"I came here, where freedom is being defended, to serve it, and to live or die for it

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Originally Posted by Ned Christiansen

Well, I was referring more to how people are so quick to scoff at every single individual French soldier and automatically and offhandedly brand him a coward. That ain't right

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It's easy to make jokes until you think about the French Foreign Legion. Then you have to come back to reality. And as much as we are sometimes astonished at the capitulation to the Germans, you really only have to think about what the Germans did to Holland when they didn't surrender fast enough to understand the concern. Despite his artistic values, Hitler was absolutely ready to turn Paris into rubble simply to demonstrate his willingness to destroy anything and everything that didn't bend to his will. I would wager while he toured Paris that he was slightly annoyed that he didn't get the opportunity to burn it all down. He considered the British to be racial equals and was frustrated they went to war with him, but that didn't stop him from bombing London or making invasion plans. By contrast he disliked the French and was hoping to repay a debt in a way that would make them remember.

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Originally Posted by Ned Christiansen

Well, I was referring more to how people are so quick to scoff at every single individual French soldier and automatically and offhandedly brand him a coward. That ain't right

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Right there with you. I've long admired the military history of the French. French soldiers are every bit as tough, ferocious, and patriotic as American soldiers. Anyone who knows anything about World War 1 will agree. World War 2 was a catastrophe of leadership and supply, and a brilliant enemy attack led by men who allowed initiative at a division level (not the case for the French) - it had nothing to do with French soldiers' abilities.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

If it helps, I think the one French PM with the supermodel wife dramatically improved US / French relations. Also think of Paris like NY, it's easy to dislike people from the "big city who think they are superior", but just as we might disdain the NY mindset, we know it's not really representative of the US and on 9-11 any NY resentment vanished, so even with idiots like Bloomburg running things it's not really genuine hate.

And if you happen to meet Norman French who grow up overlooking fields of white crosses, they remember why we are close allies. So even in France, it's a regional thing.

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I spent several months in France. Paris is exactly like New York - the residents are general nihilists who have even greater disdain for tourists or anyone not living there. The French people outside of Paris are amazing. They were some of the most hospitable people I've ever met and it wasn't uncommon to get into discussions about the world wars and to hear how grateful they still are for our help. DeGaulle was a POS - I wish more people would separate their feelings that result from his policy decisions and their experiences in Paris from the rest of the country/people. I certainly wouldn't want anyone to judge the U.S. based on their experience in NYC or the actions of certain presidents.

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Originally Posted by SteyrAUG

Yep. People try and make the "illegals" issue a "race" issue, as a former South Florida resident I can tell you that's bullshit. Want to see a real American? Talk to someone who "escaped" from Cuba and communism. They will work their ass off and often have an "earned" unfair advantage. They will work a shit job of 5 years then take every dime they saved and risk it on a small business and then put their entire life into making it work.

I knew some guys who had small grocery stores, sandwich shops or cafes that truly felt they had been given EVERYTHING simply because they had the means to provide for themselves, their families and a handful of luxury items like a couple used cars. I used to not completely understand how they could take such pride in modest businesses (because I was a teenage kid who didn't get it) but the food was typically amazing and they were completely grateful that I dragged my stupid ass to their place for a medianoche and a cafe con leche and they remembered me when I would return again.

Of course the Mariel boatlift brought thousands of undesirables when Castro emptied his jails, mental asylums and other institutions and forced them onto boats of people who thought they were only picking up their relatives.

But we didn't harbor any negative views about the cubans we grew up with, they were just another kind of Floridian and honestly sometimes better than some who were born here. And there wouldn't be any resentment towards Mexicans if they 1. Came here legally and 2. Lived a better standard of existence than what they left behind. I understand poor is poor and it's hard to fix poor when you are poor, but you left your a reason. If you are still gonna piss on the side of your house, you could have stayed in Mexico and done that.

And even Mexico isn't really the problem, come here legally, do things the way everyone else here has to do them...and if you open a restaurant and the food is good, I'll be a regular trying to help you succeed. I don't mean to over simplify what are sometimes complex situations, but sometimes it really is that easy.

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I agree whole-heartedly with your post, but there is a huge issue that is largely unknown to those who don't have personal experience with it, and that's the laughably convoluted process required to become a citizen. On paper, it looks so straight forward.

There are some very real problems with our naturalization system that basically gets a person who aims to be a citizen entangled what can become a years-long dance with endless bureaucracy. Imagine if you or I had to go to deal with the DMV every few weeks or months for a few years, them constantly asking for the same paperwork, or asking you to resubmit due to an error on your/their end, having you wait in limbo for ages over the most trivial of things. Our naturalization system is a complete joke. None of that is to mention the thousands of dollars in wasted fees, missed wages due to the endless appointments, etc.

But neither major party seems inclined to make any changes for the better in the immigration system.

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Originally Posted by ThreeFingerPete

I agree whole-heartedly with your post, but there is a huge issue that is largely unknown to those who don't have personal experience with it, and that's the laughably convoluted process required to become a citizen. On paper, it looks so straight forward.

There are some very real problems with our naturalization system that basically gets a person who aims to be a citizen entangled what can become a years-long dance with endless bureaucracy. Imagine if you or I had to go to deal with the DMV every few weeks or months for a few years, them constantly asking for the same paperwork, or asking you to resubmit due to an error on your/their end, having you wait in limbo for ages over the most trivial of things. Our naturalization system is a complete joke. None of that is to mention the thousands of dollars in wasted fees, missed wages due to the endless appointments, etc.

But neither major party seems inclined to make any changes for the better in the immigration system.

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When was the last time you had to deal with this? Back in the day it was a convoluted process but today it's been fairly well streamlined, unless there is some kind of an issue related to that individual.

I did mine in 08 and it was pretty straight forward and under a year. Mail out the application and money and wait for a letter to get fingerprinted. A month or two later get that letter and go do the fingerprints. Wait for the next letter for something else I forget. Each letter came within 60 days. The last step was interview where you have a conversation with the person conducting the interview and answer 10 questions related to basic US knowledge. After that they schedule a swearing in ceremony. If I'm not mistaken all in all it took me from mailing out the application to the ceremony about 8 months and that includes waiting for the ceremony. They conduct one every X amount of time and mine fell on July 4th so I had to wait longer for them to get more people for a large ceremony held in a huge auditorium. If it wasn't for that I would have been sworn in May or June

I have a coworker who has been working through the near-endless process for 7-8 years, a handful more that just completed their naturalization within the last 3-4 years. All of those mentioned, have been in the US legally for 20+ years.

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Originally Posted by ThreeFingerPete

I have a coworker who has been working through the near-endless process for 7-8 years, a handful more that just completed their naturalization within the last 3-4 years. All of those mentioned, have been in the US legally for 20+ years.

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One person trying for 7-8 years? If I understood that right there is a serious issue somewhere.

I've been here since 88. My mom applied after I turned 18 so I had to do my own. I pushed it to the back burner for a while until 2nd half of 07 when I finally applied.

My dad had issues originally, that were of his own doing, and then he put it off for at least a decade but after he finally got with the program it took him maybe 6 months. This was 3 or 4 years ago.

All my friends who did theirs in the last 15 years have all been less than a year from start to finish, their parents included.

I've even known people who were denied at the interview, one person twice denied, but applied later and got it. However, each application took less than a year from start to interview

Fair enough. Obviously it’s not the same for everyone, but the reality is that for many, it takes ages.

The dudes I know that are having these issues are squared away dudes that have no problems navigating the rest of life, but their luck with the naturalization process definitely left a lot to be desired.

Maybe it is locale A vs. locale B?

Has (or can) your friend contact a different office?

Based on what I can gather, once you start the process, they steer the ship. So if they **** something up and you have to resubmit paperwork, etc, you’re just on the hook. Same with appeals, best I can tell. I’d love to know more about the “Why” it takes so long when it goes wrong.

I only knew about him because of a fort named after him.