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Sid Post
12-24-07, 12:46
After reading the IMI vs. Colt thread, I detected a real anti-bullpup feeling from users a lot more skilled then myself with some real world practical application of riles in a combat environments.

In a 9mm subgun, I see no reason for a bullpup conversion from a rifle because they are already compact and generally pretty darn cheap and reliable. However, a real rifle caliber bullpup seems like a good option for a lot of people. You get the compactness of an SBR with a non-SBR length. This gives you more velocity and less muzzle blast too. Parts failure can be dealt with in terms of safety with a good design. Ambidextrous use can be handled with an FN FS-2000 that ejects down through the bottom of the rifle assuming you have the controls you need either in the middle or on both sides. Suppressed use puts the ejection port next to your ear so, that is a negative. However, the Steyr AUG has found acceptable military use and the FN FS-2000 while new seems to be received favorably in general.

Why wouldn't someone want to use a bullpup if they wanted a shorter overall length without getting into the NFA paperwork? My SBR AR-15 has the buffer tube so, it doesn't store that much shorter then a bullpup with a non-NFA barrel length. Maybe I will hold out for an FN SCAR variant but, that is years away at the earliest so, is a Steyr AUG style rifle or an FN FS-2000 the way to go? Is the AR-15 that much more reliable and durable?

Thanks for listening/reading my rambling post trying to understand the pro's and con's of bullpup rifles in a rifle caliber.

SuicideHz
12-24-07, 13:16
Bullpup rifle triggers are usually pretty crappy...

dubb-1
12-24-07, 13:54
Spend some time with a bullpup, and the deficiencies become glaringly obvious.

Sid Post
12-24-07, 17:11
Spend some time with a bullpup, and the deficiencies become glaringly obvious.

I would like to do that but, the tuition is expensive. Can you throw me a bone and help my education?

Several nations use the Steyr AUG so, the deficiencies the bullpup have are not obvious to me right now. Even the US ARMY has gone to a shorter overall rifle in IRAQ so, a bullpup with a heavy trigger could keep a longer barrel and still meet the overall minimum length requirements they have as one example of a positive attribute.

dubb-1
12-24-07, 17:47
Sure thing:

-cartridge detonation just under the nose (just bad JUJU)
-slow mag changes
-slow/difficult malfunction clearance/drills
-lack of adjustment for LOP
-traditionally poor triggers
-general lack of modularity vs the current prominent battle long arm.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. The first three are the main obstacles for me. I spend a good amount of time working on mag changes, and malfunction drills. With the AR platform, malfunctions are easily visible and palpable, with the benefit of being able to use your hands in the view of your peripheral, and maintaining visual focus on your target area. All of this while the rifle is still pulled in close to your body.

Marc
12-25-07, 05:15
I had a Steyr AUG by the past, probably the best all around bullpup ever made, but I aggree completely with dubb-1.

Now I stay with AR15/M16 platform only, we all know the pro and con and as for the 1911 or the Glock you can find parts everywhere around the world if needed... As well ease of maintenance.

Sorry for my English!

Sid Post
12-25-07, 20:27
Thank you!

Considering the Steyr Aug, French Famas, and British SA-80 are in general use, issues like reliability should be resolved. The M-16 had a spotty track record in the beginning. Malfunction clearance and magazine reloads can be dealt with in training but, a traditional rifle does have an advantage there. I guess the advantages of having a shorter overall package with a longer barrel may be offset by advantages of a standard rifle platform since civilians like myself don't need to jump out of our cars with a rifle at the ready or do house clearing drills very often.

Marc,

Thanks for replying to my post. Your English is much better then my German. Having traveled in Europe, I appreciate the effort it takes to pick up another language and communicate in a language that is not your own.

Best Regards,
Sid

SuicideHz
12-25-07, 20:34
Those three rifles are in use only because those three countries wouldn't let themselves use the AR! They all felt the need to develop something new and the SA80 is a total POS. We have had all the Radway Green surplus (supposedly) because it won't cycle those rifles.

jhs1969
12-25-07, 20:54
The Israeli Tavor is the only bullpup that appeals to me, I would love to try it. I don't give a hoot about any of the others, even after I handled the FS2000 several times. And I hate the idea of plastic fire control parts, sorry I just can't get past it.

I'm sure we will likely never see the Tavor, so I am saving my bank account for the Masada.