Optics, Mounts, and BUIS?

[1gunzenuf]

First, I have been around long enough (on this site, reading) to have used the orange search button before posting this. Second, the members of this site and their benevolence with their hard-earned knowledge saved me from the purchase of either an Olympic Arms or DPMS Rifle. Thanks for this, as I would have been ultimately unhappy with my purchase had I bought and then found M4C.

Anyway, I just concluded my purchase of a DD M4V7 middy. I chose this particular rifle after viewing them (among others) at this years SHOT Show. I based my decision on the accessories I plan to run and do not think I will need more mounting options than this rifle offers in it's stock form.

So, I plan to order sling, spare magazines, light, RDS, and RDS mount from Grant and would like to ask the membership a few questions about the items I plan to add.

A Surefire weaponlight will be on the way soon, but I have a couple of questions for any who have used the different lights available. I think the X300 or X300 ultra would be my choice. Any opinions on one vs the other for indoor or short range outdoor use? Would one of the Surefire Scout lights be a better option for indoor use?

I have also decided on an Aimpoint Micro T1 or H1 RDS and have looked at the different mounts available. These are a little confusing to me as far as co-witness with irons, but through research here and on the internet, I am beginning to figure it out. I think the Larue mount is probably the option I would choose, but I have also looked at the DD and KAC mounts. Any opinions on these options for my purposes?

Finally, I am torn between flip-up and fixed iron sights. I have looked at Larue and Troy and have decided, barring any information to the contrary that I would lean toward fixed Troy sights for my new rifle.

Sorry for the long post, and yes, I have found quite bit of information already using the search function (it is how I decided on the gear choices above). I just want to do this right the first time based on what I want my rifle to accomplish for me. I am confident that my choices will work for my purposes, but I would welcome any input that may offer a different perspective and possibly some direction on the light and RDS mount. This will be primarily a defensive weapon for my home and associated property.

I am off to find as much more info as I can on the weapon system itself as well as the accessories I plan to use as well as to find a the nearest reputable carbine course I can attend. Thanks to all who make this place happen. I don't have a lot to add, but I certainly have learned a lot from this place over the past few months.

[bsmith_shoot]

I dont have a thing to add. Any choice, out of all the options you listed, would be great. Go for it, shoot it, and post us some pics in the pic threads.
Brandon

[Tzook]

This is purely my opinion, but I prefer to have no iron sight in my red dot picture. I understand the concept of co-witnessing, or shooting with a front post, I just feel it gets in my line of sight. Lots of forum members who know a hell of a lot more than me don't see a problem with it, so it certainly won't hurt you either way you choose.

I was poking around on the light/knife section a week or two ago, trying to find a weaponlight for my rifle as well. I was making it a lot more complicated than it needed to be, and I just ended up going with a simple, cheap but bright Solarforce light and a simple GG&G mount. I definitely don't know best on this subject either, but it seems to work pretty well for my purposes. I think when it was all said and done I was into it like 60 bucks, which is nice compared to the prices on those Surefires....

[ra2bach]

I like the Daniel Defense mount for a T-1. lightweight and very robust.

and I use a fixed rear BUIS with a RDS that isn't also intended for use with a magnifier. I like the DD here also...

[Doc Safari]

I like the T1 as well. I found that I prefer a folding rear BUIS because a fixed one causes too much visual clutter. YMMV.

[Punisher1336]

I just got the Aimpoint Micro H-1, I have opted for flip rear and front sights (magpul)

[1gunzenuf]

Thanks for the input. I opted for Troy folding front and rear sights for my BUIS. I also opted for the DD mount for the RDS. Even though it will not be QD, the BUIS will co-witness when deployed. I am continuing to gather as much information as I can about the platform, ammo variants, and their differing roles. Extra P-Mags and ammo are on the way. Thanks again for the assistance thus far. and for a great site that makes it easy to learn what I don't know.

[lifebreath]

I prefer fixed sights with red dot, front and back, and 1/3 lower co-witness. This requires a little higher mount and modified cheek weld (more of a jaw-weld than cheek weld). I do not find it cluttered whatsoever. However, I would find an absolute co-witness to be rather bothersome with fixed sights, and would opt for folding sights if I wanted an absolute co-witness or if I required a true traditional cheek weld.

Another thing to consider is if you ever foresee swapping a 1-4X variable (or similar) for the Aimpoint. If so, you'd do well to have folding sights, as the fixed sights do become bothersome in my opinion with the variable power scopes.

I like the Danial Defense fixed rear BUIS and the Troy folders (front and back) are rock solid.

[ra2bach]

Thanks for the input. I opted for Troy folding front and rear sights for my BUIS. I also opted for the DD mount for the RDS. Even though it will not be QD, the BUIS will co-witness when deployed. I am continuing to gather as much information as I can about the platform, ammo variants, and their differing roles. Extra P-Mags and ammo are on the way. Thanks again for the assistance thus far. and for a great site that makes it easy to learn what I don't know.

the DD T-1 mount is lower 1/3 cowitness. I'm fine with a fixed BUIS in this case, like the DD A1.5.

anything that uses absolute cowitness, like the Aimpoint PRO with the QRP mount, needs a folder, IMO...

[wahoo95]

The DD mount is solid, however after a couple of hard outings in cold/rain I wouldn't run anything that wasn't QD. One class in particular we were shooting on a 300yd pop up range while it was pouring rain and fairly cool temperature wise. Instructor had us run about 60yds then engage targets. Between the rain, smoke, and fog from heavy breathing the guys with non QD mounts were dead in the water as they weren't able to utilize their red dots or magnified optics and weren't able to switch to irons. Luckily I was able to detach my T-1/LT660 and go to irons. Normally I would just flip up my BUIS, but I couldn't get a sight picture through the optic due to the conditions listed above. We were shooting targets ranging from 25-300yds.

[Failure2Stop]

The DD mount is solid, however after a couple of hard outings in cold/rain I wouldn't run anything that wasn't QD.

I absolutely agree.

[JW1069]

I like the T1 as well. I found that I prefer a folding rear BUIS because a fixed one causes too much visual clutter. YMMV.

Completely agree. I tried using a LaRue fixed rear BUIS, but found lining up the dot with the irons to be slower than shooting without the BUIS in the way. Now I just use the Troy's.

[1gunzenuf]

I had not thought about not being bale to procure a sight picture with irons through the optic due to external factors such as rain, fog, or even possibly cracked lenses... I may need to rethink the non-QD RDS mount and go back with the Larue I was looking at. Thanks again for the input... something to ponder... good info and advice.

[bsmith_shoot]

Completely agree. I tried using a LaRue fixed rear BUIS, but found lining up the dot with the irons to be slower than shooting without the BUIS in the way. Now I just use the Troy's.

Simple question? Do you actually try to line the dot up with your irons when shooting? If so, your going at this all wrong.

[Doc Safari]

Simple question? Do you actually try to line the dot up with your irons when shooting? If so, your going at this all wrong.

I have heard this before...and for whatever reason if it's a fixed rear sight with a 100% co-witness to the optic then the tendency is to want everything to line up. I was never able to "ignore" the rear BUIS in such a setup and that's why I went with a folding rear sight.

To this day I put the red dot on top of the front sight post when aiming and I don't think I could tolerate it any other way.

[Failure2Stop]

I have heard this before...and for whatever reason if it's a fixed rear sight with a 100% co-witness to the optic then the tendency is to want everything to line up. I was never able to "ignore" the rear BUIS in such a setup and that's why I went with a folding rear sight.

To this day I put the red dot on top of the front sight post when aiming and I don't think I could tolerate it any other way.

You are losing a bit of caipability by doing that.
Having a floating dot is advantageous for a variety of hold-over applications.

[Doc Safari]

You are losing a bit of caipability by doing that.
Having a floating dot is advantageous for a variety of hold-over applications.

I have a question about this too. Being old school I'm not that familiar with red dots. Prior to mounting a T1 on my M4 I had dabbled with an Eotech on someone else's rifle and that's it.

Is the nature of a red dot sight that it should be zeroed even if the dot is not perfectly in the center of the lens? If that's the case then I guess I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how RDS's work.

I ask because it always baffled me how an Eotech would still be useful even with part of the window destroyed or obscured.

[ARonBoard]

I like the T1 as well. I found that I prefer a folding rear BUIS because a fixed one causes too much visual clutter. YMMV.

This would be my vote. Has worked for me.

[Barvan40]

I have a question about this too. Being old school I'm not that familiar with red dots. Prior to mounting a T1 on my M4 I had dabbled with an Eotech on someone else's rifle and that's it.

Is the nature of a red dot sight that it should be zeroed even if the dot is not perfectly in the center of the lens? If that's the case then I guess I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how RDS's work.

I ask because it always baffled me how an Eotech would still be useful even with part of the window destroyed or obscured.

As long as the red dot is still working and visible the Eotech or Aimpoint can still be effective. As long as you use it properly by using both eyes and as long as one eye sees the dot and the other the intended target your brain will merge what both eyes see and you can put the dot on the target.

Because of parallax correction in both Aimpoint and Eotech RDS it does not matter where the red dot is in the scope, at the far edge or centered it will still allow you to get hits on the target.

Both Aimpoint and Eotech have a small amount of parallax error inside of 50 meters. Set up a target at 50 to 100 meters away. Set your rifle on a rest and look through your RDS while moving your head to change the location of the dot inside the scope. You will see that while the dot position changes inside the scope it does not move from the point of aim no matter where the dot is located in the scope.

If you try this at a shorter distance you will see a slight movement of the p.o.a. on the target but you will still be well within minute of man. This is what makes these optics so effective in CQB.

[Doc Safari]

Both Aimpoint and Eotech have a small amount of parallax error inside of 50 meters. Set up a target at 50 to 100 meters away. Set you rifle on a rest and look through your RDS while moving your head to change the location of the dot inside the scope. You will see that while the dot position changes inside the scope it does not move from the point of aim no matter where the dot is located in the scope.

If you try this at a shorter distance you will see a slight movement of the p.o.a. on the target but you will still be well within minute of man. This is what makes these optics so effective in CQB.

Wow.

That's eye-opening. (Pun intented). :sarcastic:

I think we've just identified where I need formal training.

[JW1069]

Simple question? Do you actually try to line the dot up with your irons when shooting? If so, your going at this all wrong.

I should clarify a bit - my vision isn't 20/20 and there are times when my eye will blur the aperature opening and foul my sight picture for a moment. A blink or two usually corrects this problem. I kept the rear fixed BUIS on my 15-22 to help train through the issue, but there's no question that for me I shoot the RDS optics faster without a fixed rear BUIS in the way.

[Failure2Stop]

Is the nature of a red dot sight that it should be zeroed even if the dot is not perfectly in the center of the lens? If that's the case then I guess I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how RDS's work.

I ask because it always baffled me how an Eotech would still be useful even with part of the window destroyed or obscured.

It will be very close to being zeroed.
With any optic there is parallax, though for practical purposes the amount of parallax induced by being off center with an Eo or AP is minimal.
That is a big part of what makes them so valuable for gunfighting application.

Of course, the more centered the dot is in the window, the more consistent you will be, which is particularly pertinent to precision and zeroing.

This is what permits a lower 1/3 cowitness, which allows the user to keep the irons deployed (or use a fixed BUIS) but use the dot, and then simply slide into the irons if the dot isn't working.