View Full Version : Downsides to a 12.5" Kino ?
I'm interested in selling my match barreled setup and getting into a Kino instead. 12.5", midlength magpul moe, forged fsb... And that seems like a great setup, but maybe I'm missing something? What do you give up with a Kino? Besides a little weight, it should be as 'combat ready' as any other SBR right? Pinned gas blocks, fsb, etc.
Aside from that, does anyone know the best way to get a hammer forged barrel kino? My though was order a DD with the low pro pinned block, buy a fsb, and have someone install the delta ring assembly and fsb. But what is that labor going to cost?
BCM has the entire upper but I really only need the barrel. Have plenty of uppers and as an aside I'm looking to install this in a W.A.R. Upper so I have some gas block control. BCM is out anyhow and who knows when they will come back into stock!?
Basically I messed up on my first build and want to get it right this time. Is Kino the way to go?
As far as SBR's go the only down side I see is availability! The only other downside would be the FSB if you prefer a rail mounted BUIS.
I've been keeping my eye on these and it seems like they are a solid performer. I'm going to do one with the MOE hand guard for a lightweight SBR build next. Just checked though and they are out of stock again :cray:
Yea, the out of stock thing is kind of crap.
Well, part of me getting this is because I want a real deal performer. Something that if we're picked up and place in Afghanistan that I wouldn't be regretful with. The sbr I have now is a collection of parts and I wouldn't really trust my life to any of them. I want kind of want FSB to be there all time, still need to look into this.
The MOE is because I'm sick to death of quad rails. It's modular free float or MOE for me. Quad rails kinda suck IMO. :)
Yea, the out of stock thing is kind of crap.
The MOE is because I'm sick to death of quad rails.
Agreed on both accounts :laugh:
Anything from BCM should be G2G, and I think the Kino would pretty much be the ideal setup. I should have ordered one a few weeks ago when they were still in stock but I've been pissing around with a new Glock 19 and didn't think much about it. Oh well, I'll just break out the credit card when I get the notification!
Aside from that, does anyone know the best way to get a hammer forged barrel kino? My though was order a DD with the low pro pinned block, buy a fsb, and have someone install the delta ring assembly and fsb. But what is that labor going to cost?
I would just wait for the BCM Kino's to come back in stock. But you could find someone to do the work for you. Robb Jensen would be on my short list of folks to check with. You might even call DD to see if they would add a FSB to a bbl. Let us know if they will. I have a 10.5", 11.5" and a new Kino 12.5". I would be happy with a 11.5" but wanted to try the Kino to see if I liked it. It's the BRD thing. As the snow melts I should get access to shooting soon. I have Zero rounds through the Kino now.
Here is my Kino with my 11.5" upper below it.
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Snapbucket/4FD68669-orig.jpg
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Snapbucket/015DE5B9-orig.jpg
I tried the Mossie light mount on the Kino but liked it better on the 11.5" bbl.
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab160/usmcvet0331/Snapbucket/121C527D-orig.jpg
Ok. I'm sold on the Kino.
I'd just like to find a good barrel to start with. I'd do the BCM if they were in stock I guess. I'll call DD and see if I can locate a Jensen for an estimate on a cost.
I have the machines required to do this work, but this is not a machining job, it's a jigging job.
If you're going with a MOE just understand that MOE+Kino will weigh more than other options. A standard 12.5" upper with something like a TRX Extreme or Rainier, or other Brazilian(slick)-style handguard will weigh less, even after you mount back a rail-attached front sight.
Understand that with the Kino you're getting a gas block, PLUS a full FSB in terms of the weight, and a MOE mounted also weighs more than most of the Brazilian FF handguards.
I'll second what rob_s said, when I initially purchased my Kino I ran it with the MOE setup plus a light and it was quite nose heavy, to the point I didn't like it. I ended up pulling the FSB off and installing a DD MFR 12.0 rail and it made a world of difference to me. Though I haven't put a light back on it yet, I plan on trying to keep that as light as possible also (SF X300 or similar).
Not trying to dissuade anyone from this configuration, just giving my experience.
My friend's kino with MOE handguards feels like it ways more than my kino with a DD Lite rail.
If you're going with a MOE just understand that MOE+Kino will weigh more than other options. A standard 12.5" upper with something like a TRX Extreme or Rainier, or other Brazilian(slick)-style handguard will weigh less, even after you mount back a rail-attached front sight.
Understand that with the Kino you're getting a gas block, PLUS a full FSB in terms of the weight, and a MOE mounted also weighs more than most of the Brazilian FF handguards.
I was curious so I got some numbers together... some charts I found around the internet for the handguard weights ;)
4.7oz F Marked FSB
1-2oz for Aluminum or Steel low profile gas block (1.5 for estimation)
1.125oz Average front sight (folding/fixed estimation)
1.25oz RSA or swivel attachment
12.4oz TRX Mid
13.2oz Apex Mid
16.8oz Apex Mid Kino
19.0oz MOE Mid Kino
A couple of notes... One... I hate the TRX rail. I don't have a specific reason, I just don't like it much. It's still better than quad rails imo, but maybe it's the attachment method or the feel in hand or the look. Not sure, I just don't like it.
I put value on having a pinned FSB, but only to a point. For me to even need the FSB, my optic is going to need to be dead or missing. That said, I don't like the idea of mounting a fixed or folding sight to a modular top rail like the Apex has. Seems like to many failure points.
Well...... ****.... Thanks a lot Rob! Now I'm back to square one... I need to see if the Apex parts are worth a damn. If they are, I guess I could
1. Pay the 3oz penalty and go with the Apex mid extended Kino
2. Do a traditional Apex 12.5" with lo pro and get a folding front sight
Ugh.
haha, I'm going through the same machinations myself right now, so I get it.
I know you don't like the quad rails (I've come back to a gun with a DD M4 on it recently and with the Larue index clips really like it) but you might think about a standard 12.5" barrel with an FSP cutout handguard. That way you're not adding the extra weight of the gas block (which is only ~1 oz. FYI) but you're still getting a fixed FSP.
I've been thinking about ordering a Centurion 12.5" barreled upper with his 12.0 FSP rail on it. Since I care less and less every day about a can, I can't think of any real downsides to this.
I'd like to see more Brazilian-style handguards with FSP options. I swear I had seen an Apex like that.. maybe it was a custom cutout on one of these.
http://www.apexhandguard.com/store.php?seller=ApexMachiningCompany&navt1=19974&pd=112348#images
Rob, Noodles, thanks for the info!
I may still stick with the Kino/MOE setup despite the increased weight. This will be a no frills build and I will be running straight irons, FSP is a must for me. I like to get a far grip on the hand guard and I prefer carbine gas for reliability. That's why I'm leaning towards the Kino.
Worst case scenario, I will swap the MOEs for something different I guess. They're not that expensive so I won't take much of a hit.
Now BCM just needs to pick up the pace and churn more of these out haha!!
haha, I'm going through the same machinations myself right now, so I get it.
I know you don't like the quad rails (I've come back to a gun with a DD M4 on it recently and with the Larue index clips really like it) but you might think about a standard 12.5" barrel with an FSP cutout handguard. That way you're not adding the extra weight of the gas block (which is only ~1 oz. FYI) but you're still getting a fixed FSP.
I've been thinking about ordering a Centurion 12.5" barreled upper with his 12.0 FSP rail on it. Since I care less and less every day about a can, I can't think of any real downsides to this.
I'd like to see more Brazilian-style handguards with FSP options. I swear I had seen an Apex like that.. maybe it was a custom cutout on one of these.
http://www.apexhandguard.com/store.php?seller=ApexMachiningCompany&navt1=19974&pd=112348#images
1oz aluminum, 2oz steel DD. Doesn't really matter for those numbers as they all used 1.5. Could have left it out.
I have some DD, and they're OK, it just that I really dislike the idea of buying an expensive rail that feels like shit in the hand without extra covers meaning extra cost and weight. I'd much rather a Brazilian
I get what you're saying on the standard rail with cutout. I'm not sure, but I think the midlength rail for hand/grip space is worth more than the 1oz I'd save over the gas block. However, that setup would allow a LW barrel and still have a fixed fsp....
Opposite, I more and more want the can on there.
Rob, what do you think about the Apex with a fsp, or without and a folding or fixed rail sight instead?
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