View Full Version : First build; Am I headed in the right direction?
Hi all, new to AR's and have always wanted to build one and finally took the plunge last week and decided to do it. I've been lurking here and 2 other boards just reading trying to see what people suggest and to get a good idea of things to go for as far as parts. From what I've read (mostly here, but some from AR15.com forums) I've come up with a preliminary list of parts and wanted some suggestions as to whether or not it seems like a good direction to head for my first AR. The purpose of the gun will be solely range shooting, between 100-300yds.
So far I've got a lower I'm waiting on at the local gun store, but that's about it.
The rest of the parts I'm leaning towards will be slowly accumulated during the next 2-3 months, but this is what I was thinking so far:
Ranier Arms Match .223 Wylde Barrel 18"
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2902
Noveske Upper
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle
Daniel Defense Low Profile Gas Block (and gas tube)
ACT Trigger from ALG Defense
Anything I should know about the preceding parts? Anything better for around the same price? Reliability issues with any of those? etc
Also, gonna need a free float rail, but would anything be incompatible with that setup so I know not to look at it when the time comes?
Still iffy on stocks but leaning towards either Magpul ACS or one of those ACE Skeleton stocks...need to find someone locally to see if I can hold em (mounted) and see how they feel first.
Suggestions/input?
Magic_Salad0892
02-22-12, 20:56
If your goals are just shooting between 100-300m, then you'll find that a standard chrome lined 16'' barrel will serve you fine, and be suitable for HD/SD work as well.
Actually even 10.3-11.5'' guns can do out to 500m.
Unless you're intentionally building an SPR rig, then I'd shitcan the 18'' SS barrel, and run a Colt (Specialized Armament), BCM, DD, or Noveske barrel.
I don't know what's significant about a Noveske M4 upper. I'd go VLTOR MUR (preferred, as you can get them without the bolt assist, which I like), or Colt/BCM/DD M4. However, Noveske would be fine as well.
Most FF rails should be compatable with most setups, unless you're going to run something wonky on the gun. KAC, Troy, and DD is all I can recommend you with as they're what I have more experience with. Especially KAC.
Everything else looks good. However, I have no experience with that trigger, I'd roll with Colt USGI, LMT 2-stage, or KAC match.
Maybe somebody else can give you more information on it, or maybe you know more about it than I do.
Stocks I'd recommend are Magpul CTR, Colt M4 GenII, Colt CAR, LMT SOPMOD, or VLTOR. I don't care for others.
Make sure to get a good BCG.
I don't know what you're shooting experience is, so maybe a little bit of background could help us out?
Will this gun ever be an SBR, or suppressor host?
What kind of sighting system do you have in mind?
So far, the parts that you have listed look like a solid build. BUT, as your first build, what is it that a complete rifle cannot give you that this build can? You said that you have a lower receiver waiting, you could easily snap an assembled upper to the lower you have waiting. From the looks of the barrel, it seems as if you are wanted a precision oriented rig. There are plenty of uppers from great companies like BCM, and Noveske that could give you exceptional accuracy. Get an assembled upper and get a quality BCG (BCM, DD, LMT). Before you purchase any part of the upper (if you are dead set on piecing it together) I can only tell you to read, read and READ some more. Learn as much as you can. As far as stocks and rails go, Magic Salad hit the nail on the head. I am partial to DD rails.
I was thinking like a semi-SPR rig. I'd like to be able to grow into it and know that in the event I'd ever like to move out past 300yds that the barrel could accommodate it.
Forgot to mention the BCG, was leaning towards BCM for that.
Can't have a suppressor or anything cool....live in Los Angeles :(
Early reviews seem to be all positive about the trigger, and it seems everyone likes it a lot more than a stock trigger that comes with the avg lower parts kit....but it's not ~$250+ like some of the others which I'm not 100% sure I need (which is why I was leaning towards it). Not sure if I should just get a standard trigger and see how that works for me and then upgrade if necessary...or if I just get that one now (is it really that much better for the money)?
Sights will be the last thing I procure.....not sure what would be necessary for 300yds (max goal of 500 accurately) with a fair degree of accuracy. I LOVE iron sights....hate red-dots. Limited experience with scopes so I'm unfamiliar about what brands are good, what magnification is necessary for my goals, etc other than supposedly Leupold is good. I need to do more research on this for sure, but I figure I can run irons for a while after it's built until I can be sure I'm educated enough on what to get and afford a quality optic. I've heard so far suggestions to get either a 4x ACOG (but isn't the red dot going to cover a large amount of the target at distance?), Trijicon 1-4x accupoint, and a 3-9x Leupold Riflescope.
Background: I only own a Sig handgun, but when I go to the range with my friends they all own various AR's that were complete when bought. I enjoy shooting them, and I'm fairly comfortable with them as well....I just don't want to be "that guy" who always shows up and shoots someone elses gun so I figure it's time to jump in and get my own.
Edit to answer: Rekkr870
I don't like the idea of a complete rifle due to the lack of customization, ie. I'd hate to buy an assembled rifle and decide that I hate the grip, stock, and rail and have to essentially "buy it twice". I considered the assembled upper route, but it seems assembled uppers that are all recommended are wayyyy more money than my proposed parts list. Plus I spent a couple years working towards an engineering degree so I tend to prefer to build things (I'm mechanically inclined so assembly isn't a problem if I have all the right parts in front of me). Perhaps I'm not looking close enough though, would there be anything comprable to what I've listed in terms of quality/potential for accuracy for around the same price range? Minus the rail that I'm not sure about yet it is about $750 for everything listed so far. Really leaning towards the versatility of a 1:8 twist barrel, and would like 18" if possible. Haven't had any luck finding both.
Some general thoughts: I'd get an assembled upper with a chrome 16" barrel for a first AR. Good brands are BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske and for less cost but good quality Spikes and Palmetto.
If it is going to be used for home defense at all, I'd reconsider a red dot sight, they absolutely rule in close quarters, low light and improved qual scores in the Army at ranges from 50-300m over iron sights. If it is going to just be a range gun, a 1-4x scope or an ACOG would be very nice.
Those ALG Defense triggers really look good on paper, but they are new. I'd just rock the GI trigger that comes with the LPK for now, and add an ALG later after they have been tested more by others. Over the next few months the various forums will have high round count reports on those triggers so you don't have to be an early tester...esp. on a first (and only) AR. All 3 of my personal GI triggers (one a RRA, 2 from Palmetto) are a lot better than they were on my issued M16A2s and M4 carbines.
Some general thoughts: I'd get an assembled upper with a chrome 16" barrel for a first AR. Good brands are BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske and for less cost but good quality Spikes and Palmetto.
If it is going to be used for home defense at all, I'd reconsider a red dot sight, they absolutely rule in close quarters, low light and improved qual scores in the Army at ranges from 50-300m over iron sights. If it is going to just be a range gun, a 1-4x scope or an ACOG would be very nice.
Those ALG Defense triggers really look good on paper, but they are new. I'd just rock the GI trigger that comes with the LPK for now, and add an ALG later after they have been tested more by others. Over the next few months the various forums will have high round count reports on those triggers so you don't have to be an early tester...esp. on a first (and only) AR. All 3 of my personal GI triggers (one a RRA, 2 from Palmetto) are a lot better than they were on my issued M16A2s and M4 carbines.
I can't deal with PSA....their customer service so far has been rather disappointing (can't blame anyone other than myself as I decided to order some stuff from them even after reading too many mixed reviews) but I'll start reading up on Spike's uppers. Are they known for accuracy as well as reliability? I ask because I've seen them mentioned in a positive manner in regards to the numerous "who makes a good/reliable upper?" posts everywhere, but never seen them mentioned when people ask about accuracy. Never heard of LMT, but since I was intending on including some parts from BCM and Noveske I'll look into their complete uppers too and see what I can find. Mostly concerned about the barrel....who generally uses the best barrels in their complete uppers? Match grade?
I forgot to take into account how new the ALG trigger was, and you're probably right....I should wait a couple months to see what the consensus is after they've been tested a little longer. I think I'll try the GI trigger first and assess whether it's necessary to upgrade after I've had it for a while.
Won't be using this for home defense, would trust my Sig Sauer over a bullet-buttoned and handicapped AR (did I mention how much I hate California's gun laws yet?) so this is going to be strictly gun range. I was leaning towards a scope instead of ACOG but not sure about ideal magnification (all my friends have red-dots). I'll address that later though.
If you like irons so much, why did you choose a barrel without a fixed sight?
If you like irons so much, why did you choose a barrel without a fixed sight?
Don't like the traditional style sights, actually prefer HK style front sight (a la HK91)....thinking of that or at least a good set of flip-down sights (Troy or MI?).
Don't like the traditional style sights, actually prefer HK style front sight (a la HK91)....thinking of that or at least a good set of flip-down sights (Troy or MI?).
Understood. You'll find the Troy BUIS more recommended than the MI. I have had both and like the Troy more.
You might also want to check out KAC sights as they are more "precision" oriented BUIS.
Understood. You'll find the Troy BUIS more recommended than the MI. I have had both and like the Troy more.
You might also want to check out KAC sights as they are more "precision" oriented BUIS.
Cool, thanks for the suggestion. I'll do some more research on the Troy's vs. KAC's. Do you have any experience with the KAC's?
that barrel is not in stock, if you want it now try to BCM 18" stainless, heard nothing but great accuracy reports on them. plus they are dimpled for a set screw gas block.
noveske upper is just like any forged upper, unless your talking about the vltor one
get KAC micro sights, they are so much better than anything else on the market.
i dont know what type of handguard you want, but the troy industries trx handguards ar nice, i never liked the attachment method ,,but they fixed that with the ALPHA model, i would get that
or go all out and get a dd lite or kac urx3
and get a geissele trigger, and dont look back, they are 100% worth the entry price, you can get a SSA for like $170. buy iron sights later if you have to.
that barrel is not in stock, if you want it now try to BCM 18" stainless, heard nothing but great accuracy reports on them. plus they are dimpled for a set screw gas block.
noveske upper is just like any forged upper, unless your talking about the vltor one
get KAC micro sights, they are so much better than anything else on the market.
i dont know what type of handguard you want, but the troy industries trx handguards ar nice, i never liked the attachment method ,,but they fixed that with the ALPHA model, i would get that
or go all out and get a dd lite or kac urx3
and get a geissele trigger, and dont look back, they are 100% worth the entry price, you can get a SSA for like $170. buy iron sights later if you have to.
Awwww weaksauce! It was in stock 2 days ago when I last browsed....shoulda got it then. Looks like BCM is sold out of everything too. I'll probably just have to wait...
Is the VLTOR heads and tails better? I never saw anything on it before coming here. What benefits would it have over a Noveske or BCM?
Was actually leaning towards the Troy TRX handguards too, I'll probably end up going that route once I settle on the barrel.
justin_247
02-23-12, 03:38
I was thinking like a semi-SPR rig. I'd like to be able to grow into it and know that in the event I'd ever like to move out past 300yds that the barrel could accommodate it.
Noveske and Centurion Arms make very accurate chrome-lined, CHF barrels. I would definitely recommend a 16" Noveske Recce N4 or Centurion C4 upper receiver assembly for a "semi-SPR". They're already built, so you won't have to worry about assembly, and the Noveske already includes a BCG and BCM Gunfighter charging handle, so that's even better.
If you insist on a stainless barrel, I highly recommend either a 16" middy from White Oak Armament or a 16" SS410 middy from BCM. You're getting a lot for the money if you go that route.
Early reviews seem to be all positive about the trigger, and it seems everyone likes it a lot more than a stock trigger that comes with the avg lower parts kit....but it's not ~$250+ like some of the others which I'm not 100% sure I need (which is why I was leaning towards it). Not sure if I should just get a standard trigger and see how that works for me and then upgrade if necessary...or if I just get that one now (is it really that much better for the money)?
Just get an LPK from G&R Tactical and select Option 3, as it includes a Geissele G2S trigger. Honestly, since it's your first AR, I would stick with a standard fire control group and then work your way up to something better once you get that down.
Sights will be the last thing I procure.....not sure what would be necessary for 300yds (max goal of 500 accurately) with a fair degree of accuracy. I LOVE iron sights....hate red-dots.
Your priorities are a bit backwards here - buy your sights BEFORE you buy a custom trigger.
Limited experience with scopes so I'm unfamiliar about what brands are good, what magnification is necessary for my goals, etc other than supposedly Leupold is good. I need to do more research on this for sure, but I figure I can run irons for a while after it's built until I can be sure I'm educated enough on what to get and afford a quality optic. I've heard so far suggestions to get either a 4x ACOG (but isn't the red dot going to cover a large amount of the target at distance?)
ACOGs are expensive, but awesome. And no about the reticle.
Trijicon 1-4x accupoint
Great optic for the price - I own one. Just be sure you try the different reticles first to make sure you get the one you want. Everybody has different preferences in this regard.
Background: I only own a Sig handgun, but when I go to the range with my friends they all own various AR's that were complete when bought. I enjoy shooting them, and I'm fairly comfortable with them as well....I just don't want to be "that guy" who always shows up and shoots someone elses gun so I figure it's time to jump in and get my own.
I'm more than happy to let my friends shoot my guns, as long as they pay for the ammo and help me clean them later.
I don't like the idea of a complete rifle due to the lack of customization, ie. I'd hate to buy an assembled rifle and decide that I hate the grip, stock, and rail and have to essentially "buy it twice". I considered the assembled upper route, but it seems assembled uppers that are all recommended are wayyyy more money than my proposed parts list. Plus I spent a couple years working towards an engineering degree so I tend to prefer to build things (I'm mechanically inclined so assembly isn't a problem if I have all the right parts in front of me). Perhaps I'm not looking close enough though, would there be anything comprable to what I've listed in terms of quality/potential for accuracy for around the same price range? Minus the rail that I'm not sure about yet it is about $750 for everything listed so far. Really leaning towards the versatility of a 1:8 twist barrel, and would like 18" if possible. Haven't had any luck finding both.
BCM makes an 18" SS410 upper receiver assembly. That being said, read this board more - the 18" is not going to give you that much of an advantage over a 16", especially if you're not very proficient with the platform.
Noveske and Centurion Arms make very accurate chrome-lined, CHF barrels. I would definitely recommend a 16" Noveske Recce N4 or Centurion C4 upper receiver assembly for a "semi-SPR". They're already built, so you won't have to worry about assembly, and the Noveske already includes a BCG and BCM Gunfighter charging handle, so that's even better.
If you insist on a stainless barrel, I highly recommend either a 16" middy from White Oak Armament or a 16" SS410 middy from BCM. You're getting a lot for the money if you go that route.
I'll add those to my list of things to compare and do more research on.
Just get an LPK from G&R Tactical and select Option 3, as it includes a Geissele G2S trigger. Honestly, since it's your first AR, I would stick with a standard fire control group and then work your way up to something better once you get that down.
Yeah, seems like that's gonna be the plan. See if I really don't like the standard trigger and then figure out what exactly I don't like about it so that I'm more likely to replace it with something that best suits my needs (assuming I don't like it that is).
Your priorities are a bit backwards here - buy your sights BEFORE you buy a custom trigger.
I was always planning on getting irons first, but whatever scope I decide to go with will be down the road. You guys have talked me out of the custom trigger for now, but if I were to go that route in say a couple months...would it be better to still wait until I decide to go with a scope/red-dot (assuming I will want to leave irons).
ACOGs are expensive, but awesome. And no about the reticle.
Great optic for the price - I own one. Just be sure you try the different reticles first to make sure you get the one you want. Everybody has different preferences in this regard.
Yeah, that's the problem with the reticles though....one friend has an Aimpoint with a red dot (that I'm not terribly fond of), and another has a Trijicon with the pyramid (triangle) that I'm iffy on. None of the local gun stores carry anything else either for me to see the differences...looks like I need to make more friends at the gun range with a variety of scopes lol.
I'm more than happy to let my friends shoot my guns, as long as they pay for the ammo and help me clean them later.
They don't mind, and I always hook em up with 9mm ammo (or I buy dinner) but you know....just don't wanna always be "that guy"...and considering I like shooting the rifles (and have wanting to build one since my freshman year of school) I think it's a time to finally do it.
BCM makes an 18" SS410 upper receiver assembly. That being said, read this board more - the 18" is not going to give you that much of an advantage over a 16", especially if you're not very proficient with the platform.
I'm starting to think that I should just ditch the other boards....at the very least I'm getting lots of responses and useful info here. I was led to believe that the 18" would offer the benefits of a 20" in terms of bullet stabilization and muzzle velocity but without all the weight. You said that it's not much of an advantage due to my being new to the platform, would it not be beneficial for the possibility of "growing into it"? Like, say in a year I've put thousands of rounds down range and I'm getting to be somewhat experienced...hypothetically speaking of course...wouldn't it be better to have and not need to buy again (ie. outgrow another barrel) than to start with something else and upgrade eventually?
You seem to have a lot of preferences for someone new to ARs. I'm not sure how you arrived at these.
For your stated purpose I don't see anything glaringly wrong with what you listed, although I'd avoid the Ace stock personally.
I think you'd be better off with a BCM 16" complete upper just because it's easier to buy and the 2" less won't hurt you at all for what you want.
I also don't know why everyone is steering you towards a chrome-lined barrel. With some exceptions the most-accurate chrome-lined barrels are still not going to shoot as accurately as some of the worst stainless barrels and if you're shooting at a range then shooting for groups is the only thing to do, and you're going to want the most mechanical accuracy you can get.
I find chasing groups to be one of the most god-awful boring types of shooting but I'd imagine if you were doing it at 100-300 yards and achieving a consistent result moving out further would be the next step.
WRT "ALG trigger", Bill Geissele is behind ALG...'nuff said.
-Rainman
Magic_Salad0892
02-23-12, 05:17
You seem to have a lot of preferences for someone new to ARs. I'm not sure how you arrived at these.
For your stated purpose I don't see anything glaringly wrong with what you listed, although I'd avoid the Ace stock personally.
I think you'd be better off with a BCM 16" complete upper just because it's easier to buy and the 2" less won't hurt you at all for what you want.
I also don't know why everyone is steering you towards a chrome-lined barrel. With some exceptions the most-accurate chrome-lined barrels are still not going to shoot as accurately as some of the worst stainless barrels and if you're shooting at a range then shooting for groups is the only thing to do, and you're going to want the most mechanical accuracy you can get.
I find chasing groups to be one of the most god-awful boring types of shooting but I'd imagine if you were doing it at 100-300 yards and achieving a consistent result moving out further would be the next step.
I recommended CL barrel in the 16'' veriety in case he wanted to use it for HD/SD.
However, I think you're right about the range thing.
OP: If you want a precision barrel...
Noveske stainless, BCM, DD, and Kreiger.
Thems are the shit.
You seem to have a lot of preferences for someone new to ARs. I'm not sure how you arrived at these.
For your stated purpose I don't see anything glaringly wrong with what you listed, although I'd avoid the Ace stock personally.
I think you'd be better off with a BCM 16" complete upper just because it's easier to buy and the 2" less won't hurt you at all for what you want.
I also don't know why everyone is steering you towards a chrome-lined barrel. With some exceptions the most-accurate chrome-lined barrels are still not going to shoot as accurately as some of the worst stainless barrels and if you're shooting at a range then shooting for groups is the only thing to do, and you're going to want the most mechanical accuracy you can get.
I find chasing groups to be one of the most god-awful boring types of shooting but I'd imagine if you were doing it at 100-300 yards and achieving a consistent result moving out further would be the next step.
lol, yeah I'm kinda stubborn...but I don't want to come across as hard-headed or anything. I'm taking all the info in and considering everything that is mentioned.
The only preferences that I know for certain are my disdain for the Aimpoint sights and a preference for irons, but that's from personal experience. Everything else is just what I've gathered from reading various forums and reviews, and I am starting to realize that that is one of the problems with the internet (there's so much information out there and a lot is opinion so you're bound to get conflicting reports) but I'm always considering the opinions of others with more experience :)
I was under the impression that a steel barrel was better in terms of accuracy (although heavier, but I'm not going to be trekking further than the 50yds from my car to the bench at the range) so that's the main reason I lean towards that direction. And the idea of building just seems too fun to pass up. Bought a project motorcycle with no previous experience other than about 2 weeks riding time years prior and read everything I could and all the service manuals and got her running (took 6 months to diagnose, procure parts, and assemble but she runs finally lol) and I feel I've learned more about it than I would have if I just bought one that ran.
Slapping on a pre-built upper to an already assembled lower would take away that fun sense of wonder and exploration (kinda like when you're a kid and everything was new and you just wanted to take it apart to see how it works) and I think the idea of assembly is almost as important to me as the final project. Maybe I'm weird but I just like to work with my hands if I can. Although this might all be moot if all the barrels I've looked at as possibilities are still sold out in 2 weeks when I start purchasing (in which case I'll be looking into the suggested uppers).
More back on topic; but is there any reason anyone can think of why last week a lot of manufacturers showed barrels in stock but suddenly most of them are sold out? Is there a sudden run for barrels by consumers that happens regularly?
WRT "ALG trigger", Bill Geissele is behind ALG...'nuff said.
-Rainman
Yeah, I was leaning towards that but it was suggested that I try the standard configuration until further testing is done on the ALG triggers (considering how new they are); this way I'll have enough range time to know exactly what I do/don't like about the trigger to know if and what I'd want a new trigger to do for me.
I mistakenly thought it was about the shooting. I forget sometimes that people have made "chop onions" an activity vs. "eating". There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your own rifle. If you want a sense of pride in building something, REALLY building something, go build a table, or a shed, or a house. ARs are for shooting.
Carry on. This thread is turning out like every other proposed "build" thread where it has nothing to do with asking for opinions if those opinions do anything other than validate the foregone, ignorance-(or worse, internet-)based opinions.
Enjoy your new gun in 6 months, and whatever you do get out and shoot the hell out of it.
I mistakenly thought it was about the shooting. I forget sometimes that people have made "chop onions" an activity vs. "eating". There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your own rifle. If you want a sense of pride in building something, REALLY building something, go build a table, or a shed, or a house. ARs are for shooting.
Carry on. This thread is turning out like every other proposed "build" thread where it has nothing to do with asking for opinions if those opinions do anything other than validate the foregone, ignorance-(or worse, internet-)based opinions.
Enjoy your new gun in 6 months, and whatever you do get out and shoot the hell out of it.
I'm sorry to have offended you so greatly for preferring to assemble something...I wasn't aware that was such a big faux pas here. God forbid I *gasp* take a socket wrench to my jeep to change the oil next time. I guess I should just worry about driving it and pay someone else $60 to do what I could've done in my yard for free with no trouble to me at all. :/
Obviously it will be fired, I'm intending to build a gun....not a "table" like you suggest. I thought the platform was modular for a reason, in that the ability for customization based upon a particular users needs and wants was looked upon as a plus? I tell you what, you are so "anti" assembly...find me a retailer that has an upper with all those exact parts I list (and that you admitted were fine for my application) already assembled and I'll just go from there. Don't worry....I'll wait.
And as for the "this isn't a thread asking for opinions" I guess while you were busy waiting for an opportunity to jump down the noob's throat you missed where I have taken others advice into heavy consideration and have already changed my mind on the trigger due to it not being a good option at the moment (as suggested by another member). It's ok, I sometimes miss little details when I feel like looking down my nose at someone too :)
What I don't get is; you lambast me for supposedly posting looking for nothing more than validation of supposed mis-information gathered on the internet, but I'm the idiot for not doing things exactly as you'd suggest....you: another random person on the internet, who for all I know may or may not have more practical, real-world experience than anyone else at the other forums, in this thread, or at the range. That's why I posted, to see if what I've discovered so far was in fact correct by way of asking opinions of others (it's called research). If I read Noveske makes good uppers and 9 out of 10 people here agree then I would imagine I'm on the right track. If you come in and say "there's no real world benefit to building something" but can't offer a reason as to why it'd be detrimental...then considering I feel comfortable in the ability to do so I'll file it away and respect it as an opinion but it so far hasn't convinced me otherwise. I wonder if you give people crap about attaching complete uppers to assembled lowers too (looking back on your posts it doesn't appear so) considering that the guns are supposed to be shot and we can just as easily buy a pre-built rifle.
Even though you have come across somewhat rude and judgmental, I still have taken your input (other than the holier than thou part) into consideration, and the fact that you too suggest a 16" barrel for the intended usage due to the difference between that and 18" apparently being negligible, and the fact that another user has already suggested the same thing I can say I'm more open to the idea now.
And thanks, I'll try to remember to have fun in 6 months :)
Positive Displacement
02-23-12, 06:23
I can't deal with PSA....their customer service so far has been rather disappointing (can't blame anyone other than myself as I decided to order some stuff from them even after reading too many mixed reviews) but I'll start reading up on Spike's uppers. Are they known for accuracy as well as reliability? I ask because I've seen them mentioned in a positive manner in regards to the numerous "who makes a good/reliable upper?" posts everywhere, but never seen them mentioned when people ask about accuracy. Never heard of LMT, but since I was intending on including some parts from BCM and Noveske I'll look into their complete uppers too and see what I can find. Mostly concerned about the barrel....who generally uses the best barrels in their complete uppers? Match grade?
I forgot to take into account how new the ALG trigger was, and you're probably right....I should wait a couple months to see what the consensus is after they've been tested a little longer. I think I'll try the GI trigger first and assess whether it's necessary to upgrade after I've had it for a while.
Won't be using this for home defense, would trust my Sig Sauer over a bullet-buttoned and handicapped AR (did I mention how much I hate California's gun laws yet?) so this is going to be strictly gun range. I was leaning towards a scope instead of ACOG but not sure about ideal magnification (all my friends have red-dots). I'll address that later though.
I ordered this BCG it's a spikes tactical and retailed for 149.00, with a little cut and paste research I found it at the below website and jumped on it. http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/bolt-carrier-group-spikes-standard-hptmpi-m16-bcg-556-p-286.html
Found the same BCG here for 114.00 out the door, http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Spike_s_Tactical_M16_BCG_p/sp-st5bg01.htm?utm_source=google+product&utm_medium=versafeed&utm_term=sp+st5bg01&utm_campaign=sporting+goods+outdoor+recreation+hunting&utm_content=spikes+tactical+m16ar15+bcg+223556+hptmpi+phosphate+finish&v_traceback=c0222_0530_f0222_0541&Click=4368 Spike's was recommended from a friend, who also spoke highly of BCM, DD and LMT with the enhanced BCG. Hope this helps.
Personally, I have thought about building my own upper, but... I can buy what I want from BCM and it's done, and done right. One day though, I will venture down that road.
I ordered this BCG it's a spikes tactical and retailed for 149.00, with a little cut and paste research I found it at the below website and jumped on it. http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/bolt-carrier-group-spikes-standard-hptmpi-m16-bcg-556-p-286.html
Found the same BCG here for 114.00 out the door, http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/Spike_s_Tactical_M16_BCG_p/sp-st5bg01.htm?utm_source=google+product&utm_medium=versafeed&utm_term=sp+st5bg01&utm_campaign=sporting+goods+outdoor+recreation+hunting&utm_content=spikes+tactical+m16ar15+bcg+223556+hptmpi+phosphate+finish&v_traceback=c0222_0530_f0222_0541&Click=4368 Spike's was recommended from a friend, who also spoke highly of BCM, DD and LMT with the enhanced BCG. Hope this helps.
Personally, I have thought about building my own upper, but... I can buy what I want from BCM and it's done, and done right. One day though, I will venture down that road.
114, woah...good deal. Spikes was #2 on my list of possible BCG's after the BCM. Might go that way, but I was wondering (and I haven't found much that would explain why) but what makes one BCG better than another? Is it just material and finish, or are some known for having tighter standards and closer tolerances than others?
Oh, and do you have any experience with joeboboutfitters.com? 114 almost seems too good to be true, but resellerratings shows them ranked well.
Magic_Salad0892
02-23-12, 06:47
There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your own rifle.
How about getting what you really want, for a potentially cheaper amount of money, and not having a shitload of extra parts hanging around after you swap stuff?
Rob. No offense. As usually, I agree with you, and I know you have more shooting experience than me, among other things.
... but that quote is extremely ignorant. Or close minded.
Maybe I just don't know the right word.
TLD2024,
Easy there, cowboy. Rob is very knowledgeable. He's done a lot of exploring when it comes to ARs and training to use them. Do some more searching on this site and read what he's posted and you'll have a better understanding of where he's coming from. You'll also have a much better understanding of what you're doing.
A couple of things that will help you in configuring your AR-
1) You don't need a heavy profile barrel for accurate shooting. A lightweight barrel will work fine. It'll heat up faster but it'll be a livelier rifle and you'll enjoy shooting it more.
2) A 16" barrel will more than do the job out to 300 yards
3) Most of the questions you are asking will answer themselves by shooting. A basic 16" carbine is actually the best AR to start. It's the most versatile and cost effective configuration to start with because the basic parts you'll remove add little cost to the rifle and the parts you replace them with will add a lot. Dislike the standard handguards, you're out $10-$30. Dislike your freefloat railed handguard and you're out $200 or more
4) Start with a standard AR trigger and put heavy grease on the sears. (Note to Rob- I gave the standard trigger an honest go on my carbine. You were right- it's good enough for carbine work and better than I thought it'd be.)
Start with a basic carbine, whether you buy one turnkey or assemble it yourself. Don't upgrade anything until you shoot it and identify a need or want. You'll learn more about your AR that way and when you're done, it'll be configured the way you know you want instead of the way you think you want
What my basic carbine started off as (The yellow triangle was used to show the point of balance of the rifle)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_00023.jpg
Before I assembled it. The upper was pre-assembled, but there isn't much to putting one together
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0003-1.jpg
Here's the precision AR I assembled. I already knew what configuration I wanted before I started, based on my experiences shooting & hunting
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0196.jpg
Assembling a basic AR isn't hard if all the parts are good. But if you don't pay attention to all the details, you'll find yourself in trouble quick!
bullittmcqueen
02-23-12, 08:01
TDL2024
I don't post much here because I gain much more from the site from reading. Stay here long enough and you'll know whose opinion can be trusted. Rob S. is one of those people.
Enjoy your build and think and rethink it several times before you buy the parts. That's the best advice I can relay.
Hey if you know what you're doing, more power to you on the build. You don't really NEED to get a complete rifle, although I do think it's the better option for 90% of guys first getting into it.
It seems you've chosen some quality parts. I would have gone with a shorter barrel, but that's purely based on how long you'd like to shoot it, and the intended purpose of the rifle.
Don't spend so much money building you forget about the ammo to shoot it....
Positive Displacement
02-23-12, 08:11
114, woah...good deal. Spikes was #2 on my list of possible BCG's after the BCM. Might go that way, but I was wondering (and I haven't found much that would explain why) but what makes one BCG better than another? Is it just material and finish, or are some known for having tighter standards and closer tolerances than others?
Oh, and do you have any experience with joeboboutfitters.com? 114 almost seems too good to be true, but resellerratings shows them ranked well.
Joebob is GTG, my order should be here tomorrow and my upper from BCM is coming UPS today. Buyer's review's is what I base my decision on most of the time before I order online.
Seems to me that the BCG is GTG also:
Spike's Tactical HPT/MPI M16 Bolt Carrier Group (223/5.56).
Bolt carrier group specifications-
-Mil-Spec 8620 tool steel M16 bolt carrier w/shrouded firing pin.
-Carrier has 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish inside and out with 1.2.2.2 MIL-STD-171 hard chrome bore.
-Laser engraved with ST Spider logo (visable through ejection port door opening).
-Mil-Spec tool steel carrier key.
-Carrier key has 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish inside and out with 1.2.2.2 MIL-STD-171 hard chrome bore.
-Carrier key is attached with Grade 8 hardware and properly staked per the Mil-Spec.
-Bolts are CNC machined from Carpenter No. 158®.
-Bolts have 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish inside and out.
-All bolts are shot peened per the current Mil-Spec.
-All bolts are Individually High Pressure Tested (HPT) and then Individually Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI).
-Tool steel extractor, shot peened, 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish, fitted with a Mil-Spec black extractor spring insert and Mil-Spec Viton o-ring.
-Mil-Spec firing pin with 1.2.2.2 MIL-STD-171 hard chrome finish.
-Mil-Spec cam pin with 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish.
-Mil-Spec firing pin retaining pin with 5.3.1.2 MIL-STD-171 phosphate finish.
Punisher1336
02-23-12, 12:17
I just built another AR and I built it around the Noveske upper. But I got the Afghan 14.5 with OAL 16. But thats my preference, a carbine. I suggest you get it since you are on m4 CARBINE forum :jester:
TLD2024,
Easy there, cowboy. Rob is very knowledgeable. He's done a lot of exploring when it comes to ARs and training to use them. Do some more searching on this site and read what he's posted and you'll have a better understanding of where he's coming from. You'll also have a much better understanding of what you're doing.
A couple of things that will help you in configuring your AR-
1) You don't need a heavy profile barrel for accurate shooting. A lightweight barrel will work fine. It'll heat up faster but it'll be a livelier rifle and you'll enjoy shooting it more.
2) A 16" barrel will more than do the job out to 300 yards
3) Most of the questions you are asking will answer themselves by shooting. A basic 16" carbine is actually the best AR to start. It's the most versatile and cost effective configuration to start with because the basic parts you'll remove add little cost to the rifle and the parts you replace them with will add a lot. Dislike the standard handguards, you're out $10-$30. Dislike your freefloat railed handguard and you're out $200 or more
4) Start with a standard AR trigger and put heavy grease on the sears. (Note to Rob- I gave the standard trigger an honest go on my carbine. You were right- it's good enough for carbine work and better than I thought it'd be.)
Start with a basic carbine, whether you buy one turnkey or assemble it yourself. Don't upgrade anything until you shoot it and identify a need or want. You'll learn more about your AR that way and when you're done, it'll be configured the way you know you want instead of the way you think you want
What my basic carbine started off as (The yellow triangle was used to show the point of balance of the rifle)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_00023.jpg
Before I assembled it. The upper was pre-assembled, but there isn't much to putting one together
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0003-1.jpg
Here's the precision AR I assembled. I already knew what configuration I wanted before I started, based on my experiences shooting & hunting
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0196.jpg
Assembling a basic AR isn't hard if all the parts are good. But if you don't pay attention to all the details, you'll find yourself in trouble quick!
Thank you MistWolf, that was more along the type of info I was hoping to hear (ie. real world experiences). I don't doubt Rob is very knowledgeable on the subject, it's just the delivery that needs work. So it seems to be that the consensus is 18" is unnecessary so I will start looking at uppers with 16" instead. Building from scratch might not be an option any longer considering everyone is now sold out of almost every barrel (with the exception of Noveske and Kreiger apparently which are too far out of budget) so I'll look more into purchasing an assembled upper.
1+2) Sounds good. 16" is on the menu now. Now I just need to start browsing for a good quality upper with that in mind.
3) That makes sense; will try to leave myself enough wiggle room to improve as I shoot more and will lean more towards basic configurations for now.
4) Already been convinced this is the way to go. I'll take note of that heavy grease comment too ;)
Thanks again!
How about getting what you really want, for a potentially cheaper amount of money, and not having a shitload of extra parts hanging around after you swap stuff?
Rob. No offense. As usually, I agree with you, and I know you have more shooting experience than me, among other things.
... but that quote is extremely ignorant. Or close minded.
Maybe I just don't know the right word.
No you don't know the right word. The one you're looking for is "correct".:p
Again, how do you know what you're looking for?
To make the quote more general, and non-specific to the OP...
There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your first AR, outside of not having the funds available all at once to buy a complete gun and lacking the self-control to simply save.
Starting from scratch, you may (think you) know what you want, but you have no idea what you NEED in order to do what you want to do, or very likely even know what you want to do, with it.
If you want to know how to put an AR together, take an AR apart. If you still want to shoot, you're going to have to put it back together again.
I thought the OP had a pretty clearly stated goal, and in fact was initially trying to defend him against those that were so busily trying to steer him towards guns and parts that fit what THEY wanted for THEIR applications instead of what he came right out and said he wanted to do with the gun.
The specific sentence that made me realize this may not be the case was this one
I think the idea of assembly is almost as important to me as the final project.
hence "chop onions" becomes the end-goal, not "eat food".
No you don't know the right word. The one you're looking for is "correct".:p
Again, how do you know what you're looking for?
To make the quote more general, and non-specific to the OP...
There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your first AR, outside of not having the funds available all at once to buy a complete gun and lacking the self-control to simply save.
Starting from scratch, you may (think you) know what you want, but you have no idea what you NEED in order to do what you want to do, or very likely even know what you want to do, with it.
If you want to know how to put an AR together, take an AR apart. If you still want to shoot, you're going to have to put it back together again.
I thought the OP had a pretty clearly stated goal, and in fact was initially trying to defend him against those that were so busily trying to steer him towards guns and parts that fit what THEY wanted for THEIR applications instead of what he came right out and said he wanted to do with the gun.
The specific sentence that made me realize this may not be the case was this one
hence "chop onions" becomes the end-goal, not "eat food".
The explanation you've provided for not being "pro-assembly" is much more clear and well taken. I think you're taking the desire to assemble it the wrong way. You seem to be under the impression that I wish to build a rifle and then sit it in the safe and that's it. Obviously I wish to shoot something that is able to meet the intended usage I stated earlier....if I just wanted to build something for "shits-n-giggles" I'd just order the cheapest materials possible and be done with it. Asking if the proposed parts would be of quality and able to achieve a task I stated (very early on I might add) should've been a not so subtle hint that I intend to use the gun. Oh well, I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise since you're caught up on one irrelevant part of the thread (the thread after all is "Are these a good combo of parts to build a rifle for xyz as a first build?". The odd thing is you did in fact have no issue with anything (not even the assembly) until I said I enjoyed assembling things. :confused:
Oh well....moving on. Thanks for the input and clarification anyway.
Magic_Salad0892
02-24-12, 05:16
No you don't know the right word. The one you're looking for is "correct".:p
Again, how do you know what you're looking for?
To make the quote more general, and non-specific to the OP...
There is zero real-world benefit to assembling your first AR, outside of not having the funds available all at once to buy a complete gun and lacking the self-control to simply save.
Starting from scratch, you may (think you) know what you want, but you have no idea what you NEED in order to do what you want to do, or very likely even know what you want to do, with it.
If you want to know how to put an AR together, take an AR apart. If you still want to shoot, you're going to have to put it back together again.
I thought the OP had a pretty clearly stated goal, and in fact was initially trying to defend him against those that were so busily trying to steer him towards guns and parts that fit what THEY wanted for THEIR applications instead of what he came right out and said he wanted to do with the gun.
The specific sentence that made me realize this may not be the case was this one
hence "chop onions" becomes the end-goal, not "eat food".
Rob. I'm sorry. I took your post out of context.
For some reason I took your responce as a blanket statement, as if you were telling me that there is no real world benifit to building an AR myself. To me.
I know what I want, because I have experience with ARs and know what I like.
For the OP, this is his first rifle. Your statement holds true.
Unless your statement was meant as a general statement, I apologize. I shouldn't have responded.
I second the others advice. Get a BCM 16'' SS upper. Or Centurion Mk. 12(K) upper.
Positive Displacement
02-24-12, 06:29
TDL2024: Not trying to hijack your thread, just want to show what can be done for under a 1000.00.
BCM 16" Mid-Length (399.00)
RRA Stripped Lower, (150.00 overpriced) Next will be Spike's lower for 100.00
Magpul hand guard (32.00)
LaRue SST / LPK
Magpul Stock
VLTOR buffer tube
LMT BUIS
Spikes Tactical BCG 114.00
Joebob's is G2G, shipped fast and no hassle!!! If your on the fence about that BCG, you need to order it. I also ordered some ammo from Ammo2Go, yesterday afternoon and it already shipped.
Altogether i'm into this thing for about 750.00ish dollars.
http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx254/CRF450XNUT/2df5b2e1.jpg
http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx254/CRF450XNUT/1d9ccb64.jpg
OP
Nothing wrong with having a desire to assemble an AR.
For your first one though, I recommend doing what I did. Buy an assembled rifle. There are some good suggestions from some experienced folks in this thread for what your are looking for. I highly recommend taking these into consideration.
If your desire is so great to see how it is assembled, disassemble it and put it back together again. I did this to my first one and learned alot about the gun.
It's terse as hell, but facts are facts:
If the OP had punched the words "first build" into the orange Search button, he will absolutely have found a metric buttload of similar threads in which he might have added his query, instead of starting....yet ANOTHER...new one.
Use Search.
The idea that there's no such thing as a stupid question is inherently false, and was probably ginned up by some idiot that wasn't asked enough questions.
Point being, no, this is NOT a stupid question.
It is, however, a COMMON question, which is what the stickied threads at the top of every subforum are for, and what the Search features are for.
Learn to fish, so that you don't have to ask for fish.
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