What are reasonable performance benchmarks for a Tactical Pistol 1 Class

"Come train with the elite US Navy SEALs!"

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Originally Posted by Kool Aid

They want the courses to be challenging, and they tailor some of the drills to each student based on that student's skill. Tac Pistol 1 is set up on a pass/fail system based primarily on timed drills at the end of the three hour course. None of the students in my class had passing scores, and since they are using me largely as a barometer, they are considering changes to the course and requirements. The following is a list of the test standards and my scores. Please share your opinion on the appropriateness of these drills and if you think the standard is reasonable compared to other level 1 courses you have taken.

All tests done from 5 yards, two attempts at each drill, and one clean run is required (no misses).

1) Draw from holster and hit a 4" dot in less than 2.0 seconds. I scored 1.65 seconds.

2) Draw, fire one shot, tactical reload, one more shot on 4" dot in less than 5 seconds. I scored 4.6 seconds.

3) Draw and double tap a 4" circle in less than 2.5 seconds. I scored 2.1 seconds.

4) Draw and fire 16 shots on a 8" circle in less than 12 seconds. A tactical reload is required somewhere in the string. I scored 9.9 seconds with one miss, then 12.3 seconds with no misses. Epic fail.

5) El Presidente drill from holster, back to targets with 180 degree spin & draw, tac reload after 6 shots, in less than 12 seconds. Three targets, three feet apart, all hits have to be in A zone (roughly 6" x 8"). I scored 9.8 seconds with one miss, then 11.6 clean.

So, are these parameters reasonable for a level 1 class, or do you think its more suited to a level 2 tactical pistol course?

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After a 3 hour course? Are you joking?

No one who doesn't have some prior experience is going to come close to those after just three hours of instruction. Ask the guys teaching this how long it took them to get that level. If they say "three hours," well . . .

After three hours, if someone can safely draw and actually hit the center of the target (consistently), then safely reholster, I'd be happy. Putting a time limit on brand new shooters (which they still are after 3 hours) is not a great idea.

I would agree, those standards are not Level 1 standards, they are way too demanding. They are intermediate to advanced standards.

I wouldn't usually judge a company or their guys by their website unless it's blatantly ridiculous. Their site seems ok except I find it a bit busy.

If these guys are local wait until you meet someone who has taken one of their classes and ask how it was. Also talk to them and get a feel. You'd be surprised how much you can learn by just listening to some guys talk and the way they carry themselves.

R.

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Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

That site has my BS detecting antenna twitching for some reason.

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I just got it confirmed from someone who would know that these cats are legit.

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Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

I just got it confirmed from someone who would know that these cats are legit.

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OP, again.

I can't confirm their creds, but I can attest that the training I received was also legit. Spectacular, in fact. I just thought the testing standards were a little high. They've since informed me that they are re-structuring the course to two days and will have a tiered system for final testing. They've invited my class back to run the course free of charge. I will be there will bells on and my P30ls. Class act, imo.

These guys are new to the scene and took over a range that was horribly stigmatized by the prior ownership. They are still learning the ropes of running a civi range and curriculum, so I'm cutting them some slack on their website and hard-sell marketing efforts.

Pass/Fail to what end? You aren't working toward a certification unless your employing agency is sending you there as part of required ongoing training to maintain a certification or license.

If it is Joe Blow Citizen, like me, I'm not sure the pass/fail component would hold much water. I know I could do better, which is why I would be at the class. I'd rather learn and have them give me particular skills to work on that I could practice at home or on the range. The benchmarks you listed would be hard for me to reach; giving them to me as a standard to work towards is much more helpful. Telling me I failed doesn't really tell me much; however, telling me what goals and standards of proficiency I should be able to reach by the next class, well, now I have a realistic view of my skills and where I need to be. That seems more reasonable.

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Originally Posted by SMC Nubby

Pass/Fail to what end? You aren't working toward a certification unless your employing agency is sending you there as part of required ongoing training to maintain a certification or license.

If it is Joe Blow Citizen, like me, I'm not sure the pass/fail component would hold much water. I know I could do better, which is why I would be at the class. I'd rather learn and have them give me particular skills to work on that I could practice at home or on the range. The benchmarks you listed would be hard for me to reach; giving them to me as a standard to work towards is much more helpful. Telling me I failed doesn't really tell me much; however, telling me what goals and standards of proficiency I should be able to reach by the next class, well, now I have a realistic view of my skills and where I need to be. That seems more reasonable.

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Good way to put it.

I once worked (shortly) with a training company that was looking into implementing a pass/fail system. I told him somewhat the same thing SMC said. It does nothing for the student not with a company.
But then again that ass clown I was working with was more worried about looking like he was running a BUDS course than true weapons training. Needless to say I was gone pretty quickly.

R.

Great to hear that more good people are offering courses and I hope it works well for them. I am sure that running a civilian range has many of its own challenges that I would not be completely familiar with either. :)

When I hear Tactical Pistol 1, I am guessing that they have basic pistol courses, or are they only addressing experienced shooters? I am also guessing that you must pass the Tactical Pistol 1 standard to be able to move on to Tactical Pistol 2?

Even for experienced shooters moving on to tactical based or combat based shooting 3 hours is definitely not long enough. Also as has been described I would consider the standards to be to difficult for what I would consider the completion of even a one day (8 hour) Tactical Pistol 1 course. Even a couple of days (24 hours) these standards would still be pushing it. As mentioned we are talking people who may have only recently progressing into being an intermediate shooter.

Again good to see them handling business and trying to work things out!

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Originally Posted by SMC Nubby

Pass/Fail to what end? You aren't working toward a certification unless your employing agency is sending you there as part of required ongoing training to maintain a certification or license.

If it is Joe Blow Citizen, like me, I'm not sure the pass/fail component would hold much water. I know I could do better, which is why I would be at the class. I'd rather learn and have them give me particular skills to work on that I could practice at home or on the range. The benchmarks you listed would be hard for me to reach; giving them to me as a standard to work towards is much more helpful. Telling me I failed doesn't really tell me much; however, telling me what goals and standards of proficiency I should be able to reach by the next class, well, now I have a realistic view of my skills and where I need to be. That seems more reasonable.

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I agree, and my feedback to the instructor echoed these points. The level of instruction was superb, and I left with lots of things to work on. It appears that the course will no longer be pass/fail, but will classify graduates based on times. The standards listed in the original post will be for advanced status. They are trying to implement a ranking system to classify students and allow bragging rights for those who finish at the top level. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

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Originally Posted by Surf

Great to hear that more good people are offering courses and I hope it works well for them. I am sure that running a civilian range has many of its own challenges that I would not be completely familiar with either. :)

When I hear Tactical Pistol 1, I am guessing that they have basic pistol courses, or are they only addressing experienced shooters? I am also guessing that you must pass the Tactical Pistol 1 standard to be able to move on to Tactical Pistol 2?

Even for experienced shooters moving on to tactical based or combat based shooting 3 hours is definitely not long enough. Also as has been described I would consider the standards to be to difficult for what I would consider the completion of even a one day (8 hour) Tactical Pistol 1 course. Even a couple of days (24 hours) these standards would still be pushing it. As mentioned we are talking people who may have only recently progressing into being an intermediate shooter.

Again good to see them handling business and trying to work things out!

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I think their original vision was a pass/fail system where shooters strive to complete Level II for serious bragging rights. I'm not sure how that would fly with civilians who are used to getting a trophy just for showing up. It appears that that idea has been shelved, and I applaud them for their flexibility. They really are a great group, and I thoroughly enjoyed the course. Watching these guys run through drills at full tilt is a real eye opener compared to the typical NRA instructor.