View Full Version : What is the most RELIABLE 9mm Carbine?
Rmplstlskn
12-23-07, 22:12
... not in an AR platform? (Somewhat OT, I know...)
Still pondering a Carbine for my SMALL wife (4"-11" and less than 120 pounds)...
Since she is not going to shoot as often as I am, I think the .223 cartridge is too powerful for her REALISTIC skill sets, so I am looking into the 9mm possibilities... but I'm ignorant of these carbines, so please advise.
#1 goal: RELIABLE
#2 goal: 9mm (or .40 S&W)
What about the Beretta STORM?
Help...
Rmpl
Robb Jensen
12-23-07, 22:22
For a carbine 9mm (not a Colt AR) I'd go with a HK MP5.
If we look at the whole package, meaning reliablity, ergonomics, and shootability, I'd have to say that for under $3K, and not an AR based system, the Beretta Storm would get my vote.
Very decent ergo's, reliable with factory and Mec-Gar mags, and very simple to use.
The Uzi is an extremely robust system, and the original pre-89 import IMI Model A's and B's can be had for around $1K if you shop around, but the ergo's aren't great and they're heavy.
If you're willing to spend the money, then a real HK 94 would be an excellent choice. Many of the clones are problematic though.
I find the recoil of my 9mm AR to be harsher than that of a 5.56 AR. Just an FYI if you haven't fired one before.
With that said, for a non-AR 9mm I'd go with a Storm. We have two Storm shooters at our matches and they run them quite well and without any issues that I've witnessed to date.
I guess this would be a good excuse to get a HK94! Best shooting 9mm out there that I've shot. And they should be for what they cost!
Spooky
What type of shooting is she going to be doing??? self defense, hunting, tin can, target, three gun???
The reason I ask is that for your requirements in a semi auto the Beretta Storm is a nice carbine, but I am thinking of going a different direction...
You may want to look at an older design, way older, like 1873 older...
I am a big fan of the Uberti 1873 Winchester saddle ring carbines in .357 magnum caliber... They have been imported by Cimmiron, Navy Arms, Cabellas, EMF, Taylors, and several others, but they are all made in Italy by Uberti, which is owned by Beretta / Benelli and they have very high quality control...
Thanks to the cowboy shooters, parts are everywhere, and very inexpensive...
The toggle link 1873 lever action carbines are very light, fast, and accurate with almost no felt recoil. They will eat any 38 special / .357 magnum ammo that you can feed them, from mild to wild, with ZERO malfunctions... A full house .357 semi jacketed hollow point coming out of a 20 inch carbine barrel is in a whole different class than most pistols , or a mild 38 special, round nose lead round, can ping steel out to say 100 yards with no problems...
It may seem a little different, but I think you will be very happy with a 73 if you go that route...
Just my .02
Buck
As stated, it all depends on what she wil be doing with it. I've had my own carbines, Storm, Colt, RRA, Real Uzi, Vector Uzi, Bobcat, real HK 94. Shot plenty of MP5's. If you can do a HK, get it! if not, get the Storm. Recoil is a tad more than an AR, but muzzle blast isn't there. I would have a good brake installed. The spacers allow for fit as well. Oh, forgot the Sten--fun fun fun
I guess there's the Marlin Camp 9 and the Ruger, can't speak for the Ruger, but the Camp doesn't hold up well.
Mark
What is available in the way of muzzle devices for the 9mm in terms of brakes?
Is there enough meat on the Storm for threading?
I bought a YHM Wraith QD can which uses the mount below. It would be cool as hell to SBR a Storm and put a mount on it, although probably not worth the trouble.
There's a few, I would check out the Beretta Forums, some people have done them. One I would go with is the Holland quick discharge brake, very effective, I have one on my .308 and it feels like a .223, the rifle is 6 lbs. Alot of brakes have to be reamed out for the caliber. The one issue with the Storm is the serial number is on the barrel portion that you would cut, unless they've changed the location on them. I think you can get an inch, maybe two off it, so it's not worth it. I'm not sure if the serial number can be relocated.
I noticed theirs has the top vents now. As you see, you choose the correct thread pitch and diameter.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=6905&s=
Mark
I know you asked for a 9mm or 40cal, but have you considered the FN PS90? They are very easy to use, have a large magazine capacity (50 rounds), are very mild in recoil, and are totally ambidextrous. The PS90 is very pleasant to shoot; so much so that I think a petite female who may not be into guns would do well with it. The 5.7 is somewhat anemic, but I think for the purpose you're describing it may fit the bill. If you do go this route, get the model with the picatinney rail and add an Aimpoint. The factory sight SUCKS.
Edited to add: MERRY Christmas everyone!!
I know you asked for a 9mm or 40cal, but have you considered the FN PS90? They are very easy to use, have a large magazine capacity (50 rounds), are very mild in recoil, and are totally ambidextrous. The PS90 is very pleasant to shoot; so much so that I think a petite female who may not be into guns would do well with it. The 5.7 is somewhat anemic, but I think for the purpose you're describing it may fit the bill. If you do go this route, get the model with the picatinney rail and add an Aimpoint. The factory sight SUCKS.
Edited to add: MERRY Christmas everyone!!
I sold my PS90 after my wife decided she didn't like it... I think she doesn't like to shoot is the real reason! That being said I think the ammo is too expensive for what you get...
Spooky
Rmplstlskn
12-26-07, 09:50
I am a big fan of the Uberti 1873 Winchester saddle ring carbines in .357 magnum caliber...
Interesting alternative... Cheap too... :D The ammo is not as cheap as 9mm, but easily handloaded... I am going to look into this route further as the lack of "complexity" may put her at ease with it whereas the AR intimidates her with all the buttons, levers and moving parts. Her concern is under stress, with her limited training time, she may not do the right thing with an AR and not keep it running, thus putting the family at risk when danger lurks...
Thanks everyone for the input so far!
Some of my thoughts after reading the replies...
I'm surprised to hear that 9mm carbines have more felt recoil than the .223... Reduced recoil was one of my main goals if I was to take her away from the AR platform.
If so, maybe I need to rethink the AR platform for her but with a good BRAKE rather than a FS... GotM4, how is that new brake working on your wife's AR?
I would love to get her an HK, but way too much $$$...
The PS90 is cool looking, light and short, but that ammo is expensive. I haven't checking into the reload possibilities of that round yet...
I'm partial to the UZI, however for most people the ergonomics of the Beretta Storm is probably the best route. When thinking felt recoil, consider the bullet weight as the single most determining factor. Good luck.
white spaniard
12-26-07, 12:13
what mags does the Storm take regular Beretta pistol mags?
Some people think a lever carbine is s too slow, put it is very easy to use and with some practice it can be very fast...
Here are a few shooters showing what a lever carbine can do.... They are starting on a empty chamber with the hammer down, then shooting ten rounds on steel for time, with no misses... The lack of recoil is truly amazing, I do not think very many AR shooters could shoot their AR carbines as fast...
http://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/RifleDeuceStevens196.wmv
http://www.jspublications.net/records/SantaFeRiverStanRifle204.wmv
http://www.jspublications.net/records/DeuceStevensRifle211.wmv
what mags does the Storm take regular Beretta pistol mags?
yes...
white spaniard
12-26-07, 12:26
Some people think a lever carbine is s too slow, put it is very easy to use and with some practice it can be very fast...
Here is a few shooters showing what a lever carbine can do.... They are starting on a empty chamber with the hammer down, then shooting ten rounds on steel for time, with no misses... The lack of recoil is truly amazing, I do not think very many AR shooters could shoot their AR carbines as fast...
http://www.spencerhoglund.com/files/RifleDeuceStevens196.wmv
http://www.jspublications.net/records/SantaFeRiverStanRifle204.wmv
http://www.jspublications.net/records/DeuceStevensRifle211.wmv
Buck do you happen to know the Cal on the rifles?
Buck do you happen to know the Cal on the rifles?
I believe thay are all .357s...
i like the lever gun option. ive got a winchester trapper in .357, and it shoots well in anyones hands. my 11 year old daughter Haley is intimidated by any AR style rifle as well as the mini 14, but shes been shooting the winchester for almost 2 years now with any ammo out to 100 yards.
Rmplstlskn
12-26-07, 21:09
Well, I think the verdict is finally in...
Tonight we happened to be in Richmond so we stopped into Greentop, a large, low-AR inventory, hunting type of gun store to check out some of the lever action rifles... NO GO!
The length of pull was too long and she did not find any of them comfortable, except for the youth 22LR's... :eek: So the lever actions are out...
They had a Colt 6920 (I think) in stock, a collapsible stock 16" lightweight with A2 receiver, which she LOVED!!! So it seems I am back to square one... (for those who remember the wife quandary thread awhile ago).
Either build her a lightweight carbine from scratch (cheapest route) or just jump in and buy a complete Colt lightweight (pricey) and have a full warranty and Colt quality.
So there it is.... DONE!
Thanks all for the advice...
Rmpl
If you want a quality AR carbine at a great price, Grant's end of the year LMT sale is hard to beat...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9940
Buck
yes...
But some Storms take the M9/92FS mag and some take the mags of other Beretta pistols- the Cougar or something like that. I'm not up on those newer pistols.
They take their respective Beretta magazines the same as the pistols...
The 9mm take 92 magazines, the 40 cal takes 96 magazines, and the 45 takes cougar magazines
Not quite from what I heard.
To be safe, I looked it up. Different calibers and different models depending on mags used:
Cx4 Carbine, 40 S&W JX49610M 40 S & W
Cx4 Carbine, 8000 Carbine JX48010M 9 mm
Cx4 Carbine, 8040 Carbine JX48410M 40 S & W
Cx4 Carbine, 8045 Carbine JX48510 45 Auto
Cx4 Carbine, 92 Carbine JX49210M 9 mm
Cx4 Px4 Carbine JX4P415 40 S & W
Cx4 Px4 Carbine JX4P915 9 mm
Cx4 Storm Jx49610 40 S & W
Cx4 Storm JX48520 45 Auto
Cx4 Storm JX49T90 9 mm
Well you learn something new every day... The 9mms and 40 cals will all take 92 or 96 magazines, but you may have to change the magazine insert and magazine release if you have one designed for the cougar or PX4 mag...
Converting magazine type in the CX4 Storm
Question
Can the CX4 Storm be converted to accept different model pistol magazines?
Answer
Yes. The CX4 Storm carbine has been available in 3 configurations per caliber, based on the magazine type used. In 9mm or .40 caliber, the carbine is available to accept 92/96 series magazines, 8000 Cougar series magazines or PX4 Storm magazines . In the 45 Auto version, we only offer 1 magazine type so a conversion is not needed.
The magazine type that a CX4 Carbine accepts can be changed by replacing the magazine insert and magazine release button. We recommend that a gunsmith perform the conversion. The following part numbers are needed in order to use the magazine from another model:
92/96 magazines require the C5A511 insert and C89109 release button.
8000/8040 magazines require the C5A670 insert and C89110 release button.
8045 Cougar version uses the C5A671 insert and C89110 release button.
PX4 9mm and .40 caliber magazines require the C5C620 insert and C89210 release button.
The correct magazines for each conversion will also need to be purchased.
Once this change has been made the carbine will not accept the original magazines without re-installing the original parts. Please note that early CX4 Carbines may require minor fitting inside the magazine well when being adapted to use the PX4 magazines...
Either build her a lightweight carbine from scratch (cheapest route) or just jump in and buy a complete Colt lightweight (pricey) and have a full warranty and Colt quality.
Just FYI, Colt 6520s (A2 upper, .625" dia barrel) are available for a shade over $1k. Here (http://www.gunsamerica.com/977000570/Guns/Rifles/Colt-Military-Tactical-Rifles/Colt_AR15_Model_AR_652.htm) is just one example. If you shop around they are available for even less on the used market.
Get her going on the A2, and when you're ready pick up a Colt M4 stripped upper (if you can find the "blemished" that show up from time to time so much the better). Transfer the parts from the A2 to the M4, sell the A2 to recoup most of what you spent on the M4, and you're good to go. You can take that same opportunity to install some type of railed free-float if that's the route you wind up taking. A Daniel Defense 7.0 weighs less than the parts it replaces.
But either way you start out with a Colt that is equal in quality to a 6920 for $200-$300 less.
My first Colts were a pair of 6520s that I picked up for $1k/ea. If Colt would make a 6520 with a flattop and an "F" FSB I think it would be the best model they offer.
KintlaLake
12-27-07, 08:04
I began looking into 9mm carbines a coupla months ago, actually, and I asked Santa to bring me the Cx4 Storm.
:mad:
Gotta get me a bigger stocking...
Rmplstlskn
12-27-07, 09:01
Just FYI, Colt 6520s (A2 upper, .625" dia barrel) are available for a shade over $1k. Here (http://www.gunsamerica.com/977000570/Guns/Rifles/Colt-Military-Tactical-Rifles/Colt_AR15_Model_AR_652.htm) is just one example. If you shop around they are available for even less on the used market.
Yeah, that's the one... a 6520 (Colt AR15 A2)
They wanted just shy of $1400 for a NIB... :eek:
But it will be a cold day in hell before I buy from a "hunter" shop over a committed AR dealer like Grant, GotM4 and others... Even if I have to eat the FFL fee...
Rmpl
Rmplstlskn
12-27-07, 09:52
If you want a quality AR carbine at a great price, Grant's end of the year LMT sale is hard to beat...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9940
Buck
I would if I had the $$$ by 12/31... I won't be ready to buy until 1/4/08... :(
Day late, dollar short... :rolleyes:
Rmpl
Either build her a lightweight carbine from scratch (cheapest route) or just jump in and buy a complete Colt lightweight (pricey) and have a full warranty and Colt quality.
Glad you and your wife have found what fits her best. Given that you are buying this for your wife's use as a defensive carbine in the event this becomes necessary, a tier-1 manufacturer is your only option - go with the Colt.
So you can convert them too? Wow. Sure makes shopping for one hard.
For weight savings, have you considered a pencil barrel upper of your choice (probably Colt) on a Cav Arms lower?
Rmplstlskn
12-28-07, 09:28
For weight savings, have you considered a pencil barrel upper of your choice (probably Colt) on a Cav Arms lower?
Yes on the lightweight barrel... The desire to have a LW mid-gas upper for her has kept me from selling something to get a LMT from Grant before 12/31 sale end...
Not that familiar with Cav Arms lowers... I think they are the polymer ones, right?
Do you have any weights on these compared to a standard aluminum one?
Rmpl
If I recall correctly, the weight savings is something like 1 pound.
I used to have one that I was going to do a build on, and sold it to do something with a telestock. I really regret getting rid of it. It was very light, the pistol grip had ergonomics like the Magpul MIAD grip with the thicker backstrap, and the buttstock was A1 length with a nice grippy rubber buttplate.
My 20" A2 upper felt OK on it, and shooting it like that felt different but definitely better.
Edited to add - saw somewhere else here that someone says the weight savings is half a pound.
Rmplstlskn
12-29-07, 22:10
the buttstock was A1 length with a nice grippy rubber buttplate.
Even the A1 buttstock is too long for her, so the CA is out... She can do it but she looks extended out like those viet-cong kids with M16's you see in pictures... :D
I'm now in a search for a nice Colt 6520...
Rmpl
Even the A1 buttstock is too long for her, so the CA is out... She can do it but she looks extended out like those viet-cong kids with M16's you see in pictures... :D
I'm now in a search for a nice Colt 6520...
Rmpl
Give DeGoff's a call, they should have some in stock and they do layaway.
Even the A1 buttstock is too long for her, so the CA is out... She can do it but she looks extended out like those viet-cong kids with M16's you see in pictures... :D
I'm now in a search for a nice Colt 6520...
Rmpl
Let your fingers do the clicking...
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2146&highlight=colt
Rmplstlskn
12-30-07, 00:40
Let your fingers do the clicking...
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2146&highlight=colt
That's an old thread... He does not have one listed on his web site... I checked.
Rmpl
OOPS.... This is a heavy barrel carbine... Sorry....
Well here is a deal on a Colt 6721...
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=186066
I think it has everything you want and comes with a ARMS rear sight too...
Here are the specs:
http://www.colt.com/law/ar15a3.asp
Hope this helps...
Buck
Rmplstlskn
12-30-07, 09:48
OOPS.... This is a heavy barrel carbine... Sorry....
I am negotiating on a NIB 6520 now for $1100... Thanks though...
Rmpl
I know 2 local guys with these. They run like a top and are a hell of a bargain IMO.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=352
white spaniard
12-31-07, 12:38
I know 2 local guys with these. They run like a top and are a hell of a bargain IMO.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=352
What kind of carbine is this a Ingram mack 10-11?
Looks like a pistol clone of a MAC (probably from an overrun) that had a stock added to it, a rail welded to the top and then a longer barrel along with overstock CAR handguards...
Interesting little frankenguns...
Rmplstlskn
01-13-08, 20:11
Final Update: Found my wife a NIB Colt 6520 16" lightweight Carbine for a good price... Mission Accomplished!
Thanks everyone for their advice, ideas and recommendations... A small stature woman is a hard one to fit to a true fighting carbine...
But OH NO! Imagine the horror when I realized the Colt 6520 DOES NOT HAVE M4 FEED RAMPS!!!!!!!! :eek:
Oh snap! What will I do now.... (Where's that dremel....) :p
(Bad attempt at humor...)
Rmpl
Strange, I own two 6520s and they both have the ramps.
Jay Cunningham
01-13-08, 20:27
Let's keep this on 9mm carbines, please.
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