Generally the steel plates will not stop M193 from a 20" barrel or other lightweight, high speed 5.56 mm loads.
No clue what is up with DT.
Generally the steel plates will not stop M193 from a 20" barrel or other lightweight, high speed 5.56 mm loads.
No clue what is up with DT.
Doc,Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
Any comment on my question last page?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironman8
We have not tested an VS plates--they are not too common out here on the west coast. Should someone want to supply some plates, we would be happy to do a test.
This thread got forwarded to me as a concern so I want to accept some responsibility here. It appears as I'm giving too much information which is causing a little conflict. So I'm sorry for that, I'll keep the speed down from here on out as to not mislead anyone on the protection guarantee.
The error here is caused buy "RATING" vs. "INDIVIDUAL TESTING" - yes, BIG DIFFERENCE. These plates are Rated level III stand alone by the NIJ ratings. I've spoken about some amazing abilities that me and a group of shooters from the NES forum have experienced with these plates and we were all amazed, most of us are military members too. I was once working for a major gunlock company and we were in the process of designing rifle targets and came across one of these plates and used it as our primary target.
I welded a tab to the back and we had a green tip and shot it at 15 ft with a 855 round. I thought it would zip right through it and, much to my amazement, it barely put a nick in it. So, at this point, we thought that we found our steel seeing as AR500 left a crater with every shot. Tell me that you're not amazed by that for a level III.... This is achieved through a special "annealing" process. You'd have to study the iron/carbon diagram for years to truly understand this. It has a lot to do with the atomic alignment and 'freezing' them in a particular order to achieve special properties.
During this time, we were getting some pointers form Kyle Lamb and he sent us info on his 9 hole drill so we made up the wall and we trained all summer long while testing this steel. Usually we had about 8 shooters going through about 5 mags a piece about every other week (do the math, that's a lot of ammo!) We shot mostly standard M193 and M855 that we got in lots of 1,000 from the Barn Store up here in NH, with a couple of .308 shooters. Over time the plate bent but never penetrated once. I had to re-weld the tab on the back several times after all of the bending but nothing went through. We used an SBR and mostly standard length AR 15's from all major manufacturers.
Clarification - Now I know that these aren't the official testing standards for rating these plates. This was more of an "endurance test" for the "design intent". I'm perfectly aware the the NIJ standards use certain weapon configurations, ranges, environmental conditions, etc., etc.,.... but to tell people what you have "experienced" vs what the "rating" actually is, is worth mentioning as long as all of the information is clear and that's my purpose for writing this so that nobody gets mixed information.
We recently did a shoot over at Samson Arms in Keene back in January with these too just because we were working on experimenting to stop the spalling. Here's what we shot it with and the results:
Test Table
Target Round Angle Distance Result Picture
Control 5.56 M193 90 25 M No Penetration, all spalling 8-13
Control 5.56 M193 75 25 M No Penetration, all spalling 14-15
Control 5.56 M193 75 15 ft No Penetration, all spalling 16-17
Test 5.56 M193 90 15 ft No Penetration, some spalling 18-25
Test 5.56 M193 90 25 M No Penetration 26-30
Control 30.06 90 25 M Penetrated None Needed
Control 5.56 M855 90 25 M No Penetration 31
Control 5.56 M995ap 90 25 M No Penetration 32
Control 308 150gr fmj 90 25 M No Penetration 33, 34
Control 308 steel core 90 25 M No Penetraion 35
Control Slap Round M948 90 25 M Penetrated 36
Test 9mm fmj 90 15 ft No Pentration, Minimal Spalling None
Test 9m fm 90 15 ft No Pentration, Minimal Spalling None
Test .45 acp fmj 90 15 ft No Pentration, Minimal Spalling None
And 'yes' I have pictures too. Now, again, I know that these aren't official test results but they are what we shot them with and these are our official results. These results don't have a bias or friends, they are what they are.
If you need protection form an M193 round out of a 20" barrel, then 'yes' you need a level IV plate to guarantee safety but tell me that this is even absolute...
As for the Davies and the Zylon thing. Looking into body armor history and the whole Zylon thingy... There were two failures with Zylon where it should have protected the officers that died. This happened BEFORE the newer NIJ testing with the waterproof covering. I'll bet the same thing would have happened to any ballistic material if it were wet. What happens to nylon rope when it gets wet and you reel it up wet then it drys? It get's stuck on the reel, right? This happens when all polymer filaments get wet, they expand and shrink again when they dry.
During the re-testing of Zylon, they were never able to replicate the 9mm penetrating the vest again. I'll bet Zylon is just as safe as any other ballistic material when applied correctly and made to meet the current NIJ standard for waterproofness. This is why, after those two incidents the NIJ started this particular standard and gave it a "life". They aren't much different from the Tombstone Agency known as the FAA because the wait for something that they know if going to happen before doing something about it. Also, this is why I ask if any of these ratings are absolute...
Of course this wasn't good enough for 'the people' because, psychologically, we have to have something to blame, something to point our fingers at and say that its 'THAT'S FAULT' so that we will have something to burn. So Zylon it was. In my opinion, don't get your Twaron, Kevlar, Artec, Spectra-Shield, Nomex or Dyneema wet and get shot at either or they will be the next to burn.
One thing that I'll say about the Davies is that their life work is now responsible for saving more than 3,000 lives now and I honor them more than anyone that I've ever met in my whole life. I'm sure that you can find 3,000 families that would agree with me.
I'd never tried it, but I would give it VS or HMW a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by DocGKR
Thread is 9 years old...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Alexandra