad information they are putting out.
infidelprodigy
02-21-12, 12:33
You are "manufacturing" a SBR with the Form 1, and must engrave it. This is why the form has a "Box h."
I put nothing in box "H" except 6.8mm as I was looking at a 12.5" upper at the time (SBR is a 10.5" 5.56)
This is a direct quote from the instructions page of the form 1 concerning box H:
h. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being
modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm
into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item
4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA
firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered
into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g
So all of you who insist on engraving your lowers, did you enter what you engraved in box 4a?
You see what I'm saying? Thing can be read either way and everywhere I look, some say yes, some say no.
I think I will err on the side of caution and engrave it.
NoveskeFan
02-21-12, 15:16
I put nothing in box "H" except 6.8mm as I was looking at a 12.5" upper at the time (SBR is a 10.5" 5.56)
This is a direct quote from the instructions page of the form 1 concerning box H:
h. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being
modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm
into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item
4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA
firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered
into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g
So all of you who insist on engraving your lowers, did you enter what you engraved in box 4a?
Um...what Form 1 are you using? Box 4c is for caliber. Any lower you buy that has a factory serial number would call for placement of that # in 4g. Not sure what you are referring to with "(SBR is a 10.5" 5.56)" Also, your instructions for box h are not for box h. Box 4a is for the original manufacturers information. If you are SBR'ing a BCM, then BCM's name and address would go in 4a.
I put nothing in box "H" except 6.8mm as I was looking at a 12.5" upper at the time (SBR is a 10.5" 5.56)
This is a direct quote from the instructions page of the form 1 concerning box H:
h. Serial Numbers and other Markings. If an existing firearm is being
modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm
into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item
4a. Do not Alter or Modify the Existing Serial Number. If the NFA
firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered
into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g
So all of you who insist on engraving your lowers, did you enter what you engraved in box 4a?
Box 4H is where you would enter what it is that you're going to have engraved on the receiver - the name, city, state of the "maker", which is you.
infidelprodigy
02-21-12, 17:48
Um...what Form 1 are you using? Box 4c is for caliber. Any lower you buy that has a factory serial number would call for placement of that # in 4g. Not sure what you are referring to with "(SBR is a 10.5" 5.56)" Also, your instructions for box h are not for box h. Box 4a is for the original manufacturers information. If you are SBR'ing a BCM, then BCM's name and address would go in 4a.
Look at page 3 of the 4 page packet that is a standard form 1. I simply cut and pasted the instructions for box h. I never mentioned box 4c at any point. the phrase "10.5" 5.56" was just as a reference for what my SBR is and why the only thing I listed in box h was "6.8mm.
infidelprodigy
02-21-12, 17:50
Box 4H is where you would enter what it is that you're going to have engraved on the receiver - the name, city, state of the "maker", which is you.
And I did not do that and the NFA branch approved my Form 1 a year ago now. The only thing listed in my box h is "6.8mm" on a whim I thought I might have another caliber.
The ATF didn't blink an eye that I didn't list my name or address in box H.
Again I ask, where does it IMPLICITLY state that you must engrave and that what you engrave MUST be listed in box H of a Form 1. All the rules I have seen in regards to engraving comes from the rulebook for NFA manufacturers or dealers.
NoveskeFan
02-21-12, 18:21
Look at page 3 of the 4 page packet that is a standard form 1. I simply cut and pasted the instructions for box h. I never mentioned box 4c at any point. the phrase "10.5" 5.56" was just as a reference for what my SBR is and why the only thing I listed in box h was "6.8mm.
My understanding from reading the manual is that you, as the person assembling a SBR from a ready made lower, must include the original manufacturer info (as already on the lower), as well as your info, since you're turning it into the SBR.
6.2.1 "The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model,
and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The
marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to
section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements."
And I did not do that and the NFA branch approved my Form 1 a year ago now. The only thing listed in my box h is "6.8mm" on a whim I thought I might have another caliber.
The ATF didn't blink an eye that I didn't list my name or address in box H.
Again I ask, where does it IMPLICITLY state that you must engrave and that what you engrave MUST be listed in box H of a Form 1. All the rules I have seen in regards to engraving comes from the rulebook for NFA manufacturers or dealers.
You can read the NFA in its entirety, or a synopsis and a clarification via the NFA Handbook. There really isnt a question that the
maker of the SBR needs to to engrave. And just because your Form 1 was approved with an empty box 4H doesnt relieve you of the responsibility to do so according to the law.
Just posted this up in another thread:
CHAPTER 6. MAKING NFA FIREARMS BY NONLICENSEE (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-6.pdf) - Straight from ATF site, 6.2.1 paragraph 2 and 3 discuss required marking for manufacturers and makers.
It references 27 C.F.R. § 479.102 (http://law.justia.com/cfr/title27/27-2.0.1.2.4.7.27.2.html), which covers the markings that are required and the minimum depth/height for them.
Serial number is already there if you are using a Form 1 on a lower so the maker must then add their name (or trust name) and their city, state because they are 'making' the NFA firearm.
As cheap as engraving can be I don't know why anyone would want to risk not doing it.
There is really no debate that the law requires the engraving, just poor internet advice. Here is the law:
Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping...
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/aprqtr/27cfr479.102.htm
Inkslinger
02-21-12, 20:17
You can read the NFA in its entirety, or a synopsis and a clarification via the NFA Handbook. There really isnt a question that the
maker of the SBR needs to to engrave. And just because your Form 1 was approved with an empty box 4H doesnt relieve you of the responsibility to do so according to the law.
Wouldn't that make the form incomplete? Would they approve an incomplete form? Mine is engraved, but I have two LEO buddies that "swear" it doesn't need it and neither of them have. I'll have to ask them the next time I talk to them, if and what they filled out in 4h.
Hell, I'll engrave a thank you note to the ATF agent. I'm the only one that has to see it. I'm not worried about the resale value of something I'm never going to sell.
The law, as referenced by ToddK above, is clear. The rifle has to be engraved with all that stuff.
Sure, I can see Form 1s approved with nothing in box 4H. I'm not sure box 4H even matters. I can also see local LEOs being unfamiliar with Federal law.
infidelprodigy
02-21-12, 22:19
Every examiner I have spoke to said your name and address did not need to appear in box h of a Form 1. Some stated that "it wouldn't hurt", but not one said you have to.
End of the day it's all our own asses and we aren't each others' lawyers.
I discussed this with Dana Pickles last year. The paperwork has to match the person shooting the weapon/device. The name/city/state engraved on the gun has to be the same as the name/city/state on the Form1 and the same as the person shooting it. Where box 4H might come into play is when the engraving doesn't match the name/city/state on the Form1, as in a transferred item where ownership has changed.
infidelprodigy
02-22-12, 11:10
I discussed this with Dana Pickles last year. The paperwork has to match the person shooting the weapon/device. The name/city/state engraved on the gun has to be the same as the name/city/state on the Form1 and the same as the person shooting it. Where box 4H might come into play is when the engraving doesn't match the name/city/state on the Form1, as in a transferred item where ownership has changed.
By your last sentence, one would then be using a Form 4 no?
Unless you purchase a factory SBR, you must engrave it with your name, city, state, regardless of what goes in that box.
This needs to be laid to rest...
By your last sentence, one would then be using a Form 4 no?
Good point. I didn't think to bring that up in the discussion. Maybe I'm overinterpreting the concept of engraving not matching the name/city/state on the Form 1. At any rate, Mr. Pickles didn't seem to be overly concerned about the contents of box 4H in the forms that he examines, but he did express the opinion that engraving name/city/state of the maker was necessary. Not really his jurisdiction, I suppose...might be more useful to get the opinion of a BATFE agent who would actually be the one to interpret the law in the field. I've never heard of anyone getting dinged on such an engraving transgression, but from a practical standpoint I don't envision teams of roving BATFE agents on NFA compliance patrol.
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=5689&d=1280067330 http://www.goingquiet.com/GunbrokerPhotos/ATF%20Markings.jpg
mingheemouse
03-14-12, 18:35
I understand why people get confused on this issue. In February 2006, Kenneth Houchens, Chief of the NFA Branch issued a letter stating that no further engraving needed to be added when modifying an existing firearm and adopting the original manufacturer's data on your Form1. Seven days later he claims that this information is correct, but that you "can" place additional information on the weapon at your option.
Houchens goes so far as to state that they were "remiss" (i.e. wrong) in informing a maker that they were "required" to add their Name, City and State.
Three weeks later, Sterling Nixon, Chief of the Firearms Technology Branch (not the NFA branch, as that was Houchens at the time), uses the exact terminology, i.e. "required", in insisting that the maker of an NFA firearm from an existing firearm must engrave their Name, City and State on the firearm.
The point is, the BATFE is often extremely unclear, or vague, or contradictory with their opinion on what is required. Since I would not be willing to bet that an issue involving my firearms would be determined by Houchens and not Nixon on any particular day, I would fall into the CYA school of defensive engraving.
I have included the contradictory Houchens letters for informational purposes.
I have a friend who is going to help me with an sbr build. I currently have a complete LMT rifle, which I will be using to start the process. I will be purchasing an LMT 10.5" upper when all is approved.
My buddy works at a gun store and they say with a form 1, I don't need to have the lower engraved because is was purchased as an assembled lower from LMT.
I know ignorance of the law does not excuse breaking it, so I wanted to ask all of you. Does that sound right?
Only way that could work is if LMT took the lower back, changed the existing serial number in their books from a rifle to an SBR. I know at least one company that was doing that a while ago, Noveske, but that has ended.
I called LMT a year or so ago and they said they could do it. It was honestly more of a PITA than I wanted to deal with. LMT was going to have me mail the lower back to them, buy one of their uppers through a local dealer from LMT and have the old lower and new upper transferred to a local class III dealer to take possession of the gun again, doing a transfer and spending that time, money and energy. Orion has the two of my lowers now, they cashed the check yesterday. Once the lowers are back I am sending off two form 1's to Uncle Sam for the wait.
CarlosDJackal
03-15-12, 16:48
...My buddy works at a gun store and they say with a form 1, I don't need to have the lower engraved because is was purchased as an assembled lower from LMT...
This would only be true of the receiver in question was already registered as an SBR by LMT. At which case you would have to submit a Form 4, not a Form 1.
Really... and the ****ing moon isn't even full tonight.
This thread should have been terminated with extreme prejudice 32 posts ago. Why do those with the ability to nip this stupid shit in the ass refuse to do so?
polymorpheous
03-15-12, 18:33
Really... and the ****ing moon isn't even full tonight.
This thread should have been terminated with extreme prejudice 32 posts ago. Why do those with the ability to nip this stupid shit in the ass refuse to do so?
The report button works.
Eurodriver
03-15-12, 18:55
Really... and the ****ing moon isn't even full tonight.
This thread should have been terminated with extreme prejudice 32 posts ago. Why do those with the ability to nip this stupid shit in the ass refuse to do so?
Are you serious? Do you visit this forum at all?
How many pages did the "Can I use my evil looking AR15 in a home defense shooting or will I go to jail?" thread get to in AR General? 14? 20?
Even after 80 posts people would still chime in with bullshit like "Oh man, a jury is gonna hammer your ass if you shoot a bad guy with a suppressed AR15!!" :rolleyes:
If you are not interested in the discussion then drive on. If all you have to add is bitching and moaning I am not sure how you are helping. I've learned a few things in this thread.
I have too. Thus why I asked. There are letters from the ATF that seem conflicting, which is why I asked for clarification. Regardless, I will engrave to be on the safe side.
Thank you to all who contributed useful information and opinion. No thanks to those bitching about my post..
It's not like I'm asking if I should buy a BCM or DD;)
So all of you who insist on engraving your lowers, did you enter what you engraved in box 4a?
I insisted on following the law and marked my lowers with the info contained in space 3b.
4h is for any extraneous markings (PD names, rack numbers, importer marks, gunsmith marks, proof marks) anything that is not required to be on the gun that might confuse someone in a future investigation.
If you want to hear it from the horses mouth and what examiners are currently looking for on Form 1s, call Martinsburg, WV, 304-616-4500 and ask for Kennth Mason.
I just got my form 1 for correction and i was told i had to engrave my name and city state on it and was told to what to out in box h. This was using a finished lower that already had a manufacturer and serial number.
Hope this helps.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
I just got my form 1 for correction and i was told i had to engrave my name and city state on it and was told to what to out in box h. This was using a finished lower that already had a manufacturer and serial number.
Did they specify how you had to engrave your name? Full name or first initial/lastname....
The problem with regulatory agencies. New boss often means they have the latitude to re-interpret the regulatory polices of the previous boss. One reason the NFA rules are so hard for us ordinary folk to figure out.
Did they specify how you had to engrave your name? Full name or first initial/lastname....
The problem with regulatory agencies. New boss often means they have the latitude to re-interpret the regulatory polices of the previous boss. One reason the NFA rules are so hard for us ordinary folk to figure out.
Even though Title 27 CFR Chaper II, part 479.102, (a), (2), (iii) states that "Your name (or recognized abbreviation)", city and state (state can be abbreviated) should be engraved on the receiver or the barrel. Current supervision in Martinsburg does not allow an abbreviation in the name.
How many times do I have to say this?
Even though Title 27 CFR Chaper II, part 479.102, (a), (2), (iii) states that "Your name (or recognized abbreviation)", city and state (state can be abbreviated) should be engraved on the receiver or the barrel. Current supervision in Martinsburg does not allow an abbreviation in the name.
How many times do I have to say this?
A) you're assuming that I read your opinion somewhere
B) you're assuming I believe you and have no need to seek another source of information
Hmac
Not trying to start anything but you and others have been all over this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93093&page=2
You don't have to take my word for it. Pick up the damn phone and call Kennth Mason in Martinsburg, WV.
Or, I can put you in touch with the ATF Compliance Officer I spent 5 hours with the other week.
Did they specify how you had to engrave your name? Full name or first initial/lastname....
The problem with regulatory agencies. New boss often means they have the latitude to re-interpret the regulatory polices of the previous boss. One reason the NFA rules are so hard for us ordinary folk to figure out.
Yes in the letter i was told what to put in the h box and it was my complete trust with no abbreviations.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Hmac
Not trying to start anything
Nor am I. But NFA is a confusing landscape with seemingly wide variability in rules and enforcement. The law itself is vague, and apparently there are many aspects subject to regulatory interpretation. My conversation with Dana Pickles on my last SBR about a year ago told me that first initial and last name was fine, and that form was approved. He had me change a couple of things on my application form, but not the way the name was engraved. Certainly there could be a change in policy in that interval. But you're right...before I submit another Form 1, I'll call.
Even though Title 27 CFR Chaper II, part 479.102, (a), (2), (iii) states that "Your name (or recognized abbreviation)", city and state (state can be abbreviated) should be engraved on the receiver or the barrel. Current supervision in Martinsburg does not allow an abbreviation in the name.
As I understand it currently the ATF only "recognizes" USPS abbreviations or a Manufacturer's abbreviation with an approved variance.
If your approved Form 1 has "J Doe" in 4H I would also personally consider it "recognized".
As I understand it currently the ATF only "recognizes" USPS abbreviations or a Manufacturer's abbreviation with an approved variance.
If your approved Form 1 has "J Doe" in 4H I would also personally consider it "recognized".
I would too Todd but, apparently the person currently in charge does not.
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