View Full Version : NH Man Arrested for Firing Gun into the Ground
CarlosDJackal
02-21-12, 13:32
NH man arrested for firing gun into the ground while capturing robber (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/21/new-hampshire-man-faces-felony-charge-after-firing-gun-into-ground-near-burglar/?test=latestnews)
This is why we were taught not to fire any warning shots. IMHO, the man screwed up because he put others in danger from the possible ricochet.
However, I think it is bogus that he will be charged for a felony for something like this. I hope they just let him off with a warning. JM2CW.
I'm not a proponent of warning shots. However, anyone complicit in charging this man with a crime should be shot themselves. No one was harmed and it ended with the bad guy being put in jail.
I just read about this independently and came over to M4c to post about it.
Setting aside the issue of warning shots, it's just infuriating that this guy, who has a totally clean record and a legally owned pistol, could be arrested under the circumstances. OK, so it's illegal to fire your pistol except in direct self-defense, but what about when (a) your house has been robbed, (b) the burglar obviously just robbed the neighbor's house and is exiting it, and (c) you don't want to let him run off with your stuff but you feel endangered. Something very like this happened in TX and the property owner was let go, under MUCH more extreme circumstances.
I too hope he gets off with a warning, even if he was "guilty" of violating some NH statute.
ForTehNguyen
02-21-12, 19:00
funny, a guy here in Houston did the same thing with a .50 Desert Eagle when someone was getting robbed on his street and the cops didnt care. Havent seen any articles showing they were gonna charge him
funny, a guy here in Houston did the same thing with a .50 Desert Eagle when someone was getting robbed on his street and the cops didnt care. Havent seen any articles showing they were gonna charge him
I think this is the same story you're talking about with video: http://www.khou.com/news/Bellaire-man-chases-down-suspect-after-neighbor-robbed-at-gunpoint-139325908.html
Here's the TX case I was thinking of, it's where the guy saw the robbers exiting the neighbor's house, confronted them with a shotgun, and killed them even while he was on phone with 911. There are differences obviously from the OP's incident, but in PRINCIPLE, there are similarities because it was someone else's house, he didn't HAVE to confront the robbers but chose to, and when he felt threatened, he responded (with deadly force in this case, with only the threat of force in the OP's story).
Maybe the moral of this story is, if you want to shoot BG's and have a better chance of not going to jail, move to TX. I've been considering it anyway (for job reasons).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
I'm not a proponent of warning shots. However, anyone complicit in charging this man with a crime should be shot themselves. No one was harmed and it ended with the bad guy being put in jail.
Agreed
My wife fired a warning shot once and it surely kept me from having to put a .357 hollow point into the chest of a man advancing at me with a frog gig. I was glad I didn't have to kill him. I had asked him twice to drop it and he kept advancing on me with it and was getting in position to strike me with it even though I had my handgun aimed at him in full view.
I didn't even know she was packing.
As a former NH resident, this story is embarrassing (and not because of the Gentleman's actions...)
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DeltaSierra
02-21-12, 21:21
As a former NH resident, this story is embarrassing (and not because of the Gentleman's actions...)
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Are you familiar with the seacoast area of the state? It is, for all practical purposes, Northern Massachusetts in terms of political and police procedure.
This also shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that knows the NH laws on justified use of force.
I don't know whether or not this guy was justified in his actions, but I am not in the least bit surprised that he should be arrested and charged, considering the location, and general attitude in that part of the state.
Are you familiar with the seacoast area of the state? It is, for all practical purposes, Northern Massachusetts in terms of political and police procedure.
Yes, I am aware of that. The border area has some areas as well where the Massholes have settled.
While my brother did get his NFA stuff signed (more than 10 years ago) in Nashua, it took a week of going back and they looked at him like he had 3 heads for want to register an NFA item...
It is still embarrassing how this man was treated.
This also shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that knows the NH laws on justified use of force.
I don't know whether or not this guy was justified in his actions, but I am not in the least bit surprised that he should be arrested and charged, considering the location, and general attitude in that part of the state.
IMHO, the man screwed up because he put others in danger from the possible ricochet.
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What do you propose as a safer direction to fire a warning shot? Up? I think into the ground is probably the safest place to discharge a firearm.
That aside, this whole thing is pure horseshit. This was a decent guy who didn't want to shoot or kill anyone unless he was forced to. He went out of his way to spare the life of a guy who robbed him. And he gets arrested for it?
As some have noted, he's have probably been better off killing the guy and then claiming he fired in defense of his life. But how completely ridiculous is it that a decent person has to become a killer in order to protect himself.
So apparently in NH your choices are:
1. Call 911 and watch a guy who just robbed you get away with it and feel like a helpless idiot and spend the rest of your life trying to reconcile with what a chump you are.
2. Become a killer and make up a cover story about being forced to shoot and spend the rest of your life hoping it doesn't come back to haunt you.
There really was a time in this country when a man didn't have to put up with namby pamby shit like this.
CarlosDJackal
02-23-12, 12:24
What do you propose as a safer direction to fire a warning shot? Up? I think into the ground is probably the safest place to discharge a firearm.
Based on the information available, it did not seem like he had to fire a warning shot at all. And that is where in my opinion he screwed up. Take it FWIW, I am looking at it form the perspective that the only time anyone should discharge their firearm is when someone's life is in danger.
Are their situations where a missed shot did as well or even better than an actual hit? Of course there are. But you really don't know if it will turn out alright until after the fact. IMHO, a warning shot not only opens you up to a possible lawsuit (should your stray round strike an innocent bystander) but it delays your ability to put a round into the attacker.
In the 11+ years I have been teaching Basic Pistol and Personal Protection classes, I have come across a handful who insists that they would fire a warning shot. When I point out that their shots into the air has to land somewhere and that any shots into the ground can skim that ground and hit someone down the street; just about each person would proudly exclaim that they would shoot at the nearest wall or tree!! :eek:
Most of them never think about the possibility that the round will go through the wall or that they would miss the tree and hit whoever is on the other side. And this is the problem. You can never tell what a bullet will do and where it will go when you shoot into unintended surfaces (ground, wall, tree, car's hood, tires, etc.).
That aside, this whole thing is pure horseshit. This was a decent guy who didn't want to shoot or kill anyone unless he was forced to. He went out of his way to spare the life of a guy who robbed him. And he gets arrested for it?...
I totally agree!! If I were the responding Officer or the DA, I might give this gentleman a lesson on what circumstances he is expected to discharge a firearm. But there is no way I would charge him with anything especially since not only did he have no intent to harm or kill anyone; he did not harm or kill anyone.
I hope they return all of his firearms they confiscated immediately.
"I didn't think I could handle this guy physically, so I fired into the ground," Fleming told FoxNews.com. "He stopped. He knew I was serious. I was angry … and I was worried that this guy was going to come after me."
Mens rea anyone.
"I didn't know it was illegal [to fire into the ground], but I had to make that guy realize I was serious," Fleming said. "I've got a clean record. I really don't want to be convicted."
Moral of the story: Aim center mass.
Voodoo_Man
02-23-12, 13:44
Just because a person is charged with a crime does not mean they are guilty or going to be convicted of anything.
DA's have a tendency to appease everyone, charging and dismissing charges alike.
JBecker 72
02-23-12, 13:52
Just because a person is charged with a crime does not mean they are guilty or going to be convicted of anything.
DA's have a tendency to appease everyone, charging and dismissing charges alike.
How much money do you have to burn in your defense? Yeah you might be found not guilty, but you will also rack up a shit load of legal fees that ultimately you are responsible for.
****ing disgusting the way our legal system works.
Voodoo_Man
02-23-12, 14:05
How much money do you have to burn in your defense? Yeah you might be found not guilty, but you will also rack up a shit load of legal fees that ultimately you are responsible for.
****ing disgusting the way our legal system works.
I agree.
But what is the recourse for him? He either goes to court and defends himself or goes to jail.
He was in control of his actions and this is the result, everyone has to take responsibility for their actions, no one is different or an exception.
Having a firearm is an added responsibility we all take upon ourselves.
If he fired a "warning shot" to stop the person from fleeing from a property crime he did the wrong thing.
If he fired into the ground to stop someone from attacking him that makes more sense to me.
Smuckatelli
02-23-12, 14:43
There appears to me more to the story:
Fleming related Saturday afternoon's events to Foster's on Monday, saying it began when he arrived at his 1826 farmhouse, which has been in his family for decades, at approximately 1:45 p.m. and found drawers opened and his belongings scattered around the house.
He said he couldn't tell right away if anything from his home was missing, and that after about 10 or 15 minutes of checking his house for damage and stolen items, he noticed a man walking down the street with a backpack.
"I said, 'That can't be him,'" Fleming said Monday, but decided to see if it was, driving his truck down the road.
After he did not find the man, Fleming said he went back to his house, grabbed his gun, and decided to walk down the street to talk with neighbors and find out if they had seen anyone suspicious in the area.
It was on this walk that he saw the man with the backpack, later identified to be Hebert, again, coming out of a neighbor's back window.
"I heard, 'Crash, bang boom!', and he came flying out the back window," Fleming said. It was later determined Hebert had left Fleming's house in a similar fashion, jumping from a second-story window about 15 feet down to the ground.
What happened next Fleming said was a result of him acting on an instinct to not only stop the man, but protect himself.
"I had drawn my gun ... I had a bypass last year, I have a bad knee, bad back, I don't want this guy to come at me," he said Monday. "I yelled, 'Freeze!' and fired my gun into the ground."
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120221/GJNEWS_01/702219939/-1/FOSNEWS
Initially I thought that he noticed his place was broken into, looked out and saw the guy coming out of another house. It turns out he spent about 10-15 minutes in his house, took off looking for the guy in his truck, returned home got his gun and then went out on foot and then spotted the guy coming out of someone's house.
He would have been better off not talking too the local newspaper.
Stuff like this will stop when the attorney generals of the states, or the federal government start charging DA's and other sworn officials with treason for violating the unlimited privileges and immunities of citizens.
As a current NH resident, trust me, we aren't all as screwed up in the head as the prosecutor in this case.
Based on the information available, it did not seem like he had to fire a warning shot at all. And that is where in my opinion he screwed up. Take it FWIW, I am looking at it form the perspective that the only time anyone should discharge their firearm is when someone's life is in danger.
It sounds like he "believed" he had to fire a warning shot in order to be taken seriously. He was there, I wasn't, I have to defer to the victim.
Moose-Knuckle
02-24-12, 01:31
Moral of the story: Aim center mass.
This.
woodandsteel
02-24-12, 04:43
It looks like the DA is dropping the charges.
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120223/NEWS03/120229969/0/santafund
"My review of this situation was based on the circumstances under which the shot was fired and whether other citizens were placed or may have been placed in danger of serious bodily injury. The facts available at the scene on Saturday supported the charge of felony reckless conduct, but subsequent facts discovered since have led me to believe that such a charge under these circumstances would be unjust," Velardi said in a news release.
Good quote from the DA. It sounds like the best call in a screwed up situation.
It looks like the DA is dropping the charges.
Common sense prevails for a change.
CarlosDJackal
02-24-12, 11:29
It looks like the DA is dropping the charges.
"My review of this situation was based on the circumstances under which the shot was fired and whether other citizens were placed or may have been placed in danger of serious bodily injury. The facts available at the scene on Saturday supported the charge of felony reckless conduct, but subsequent facts discovered since have led me to believe that such a charge under these circumstances would be unjust," Velardi said in a news release.
BE-AU-TI-FUL!!
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